3 killed, 8 injured in Michigan High School Shooting

[Guest Lobo]

Oakland County, MI Show 'N Tell just be different up there 'n shit. 

[BrazilHorn 6,624]

Crazy that this dad bought this handgun on Black Friday this year and a couple of days later his kid shoots a school up with it.

Just nuts.

[immortal13 4,059]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You're a grizzly?

Hilarious bro. After you're done emptying the clip, a grizzly will likely shove that .45 up your ass before he rips your head off. But please go fuck around and find out 

[Anastasis 23,480]

14 minutes ago, BrazilHorn said:

Crazy that this dad bought this handgun on Black Friday this year and a couple of days later his kid shoots a school up with it.

Just nuts.

Yeah, and with the kid posting all about "his" new gun on social, sure seems like quite a coincidence.

[Anastasis 23,480]

12 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Hilarious bro. After you're done emptying the clip, a grizzly will likely shove that .45 up your ass before he rips your head off. But please go fuck around and find out 

I think that that was just his way of making a coded pass at you?

[Brisketexan 105,180]

12 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Hilarious bro. After you're done emptying the clip, a grizzly will likely shove that .45 up your ass before he rips your head off. But please go fuck around and find out 

I didn't say I would go looking to start shit with a Grizzly.  But putting several high-energy large caliber rounds into a bear is one of the proven ways to fend off an attack.  I mean, I could do bigger than a .45, I guess...

 

But hell, maybe you even made my point even more strongly.  Fundamentally, in the vast majority of cases, having a loaded firearm nearby does not actually make you safer, but it does increase the risk of an unintended incident involving that firearm.

Our obsession with the idea that whatever the problem, having a gun in your hand is a good idea, is a real freaking problem in our mentality/culture.

 

[Brisketexan 105,180]

25 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

At this very moment 4 of the top threads in this forum:

School shooting

Threats of a school shooting

Cops shooting and killing a dude in a scooter

Guy shooting and killing another guy trying to pick up his kids

Great thing we got going here.

See the Far Side cartoon I posted.  No matter the problem, the solution is "shoot."  We are a messed up people right now.

[Hate 20,128]

At this very moment 4 of the top threads in this forum:
School shooting
Threats of a school shooting
Cops shooting and killing a dude in a scooter
Guy shooting and killing another guy trying to pick up his kids
Great thing we got going here.

And yet people still risk life and limb to get here so it must not be all doom and gloom. Step away from the ledge.

[Pam Cummings 9,647]

3 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Most gun safes can be breached by an appropriately motivated individual. 

OK? What is the point of this thinking though? People could just break your window to get in your house but i think every house comes with a lock on the front door.

[hookemATL 11,803]

7 minutes ago, Hate said:

And yet people still risk life and limb to get here so it must not be all doom and gloom. Step away from the ledge.

Doesn't matter, got immigrants.

[immortal13 4,059]

34 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I didn't say I would go looking to start shit with a Grizzly.  But putting several high-energy large caliber rounds into a bear is one of the proven ways to fend off an attack.  I mean, I could do bigger than a .45, I guess...

 

But hell, maybe you even made my point even more strongly.  Fundamentally, in the vast majority of cases, having a loaded firearm nearby does not actually make you safer, but it does increase the risk of an unintended incident involving that firearm.

Our obsession with the idea that whatever the problem, having a gun in your hand is a good idea, is a real freaking problem in our mentality/culture.

 

Yes you would need something bigger but please carry on with your super hot uninformed takes on guns

[Anastasis 23,480]

30 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

OK? What is the point of this thinking though? People could just break your window to get in your house but i think every house comes with a lock on the front door.

I think you are reading my post outside the context of what I was responding to.  

[Pam Cummings 9,647]

@immortal13quiet, cunt.

 

@Anastasisguess so.

[Guest Lobo]

57 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Yeah, and with the kid posting all about "his" new gun on social, sure seems like quite a coincidence.

I thought what you post about possibly committing violence with a gun on social media is no longer evidence of premeditation?  

