School hardening a simple solution for simpletons

[Bevo 13577]

41 minutes ago, SDG said:

Smaller schools might be a solution.  Not for safety reasons outlined above, but because it’s so much harder to go unnoticed or become an outcast.  I realize it’s a small sample size, but my high school never even had a fight during my time. 

Could be true. I could see more single sex schools too. If I had daughters, I would feel that they would be more safe in single sex schools. All the killers have been male. Testosterone blockers could help but would never be implemented.

 

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

18 minutes ago, Bevo said:

 Testosterone blockers could help but would never be implemented.

 

Wait...what?

[ShaggyBevo RIP 3868]

2 hours ago, Grippe said:

Remote schooling via the OASIS.

 

Seriously though, my last kid is graduating this Friday - if I were looking at another one doing 4-12 years I'd look up remote on-line education, so more than home schooling by leveraging connectivity for social aspect but keeping control of their safety and the content being taught.

In our district the OASIS program is full of the problem kids who can't handle the day in and day out grind.

[DigglerontheHoof 21200]

16 hours ago, Loco said:

that's one of my concerns, you don't just have to guard the property (and grounds) when kids are on campus, you have to keep it sterile 24/7.  Not only that, perimeter defenses need to be robust so a determined shooter doesn't hop a fence and go on a rampage.

 

A lot of resources will be burned if you're serious about hardening the schools.

If you're using the word "school" and "perimeter defense" in the same sentence, we're already fucked.  Turning schools into forts can't be the fucking answer.   If it is; we've already lost and Brisket is right....just a matter of time before we circle the toilet bowl of societies. 

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

We had a good run.

[DigglerontheHoof 21200]

45 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Wait...what?

No shit, motherfucker wants to block boys' testosterone?  Jesus tittyfucking Christ.

[Brisketexan 105151]

15 hours ago, RandomIdoit said:

These are a few things that I would be in favor of that would be easy to implement:

• Metal detectors/bag inspection at designated entrances. Some schools only need one, some will need more. All other doors to the school are fire exits. My experience at security at ABIA this morning -- I was able to get up to the front of the line right away, but it took forever to get the 8 people in front of me through.  Nevermind the hundreds of people backed up behind me -- cemented my thought that this approach is absolutely 100% unworkable.  An airport/TSA process every day to start school?  With hundreds, sometimes over 1,000, students?  Absolutely unworkable.  And dear god, the cost, both in capital and having to man them every day.
• Student Ids scanned when the student enters the school, and scanned when they leave. If a student is scanned in, and they are not in class or accounted for (office, nurse, lunch), security will be notified to locate the student.  Sure....but not much of a security measure.
• Distinguishable active shooter alarm that is different than the fire alarm. We don't want students walking out of the classroom.  I like this idea.  Thought of it myself the other day, seeing it repeated tells me I'm not nuts for thinking it.
• All classroom doors closed during class and locked from the outside when the door is closed. Can be opened from the inside or with a key.  Also could be workable, and relatively affordable.  Hardening individual class doors and making them lockable/locked could create a decent shelter.
• Clear backpacks.  Maybe.  Ridiculous that we need to think about it, but there it is

See some thoughts above.  Any suggestion of turning the process of entering school into something like the process of entering the secure area of an airport is nuts.  It's beyond unworkable and unaffordable.

[sachick 1189]

I hope counselors and psychologist are included in the money needed to "secure" our schools because having to go to school in a prison is going to fuck with some kids heads.

[Bevo 13577]

1 hour ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

No shit, motherfucker wants to block boys' testosterone?  Jesus tittyfucking Christ.

Well, I was joking but in theory it would probably work. Steers are a lot calmer than bulls and it seemed to have a similar effect in The History of the World.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

1 minute ago, Bevo said:

Well, I was joking but in theory it would probably work. Steers are a lot calmer than bulls and it seemed to have a similar effect in The History of the World.

[Dewey 3286]

Tremendous ideas, my question is, What do we do with these things once they are released from "school"? An after school program of some sort?

