School hardening a simple solution for simpletons

[Loco 3754]

An attempt at a discussion of the real life problems with this solution.

No politics please, unless you're an asshole

Disclosure:

• I have a daughter in Middle School and a son in High School in the 6th largest school district in the US (Broward County Florida)
• I bought a shotgun the day I turned 18 and continue to own a WIDE variety of guns (kept locked in a gun safe)
• I have been on a variety of campuses all over the county/state for sporting events and to judge "debate" tournaments

 

1. Infrastructure impacts
   • Reduce entrances and exist to schools - Ideally students would be sent through a metal detector or screened in some manor for weapons
   • Eliminate sight lines onto campuses - Shooting from parking lot, adjacent field, or tower
   • Better communication method for reporting active shooter (gun shot alarm system) 
   • Hardened classroom doors, locks, and windows or Safe room
   • Separation of arriving buses or Security checks prior to kids entering each bus
   • ID and location services on student IDs -  facial recognition systems
   • 24/7 active monitoring of all fields and areas that students access during the day (can't stash weapons for latter use)
   • All sporting events and club activities must be secured in a similar manor as above (football, baseball, soccer, swimming)
   • Secure fire alarm area for students to gather in event of a fire/ fire drill (MSD & SFHS)
   • Weapons lockers for armed security or teachers (don't want to coach football with a glock in your shorts?)
2. Logistics
   • Need to be able to move 2-3k kids through security at least twice a day (might need to lengthen school hours to accommodate security)
   • Have to inspect all deliveries and school maintenance workers/ vehicles (food, janitorial, coaches, PTA)
   • Increase staff to secure school perimeter 24/7 and conduct security check points
   • Develop weapon training and qualification standards for security/teachers
   • Conduct psych reviews for any personnel carrying a weapon on school ground

 

So those are just a few warm up items...   

• Who is going to pay for this? 
• How quickly could these schools be retro fit or built?
• Will private schools be required to make these changes?
• How in the hell are you going to secure a football game, prom, or sporting event?
• Does anyone really think our kids should be raised like this?
• Where is the marginal sweet spot and how do you defend it after the next school shooting....  this seems very slippery slope.

 

I just get frustrated when you hear talking heads say "well the answer is to harden schools..." without any thought or discussion about the real world impacts.  I just assume that they just want to do a token visible thing and don't really give a shit if it works well or makes sense.  The worst possible combination is something stupid and wasteful then call it a day.   IE Clearbacks...  which are a thing, but only at MSD, not any other school in Broward county...yeah team!

 

also sorry for the rant...

 

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

[South Austin 52604]

We stand. No promises, no demands.

[Judge Roybeanbag 11821]

14 minutes ago, South Austin said:

We stand. No promises, no demands.

We are all Pat.  

[Judge Roybeanbag 11821]

Well, except for ex-Pat.  

[Larry T. Spider 1747]

I’m in charge of safety for my elementary school. We take every reasonable precaution. I think that any increase in security measures from where we are now will come with a lot of unintended side effects. We do all that we can to make our school a happy, welcoming environment for our students and families. I don’t want to lose that in an effort to implement security procedures that will still likely be ineffective if somebody has an AK. Hell, you could mow 100 people down at dismissal or just get on a fully loaded bus with a gun, neither of which involve getting in the school.

There are imperfect solutions that will indirectly increase security at schools but that goes too political for this thread. My main point is that there are non-monetary costs associated with turning neighborhood schools into fortresses.

[Neonmoon 38130]

I think some things you listed can be done without breaking the bank. I think an increased security awareness is always a good thing. But for most things listed it will be not feasible becsuse of cost 

[Horn_Spanker 524]

I was right!  Told the wife when it happened that if the kid had gotten laid, he wouldn't have done it.  Now we lean he was rejected by some female he had an interest in.  I know when I was that age, my largest angst was lack of female attention.

I propose school districts hire some hookers to take care of these guys.  A whole lot cheaper than the ideas above.

[Pato del Muerto 52600]

Or have no refusal weekends like the cops do, when these selfish girls aren’t allowed to say no, in the interest of public safety. 

Edited May 20, 2018 by Pato del Muerto

[Loco 3754]

37 minutes ago, Horn_Spanker said:

I was right!  Told the wife when it happened that if the kid had gotten laid, he wouldn't have done it.  Now we lean he was rejected by some female he had an interest in.  I know when I was that age, my largest angst was lack of female attention.

I propose school districts hire some hookers to take care of these guys.  A whole lot cheaper than the ideas above.

Might work in Japanese schools "Comfort Students" has as certain ring to it...