[Brisketexan 105,180]

35 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Yes you would need something bigger but please carry on with your super hot uninformed takes on guns

Ummmmmm......I've been shooting since I was out of diapers?  I have a gun safe that is....rather full.  I was literally tinkering with one of my rifles last night.  And yes, I'm well aware that if my goal is to go kill a grizzly, I'm slinging something a lot more powerful than most any handgun round.  But considering the tradeoff of sleeping with a .45-70 rifle vs a handgun next to me, I'm going to opt for a handgun.

Wow.  Seriously, I've probably squeezed off enough rounds in my lifetime to put me in the top 2-3% of shooters, by volume, in the US.  But, I will admit that I don't own an AR variant, so I don't know EVERYTHING there is to know about every firearm.  But come on, man.   You're being absurd.

[conVINCEd 21,469]

21 minutes ago, Lobo said:

I thought what you post about possibly committing violence with a gun on social media is no longer evidence of premeditation?  

Depends on what judge you draw.

[Lerka Lerka 1,087]

1 hour ago, immortal13 said:

Hilarious bro. After you're done emptying the clip, a grizzly will likely shove that .45 up your ass before he rips your head off. But please go fuck around and find out 

The preferred nomenclature is “mag” or magazine… just a heads up for your future informed hot takes on guns. 

[Grade of D as in David 13,253]

2 hours ago, immortal13 said:

I got bad news for you, bruh

 

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

You're a grizzly?

He's definitely a bear.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Grade of D as in David
Nttawwt

[immortal13 4,059]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Ummmmmm......I've been shooting since I was out of diapers?  I have a gun safe that is....rather full.  I was literally tinkering with one of my rifles last night.  And yes, I'm well aware that if my goal is to go kill a grizzly, I'm slinging something a lot more powerful than most any handgun round.  But considering the tradeoff of sleeping with a .45-70 rifle vs a handgun next to me, I'm going to opt for a handgun.

Wow.  Seriously, I've probably squeezed off enough rounds in my lifetime to put me in the top 2-3% of shooters, by volume, in the US.  But, I will admit that I don't own an AR variant, so I don't know EVERYTHING there is to know about every firearm.  But come on, man.   You're being absurd.

Dude you're digging the hole deeper. I knew you were talking about handguns and not "hunting" grizzly bears. So one more time since you seem a little slow today and seem intent on arguing the point...a 45 ACP is way too weak to try to protect yourself against a grizzly bear. A .44 mag is considered minimum or a .454 Casull would be a good choice. But again FAAFA bro

[immortal13 4,059]

1 hour ago, Lerka Lerka said:

The preferred nomenclature is “mag” or magazine… just a heads up for your future informed hot takes

I specifically used the term "clip" so Brisket would know what I was talking about.....and/or so you could point it out and look super smart. 

[mchookem 16,342]

ok, crossposting from the Crockett HS thread as this one seems to be getting more traffic...

so with all these reports in TX, and additional reports from other schools in MI (closing out of precaution, 'rumors'...) and the added variable of internet/social media connectivity...i wonder if there's some reddit or 4chan/8chan (whatever) group of angry disaffected teens where these are being coordinated?

just seems to be a lot in just a couple of days, including the MI shooter that was 'successful'...

or maybe these 'threats' happen all the time and we never hear about it, i.e., they are 'handled', and the only reason we're hearing about these is b/c one was recently 'successful'...

or maybe it's just hysterical rumors.

Occam's Razor says it's just ^that. hope so b/c while that's sad it's not nearly as sad as the first two options. 😐  

 

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

4 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Dude you're digging the hole deeper. I knew you were talking about handguns and not "hunting" grizzly bears. So one more time since you seem a little slow today and seem intent on arguing the point...a 45 ACP is way too weak to try to protect yourself against a grizzly bear. A .44 mag is considered minimum or a .454 Casull would be a good choice. But again FAAFA bro

You better get a kill shot on the first round with the casull cause that kick is gonna fuck with your aiming 

[956 Worldwide 34,738]

Quote

Oakland County prosecutor Karen McDonald said Crumbley, who was arraigned late Wednesday afternoon via video with his parents on the line, has been charged as an adult with one count of terrorism, four counts of first-degree murder, seven counts of assault with intent to murder, and 12 counts of possession of a firearm. More charges may be added later, she said.

