Bob Dole has passed

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

TIL he was still alive. welp, RIP

Edited December 6, 2021 by Longhorn_Fan68

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

3 hours ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

TIL he was still alive. welp, RIP

He was in the news fairly recently, after George HW Bush died, when he had an assistant help him stand in order to pay his respects.

Besides the obvious Weekend at Bernie’s jokes, that was a touching moment. 

[Cacti 191]

16 hours ago, Bama Chick said:

He was the only modern GOP presidential nominee/former president who was not a Never Trumper

On 12/5/2021 at 2:45 PM, Bama Chick said:

Eh. He admitted he voted for Trump twice and called himself a Trumper in July of this year.

For those few who are willing to dismiss or minimize positive, lifelong accomplishments of a man because of occasional bad or perceived bad judgments, I’d ask you to reconsider.

Voting for Trump—by itself—should not be the reason used to diminish Dole’s legacy as a respected lawmaker. If one is going to use a single criteria (a flaw, or perceived flaw) for judging, and consequently minimizing the overall accomplishments of a man, then it’s only logical to critique other men in other professions by the same standard.

For example, are we to minimize the profound scientific contributions of Darwin and Einstein because of bad/flawed/erroneous personal judgements? After all, the former was a sexist while the latter was a racist.

Isn't that enough to trivialize their contributions with an ‘eh’?

 

[wildcat09 29257]

Man, you fuck ONE goat and they never let you hear the end of it!

[JimmyJames 12271]

30 minutes ago, Cacti said:

For those few who are willing to dismiss or minimize positive, lifelong accomplishments of a man because of occasional bad or perceived bad judgments, I’d ask you to reconsider.

Voting for Trump—by itself—should not be the reason used to diminish Dole’s legacy as a respected lawmaker. If one is going to use a single criteria (a flaw, or perceived flaw) for judging, and consequently minimizing the overall accomplishments of a man, then it’s only logical to critique other men in other professions by the same standard.

For example, are we to minimize the profound scientific contributions of Darwin and Einstein because of bad/flawed/erroneous personal judgements? After all, the former was a sexist while the latter was a racist.

Isn't that enough to trivialize their contributions with an ‘eh’?

 

I’m willing to overlook some racism and sexism but a guy who should be as smart and as tuned into politics as Dole in 2020 to vote for Trump anyway is not forgivable. I suppose if you want to argue he was 98 and senile at the time I’d consider that.

[elfenix 34171]

in high school gov't class we took a field trip to his rally in downtown houston.  got a "dole-kemp" chant going, then subtly changed it to "old gimp" while the blue hairs nearby nodded approvingly.  good times. 

 

rip you codger

[Serak The Preparer 3424]

1 hour ago, Cacti said:

For those few who are willing to dismiss or minimize positive, lifelong accomplishments of a man because of occasional bad or perceived bad judgments, I’d ask you to reconsider.

Voting for Trump—by itself—should not be the reason used to diminish Dole’s legacy as a respected lawmaker. If one is going to use a single criteria (a flaw, or perceived flaw) for judging, and consequently minimizing the overall accomplishments of a man, then it’s only logical to critique other men in other professions by the same standard.

For example, are we to minimize the profound scientific contributions of Darwin and Einstein because of bad/flawed/erroneous personal judgements? After all, the former was a sexist while the latter was a racist.

Isn't that enough to trivialize their contributions with an ‘eh’?

 

I somewhat agree with you, at least in general, but in this case Dole is being praised specifically for being a politician. By all accounts he was a war hero (I don't know any particulars but certainly have no reason to think otherwise) but he is in the news because he was a Senator and a Presidential Candidate. In that sense, his support of Trump / Trumpism directly impacts his specific political legacy. If Einstein principally wrote about genetics / sociology while being a racist, I do think it would impact his legacy more than it does.

[lemonlime 5503]

1 hour ago, Cacti said:

For those few who are willing to dismiss or minimize positive, lifelong accomplishments of a man because of occasional bad or perceived bad judgments, I’d ask you to reconsider.

Voting for Trump—by itself—should not be the reason used to diminish Dole’s legacy as a respected lawmaker. If one is going to use a single criteria (a flaw, or perceived flaw) for judging, and consequently minimizing the overall accomplishments of a man, then it’s only logical to critique other men in other professions by the same standard.

For example, are we to minimize the profound scientific contributions of Darwin and Einstein because of bad/flawed/erroneous personal judgements? After all, the former was a sexist while the latter was a racist.

Isn't that enough to trivialize their contributions with an ‘eh’?

 

Joe McCarthy was wounded in WWII.  Not sure many remember that.