[Loco 3754]

1 hour ago, Neonmoon said:

I think some things you listed can be done without breaking the bank. I think an increased security awareness is always a good thing. But for most things listed it will be not feasible becsuse of cost 

I'd be interested to know which ones you think are feasible?   

 

I definitely think the facial rec, badges tracking, and gun shot alarms are easiest but they won't do shit once the bullets start flying except give police a better chance to be effective.

 

Hell in our school district they still have "portables" doublewide class room trailers...  some are 30yrs old or so.   A buddy of mine does HVAC contracting for Lee County schools and they are taking 10-15 years to build a school.   So heavy cost items feel like non-starters

[tbone_ 14162]

Seems like a productive discussion

[77horn 216]

Regarding the OP, Don't know about other areas, but here (Conroe ISD) , school buildings are often rented after school hours by groups such as a church for meetings.  So unless the security is being done for these events, a killer could sneak his weapon onto the campus and into his locker on Sunday and then go on his killing spree on Monday.

[Loco 3754]

1 hour ago, 77horn said:

Regarding the OP, Don't know about other areas, but here (Conroe ISD) , school buildings are often rented after school hours by groups such as a church for meetings.  So unless the security is being done for these events, a killer could sneak his weapon onto the campus and into his locker on Sunday and then go on his killing spree on Monday.

that's one of my concerns, you don't just have to guard the property (and grounds) when kids are on campus, you have to keep it sterile 24/7.  Not only that, perimeter defenses need to be robust so a determined shooter doesn't hop a fence and go on a rampage.

 

A lot of resources will be burned if you're serious about hardening the schools.

[swraith 347]

It doesn’t seem realistic to harden these targets to the point of being successful without turning the school into a full on prison.

[phdhorn 6224]

I think somewhere not too far down the road, we're going to see more and more remote teaching.  Hell, it's in at least 1/3 of UT's classes now.  You'll learn from home and log into class sessions, etc.  

[Fuck Tim Beck 3834]

5 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Or have no refusal weekends like the cops do, when these selfish girls aren’t allowed to say no, in the interest of public safety. 

Art Briles? 

[RandomIdoit 657]

So those are just a few warm up items...   

• Who is going to pay for this? Bonds just like they do for upgrades and new schools now. 
• How quickly could these schools be retro fit or built? Depends on what needs to be done, but the simplest ones can be done over the summer.
• Will private schools be required to make these changes? No.
• How in the hell are you going to secure a football game, prom, or sporting event? Hire more police to moonlight and metal detectors at the gates.
• Does anyone really think our kids should be raised like this? Yes, the safer I can make them, the better.
• Where is the marginal sweet spot and how do you defend it after the next school shooting....  this seems very slippery slope. No idea.

 

These are a few things that I would be in favor of that would be easy to implement:

• Metal detectors/bag inspection at designated entrances. Some schools only need one, some will need more. All other doors to the school are fire exits. 
• Student Ids scanned when the student enters the school, and scanned when they leave. If a student is scanned in, and they are not in class or accounted for (office, nurse, lunch), security will be notified to locate the student.
• Distinguishable active shooter alarm that is different than the fire alarm. We don't want students walking out of the classroom. 
• All classroom doors closed during class and locked from the outside when the door is closed. Can be opened from the inside or with a key.
• Clear backpacks.

[Hornsareus 9]

Can trained dogs smell gun powder?  If so, forget the whole metal detector idea.  Have them at the entrances that way you don't have large crowds forming waiting to get inside. 

[Hornsareus 9]

Also remove fire alarm pull stations and go to the smoke detection activated route like what you see in hotels and new offices. 

[woohorn 1131]

What happens when bomb threat or kid with a lighter set off fire alarms and kids evac to playing fields. Also, the 100 kids with trombones waiting in line on front steps each morning for their tsa check are sitting ducks. Harding will never work because perimeter can't be secured.

Also, games/tutoring/private lessons/etc. are going on all night on campus. Parents rushing from work to see a vb game in the gym ain't gonna get to school an hour early to go through the front door tsa check every night. Hardening will never work because schedules are too tight at the large, public schools that have limited facilities.

[Helobious 9464]

People forget that the 2005 Red Lake massacre happened at a school with metal detectors. The shooter shot the 2 security guards manning the metal detectors and walked right through. 

[CooterBrown 18029]

We don’t even do simple shit. These are $50. Why isn’t there one hanging on a hook next to each classroom door?



Retro fit every classroom with a heavy duty door and a barricading device. It maybe be $1000 a classroom which would be way cheaper than all the arm chair quarterbacking solutions and could be done quickly.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

I can’t think of an easier target for a mass killer than a bunch of kids standing in a long line waiting to go through a metal detector.  

