3 killed, 8 injured in Michigan High School Shooting

[crash_davis 23,108]

1 hour ago, C-Man said:

Wasn't taking detailed notes but it went something like this:

• Parents bought the 9mm pistol for Ethan as an early Xmas gift
• Ethan posted pics of 9mm, calling the gun his new toy or baby, something
• Ethan was caught in class looking up "ammunition" on his phone and was reported to admin by the teacher
• Emails were sent to Ethan's mother who responded to him with something like "LOL, I'm not mad but you've got to learn how not to get caught"
• Pictures drawn by Ethan were seen as well, pics of people shot with blood and the words "Help me" and "Life is Useless"
• The pictures were followed up with the laughing emoji
• Parents were summoned to the school to discuss what they'd found
• Ethan was brought out of class to the meeting
• Parents were encouraged to take him out of school and he was required to be put into counseling within 48 hours
• Parents didn't take him out of school and he went back to class
• Parents never asked where the 9mm was and did NOT search his backpack -- the gun was in the backpack the entire time
• School shooting took place that afternoon

didn't someone post upthread about the mom posting crazy 2A shit. yea, the shithead parents are examples 1 and 2 what's wrong with this fucking country. 

drown these motherfuckers in acid. fuck these pieces of shits. i'm so fucking tired of the insanity of people thinking guns are toys and symbols of how bad ass of a freedom nutjob you are.

[Dahobbs 17,534]

3 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Two parents isn’t really the issue it’s more historically most kids felt like they were gonna get an ass whipping  from their parents they probably would not do a lot of things they do today that whole philosophy is almost looked on as child abuse.

This whole line of thinking is flawed and just another version of an older generation blaming the younger generation for problems.  

First, y'all don't have any scientific or statistical analysis support You're just gut check guessing. And you don't even know if there is any association between corporal punishment and violent action by kids. Actual studies conclude it is the exact opposite relationship:

Quote

The results demonstrated that perceived parental disapproval of the use of violence was associated with more prosocial attitudes and less use of physical violence among adolescents, whereas stated parental expectations had no relation to adolescent attitudes, intentions, or use of violence. Additionally, adolescents who were more likely to engage in fighting, bullying, and victimization of others reported that their parents engaged in corporal punishment as a disciplining method. These findings suggest that perceived parental disapproval of violence may serve as a protective factor against violent behavior among adolescents. Alternatively, parental use of corporal punishment may pose a risk for violent behaviors among youth.

(https://www.apa.org/pi/prevent-violence/resources/violent-behavior

Quote

Student deaths from school shootings were examined across all 50 states according to the state’s policy on the use of corporal punishment in schools after controlling for associated differences in poverty rates and the prevalence of conservative Christian religions. There were significantly more school shooting deaths found in states allowing school corporal punishment compared with those that do not. The odds of fatal involvement in a school shooting were greatest in states permitting school corporal punishment compared with those prohibiting it (odds ratio, 2.04) or restricting it to districts serving less than half the student population (odds ratio, 1.77). Moreover, the rate of school corporal punishment was moderately correlated with the rate of fatal school shootings both across all states and within the South, the region in which endorsement of school corporal punishment is most prevalent

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ab.90020

Second, how stupid is it to think the kids going on shooting rampages that generally leave the shooter dead or in jail wouldn't have done it if they feared a whooping from dad? Seriously? "Who cares if I die or go to jail, but I really don't want dad to hit me with his belt"

Fucking moronic. 

[TXSG8R 3,362]

1 hour ago, hornbri said:

Why didn’t the school kick him out of school at that point? It seems like the pictures + the social media posting + search would have been enough to suspend. I have head of less. 

 

54 minutes ago, burntorangebongos said:

I would have insisted he get off campus with his parents right then or go to in-school suspension alone until they can make arrangements to take him. They need to treat all troubled kids like him in this manner to jolt these stupid fucking parents into understanding the seriousness of their child's issues. Their heads were so far up their asses about him, it is astoundingly shocking in hindsight. 