[Johnny Sack 8397]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

See some thoughts above.  Any suggestion of turning the process of entering school into something like the process of entering the secure area of an airport is nuts.  It's beyond unworkable and unaffordable.

And it’s dangerous. 

[RandomIdoit 655]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

See some thoughts above.  Any suggestion of turning the process of entering school into something like the process of entering the secure area of an airport is nuts.  It's beyond unworkable and unaffordable.

You have staff doing the bag checks and then you have the campus police free to monitor and protect the lines. I don't see that as unworkable or unaffordable. 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

6 hours ago, 'stache said:

Some of them, yes.  How many parents do you think recognize their kid may be disturbed but are without insurance or income to pay out-of-pocket and therefore cannot seek help?  

 Nowhere near enough to justify the  kind of commitment you’re proposing. I’m all for profiling these kids to find the at risk individuals and then mental health counseling the hell out of them. 

I don’t think mass killers will seek out those health services on their own accord nor do I think it’s a problem of destitute kids/parents. 

Speaking from complete ignorance here, but is there a trend line where many of the mass killers have been from homes where warning signs were noticed, but no one could afford to do anything?  

Edited May 21, 2018 by Bobby_Batronic

[Brisketexan 105151]

You have staff doing the bag checks and then you have the campus police free to monitor and protect the lines. I don't see that as unworkable or unaffordable. 

Write up the budget for that. Include metal detectors for the bags, and for the students. Hire and train the staff to man them. Make sure there are enough to get all the kids in the door within 15 minutes to keep them from being tardy.

Now...do that for all the schools.

Seriously, have you seen an airport line lately? I was there just this morning. With two lines, they were processing about 2-3 people per minute. So, how many machines will we need to process the 1500 kids at my son’s school? The cost and logistics are insane.

[ABSR 5315]

6 hours ago, Bevo said:

 Testosterone blockers could help but would never be implemented.

 

I guess you figure if they took yours, it would only be fair?

[Bullneck 19101]

On 5/20/2018 at 2:25 PM, South Austin said:

We stand. No promises, no demands.

There's no point in asking, you'll get no reply,

I just remember, I don't decide

[skipperj 377]

27 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Write up the budget for that. Include metal detectors for the bags, and for the students. Hire and train the staff to man them. Make sure there are enough to get all the kids in the door within 15 minutes to keep them from being tardy.

Now...do that for all the schools.

Seriously, have you seen an airport line lately? I was there just this morning. With two lines, they were processing about 2-3 people per minute. So, how many machines will we need to process the 1500 kids at my son’s school? The cost and logistics are insane.

Don’t forget, unlike an airport that has many different flight times, most of those 1500 have to be at school at the same time.

[Handcruser 2805]

I don’t have a great solution. Not sure there is one.

But I would look hard at the following:
1. Uniforms - simple school color T-shirt and jeans/shorts.
2. No backpacks. Let the kids have study hall and provide curriculum online as well. No reason to have backpacks.

Up north we have the issue of large coats that can conceal weapons. Not sure what to do about that.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[TXSG8R 3362]

1 hour ago, longhornmatt said:

The cat is way out of the bag on that, though.   It would help to cut the cord on the internet where they are bombarded with sexual content 24/7 to feed the obsession, and where they have outlets to anonymously commiserate with other bitter people and radicalize themselves. How do you actually do that, though?  Parents can make changes to how they monitor their kids, but you won’t really be able to keep them from accessing the net.

 And, frankly, it would help if our entertainment programs weren’t so fixated on sex to where they make kids feel like people are losers with failed lives if they aren’t racking up large numbers of sexual partners at all times.  Not saying entertainment should be Puritan, but America is in this weird place now where sex is a much bigger cultural topic than it should be no matter what side of the fence you’re on.  One camp is too fixated on making it taboo, and the other camp goes too far the other way.  But either way it’s THE MOST IMPORTANT THING EVER here in a way that it’s just not in many other cultures.