[Larry T. Spider 1747]

I would much favor solutions like this where students can maintain some sense of normalcy rather than go to school in a prison until they are 18. I still maintain that securing the school in this manner will just open up other targets. Walk on a bus with a gun at dismissal time and it’s only a matter of how many bullets you have....

[Celery Man 20996]

1 hour ago, phdhorn said:

I think somewhere not too far down the road, we're going to see more and more remote teaching.  Hell, it's in at least 1/3 of UT's classes now.  You'll learn from home and log into class sessions, etc.  

the socialization aspect of school is extremely important, imo

[Pato del Muerto 52600]

22 minutes ago, Larry T. Spider said:

I would much favor solutions like this where students can maintain some sense of normalcy rather than go to school in a prison until they are 18. I still maintain that securing the school in this manner will just open up other targets. Walk on a bus with a gun at dismissal time and it’s only a matter of how many bullets you have....

Those targets are already open. 

[Larry T. Spider 1747]

4 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Those targets are already open. 

They aren’t being used because other targets are relatively open as well. Shut the schools down and they will be used. I think we should take more reasonable precautions such as the door locks a few posts up but I’m not going to pretend that these maniacs won’t just find another soft target. Hell, how many people could one guy take out at a packed hs football game with an ak before one of the cops got to him? The bus situation is real. Dismissal is another issue. Or go to class as normal, pull the fire alarm, walk to your car and get an ak and start mowing people down. That’s with 30 seconds of thinking. Please don’t take me for being in the “do nothing” camp, I’m just trying to be realistic about the challenges.

[Celery Man 20996]

I mean, on the one hand, that's right - there are other targets that are open.  On the other hand, it may not be completely accurate that if schools were a more difficult target, school shooters would just shoot up bus stops.  Or if they didn't have guns, they would just use bombs or fire or a car or whatever.  I think we could apply that to terrorists (domestic and otherwise).  But I think with kids who want to go on a murderous rampage amongst their classmates, it may really be more of a gun and school thing, for whatever reason.  Maybe not, but I don't think it's as simple as someone who just wants to kill a bunch of people and thus far school+gun has been the easiest recipe.

[Larry T. Spider 1747]

In almost every instance it has been a kid wanting to inflict damage on his classmates. It’s almost always a different reason why in every scenario but going after classmates is the constant. There are soooo many ways to do that. I just don’t see these kids that are willing to die saying “fuck it, schools locked down, I give up”. But let’s say you are right and we implement some of the suggested solutions. Scenario is a kid willing to die comes to school with an ak. Which of the above precautions ends up saving lives? Since the last shooting was 10 people, let’s use that as the standard.

Even the one I like with the really solid door locks don’t account for the 400 kids in the cafeteria. 10 would be easy.

Metal detectors are in place. Kid walks up with an ak and could take out 10 standing in line.

Gun alarm only goes off after the shooting has started. If the kid is in a classroom 10 is easy yet again.

Armed guards have been present in many of these affected schools and have done damn near nothing.

I know I’m coming across as a “just don’t do anything” type, which is not my goal. Hell, I want to be safe at work. I just don’t see many of these things really cutting down on casualties. 

Edit: here is an article about Santa Fe hs having 2 armed guards and other measures in place.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/santa-fe-school-had-a-shooting-plan-armed-officers-and-practice-and-still-10-people-died/2018/05/19/58b1b55e-5b8d-11e8-8b92-45fdd7aaef3c_story.html?utm_term=.397845e6fd2b&wpisrc=nl_most&wpmm=1

 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Larry T. Spider

[skipperj 377]

Could just also ban guns.

[HoustonHorn 1062]

To solve a problem resolve the root cause. The rest is mitigation. Not necessarily bad but ignoring the critical issue.

[Celery Man 20996]

what if the root cause is only solvable on the micro level, and therefore is unsolvable?

[52-80 19246]

Just lock up the kids via pre-crime detection.

[Bevo 13601]

I would think holding school design contests for new school construction would be beneficial. Maybe, a more compact design with parking across the street from the building with a wide walkway bridge over the road. Also, limited entry points with a short wall all the way around that is difficult to climb (no climb paint) and is aesthetically pleasing.

[Samson's Wig 3194]

40 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Just lock up the kids via pre-crime detection.

Edit.  I think that started to get political.  Deleted. 

We're closer to pre-crime detection than most think (by way of online monitoring and the tweaking of some basic rights).

Edited May 21, 2018 by Samson's Wig

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

6 minutes ago, Samson's Wig said:

Edit.  I think that started to get political.  Deleted. 

We're closer to pre-crime detection than most think (by way of online monitoring and the tweaking of some basic rights).