 

50 minutes ago, cabowabo said:

Fuck those parents. But why didn’t someone from the school search his backpack during that meeting?

 

33 minutes ago, Skipper said:

I bet there will be after this.   You are already subject to search at any time at school.   Every school should have a policy that if they see red flags, there is an immediate search of backpack, locker, etc.

A lot of the school’s responses are dictated by district policy, which varies wildly even within the same state.  I’m sure we will learn more as this goes on, but their hands may have been tied by the parents refusal to remove the kid from school. 

[burntorangebongos 10,710]

They have every right to put him in in-school suspension and keep him there until they pick him up. 

[Guest Lobo]

But what if the parents are gonna spank him with a belt after ISS?  Then the school and parents might feel really, really bad about things.  If we had more spankings, mass murder wouldn’t be so ubiquitous. 

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

57 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

This whole line of thinking is flawed and just another version of an older generation blaming the younger generation for problems.  

First, y'all don't have any scientific or statistical analysis support You're just gut check guessing. And you don't even know if there is any association between corporal punishment and violent action by kids. Actual studies conclude it is the exact opposite relationship:

(https://www.apa.org/pi/prevent-violence/resources/violent-behavior

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ab.90020

Second, how stupid is it to think the kids going on shooting rampages that generally leave the shooter dead or in jail wouldn't have done it if they feared a whooping from dad? Seriously? "Who cares if I die or go to jail, but I really don't want dad to hit me with his belt"

Fucking moronic. 

Kids typically don’t get to that sociopathic state where they go out and want to kill others when they’ve had structured, disciplined, lifestyles typically that’s why.

But why debate you cause no matter what I say you’re gonna refute it 

 

[Baboontyme 2,810]

Mind boggling. I can't believe the backpack with the gun in it was in the office with the kid, the parents and the school administrators. The kid had to be shitting bricks at that point. 

 

[Chuckie Finster 22,694]

[d2o 1,602]

The school and the parents allowing him to just go back to class after meeting about the drawings and determining that he needed psychiatric counseling is fucking infuriating.    There is no way he should have been allowed back in school.

[Beau Vine 54,219]

18 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

 Idiot got himself uninvited from our weekly Dungeons and Dragons/boardgames sessions in person

Oh, the horror...

[GringoSalado 1,651]

3 hours ago, C-Man said:

Wasn't taking detailed notes but it went something like this:

• Parents bought the 9mm pistol for Ethan as an early Xmas gift
• Ethan posted pics of 9mm, calling the gun his new toy or baby, something
• Ethan was caught in class looking up "ammunition" on his phone and was reported to admin by the teacher
• Emails were sent to Ethan's mother who responded to him with something like "LOL, I'm not mad but you've got to learn how not to get caught"
• Pictures drawn by Ethan were seen as well, pics of people shot with blood and the words "Help me" and "Life is Useless"
• The pictures were followed up with the laughing emoji
• Parents were summoned to the school to discuss what they'd found
• Ethan was brought out of class to the meeting
• Parents were encouraged to take him out of school and he was required to be put into counseling within 48 hours
• Parents didn't take him out of school and he went back to class
• Parents never asked where the 9mm was and did NOT search his backpack -- the gun was in the backpack the entire time
• School shooting took place that afternoon

I hate to say it, and I shouldn't, but it's too bad that kid didn't shoot his parents. For fuck's sake.

[Celery Man 20,944]

Haven’t read the thread, but glad to hear that the parents are being charged and I hope we get a chase.

[Baboontyme 2,810]

Some general musings that I was not amused whilst thinking of. 