Make it easy for kids to get their hands on guns. Charge them as an adult when they use them. How’s this shit working out for us?

We actually prefer vengeance to keeping our kids alive.

[52-80 19,205]

21 minutes ago, mchookem said:

so with all these reports in TX, and additional reports from other schools in MI (closing out of precaution, 'rumors'...) and the added variable of internet/social media connectivity...i wonder if there's some reddit or 4chan/8chan (whatever) group of angry disaffected teens where these are being coordinated?

i know of at least one here

[immortal13 4,059]

21 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

You better get a kill shot on the first round with the casull cause that kick is gonna fuck with your aiming 

True, but it's also likely you're only going to get one shot. Bear spray is actually your best bet on a charging grizzly bear. I've done some fly fishing in Alaska in bear territory and nobody carried anything smaller than a .44 mag. More than a few times I heard locals joke about carrying a 45...that instead of shooting, you might as well just hand it to the bear because he's going to take it and shove it up your ass either way. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by immortal13

[Anastasis 23,480]

13 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

We actually prefer vengeance to keeping our kids alive.

This is silly. 

[956 Worldwide 34,738]

4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

This is silly. 

Fact: We charge minors as adults at a rate far exceeding the rest of the industrialized world

Fact: We have has about 57 times more school shootings that the rest of the G7 COMBINED in ten years

I think it’s more silly to pretend otherwise, because we are certainly going great guns to get the results expected. 

[Willfully Horn 8,040]

10 hours ago, 52-80 said:

A couple of decades in the war on drugs should tell ya the hard line approach won't work.  What we're seeing and saying with the spike in x_fentanyl death (as compared to, e.g. heroin) is not that the drug exists, but that it's way too easy to access.

Don't permit direct private sales at gun shows.  Increase taxes on firearms.  Shootings don't occur because of mishandling of firearms and gun safety.  Mandating training (and other licensing) as a purchase requirement is more about an artificial hurdle in $ and time to restrict the "easy supply" to guns.  

It's unfair.  It's monetarily regressive.  But guns not an absolute necessity anyway, they're a hobby.  It won't eliminate guns and gun-involved crimes.  But it'll cut down kneejerk shootings from the, err, negligent members of society who happened to have a used glock they bought at a whim for $300 at last year's gun show.

**

Or we can get a bunch of screeching from idealogues and politic-LARPERS and nothing will ever happen because nobody sane can stand to listen to them

Mishandling a weapon took the life of a young child this very week. No arrest. Family friend ‘accidentally’ discharged the firearm.  Gun safety negligence led to this very thread’s topic.

As for serious training, take your qualms to the Swiss. They manage to arm damn near every citizen and do not have the lunacy we endure. I attribute that to their training, as well as their culture.

More lunacy from this week, at an HEB, in the spoiler.

Spoiler

https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Texas-woman-arrested-pulling-a-gun-HEB-parking-16665853.php?utm_campaign=CMS Sharing Tools (Premium)&utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral

.

Edited to spell out that mishandling a weapon isn’t an accident, it is negligence.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Willfully Horn

[Guest Lobo]

21 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Fact: We charge minors as adults at a rate far exceeding the rest of the industrialized world

Fact: We have has about 57 times more school shootings that the rest of the G7 COMBINED in ten years

I think it’s more silly to pretend otherwise, because we are certainly going great guns to get the results expected. 

Well the reason we have 57x more school shootings than the rest of the G7 combined is not because we have more guns, it's because we have 57x more mentally ill people looking to do harm to schoolchildren than the G7 combined.  No wait, it's because our schools are built 57x less safely than the G7 schools combined (Italy is known for making three things really well-suits, cars, and middle schools).  Wait, it must be because we have 57x fewer school security officers than the rest of the G7 combined.  That can't be right, many of those countries don't have any at all.  Dammit, there must be some variable we're not considering! 