Neither the availability of internet nor content of media will change, though, and maybe they shouldn’t.  Little shits who shoot up schools shouldn’t ruin freedom for the rest of us.

In Germany you start drinking beer at 16 and you see titties on broadcast TV and in print media regularly. Porn is just as available, and prostitution is legal. They also play the same video games we do. The one thing they don’t do is coddle children, they promote self-reliance and responsibility way earlier than we do. 

[tbone_ 14126]

In Germany you start drinking beer at 16 and you see titties on broadcast TV and in print media regularly. Porn is just as available, and prostitution is legal. They also play the same video games we do. The one thing they don’t do is coddle children, they promote self-reliance and responsibility way earlier than we do. 

 

This. We have some neighbors from Switzerland. Their kids are 10x more self sufficient that everyone else. It's hilarious and sad at the same time to watch everyone else struggle with this.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13514]

7 minutes ago, tbone_ said:

 

This. We have some neighbors from Switzerland. Their kids are 10x more self sufficient that everyone else. It's hilarious and sad at the same time to watch everyone else struggle with this.

Some cultures raise kids, others raise adults.

[JohnnyRage 1617]

If we are throwing money around, smaller class sizes would make it harder on the attacker.

[SDG 3319]

4 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Some cultures raise kids, others raise adults.

Utah has to legalize “free range” parenting.  When many of us were kids that was called growing up...  

[RandomIdoit 655]

7 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Write up the budget for that. Include metal detectors for the bags, and for the students. Hire and train the staff to man them. Make sure there are enough to get all the kids in the door within 15 minutes to keep them from being tardy.

Now...do that for all the schools.

Seriously, have you seen an airport line lately? I was there just this morning. With two lines, they were processing about 2-3 people per minute. So, how many machines will we need to process the 1500 kids at my son’s school? The cost and logistics are insane.

That's what bonds are for. Do people want the kids safe or not? You don't have to have the full body scanners that the airport uses. Just use the walk though ones that they have at the theme parks. That should be a huge deterrent. You also have police officers outside to protect the students in line. Or we can just complain about the cost and do nothing.

[RayDog 682]

Where I live they wand and bag check every entrance of shopping malls and large stores. They also have security screening on the outer doors of airports. It is not that difficult.

In schools some staff would only need to work a door for 30 minutes at the start of the day so you can use current staff for some of it.

One story I read said we could buy a $4000 portal monitor for every school for under a billion dollars. If we use Trump's wall money we could make schools much safer instead

[Loco 3752]

5 hours ago, RayDog said:

Where I live they wand and bag check every entrance of shopping malls and large stores. They also have security screening on the outer doors of airports. It is not that difficult.

In schools some staff would only need to work a door for 30 minutes at the start of the day so you can use current staff for some of it.

One story I read said we could buy a $4000 portal monitor for every school for under a billion dollars. If we use Trump's wall money we could make schools much safer instead

IMHO that would be a massive waste without other measures.  Even if it was effective, what stops a kid from planting a gun on campus late Sunday night?  Or  like others have pointed out, just show up with the gun and shoot people in line or just shoot the teacher(lol)/security person at the entrance and proceed.

 

These attacks are planned out in advance by kids willing to do the horrible things to succeed.   If you think a chain-link fence or a gym teacher watching kids get wanded will be effective, I think you have not really thought it through.  

Even if you can harden the school building, pay for it, build it, what happens to football/baseball/field sports?   Do we just end those or build domes we can harden too?

In 2010 there were 98,800+/- public schools in the US, does anyone think effective measures could be put in place for less than $1mil / school  ??  I don't

if so 98,800 x $1,000,000 = $98,800,000,000   So NEW DEAL scale effort...  for what level result?  also BONDS!