Probably the quickest and most effective short term solution, and children aren’t extended all rights anyway. 

[Macanudo 13012]

23 minutes ago, Bevo said:

I would think holding school design contests for new school construction would be beneficial. Maybe, a more compact design with parking across the street from the building with a wide walkway bridge over the road. Also, limited entry points with a short wall all the way around that is difficult to climb (no climb paint) and is aesthetically pleasing.

So... a prison?

[Bevo 13601]

2 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

So... a prison?

Not even close, although I guess it was fun for you to write. More like Duchesne Academy of The Sacred Heart.

 

['stache 21866]

Make mental healthcare available to everyone regardless of insurance or income? Nah, let’s just prison up the schools.

[ChickenSandwich 9853]

Need to stop having kids go to school with the same group of kids elementary through high school. To these kids who are bullied, school already is the prison they can’t escape and are forced to attend and they breed school killers. Why don’t we see this as much on large college campuses? Anonymity works. These killers feel trapped in the same room with their tormentors and is whY they come back to terrorize their abuser. 

It’s not the security, as school shooting have been going on forever, and if were able to ban guns, the next we would hear about is a student burning down a school. 

The school environment and the kids in it are creating serial killers. Until you address the real issue the kids and the killer, it’s all basically meaningless. 

But to realize your children might be responsible for creating a monster is a responsibility conversation, not going to happen. Much easier to attack the methods of the serial killer than admit the current school environments and the kids in them breed them. 

Other option is to charge the parent/gun owner. The Dad in this situation needs to be made an example of. Life in prison. Hold the family responsible for not locking up their weapons, or if they feel they don’t need to, be responsible for anything after that. 

Until we address the real issue...Why schools breed serial killers, all you are doing is changing the method of assault. 

[ChickenSandwich 9853]

3 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Make mental healthcare available to everyone regardless of insurance or income? Nah, let’s just prison up the schools.

Should be mandatory from elementary through high school. 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

3 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Make mental healthcare available to everyone regardless of insurance or income? Nah, let’s just prison up the schools.

So you think these kids will seek out mental healthcare?  Or that their parents will drag them in for sessions they aren’t interested in?

[Grippe 313]

Remote schooling via the OASIS.

 

Seriously though, my last kid is graduating this Friday - if I were looking at another one doing 4-12 years I'd look up remote on-line education, so more than home schooling by leveraging connectivity for social aspect but keeping control of their safety and the content being taught.

[Hate 20145]

17 hours ago, Horn_Spanker said:

I was right!  Told the wife when it happened that if the kid had gotten laid, he wouldn't have done it.  Now we lean he was rejected by some female he had an interest in.  I know when I was that age, my largest angst was lack of female attention.

I propose school districts hire some hookers to take care of these guys.  A whole lot cheaper than the ideas above.

If this was passed, I'd be pulling a Ron Weaver.

 

[InkaUtexas 26109]

13 hours ago, phdhorn said:

I think somewhere not too far down the road, we're going to see more and more remote teaching.  Hell, it's in at least 1/3 of UT's classes now.  You'll learn from home and log into class sessions, etc.  

feeds the issue. Kids need to be around other kids vs. sitting in their rooms in a chat room talking about why they cannot get laid or who has the coolest pistol picture. 

[SDG 3319]

Smaller schools might be a solution.  Not for safety reasons outlined above, but because it’s so much harder to go unnoticed or become an outcast.  I realize it’s a small sample size, but my high school never even had a fight during my time. 

[ChickenSandwich 9853]

5 minutes ago, SDG said:

Smaller schools might be a solution.  Not for safety reasons outlined above, but because it’s so much harder to go unnoticed or become an outcast.  I realize it’s a small sample size, but my high school never even had a fight during my time. 

This could be accomplished at large schools with block scheduling. M-W-F, T-Th etc. 

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

19 hours ago, Horn_Spanker said:

I was right!  Told the wife when it happened that if the kid had gotten laid, he wouldn't have done it.  Now we lean he was rejected by some female he had an interest in.  I know when I was that age, my largest angst was lack of female attention.

I propose school districts hire some hookers to take care of these guys.  A whole lot cheaper than the ideas above.

All of the school shootings have occurred since the crackdown on female teachers being busted for having sex with their students. Banging your highschool French teacher should be a right of passage for all males and preventing this from occurring has to be a major part of the problem.

['stache 21866]

2 hours ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

So you think these kids will seek out mental healthcare?  Or that their parents will drag them in for sessions they aren’t interested in?

Some of them, yes.  How many parents do you think recognize their kid may be disturbed but are without insurance or income to pay out-of-pocket and therefore cannot seek help?