How can we, the greatest nation in the world, be the only one to have this problem?  There has to be something/someone to blame.  From Reagan to Clinton, from Bush to Obama, from Trump to Biden, these events seem to rise in direct correlation with the increase of something else besides population.  We have the most fortress-esque schools on Earth, the most security guards, we drill the most for active shooter events with our little ones, we have the same social media platforms and video games as they do, etc.  They certainly are more proactive and effective with their treatment of mental illness in people, so that's certainly a factor.  But I can't help wonder if there's another factor at play here that causes us to have so many more than any other place on Earth.  

GOT IT! 

U.S. doesn't have enough school prayer!  I heard on my church facebook page that Germany and Canada makes their kids spend 2 hours a day at school in prayer.  Yep, that must be the reason.  Whew, on to the next problem.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Lobo

[52-80 19,205]

4 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

Mishandling a weapon took the life of a young child this very week. No arrest. Family friend ‘accidentally’ discharged the firearm.  Gun safety negligence led to this very thread’s topic.

As for serious training, take your qualms to the Swiss. They manage to arm damn near every citizen and do not have the lunacy we endure. I attribute that to their training, as well as their culture.

Is accidental discharge a statistically significant enough problem that we're trying to solve here?  Or school shootings and other petty violent spats?

What led to to this thread wasn't negligence that could be overcome with training -- not from all the reports about the shooter's parents/family so far.  The point of something like mandatory safety class is that it would present enough of a burden in money, commitment, and time (say, a 5-day $2000 class) that may have prevented this family from acquiring a gun in the first place.

Think of it (and similar roadblocks) as instituting a new lower speed limit.  It doesn't prevent speed demons from racing.  It won't encourage granny to drive any different than before.  But it's effective enough on everyone else to yield a net lower average speed.

 **

The Swiss example proves exactly that the guns aren't the sole problem.  Culture is a huge one, as is economics.  But that's not something we're gonna flip the US on overnight....or ever.

[CooterBrown 18,015]

Switzerland isn’t a good comparison. The Swiss have guns but no ammo in private hands. All the ammo is kept at the police stations for distribution if the militia gets called up.

[Cody2422 279]

if we are talking about banning anything, start with social media.
 

that would solve most of America’s problems

[Willfully Horn 8,040]

4 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Is accidental discharge a statistically significant enough problem that we're trying to solve here?  Or school shootings and other petty violent spats?

What led to to this thread wasn't negligence that could be overcome with training -- not from all the reports about the shooter's parents/family so far.  The point of something like mandatory safety class is that it would present enough of a burden in money, commitment, and time (say, a 5-day $2000 class) that may have prevented this family from acquiring a gun in the first place.

Think of it (and similar roadblocks) as instituting a new lower speed limit.  It doesn't prevent speed demons from racing.  It won't encourage granny to drive any different than before.  But it's effective enough on everyone else to yield a net lower average speed.

 **

The Swiss example proves exactly that the guns aren't the sole problem.  Culture is a huge one, as is economics.  But that's not something we're gonna flip the US on overnight....or ever.

My wife’s uncle was a Marine drill seargant, fought at the Chosin, and taught Joan Baez to fire a handgun. I am talking about changing culture, and getting the military into the training of civilian militia members (in keeping with the second amendment) ought be a burden we all share in funding.

I am suggesting wholesale changes in our gun culture, in accordance with our stated rights. It is the weeklong joke you describe that I want to erase. Guns are not a joke. Insisting on viewing guns through the lens of humor is part of our nation’s problem.

[Brisketexan 105,180]

40 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

True, but it's also likely you're only going to get one shot. Bear spray is actually your best bet on a charging grizzly bear. I've done some fly fishing in Alaska in bear territory and nobody carried anything smaller than a .44 mag. More than a few times I heard locals joke about carrying a 45...that instead of shooting, you might as well just hand it to the bear because he's going to take it and shove it up your ass either way. 

Well, then, I sure wouldn't carry a .45.

Because I'd rather get eaten by a bear than sodomized by one.

FTR, on the few occasions I've been in big bear country, we've carried bear bells and bear spray, as that's what the locals did.

And I don't even own a .45 -- it's really the only gun left that I'd like to own but don't yet have.  Would love a nice 1911.