[Loco 3752]

18 hours ago, Bevo said:

Well, I was joking but in theory it would probably work. Steers are a lot calmer than bulls and it seemed to have a similar effect in The History of the World.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13514]

We can throw enough money at the problem to keep kids from being shot inside the school.  But It would do little to solve the problem of outside the school, buses or even the bus stop.   Some of the solutions also require the need to hire many people or repurpose the current employees to be part time security.   All of these solutions also have the impact of pulling resources (money and people) from the classroom when many people think it’s failing already because of a lack of resources.

the idea of more online classes is intriguing but I agree we don’t want a generation of kids that don’t learn to interact with others outside of their families until age 18.   But maybe the future world doesn’t require much physical interaction. 

[Brisketexan 105151]

That's what bonds are for. Do people want the kids safe or not? You don't have to have the full body scanners that the airport uses. Just use the walk though ones that they have at the theme parks. That should be a huge deterrent. You also have police officers outside to protect the students in line. Or we can just complain about the cost and do nothing.

Oh. Bonds. Free money.

Seriously?

And again, we’re not talking about 1500 people over the course of a day. We’re talking about a system that has to process them in about 15-20 minutes. On top of retrofitting numerous campuses to create a single point of entry.

Sorry, the logistics are awful. If we’re going to that level, then fuck it, shut it down. We’ve lost.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13514]

Don't some schools today require all students to walk through metal detectors today?   What is their process and infrastructure?   The question would be whether that could be replicated elsewhere or not.

I also question how you can ask that many students to walk thru metal detectors in that short of a time.  And we have all seen the problems at the airport when 1 person sets off the detector.  Grinds the process to a halt unless you also have Team B on ready to wand that person individually.   btw, I'm not saying this isn't a problem that can't be overcome but it will be a problem.  BONDS!

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

None of these security measures get to the core of the issue. Boys are aggressive by nature and need an outlet for that hyperactivity. I like the idea of segregating boys/girls in school. Boys learn completely different than girls.

[skipperj 377]

Maybe we could get well regulated militias to protect the schools?

[phdhorn 6224]

2 minutes ago, skipperj said:

Maybe we could get well regulated militias to protect the schools?

I'm for it

My high school had a rifle/shooting club.  We liked to shoot shit.  You would probably make sure if you were going to shoot up a school that the Rifle Club wasn't meeting that night.

[atomheartbevo 89675]

On 5/20/2018 at 2:40 PM, Horn_Spanker said:

I was right!  Told the wife when it happened that if the kid had gotten laid, he wouldn't have done it.  Now we lean he was rejected by some female he had an interest in.  I know when I was that age, my largest angst was lack of female attention.

If I had access to decent internet and more importantly, internet porn, as a young lad, wouldn't have cared as much about getting laid.

Instead I had to rely on the porn fairy leaving Playboys and Penthouses in hidden places.

[atomheartbevo 89675]

On 5/21/2018 at 7:55 AM, Bobby_Batronic said:

So you think these kids will seek out mental healthcare?  Or that their parents will drag them in for sessions they aren’t interested in?

You'd be surprised how many parents are told by teachers to have their kids evaluated, and the parents don't want to because of the stigma or because they are lazy.

[High Plains Drifter 11050]

On 5/20/2018 at 1:10 PM, Loco said:

An attempt at a discussion of the real life problems with this solution.

No politics please, unless you're an asshole

Disclosure:

• I have a daughter in Middle School and a son in High School in the 6th largest school district in the US (Broward County Florida)
• I bought a shotgun the day I turned 18 and continue to own a WIDE variety of guns (kept locked in a gun safe)
• I have been on a variety of campuses all over the county/state for sporting events and to judge "debate" tournaments

 