Dole was the face of the GOP, at a time when it was a reasonable alternative, but being taken over by the evangelical wing, and a time when it was already peddling in some racist, homophobic, and sexist policies/rhetoric, but with the exception of the homophobia, with dog whistles rather than bull horns.  Then he continued to support the party that he had been the face of, when the GOP turned into the GQP, and its leaders supported an overthrow of the government.

I don't know what was in his heart.  He probably meant well.  It sounds like he did incredibly admirable things before entering public life.  But his legacy is being a visible Republican face, who stood by while they trashed democracy in America.

[bluto 4894]

I’m actually willing to cut more slack for current active gop who trump as they at least had/have something to gain from that deal with the devil. Dole didn’t have shit to gain from it at his age 

[CooterBrown 17913]

Yeah.....can say some decent things about Dole.  Plenty, actually.  But way to taint the legacy.  History will not be a kind judge of people who enabled one of the most malignant political forces in American history.

Unfortunately the victors write history and once the GOP takes over for good in ‘24, due to the slap dick retardation of the Democratic Party, we are just two generations away from their version of the truth being all that is known about current events.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

If Dole called himself a Trumper, that’s an unfortunate ending to a public life that was generally respected. He is not the first and definitely not the last politician that should have kept quiet in his later years.

I don’t mean this specifically about Dole but politicians can also outlive positive public opinions about them.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

12 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

Unfortunately the victors write history and once the GOP takes over for good in ‘24, due to the slap dick retardation of the Democratic Party, we are just two generations away from their version of the truth being all that is known about current events.

Say wut ? take over for good in 24 ?  Theres always a back and forth of the power pendulum.  Finding common ground would be a great thing , but the party fringes can't have that.

[CooterBrown 17913]

Say wut ? take over for good in 24 ?  Theres always a back and forth of the power pendulum.  Finding common ground would be a great thing , but the party fringes can't have that.

Keep on believing that there will be fair elections and equal voting opportunities after ‘24. Bless your heart.

[TwiceHorn 31283]

1 hour ago, JimmyJames said:

I’m willing to overlook some racism and sexism but a guy who should be as smart and as tuned into politics as Dole in 2020 to vote for Trump anyway is not forgivable. I suppose if you want to argue he was 98 and senile at the time I’d consider that.

I would have liked to believe the "doddering old fool" line of thought.  But he made some cogent remarks post-election indicating that he fully understood what a jackhole is Trump, principally that the election fraud claims are horseshit.

Bizarro.

[TwiceHorn 31283]

5 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Say wut ? take over for good in 24 ?  Theres always a back and forth of the power pendulum.  Finding common ground would be a great thing , but the party fringes can't have that.

Well, except with the GQP, it's not the party fringes.  The party fringes are the only ones wanting to do politics, and actually govern the country.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

Keep on believing that there will be fair elections and equal voting opportunities after ‘24. Bless your heart.

You hanging on the ledge with Brisket ?    There there little bear, it'll be all right.  The GOP will fuck it up just like the DNC does.  

[Guest Lobo]

6 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I would have liked to believe the "doddering old fool" line of thought.  But he made some cogent remarks post-election indicating that he fully understood what a jackhole is Trump, principally that the election fraud claims are horseshit.

Bizarro.

Yeah, 96 year olds don't always just babble incoherently.  You don't have any elderly relatives?  The expression "Good days...and bad" exists for a reason.  It's entirely possible, even probable, he doesn't remember what he did on Election Day...just that he doesn't trust/like Trump anymore.  How is this a fucking thing right now?  

[Sbbruin 21737]

[Cacti 191]

1 hour ago, lemonlime said:

But his legacy is being a visible Republican face, who stood by while they trashed democracy in America.

Again, I question the fairness of judging Dole on one criteria (voting for Trump), when his accomplishments while in office more than offset that, imo.

He, along with Moynihan, led the effort to save Social Security from collapsing. Due to their efforts, laws were passes, S.S. was reformed and is solvent for years to come. I don’t think the importance of shoring up a pillar of our society can be overstated.

He was also instrumental in revamping the food stamp program. Along with McGovern, he helped shape legislation which resulted in additional millions of people being eligible for assistance.

And he was a key figure in getting the Americans with Disabilities act passed.

Fortunately, most people will choose to remember Dole for the good he accomplished, not for his Trump vote.

[Celery Man 20886]

2 hours ago, Cacti said:

For those few who are willing to dismiss or minimize positive, lifelong accomplishments of a man because of occasional bad or perceived bad judgments, I’d ask you to reconsider.