[Brisketexan 105,180]

1 minute ago, Willfully Horn said:

My wife’s uncle was a Marine drill seargant, fought at the Chosin, and taught Joan Baez to fire a handgun. I am talking about changing culture, and getting the military into the training of civilian militia members (in keeping with the second amendment) ought be a burden we all share in funding.

I am suggesting wholesale changes in our gun culture, in accordance with our stated rights. It is the weeklong joke you describe that I want to erase. Guns are not a joke. Insisting on viewing guns through the lens of humor is part of our nation’s problem.

The problem isn't how we use guns.

It's that we WANT to.  That's the problem.

We should WANT to do everything we can to never, ever use a gun against another human being.  Yet a huge chunk of us defaults to it as the go-to solution, and/or actively wishes and hopes for a chance to do so, and takes actions that make it much more likely to happen.

Making it more likely, WANTING to use a firearm, is our problem.  We should choose differently -- we need to WANT to make that choice.

 

[Anastasis 23,480]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The problem isn't how we use guns.

It's that we WANT to.  That's the problem.

We should WANT to do everything we can to never, ever use a gun against another human being.  Yet a huge chunk of us defaults to it as the go-to solution, and/or actively wishes and hopes for a chance to do so, and takes actions that make it much more likely to happen.

Making it more likely, WANTING to use a firearm, is our problem.  We should choose differently -- we need to WANT to make that choice.

 

How many people do you know IRL that fit this profile?

[Hate 20,128]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The problem isn't how we use guns.

It's that we WANT to.  That's the problem.

We should WANT to do everything we can to never, ever use a gun against another human being.  Yet a huge chunk of us defaults to it as the go-to solution, and/or actively wishes and hopes for a chance to do so, and takes actions that make it much more likely to happen.

Making it more likely, WANTING to use a firearm, is our problem.  We should choose differently -- we need to WANT to make that choice.

 

 

A huge chunk?  I would say a small subset, but it is more than it should be.

[Willfully Horn 8,040]

Guns are a drug?

I can see more of 52’s point now, though I won’t give up the idea that sober training will help disabuse people of the notion that getting high on shooting someone is okay.

[Brisketexan 105,180]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

How many people do you know IRL that fit this profile?

It doesn't take that many.  That's the problem.  And to be clear, it's cross-cultural, cross-racial, etc.  When I posted this thought before, I made a reference to "Friday" -- it was a dilemma in that movie, and that was quite a few years ago.  Have a beef with someone?  Put holes in him.....instead of just, you know, arguing or fighting.  Maybe it's because he didn't show you enough respect, or you want to send a message, or what have you.

Plenty of commentary on Kyle Rittenhouse's recorded statement watching the riots and saying  “Bruh, I wish I had my fucking AR. I’d start shooting rounds at them.”  I knew guys even in college who went out and bought their first gun (usually some sort of cool-looking automatic handgun back then) and casually saying shit about how they hoped some dumbass would make a mistake and break into their place, and they'd blow him away.

We just watched a cop on video blowing away a guy.....in a fucking RASCAL.  When he had 100 other options that didn't involve "empty your fucking magazine into him from 5 feet away."

We just watched a guy come out of a house with a gun, ending up killing a guy who was there to get his kid in a custody argument.

We have kids who openly fantasize -- and occasionally, make reality -- about shooting up their schools.  Whereas even 30 years ago, a shitload of us had firearms in our car on school property and it never even occurred to us to turn a fight into a gunfight.

As a culture, we think about and actually use firearms to "solve" a shitload of issues, often issues of our own making, way more than other developed nations.   Yeah, it's a fucking problem.

[52-80 19,205]

17 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

My wife’s uncle was a Marine drill seargant, fought at the Chosin, and taught Joan Baez to fire a handgun. I am talking about changing culture, and getting the military into the training of civilian militia members (in keeping with the second amendment) ought be a burden we all share in funding.

I am suggesting wholesale changes in our gun culture, in accordance with our stated rights. It is the weeklong joke you describe that I want to erase. Guns are not a joke. Insisting on viewing guns through the lens of humor is part of our nation’s problem.