I just had to drive across town for an errand. I live in the largest city in Oakland County. Oakland County is one of the wealthiest counties in the country. The boring ass suburban hellscape (joking sorta) where we reside has been named the safest city in Michigan numerous times in the past decade, and top 25 in the country. Yet today when I was driving down to Ferndale, I passed:

Gas station where there was a road rage murder this summer (https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2021/07/06/man-shot-during-argument-at-gas-station-in-troy/)

This is just down the road from where a gas station clerk was murdered, and I don't believe a suspect was ever id'd or arrested (https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/2014/02/15/troy-police-release-sketch-of-gas-station-clerk-murder-suspect/)

Every time I get on I-75 to head South, I pass right by the whatever Suites that used to be the Holiday Inn, where when we first moved to Troy, the front desk worker was tied up and executed and a woman visiting from Cedar Park on business was shot in the face (https://www.michigandaily.com/uncategorized/charges-brought-against-two-troy-hotel-robbery-murder/)

On my 4 mile trek down the Interstate I passed two Oxford Strong billboards. 

What the hell kind of society are we living in? The gun culture is completely out of control. 

What are we so scared of that we cling to the 2nd Amendment so hard? I think that common sense dictates the 2nd Amendment was written for vastly different purposes than it is retroactively applied today. That's an entirely separate argument that perhaps if we could get folks to reasonably agree upon, maybe could be a starting point for something. 

But back to - what are we scared of? Why do we as a society prolifically arm ourselves? To protect ourselves from bad guys with guns I guess? Are we scared that a big black guy from Detroit is going to come to our house with his gun and steal our Dodge Stratuses and shoot our children? I really don't know. Maybe if we could have people honestly answer that question we might be able to start some conversations. 

It would never happen but I would loosely propose something like this:

We are the richest country in the world so I have been told, so buy back the guns at an absurd price point. $5k per gun. 

If you want to have a gun, substantial background checks on both past history, and physical and mental well being, as well. If an online algorithm can run through all of my past when I'm applying for a mortgage or life insurance, we can certainly do something robust for background checks and psychological evaluations. What is the objection to this? Slippery slope can get the fuck out of here. 

I think someone mentioned upthread some kind of biological key that only allows the person who owns the gun to fire it. Again I'm sure this is a technology that could be figured out. 

If you use an unregistered gun, or are caught with an unregistered gun, lock them up and throw the key away. Put them in a cell with the Cash back Cash match commercial on repeat. 

Just some thoughts. Depressing. 

[burntorangebongos 10,710]

How fucking immature of these idiots to hide from the cops. 

[Brisketexan 105,123]

1 minute ago, burntorangebongos said:

How fucking immature of these idiots to hide from the cops. 

Read mom's rants.  These are "laws for thee, not for me" people.

[Helobious 9,449]

Parents are on the run. What worthless pieces of shit.

[d2o 1,602]

3 minutes ago, Baboontyme said:

Some general musings that I was not amused whilst thinking of. 

I just had to drive across town for an errand. I live in the largest city in Oakland County. Oakland County is one of the wealthiest counties in the country. The boring ass suburban hellscape (joking sorta) where we reside has been named the safest city in Michigan numerous times in the past decade, and top 25 in the country. Yet today when I was driving down to Ferndale, I passed:

Gas station where there was a road rage murder this summer (https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2021/07/06/man-shot-during-argument-at-gas-station-in-troy/)

This is just down the road from where a gas station clerk was murdered, and I don't believe a suspect was ever id'd or arrested (https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/2014/02/15/troy-police-release-sketch-of-gas-station-clerk-murder-suspect/)

Every time I get on I-75 to head South, I pass right by the whatever Suites that used to be the Holiday Inn, where when we first moved to Troy, the front desk worker was tied up and executed and a woman visiting from Cedar Park on business was shot in the face (https://www.michigandaily.com/uncategorized/charges-brought-against-two-troy-hotel-robbery-murder/)

On my 4 mile trek down the Interstate I passed two Oxford Strong billboards. 

What the hell kind of society are we living in? The gun culture is completely out of control. 

What are we so scared of that we cling to the 2nd Amendment so hard? I think that common sense dictates the 2nd Amendment was written for vastly different purposes than it is retroactively applied today. That's an entirely separate argument that perhaps if we could get folks to reasonably agree upon, maybe could be a starting point for something. 