Voting for Trump—by itself—should not be the reason used to diminish Dole’s legacy as a respected lawmaker. If one is going to use a single criteria (a flaw, or perceived flaw) for judging, and consequently minimizing the overall accomplishments of a man, then it’s only logical to critique other men in other professions by the same standard.

For example, are we to minimize the profound scientific contributions of Darwin and Einstein because of bad/flawed/erroneous personal judgements? After all, the former was a sexist while the latter was a racist.

Isn't that enough to trivialize their contributions with an ‘eh’?

 

The argument that he was senile and couldn’t count to seven anymore so maybe don’t take his statements re:Trump too seriously is compelling if true. Otherwise yeah a life of service to your country is rendered moot by ending as a big thumbs up for ending the American experiment, which is what Trumpism post failed coup amounts to.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Celery Man

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

Bob Dole might have been a nice guy on a personal level and we thank him for his service fighting the nazis.  However, many of his ideas were dogshit and harmful to society and the environment in general. IMO he was more part of the problem than the solution to our most important issues that continue to plague us today. He’s better than McConnell and Cruz but who isn’t?  RIP Bob. 

[bolverk 29401]

In 1996, Dole kept the worst the GOP had to offer at bay by fending off Pat Buchanan, whom I've long felt was a kind of proto-Trump. His brand of extreme nationalistic isolationism and bombastic "culture wars" rantings presaged what was coming.

Not only that, Dole was also able to get Gingrich -- another malignant influence from the right -- and his "class of 1994" absolutists to somewhat moderate their legislative agenda at times.

I didn't vote for him in 1996, but I did appreciate he was one of the last real GOP statesmen, who actually believed in compromise with his "friends across the aisle", while the more radical Republicans began to talk of Democrats as their enemies.

It was the rising influence of all those other assholes that got me to question the GOP loyalties I'd been raised with. If there had been more Doles left at the time, I may have not fundamentally reconfigured my thinking for another decade. He provided a great enough contrast that it was easy to see the direction that party was eventually going to go what we call MAGA today. So, I thank him for that.

RIP, Senator.

[TwiceHorn 31283]

2 hours ago, Lobo said:

Yeah, 96 year olds don't always just babble incoherently.  You don't have any elderly relatives?  The expression "Good days...and bad" exists for a reason.  It's entirely possible, even probable, he doesn't remember what he did on Election Day...just that he doesn't trust/like Trump anymore.  How is this a fucking thing right now?  

Maybe so.  But what are the odds of two bad days on election day four years apart and a good day when he did a news interview, during which he also said he supported Trump.

More than condemning him for it, I'm flabbergasted.  

[High Plains Drifter 10977]

 

2 hours ago, Cacti said:

Again, I question the fairness of judging Dole on one criteria (voting for Trump), when his accomplishments while in office more than offset that, imo.

He, along with Moynihan, led the effort to save Social Security from collapsing. Due to their efforts, laws were passes, S.S. was reformed and is solvent for years to come. I don’t think the importance of shoring up a pillar of our society can be overstated.

He was also instrumental in revamping the food stamp program. Along with McGovern, he helped shape legislation which resulted in additional millions of people being eligible for assistance.

And he was a key figure in getting the Americans with Disabilities act passed.

Fortunately, most people will choose to remember Dole for the good he accomplished, not for his Trump vote.

 

Didn't he break with his party and vote for the ADA? Seems like it was a big deal at the time. My wife worked as an intern at a disability advocate non profit right out of law school (and wrote a friend of the court brief which the majority opinion in a case before SCOTUS used a term from ("handicapped ghetto") in its ruling btw) and she said (in not so many words) that every asshole rolling around in a wheel chair or a rascal should consider him a gotdamn hero for what he did getting the ADA passed.

Of course most of those rascal assholes probably would call him a RINO today.

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Bob Dole might have been a nice guy on a personal level and we thank him for his service fighting the nazis.  However, many of his ideas were dogshit and harmful to society and the environment in general. IMO he was more part of the problem than the solution to our most important issues that continue to plague us today. He’s better than McConnell and Cruz but who isn’t?  RIP Bob. 

Yeah he only helped create solvency for SS, thru bipartisan cooperation, and was the chief architect for the Americans with disabilities Act legislation.  One of the most far reaching pieces of legislation that actually benefited citizens of this country, actually achieved something.

Yeah nothing much.  

[JimmyJames 12271]

Just read his last op Ed. While a nice read and hopeful about compromise, he was seriously out of touch as to what his party had really become. No republicans would listen to it and would just dismiss him as a rino.

[Anastasis 23394]

Wonder what the political landscape in America would look like today had Perot never waded in and dole squeaked out a win*.