How does your Marine drill sergeant uncle training people how to properly respect and operate a firearm going to stop: a gangbanger; a drug turf war; Kyle Rittenhouse's friend buying a gun on his behalf; the TX guy blasting his girlfriend's ex-husband; or this aggrieved kid shooting up his school?

Was the problem actually that these people didn't realize that guns were dangerous?  TX guy thinking shooting at dude's foot was a good joke?  They were not aware of the gravity of their actions?

That's a bit way too idealistic and farfetched, IMO

 

[Guest Lobo]

Ah yes, the militia to keep us free from government oppression.  How's their training going again?  Last attempt to keep us free from government oppression, a few "militia" folks got themselves dead at the U.S. Capitol.  And I'm still laughing about it.  

Only people the "militia" seem to be good at killing aren't oppressive communist regimes but rather pedophiles, schoolchildren, and Wal-Mart shoppers.  So unless we get invaded by NAMBLA or a youth marching band competition that accidentally crossed our borders...our "well-armed citizenry" doesn't appear to be doing jack fucking shit except killing innocent people for little to no reason.  

How many Americans died last year at the hands of a tyrannical government or deadly home invasion?  Probably 400 nationwide?  

How many Americans died last year needlessly due to gun violence committed by another citizen or themselves?  Probably 40,000 nationwide?  

Maybe one is a slightly larger concern than the other?  

But I get it, people are trying to get into your house at night and steal your family and kill you, and then the next night you gotta fight off government agents coming to take your guns and install a new government, and then the next night it's illegal immigrants coming to steal your belongings and rape your women, and then...if you make it through all that...next night is BEAR NIGHT!  And then, the final level boss---Tyrannical Illegal Immigrant Home Invasion Bear coming to take back his Bear Arms.  Good luck, sleep tight motherfuckers.  

Edited December 2, 2021 by Lobo

[Underdog 28,754]

 

 

 

[Willfully Horn 8,040]

4 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

How does your Marine drill sergeant uncle training people how to properly respect and operate a firearm going to stop: a gangbanger; a drug turf war; Kyle Rittenhouse's friend buying a gun on his behalf; the TX guy blasting his girlfriend's ex-husband; or this aggrieved kid shooting up his school?

Was the problem actually that these people didn't realize that guns were dangerous?  TX guy thinking shooting at dude's foot was a good joke?  They were not aware of the gravity of their actions?

That's a bit way too idealistic and farfetched, IMO

 

How many of the folks you mention had the serious, deadly, fact of firearms DRILLED into their brains? Were repeatedly made to understand the consequences of taking a life?

When our society accepts labeling negligence as accident, and trusts that the questions you ask will be answered organically, as we do now, then we arrive at where we are.

[Cheeseweasel 26,438]

1 hour ago, mchookem said:

i wonder if there's some reddit or 4chan/8chan (whatever) group of angry disaffected teens where these are being coordinated?

The CR?

[52-80 19,205]

13 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

It doesn't take that many.  That's the problem.  And to be clear, it's cross-cultural, cross-racial, etc.  When I posted this thought before, I made a reference to "Friday" -- it was a dilemma in that movie, and that was quite a few years ago.  Have a beef with someone?  Put holes in him.....instead of just, you know, arguing or fighting.  Maybe it's because he didn't show you enough respect, or you want to send a message, or what have you.

Plenty of commentary on Kyle Rittenhouse's recorded statement watching the riots and saying  “Bruh, I wish I had my fucking AR. I’d start shooting rounds at them.”  I knew guys even in college who went out and bought their first gun (usually some sort of cool-looking automatic handgun back then) and casually saying shit about how they hoped some dumbass would make a mistake and break into their place, and they'd blow him away.

We just watched a cop on video blowing away a guy.....in a fucking RASCAL.  When he had 100 other options that didn't involve "empty your fucking magazine into him from 5 feet away."

We just watched a guy come out of a house with a gun, ending up killing a guy who was there to get his kid in a custody argument.

We have kids who openly fantasize -- and occasionally, make reality -- about shooting up their schools.  Whereas even 30 years ago, a shitload of us had firearms in our car on school property and it never even occurred to us to turn a fight into a gunfight.

