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School hardening a simple solution for simpletons

Loco

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Jiggy-Z

Jiggy-Z 3432

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1. Gun laws:  Go for low hanging fruit. Tighten up on the nasty stuff where easiest.. One of these days a school shooting is going to have 30-60 victims rather than 10-15. Dude may decide just to bring the shotgun and pistol rather than a harder to get assault rifle/gun.

2. School infrastructure is hard.  There are fire, storm and other hazards that are more frequent that will carry much more risk if a school is locked down.

3. Take a good look at the other industrialized countries practices. Everything from demographics, mental , health, gun laws, to infrastructure.  Odds are they have thought about this more than we have.

4. Teach students to be nice. 

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sachick

sachick 1189

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56 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

That was kinda my point. 

And it's not that easy to get an appointment, even with insurance. These counselors are booked. I have insurance and want my son to see someone but the 3 people I've contacted so far have no openings. So not only do we need parents willing to see that their kids need someone to talk and to make it an affordable options somehow, we need more professionals in the area of children.

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atomheartbevo

atomheartbevo 89675

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2 hours ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

That was kinda my point. 

Yeah, my wife had to deal with this shit as a teacher. Teachers are only allowed to say so much about a kid having problems, and she had plenty of kids over the years that clearly had problems, but the parents would do nothing because they don’t want him feeling different, or that’s just how boys are, or we are having a rough patch and he’s acting out , etc. all the while these problems are following the kid from grade-to-grade. 

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Aqua Buddha

Aqua Buddha 14598

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21 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Yeah, my wife had to deal with this shit as a teacher. Teachers are only allowed to say so much about a kid having problems, and she had plenty of kids over the years that clearly had problems, but the parents would do nothing because they don’t want him feeling different, or that’s just how boys are, or we are having a rough patch and he’s acting out , etc. all the while these problems are following the kid from grade-to-grade. 

Yeah, and Special Ed is the dumping ground for a lot of them.  Guns have absolutely no business in a sped classroom.  I can think of a million things that can go wrong.

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Pancho

Pancho 44809

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9 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

You'd be surprised how many parents are told by teachers to have their kids evaluated, and the parents don't want to because of the stigma or because they are lazy.

I don't purposely think you're saying it's either because of the stigma or because they don't want to (either/or fallacy) so I don't want you to think of this as an attack, but there are other reasons they don't get evaluated as well.  Keeping in mind I teach at a 2-year, and even when they get to this level you can tell who needs the help of our Disability Services office.  One of the reasons some have never gone is because they don't have the money.  And I honestly think some don't get any help because they truly believe there's nothing wrong. 

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RandomIdoit

RandomIdoit 655

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12 hours ago, Brisketexan said:


Oh. Bonds. Free money.

Seriously?

And again, we’re not talking about 1500 people over the course of a day. We’re talking about a system that has to process them in about 15-20 minutes. On top of retrofitting numerous campuses to create a single point of entry.

Sorry, the logistics are awful. If we’re going to that level, then fuck it, shut it down. We’ve lost.

You do realize bonds have to be voted for right? Like when a new school is proposed, a bond is voted on so they can have the funding. If the majority want to pay for the security upgrades, then it will pass. If not, then they will have to figure out something else to protect the students. Personally, I would pay the extra taxes to go towards security at my children's schools.

The logistics are awful but smarter people than me can and should figure it out. Or should they pout and say it's too hard?

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hayden_horn

hayden_horn 11362

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32 minutes ago, tbone_ said:

Parents should go to jail if their kid does something bad with one of their guns.