But back to - what are we scared of? Why do we as a society prolifically arm ourselves? To protect ourselves from bad guys with guns I guess? Are we scared that a big black guy from Detroit is going to come to our house with his gun and steal our Dodge Stratuses and shoot our children? I really don't know. Maybe if we could have people honestly answer that question we might be able to start some conversations. 

It would never happen but I would loosely propose something like this:

We are the richest country in the world so I have been told, so buy back the guns at an absurd price point. $5k per gun. 

If you want to have a gun, substantial background checks on both past history, and physical and mental well being, as well. If an online algorithm can run through all of my past when I'm applying for a mortgage or life insurance, we can certainly do something robust for background checks and psychological evaluations. What is the objection to this? Slippery slope can get the fuck out of here. 

I think someone mentioned upthread some kind of biological key that only allows the person who owns the gun to fire it. Again I'm sure this is a technology that could be figured out. 

If you use an unregistered gun, or are caught with an unregistered gun, lock them up and throw the key away. Put them in a cell with the Cash back Cash match commercial on repeat. 

Just some thoughts. Depressing. 

This is what I've wondered for so long.   Shit I grew up in Detroit proper.   Went to Detroit public schools when kids were getting jacked (and sometimes shot/killed) for Max Julien jackets and Adidas top tens.    Throughout all of that I never felt scared enough that I needed to carry or even own a gun.     The folks out in Oakland county and other suburbs being so scared they need a fucking armory has always been laughable.

 

[conVINCEd 21,469]

I am not a law enforcement expert, but it would seem like good process to arrest the people who need to be arrested prior to holding the press conference announcing that you are going to arrest them.

[Telegraph_it 3,357]

This will end up well for them. 

 

 

 

[CooterBrown 18,008]

Come in LEOs. Here’s you’re opportunity to get away with murder. Just take a Rascal scooter to the scene.

[Deej 76,768]

36 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

 

Dog is having a good Autumn. 

[High Plains Drifter 11,048]

12 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

I am not a law enforcement expert, but it would seem like good process to arrest the people who need to be arrested prior to holding the press conference announcing that you are going to arrest them.

 

i mean, here is LEO's perfect chance to do a no knock, bust in the door wearing full battle rattle get your war on role play opportunity.

 

[Brisketexan 105,123]

2 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

i mean, here is LEO's perfect chance to do a no knock, bust in the door wearing full battle rattle get your war on role play opportunity.

 

I mean.....you did SEE that the parents are white, right?  So, umm, yeah......odds are going WAY down for your scenario.

[High Plains Drifter 11,048]

 

yes you are correct, counselor. I didn't think that through.

 

[Sandman 3,403]

13 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I mean.....you did SEE that the parents are white, right?  So, umm, yeah......odds are going WAY down for your scenario.

The rascal scooter guy looks (looked?) pretty white, it didn't seem to help him. I guess he could be "Zimmerman White". 

Maybe they'll have a dog with them, that'll give the cops the go-ahead.

[Huckleberry 32,859]

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Kids typically don’t get to that sociopathic state where they go out and want to kill others when they’ve had structured, disciplined, lifestyles typically that’s why.

But why debate you cause no matter what I say you’re gonna refute it 

 

If only he provided you with links to studies and actual statistical evidence. He's not the one running from the debate.

[atomheartbevo 89,659]

Parents coming in.

If there was an uptick in parents being prosecuted who were negligent and word got out that this was how it was going to be in the future, I wonder if more parents would do a better job of securing their firearms.

[Brisketexan 105,123]

2 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Parents coming in.

If there was an uptick in parents being prosecuted who were negligent and word got out that this was how it was going to be in the future, I wonder if more parents would do a better job of securing their firearms.

"Securing?"  They GAVE IT TO HIM.  IT WAS HIS GUN TO HAVE.

[Guest Lobo]

9 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Parents coming in.

If there was an uptick in parents being prosecuted who were negligent and word got out that this was how it was going to be in the future, I wonder if more parents would do a better job of securing their firearms.

I see his eyeglasses.  I acknowledge his eyeglasses.  But I contend when he’s not wearing those, his sunglasses of choice are wrap-around Oakley’s…I promise you.  