 

*I know that there is good evidence that Perot was pulling from both pretty equally and it probably wouldn’t have impacted the ultimate result. 

[bolverk 29401]

13 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yeah he only helped create solvency for SS, thru bipartisan cooperation, and was the chief architect for the Americans with disabilities Act legislation.  One of the most far reaching pieces of legislation that actually benefited citizens of this country, actually achieved something.

Yeah nothing much.  

That's not true. He was a strong supporter and was integral in getting Republicans on board for it to pass, but he was not its chief architect.

The House bill was written by Tony Coelho (CA-D) and was accompanied by Tom Harkin's (IA-D) version in the Senate.

Edited December 7, 2021 by bolverk

[Brisketexan 104628]

Yeah he only helped create solvency for SS, thru bipartisan cooperation, and was the chief architect for the Americans with disabilities Act legislation.  One of the most far reaching pieces of legislation that actually benefited citizens of this country, actually achieved something.
Yeah nothing much.  

All of which would get him run out of the GQP on a rail for being a “libtard.” And he was too blind to see it, and supported the man who would have led the chants. It is flabbergasting.

Oh, and I hold his Trump votes against him because I’m a one-issue voter now: I vote for those who would preserve our democracy and allow future fair and open elections where the people have a voice, and against those who don’t. It makes my votes super easy these days.

[JimmyJames 12271]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Wonder what the political landscape in America would look like today had Perot never waded in and dole squeaked out a win*.

 

*I know that there is good evidence that Perot was pulling from both pretty equally and it probably wouldn’t have impacted the ultimate result. 

I really think the only real difference would be that Bill never gets impeached. W wins in 2004 instead of 2000 and then loses to Obama in 2008 and the rest is the same.

[Anastasis 23394]

Just now, JimmyJames said:

I really think the only real difference would be that Bill never gets impeached. W wins in 2004 instead of 2000 and then loses to Obama in 2008 and the rest is the same.

HRC runs against Obama in 2008?

[JimmyJames 12271]

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

HRC runs against Obama in 2008?

In the dem primary and loses, just like she did. The economy collapses in late 2008 just like it did and Obama becomes the president. Only this time he beats W instead of McCain. 

[Anastasis 23394]

Not sure that the hrc timeline plays out the same way. 

[Guest Lobo]

Obama was always going to beat HRC and any GOP nominee in 2008.  Only way he doesn't has nothing to do with 2008, it's that he's not a U.S. Senator in 2006 when he declares because he lost to Jack Ryan because his divorce records are never unsealed.  Obama still goes on to federal office, maybe even Governor and ends up in the White House one day but long after the 2008 playbook.  Dole was never going to beat Clinton.  Perot did affect the 1992 election, but had nothing significant to do with 1996.  

The real head scratcher is 40,000 votes in Ohio and Wisconsin and Ford-Dole win 1976.  Dole/Bush/Reagan duke it out in 1980 (Ford had privately indicated if he won, he wouldn't run again in 1980).  Think about a non-Reagan American in the 1980's.  What does that mean for the Cold War?  And what does that mean for the 1990's to 2001?  

[DigglerontheHoof 21065]

On 12/6/2021 at 12:07 AM, Bama Chick said:

He was the only modern GOP presidential nominee/former president who was not a Never Trumper

Bush 1, Bush 2, McCain, and Romney all somehow managed to clear that low bar.

Counter point.  He damn near died in combat fighting in Italy in WWII.  I'll give 90+ year old Bob a break for what 20 year old Bob sacrificed. 

[CooterBrown 17913]

Counter point.  He damn near died in combat fighting in Italy in WWII.  I'll give 90+ year old Bob a break for what 20 year old Bob sacrificed. 

To be fair, lots of horrible people have been and will be veterans.

Timothy McVey killed a few hundred but he was a veteran. So, I guess at worst, it was a wash.

[OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys 2059]

this is a brainworms thread.  have none of y'all met a 90 year old?  how is it possible he had a poor understanding of the world when his mind was 15 years past its expected expiration date?

[Guest Lobo]

I'm not saying some good can outweigh all bad, but christ people---this is Bob Dole.  Look at his life, at his complete body of work.  

But he made a few upsetting remarks in his fucking mid-90's, so fuck his pro-Trump ass all of a sudden?  

Both sides being real fucking mature this week.  I should know, I'm woefully immature.

[Nolacycling 893]

MTP is running old Dole clips.

"Have you ever told the truth, the whole truth and ... on this show?"

"Probably not"

The panel chuckles. These days nobody would make that joke or it would be all over the  media and turned into a huge revelation