1. Infrastructure impacts
   • Reduce entrances and exist to schools - Ideally students would be sent through a metal detector or screened in some manor for weapons
   • Eliminate sight lines onto campuses - Shooting from parking lot, adjacent field, or tower
   • Better communication method for reporting active shooter (gun shot alarm system) 
   • Hardened classroom doors, locks, and windows or Safe room
   • Separation of arriving buses or Security checks prior to kids entering each bus
   • ID and location services on student IDs -  facial recognition systems
   • 24/7 active monitoring of all fields and areas that students access during the day (can't stash weapons for latter use)
   • All sporting events and club activities must be secured in a similar manor as above (football, baseball, soccer, swimming)
   • Secure fire alarm area for students to gather in event of a fire/ fire drill (MSD & SFHS)
   • Weapons lockers for armed security or teachers (don't want to coach football with a glock in your shorts?)
2. Logistics
   • Need to be able to move 2-3k kids through security at least twice a day (might need to lengthen school hours to accommodate security)
   • Have to inspect all deliveries and school maintenance workers/ vehicles (food, janitorial, coaches, PTA)
   • Increase staff to secure school perimeter 24/7 and conduct security check points
   • Develop weapon training and qualification standards for security/teachers
   • Conduct psych reviews for any personnel carrying a weapon on school ground

 

So those are just a few warm up items...   

• Who is going to pay for this? 
• How quickly could these schools be retro fit or built?
• Will private schools be required to make these changes?
• How in the hell are you going to secure a football game, prom, or sporting event?
• Does anyone really think our kids should be raised like this?
• Where is the marginal sweet spot and how do you defend it after the next school shooting....  this seems very slippery slope.

 

I just get frustrated when you hear talking heads say "well the answer is to harden schools..." without any thought or discussion about the real world impacts.  I just assume that they just want to do a token visible thing and don't really give a shit if it works well or makes sense.  The worst possible combination is something stupid and wasteful then call it a day.   IE Clearbacks...  which are a thing, but only at MSD, not any other school in Broward county...yeah team!

 

also sorry for the rant...

 

 

Retrofitting schools to meet those criteria would cost millions, per school. Districts don't even have enough money to pay teachers a decent wage. And securing a football stadium in a similar manner would be pretty much impossible.

[atomheartbevo 89675]

15 hours ago, skipperj said:

Don’t forget, unlike an airport that has many different flight times, most of those 1500 have to be at school at the same time.

If you're wanting to kill your classmates, there is nothing more appealing than a large line/group of kids waiting to get into school.  I can't believe so many people, including our politicians, want to bunch kids up at just a few entrances.  You don't even need a gun at that point, just a car or truck.

I really am surprised that the politicians and various groups with skin in the game are not going hard on improving mental health access and care.   Nobody is asking for a return to the times when you could get Uncle Ted locked up because he's wearing dresses and insists on being called Theodora, or when you come from a prominent Boston family and your daughter is a little too progressive so you have her brains scrambled.

It could be that they don't want to deal with the fallout over whether or not guns should be allowed in households where somebody is being kept in check by medication.  It's already a gray area with felons - if a felon is in a household with an unsecured gun (that is, a gun that they could access), they and the gun owner could find themselves in legal hot water.

 

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

It is amazing how much pressure is on kids today. 30 years ago, you had so many options. If you were smart, college was accessible and cheap. Or if you desired, you could go into a trade school and come out with a decent job & easily support a family. If not, there were enough manufacturing jobs that you could get by and work your way up.

Today, college is ridiculously expensive and no guarantee of a job. Trade schools are still available, but the stigma is negative. And if you can't do any of this, good luck raising a family on $10 bucks an hour with no benefits.

I don't have an answer, but this problem will get worse before it gets better.

[atomheartbevo 89675]

15 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

It is amazing how much pressure is on kids today. 30 years ago, you had so many options. If you were smart, college was accessible and cheap. Or if you desired, you could go into a trade school and come out with a decent job & easily support a family. If not, there were enough manufacturing jobs that you could get by and work your way up.

Today, college is ridiculously expensive and no guarantee of a job. Trade schools are still available, but the stigma is negative. And if you can't do any of this, good luck raising a family on $10 bucks an hour with no benefits.

I don't have an answer, but this problem will get worse before it gets better.

Military could get a lot of these kids on their feet right out of school.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

10 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Military could get a lot of these kids on their feet right out of school.