 

21 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Or cars.  

i'm not honestly sure about either of these, as long as reasonable efforts are taken. i have a gun safe for my handgun and shotgun ammunition. the single shot 410 is in the top of my closet, hidden where my 11 and 9 year old can't get to it. the handgun is locked up. the keys are hidden, and i have a combo on the safe. if by some chance, my teenage son in the future find the key to the gun safe and they open it and do something terrible, i think that the fact that it was locked up should count. my wife and i hang our car keys by the door. that's far less reasonable of a means of protection than the gun safe.

that is, unless johnny was being sarcastic. 

that said, i think we need to discuss the securing of guns. my ancient 410 is sitting on a shelf, but it should be locked up, and i'll own that, despite the fact that it is broken in half and unloaded and the ammo locked up. i don't know what the answer is. people want o be reactionary and say "lock up the careless gun owners, OMG they didn't lock their shit up!"

but honestly, sometimes shit happens. sometimes a shithead kid in a bad place grabs your car keys and goes and mows down a bunch of people. you aren't an accessory to that murder because you hung your keys next to the door. similarly, if you are a responsible gun owner, take precautions, and something terrible happens, then...what? my kid just bought a fully automatic airsoft gun that is modeled after an AK-47. i didn't think it would be as powerful as it is, to be honest. we don't have any young children in the house (his brother has a healthy respect for guns as well); should i lock that shit up?

it's all very disheartening. and all we seem to want to do as a society is to find someone to punish. i think that's a part of our problem, but i haven't quite been able to articulate why.

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hayden_horn

hayden_horn 11362

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16 minutes ago, SDG said:

@hayden_horn They have trigger locks, get one for your shot gun.  I posted the Nola law article in the other thread and in most states you can be charged if one of your children gets ahold of a gun that you didn't properly secure.  

don't know how i forgot to mention that trigger lock. nevertheless, it's definitely easily overcome by a member of the household.  

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Johnny Sack

Johnny Sack 8397

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I mentioned this early, but before I had a safe I used a gun locker thing that bolted to my stud beams.  You’d need to bust the dry wall and cut the studs to get to the guns. Bought three of them from Sportsman’s Guide for less than $100 each.  I still have one in my closet for a few overflow guns like a single shot ten gauge I inherited and a few pump action shotguns I inherited and have never shot. They don’t fit in my safe. 

Edited by Johnny Sack
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orangeut

orangeut 212

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Just for thought and to kick around.   Why has this problem just happened in the U.S. in the last 20 years?   We have always had guns in this country.  Back years ago when I was in school, you never had someone go into a school and shoot 5,10 or 20 people, and there have always been guns.

So, what is it?   Could it be that we have come to the conclusion that if things are not going your way, you shoot up a school?   Why?   

I think part of the problem is the devaluation of human life.  Maybe I am wrong.  

I've never played some of the graphic video games that are out now, but I have heard some of them are so graphic that you can be desensitized  to violence by playing them   Again, I don't know because of inexperience.   

But I do know something has changed in the U.S. over the past couple of decades because never did anything like this happen 20-30 years ago.  So what is it?

 

 

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RandomIdoit

RandomIdoit 655

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17 minutes ago, orangeut said:

Just for thought and to kick around.   Why has this problem just happened in the U.S. in the last 20 years?   We have always had guns in this country.  Back years ago when I was in school, you never had someone go into a school and shoot 5,10 or 20 people, and there have always been guns.

So, what is it?   Could it be that we have come to the conclusion that if things are not going your way, you shoot up a school?   Why?   

I think part of the problem is the devaluation of human life.  Maybe I am wrong.  

I've never played some of the graphic video games that are out now, but I have heard some of them are so graphic that you can be desensitized  to violence by playing them   Again, I don't know because of inexperience.   

But I do know something has changed in the U.S. over the past couple of decades because never did anything like this happen 20-30 years ago.  So what is it?

 

 

Parents want to be their kids' friend and not a parent. Kids are entitled and the parents do not discipline their kids like they used to. Kids grew up in the "everyone gets a trophy" world and do not know how to deal with failure and rejection. They also lack coping skills to deal with stressful situations. They are too easily offended and soft.

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Cheeseweasel

Cheeseweasel 26438

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9 hours ago, RandomIdoit said:

 They also lack coping skills to deal with stressful situations. 

Not just the kids. I deal with adults every day who can't cope in stressful situations.I'm not sure what changed in our society, but this seems to be the root of the problem. We've become soft and snowflakey. The smallest issue sends people into tears/rage. Hell, spend 10 minutes on FaceBook and you will realize how "offended" we are at shit we used to laugh at and ignore. Our future isn't going to be pretty.