[atomheartbevo 89,659]

4 hours ago, hornbri said:

Why didn’t the school kick him out of school at that point? It seems like the pictures + the social media posting + search would have been enough to suspend. I have head of less. 

4 hours ago, burntorangebongos said:

I would have insisted he get off campus with his parents right then or go to in-school suspension alone until they can make arrangements to take him. They need to treat all troubled kids like him in this manner to jolt these stupid fucking parents into understanding the seriousness of their child's issues. Their heads were so far up their asses about him, it is astoundingly shocking in hindsight. 

1234.  Take a hardline approach on this shit, put it on the parents - the school kicks him out until he's seen an approved counselor, etc.  Way too many parents these days do check out a bit on raising their kids, especially older kids.

His parents probably thought to themselves  "oh we'll have a talk with him after school, and tell him not to get caught in class looking for ammo".

 

[Judge Roybeanbag 11,819]

16 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Parents coming in.

If there was an uptick in parents being prosecuted who were negligent and word got out that this was how it was going to be in the future, I wonder if more parents would do a better job of securing their firearms.

I was talking to my son about this yesterday.  They need to highly publicize the punishment of people charged with this type of thing.

[Dahobbs 17,534]

2 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Kids typically don’t get to that sociopathic state where they go out and want to kill others when they’ve had structured, disciplined, lifestyles typically that’s why.

But why debate you cause no matter what I say you’re gonna refute it 

 

I get that you feel it should be different. But the evidence says that corporal punishment is actually associated with an increase in violent propensity and school shootings. It's also odd to me that you equate corporal punishment with a "structured, disciplined lifestyle." I don't see any reason why you couldn't have the latter without the former. 

What's ironic is that you imply I'm the one arguing in bad faith when you're the one that hasn't provided a shred of evidence to support your gut suspicion. I'm not the one being unreasonable right now, you are. And, if you would you provide any evidence to support your position, I'd be willing to reconsider mine. 

[atomheartbevo 89,659]

22 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

"Securing?"  They GAVE IT TO HIM.  IT WAS HIS GUN TO HAVE.

Completely agree, but maybe if they publicized this stuff and took a hard line with parents, more folks would be a little more careful.  

Way too many parents want to be their kids' friends, and that's one of those trends I've wondered about over the past 30 years.

When I was a kid in the '70s/'80s, the idea that my dad was "my friend" well before I was finished high school was a foreign concept.

These days, I know plenty of parents who consider themselves to be their kids friends while being 100% responsible for those kids. 

 

[Fudge Nuggets 19,190]

4 hours ago, Baboontyme said:

What are we so scared of that we cling to the 2nd Amendment so hard?

Moooslem terrorists and radical socialists.  And MS-13 and brown people.  Oh and poor people.

[JimmyJames 12,271]

2 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

 

When I was a kid in the '70s/'80s, the idea that my dad was "my friend" well before I was finished high school was a foreign concept.

This. My dad was my friend until I fucked up and then he was basically the enemy I just wanted to try to avoid. And I was a lucky one  because a lot of my friends didn’t even have that as they probably saw their dad a couple times a year. 

It wasn’t ideal, just different. I’ve tried to reach a middle ground with my kids.

[Celery Man 20,944]

So they didn’t come in and they’re still on in the run, right? They might at some point be in a low speed chase or be in a cabin surrounded?

[Hawndoh 2,386]

I read they turned their phones off and got 4 grand from an ATM.

I guess their master plan is to go start a new life somewhere with 4 grand and leave their kid to rot in jail.

Couple of geniuses.

[conVINCEd 21,469]

4 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

So they didn’t come in and they’re still on in the run, right? They might at some point be in a low speed chase or be in a cabin surrounded?

I’m fine with whatever happens to two parents who give a troubled 15 year old a handgun for an early Xmas present and allow him to stick it in his backpack and take it to school.

[crash_davis 23,108]

i'm hoping they get in a shoot out and get swiss cheesed with bullets. and hopefully their son gets epsteined in jail. 