No question. If I were King Of America, 18 year olds would be required to do 2 years of service (Military or volunteer work) prior to going to college. In exchange for the two years of service, we'd extend "high school" for two more years as a free option (for those who choose it). It would take two paths: Industrial education (essentially job training) or "pre-college" (get all of your core courses out of the way in order to finish your 4 year degree by only having to pay for 2 additional years). 

[sachick 1189]

16 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Write up the budget for that. Include metal detectors for the bags, and for the students. Hire and train the staff to man them. Make sure there are enough to get all the kids in the door within 15 minutes to keep them from being tardy.

Now...do that for all the schools.

Seriously, have you seen an airport line lately? I was there just this morning. With two lines, they were processing about 2-3 people per minute. So, how many machines will we need to process the 1500 kids at my son’s school? The cost and logistics are insane.

Not to mention that some schools can barely pay their teachers much less help teachers pay for supplies. So all of a sudden everyone is going to be happy to pay higher taxes to pay for all this.

This is all so stupid. All these hoops we're supposed to jump through to make schools safer but people refuse to even consider the easiest solution that would have the most immediate impact because god forbid we make it slightly harder for you to get a gun.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

3 minutes ago, sachick said:

This is all so stupid. All these hoops we're supposed to jump through to make schools safer but people refuse to even consider the easiest solution that would have the most immediate impact because god forbid we make it slightly harder for you to get a gun.

I'm a huge supporter of the 2nd amendment and agree with you. Seems like many of these kids are using their parents guns, though. 

I've said this on other threads, but some simple solutions would be:

• Limit magazine size
• Restrict gun ownership to 21 and over. 
• Stiffer punishments for gun owners who's guns are used to commit crimes (lock that shit up, morons)

[sachick 1189]

9 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

I'm a huge supporter of the 2nd amendment and agree with you. Seems like many of these kids are using their parents guns, though. 

I've said this on other threads, but some simple solutions would be:

• Limit magazine size
• Restrict gun ownership to 21 and over. 
• Stiffer punishments for gun owners who's guns are used to commit crimes (lock that shit up, morons)

Those are perfectly reasonable and I think a majority of the country would support these restrictions but the problem is that no one in congress is willing to come to the table and talk about some simple solutions. And by no one, I mean those that are in the NRA's pocket.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

17 minutes ago, sachick said:

Those are perfectly reasonable and I think a majority of the country would support these restrictions but the problem is that no one in congress is willing to come to the table and talk about some simple solutions. And by no one, I mean those that are in the NRA's pocket.

I don't think the NRA throws enough money around to move the dial. The congressmen and women who WON'T vote for reasonable legislation are from Far Right states (read Alabama) who think the 2nd amendment is actually part of the 10 commandments. 

[Aqua Buddha 14598]

17 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Write up the budget for that. Include metal detectors for the bags, and for the students. Hire and train the staff to man them. Make sure there are enough to get all the kids in the door within 15 minutes to keep them from being tardy.

Now...do that for all the schools.

Seriously, have you seen an airport line lately? I was there just this morning. With two lines, they were processing about 2-3 people per minute. So, how many machines will we need to process the 1500 kids at my son’s school? The cost and logistics are insane.

That and you have a large block of voters in this country who would refuse to pay $1 more in taxes to do this.  They'll expect to add it on to the teachers and expect them to do it for free and if they want a raise, they're a bunch of damned union thugs.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

2 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

You'd be surprised how many parents are told by teachers to have their kids evaluated, and the parents don't want to because of the stigma or because they are lazy.

That was kinda my point. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13514]

2 hours ago, skipperj said:

Maybe we could get well regulated militias to protect the schools?

Dan Patrick accidentally changed this to a well-run militia on the Sunday talk shows.  I guess the word, regulated, can't come out of his mouth.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

3 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Dan Patrick accidentally changed this to a well-run militia on the Sunday talk shows.  I guess the word, regulated, can't come out of his mouth.

I know one thing for certain. I give zero fucks about Dan Patrick's opinion on anything outside of sports. And I give little fucks about his opinion about sports.

[skipperj 377]

I wonder if he even watches sports? I’ve certainly never heard him comment on them.