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Cheeseweasel

Cheeseweasel 26438

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6 minutes ago, Dewey said:

There needs to be compassion taught in schools, a core class, 1-12. Teach children at a young age how deal with others and themselves, to help others.

Compassion is emulated more than learned. If daddy hates the jews/blicks/crackers, so will the son. Social media is going to be the death of this once great nation.

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Celery Man

Celery Man 20961

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2 minutes ago, Dewey said:

There needs to be compassion taught in schools, a core class, 1-12. Teach children at a young age how deal with others and themselves, to help others.

minor sidenote, but functional compassion or empathy is an extremely underrated skill that should be emphasized more.  people who are  the habit of wondering why someone is being a shithead, or thinking about why someone is asking for a bit of information and coloring in the response appropriately are often rewarded and have easier lives than people who get into brawls at taco bell.

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tbone_

tbone_ 14126

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I agree 100% on compassion, but I think that's on the parents not the school.

The real question that needs to be answered, and has been mentioned a few times already, is why are we as a society turning out so many more high school aged serial killers than we have in the past.

If we don't figure it out we will end up with highly unpopular solutions because no one likes anything that's been proposed.

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Cheeseweasel

Cheeseweasel 26438

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15 minutes ago, tbone_ said:

I agree 100% on compassion, but I think that's on the parents not the school.

The real question that needs to be answered, and has been mentioned a few times already, is why are we as a society turning out so many more high school aged serial killers than we have in the past.

If we don't figure it out we will end up with highly unpopular solutions because no one likes anything that's been proposed.

There's not 1 answer which will make solving it more difficult. Here are a few of the things that I believe contribute to it:

  • 2 working parents. Kids come home to an empty house, parents are stressed out trying to make ends meet, dinner isn't a "sit down & discuss your day" meal anymore.
  • Social media. It's easy to spew filth when you are anonymous. The more you do it, the more you think it's normal to hate your fellow man for "likes". Just imagine how popular I will be if I REALLY hate people!
  • Cable News 24/7. Seeing talking heads making people famous who've done nothing worthwhile is tempting for a kid who's "nothing".
  • Everyone gets a trophy mentality: Everyone is awesome! Except you don't feel awesome because you know you haven't done anything worth praise. Add teen angst to this and mix.
  • Gun culture. We teach our kids that guns are cool. And cool kids have guns. Bigger guns = cooler you!
  • Hopelessness: This generation is the first who are NOT going to be better off than their parents (thanks baby boomers). That's a heavy burden.
  • Pussification of males. Everything "masculine" is now seen as a negative. Young boys need to be boys so they can become men. If you push that down, it will explode. 
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Cheeseweasel

Cheeseweasel 26438

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1 minute ago, Helobious said:

Usually, any attempt at compassion or understanding these days is shouted down as “softness/weakness/PC cops bullshit”. And people wonder why few have empathy.

Also true. Our politics has become so hate filled. You're not 100% for kicking out all Mexicans? Fuck you, you love MS13. You voted for Trump? Fuck you, you are a moron. You think Obama was a decent president? Fuck you, commie. 

Everything has become black or white. The grey areas that we truly live in are seen as weakness. Our politicians fuel this for votes and we eat it up. CNN/FOX are having a field day with it. 

Hell, spend 5 minutes in the CR and you'll need a shower due to all the shit that's thrown around.

If you sit down with 99% of the population, you'd probably agree on 95% of things. But it's the 5% that THEY (Media, politicians, preachers) want to point out to divide us. 