[Anastasis 23,469]

Damn, you can actually get 4k from the ATM?  When COVID started I needed some straight cash homey to mix with by 556 bartering provisions.  Had to use the drive through at Frost and they would only push out 2500 through the tube. 

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

6 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

i'm hoping they get in a shoot out and get swiss cheesed with bullets. and hopefully their son gets epsteined in jail. 

Them sure, they should have been aware of what the hell was going on with their son, that kid obviously has some serious mental issues. I can't wish death on him.  

[workswithseed 2,103]

I'm thinking we should go back to duels. This country has used guns for disagreements and anger for centuries. It's bred into us as a nation.

 

[atomheartbevo 89,659]

9 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Damn, you can actually get 4k from the ATM?  When COVID started I needed some straight cash homey to mix with by 556 bartering provisions.  Had to use the drive through at Frost and they would only push out 2500 through the tube. 

You didn't try and use your 556 bartering provisions to get more than 2500 out of the bank tellers?

[Anastasis 23,469]

1 minute ago, atomheartbevo said:

You didn't try and use your 556 bartering provisions to get more than 2500 out of the bank tellers?

Ah, no.  They hold a lot of my money.  Why would I threaten them with a firearm? If I was really worried I would have just gone inside.  But this was extremely early pandemic, and there was an enough uncertainty that I was not that committed. 

But still....can you actually get 4k out of an ATM?   

[atomheartbevo 89,659]

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

But still....can you actually get 4k out of an ATM?   

Two people could get 2k apiece, unless one of them fucks up and (or intentionally) puts "200" instead of "2000" because the gun pointed at them makes them nervous, and then at that point, you're just wanting to get out of there and don't want to wait around another 20 or 30 seconds or them to do another transaction.

[DDD Dad 14,339]

They've had access to firearms for the last 100 yrs. This is actually a fairly recent phenomenon. It isn't because of guns. 

Well I’m thinking the guns certainly facilitated the body count.

[conVINCEd 21,469]

15 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Ah, no.  They hold a lot of my money.  Why would I threaten them with a firearm? If I was really worried I would have just gone inside.  But this was extremely early pandemic, and there was an enough uncertainty that I was not that committed. 

But still....can you actually get 4k out of an ATM?   

In Vegas yes.  But I don’t really remember if it was one trip or multiple trips.  Not a good trip.

[atomheartbevo 89,659]

Okay, so they apparently haven't turned themselves in yet.  I'm putting it at 50/50 murder/suicide or suicide/suicide.

Also, their attorney?  She represented Larry Nassar.

https://www.newsweek.com/who-shannon-smith-larry-nassars-attorney-reps-alleged-oxford-shooters-parents-1655983

Quote

Smith, who graduated from the Michigan State University College of Law and began her career in family law, has been known for defending people accused of Michigan's most notorious sex crimes....

"I like the stakes being high," Smith told MLive in a 2018 interview, adding that she only takes cases in which the charges come with a sentence of life in prison.

"I love the part of this practice that lets me help my clients escape a system that can very much be a bully," she said.

She didn't think Nassar could molest so many kids/women.

Quote

Smith, though, told WWJ she had “a very hard time believing that my client could have even possibly assaulted that many people, day in and day out in front of their parents, and that every single one of those things was a crime, but he was such a manipulator he got away with it,” She added, “I just can’t imagine that’s true.”

“There was no way there could have been so much,” Smith told ESPN. “Larry would have to have been doing this all day, every day, with no one catching on. This is a guy who put child pornography in a trash can. He’s not a savvy guy.”

Seems like they picked the right attorney.

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by atomheartbevo

[Anastasis 23,469]

2 minutes ago, Bravo said:

Semi automatic firearms have been legal to own for a very long time. Why wasn't this a thing until the mid 90s then? 

We were all too distracted by the Satanic cults and trying to dodge HIV like we were Barry Sanders to go around shooting up other kids.

[Anastasis 23,469]

2 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

In Vegas yes.  But I don’t really remember if it was one trip or multiple trips.  Not a good trip.

Know that feel.