As a culture, we think about and actually use firearms to "solve" a shitload of issues, often issues of our own making, way more than other developed nations.   Yeah, it's a fucking problem.

Yeah, it's a fucking problem.  How are you going to solve an amorphous, abstract, cultural concept?  Might as well ask people to switch their religion.  Even Iran can't impose a wholesale mindset change.

Economic tools and policies are what we have to create incentives and disincentives.  Want people to buy fewer gas-guzzling V8s?  smoke fewer cigarettes?  make more babies? buy a house?  20-40M annual NEW gun sales is a big number.  Guns are a luxury.  Nobody will burn the white house for making it economically difficult to buy a new one.

[52-80 19,205]

8 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

How many of the folks you mention had the serious, deadly, fact of firearms DRILLED into their brains? Were repeatedly made to understand the consequences of taking a life?

You're telling me these people didn't understand the serious and deathly consequence of firing a gun?  That a bootcamp regiment would have changed their intent?

All these things happened because a marriage of intent to kill + opportunity to kill.  Hard to change the former.  Much easier to change the latter.  (And accepting you'll never fully eliminate either)

[Brisketexan 105,180]

8 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Yeah, it's a fucking problem.  How are you going to solve an amorphous, abstract, cultural concept?  Might as well ask people to switch their religion.  Even Iran can't impose a wholesale mindset change.

Economic tools and policies are what we have to create incentives and disincentives.  Want people to buy fewer gas-guzzling V8s?  smoke fewer cigarettes?  make more babies? buy a house?  20-40M annual NEW gun sales is a big number.  Guns are a luxury.  Nobody will burn the white house for making it economically difficult to buy a new one.

It sure isn't an easy fix.

But if we start by realizing that there was some sort of shift/tipping point, probably between 20-40 years ago, give or take, we can come up with some ideas of where it came from and why it happened.  And when we do that, we can then come up with some ideas of how to try to turn the ship.  It's a big, slow-ass ship.  There can't and won't be any overnight solution.

Economic tools may be part of the solution -- it's a complex problem, so surely the right path will involve multiple elements as well.  I say put 'em all on the table.  But we really should try to figure out what the real root cause is.  It's not just "there are more guns around," as just one example.  We WANTED there to be more guns around -- we created the demand and acquired them.  What broke in our brains that made the kids who 30 years ago had a gun in their car at school and it never even occurred to them to use it to kill someone, vs. kids who now use a gun to act out their grievances?

[Deej 76,858]

1 hour ago, immortal13 said:

True, but it's also likely you're only going to get one shot. Bear spray is actually your best bet on a charging grizzly bear. I've done some fly fishing in Alaska in bear territory and nobody carried anything smaller than a .44 mag. More than a few times I heard locals joke about carrying a 45...that instead of shooting, you might as well just hand it to the bear because he's going to take it and shove it up your ass either way. 

Maybe we need bears patrolling the school hallways.

[Brisketexan 105,180]

3 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

You're telling me these people didn't understand the serious and deathly consequence of firing a gun?  That a bootcamp regiment would have changed their intent?

All these things happened because a marriage of intent to kill + opportunity to kill.  Hard to change the former.  Much easier to change the latter.  (And accepting you'll never fully eliminate either)

You're not wrong.  But until we start to make some progress in changing our minds, we're just re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

I mean, here I am, sounding like an old fart with "morality these days!" and "the kids with their violent videogames!" (I actually don't think that videogames really cause any of this -- I do have a hypothesis that they are a symptom of our greater culture trends, though).  But unless and until we can re-prioritize a message of "using a gun is a last, last, last resort -- you want to do everything you can to avoid taking a human life, and guns are serious fucking business, not toys and props," we're pissing in the wind.

[TXSG8R 3,362]

1 hour ago, CooterBrown said:

Switzerland isn’t a good comparison. The Swiss have guns but no ammo in private hands. All the ammo is kept at the police stations for distribution if the militia gets called up.

Plus the guns are received after compulsory military service, so there is a training regimen tied to owning those weapons.