 

/rant

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Chuckie Finster

Chuckie Finster 22694

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2 hours ago, Cheeseweasel said:

There's not 1 answer which will make solving it more difficult. Here are a few of the things that I believe contribute to it:

  • 2 working parents. Kids come home to an empty house, parents are stressed out trying to make ends meet, dinner isn't a "sit down & discuss your day" meal anymore.
  • Social media. It's easy to spew filth when you are anonymous. The more you do it, the more you think it's normal to hate your fellow man for "likes". Just imagine how popular I will be if I REALLY hate people!
  • Cable News 24/7. Seeing talking heads making people famous who've done nothing worthwhile is tempting for a kid who's "nothing".
  • Everyone gets a trophy mentality: Everyone is awesome! Except you don't feel awesome because you know you haven't done anything worth praise. Add teen angst to this and mix.
  • Gun culture. We teach our kids that guns are cool. And cool kids have guns. Bigger guns = cooler you!
  • Hopelessness: This generation is the first who are NOT going to be better off than their parents (thanks baby boomers). That's a heavy burden.
  • Pussification of males. Everything "masculine" is now seen as a negative. Young boys need to be boys so they can become men. If you push that down, it will explode. 

Personally, I think the answer is much simpler: Columbine set a precedent.

Since that point, the thought of shooting up your school has entered the minds of teens across the country as a reasonable possibility.  Yes, a lot of the things you mentioned need to be addressed, but I think the reason we used to not see school shootings is simply because it wasn't an option that troubled teens considered.  I don't think angry, vengeful teenagers are a new development, I just think there's a terrible option now on the menu for them.  To me, this thought is more troubling than any single societal issue, because you can't put that genie back in the bottle.

(And yes, I'm aware that there were shootings before Columbine, but the coverage of that one went mainstream to an unprecedented degree.)

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52-80

52-80 19161

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On 5/23/2018 at 4:39 AM, orangeut said:

...

I've never played some of the graphic video games that are out now, but I have heard some of them are so graphic that you can be desensitized  to violence by playing them   Again, I don't know because of inexperience.   

...

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Shmitty said:

I think this discussion is all about jumping through all sorts of hoops, etc to avoid the obvious and more direct solution.  But pointing it out what it is would just make me an asshole...

 

What's assholeish about introducing kids to humane, wholesome video games?

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Loco

Loco 3752

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6 hours ago, Shmitty said:

I think this discussion is all about jumping through all sorts of hoops, etc to avoid the obvious and more direct solution.  But pointing it out what it is would just make me an asshole...

Not necessarily, pointing out just reveals that you are an asshole.  Not to mention this thread is not about solutions to school shootings, it's a discussion  of one potential solution that is oft portrayed as "low hanging fruit'.

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bernorange

bernorange 8362

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On 5/23/2018 at 8:45 AM, Cheeseweasel said:

...

Gun culture. We teach our kids that guns are cool. And cool kids have guns. Bigger guns = cooler you!

....

Maybe it's a topic better suited for a separate thread as it's a tangent, but I would like to explore it a bit.  I assume that you are using a big tent "we" (global to society as a whole), but I'm not sure that is really a fair assessment.  There are definitely sub-cultures in society where this is true, but I don't think it's true on the macro level when looking at society.  Certainly, some genres in the music industry glorify guns, violence and self destructive behaviors.  Same with other media like movies and video games, but I really don't think kids have much difficulty discerning fantasy from reality in that respect (I think music has a stronger influence on [or reflection of] tribal identity than movies/video games).

I own several guns.  I've brought my kids to the gun range and taught them about guns and firearm safety.  There is a local gun range that has "juniors day" once a month where the range provides guns and ammo for kids (ages 12-18) to shoot for *free.  *free because they do have to sit through a 2 hour safety class before they are allowed to hit the range under strict supervision.  It's a good program.  Nowhere in this real world have my kids been exposed to a lesson that "guns are cool and cool kids have guns".  I'm sure there are places in this country where that lesson might be culturally pervasive, but it doesn't ring true where I live.  And, with that said, some kids at my kid's schools have recently been arrested and charged with making terroristic threats.

I don't think "gun culture" has anything at all to do with the decision matrix that some kids are using to make really bad choices.  I do think kids are not receiving the attention they have in eras past from immediate family (parents) due to economic realities.  I also think that social media plays a big part in exacerbating negative social behaviors or disaffection/alienation.  But it also empowers the disaffected to command people's attention for a few fleeting moments for a terrible price.

 

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Cheeseweasel

Cheeseweasel 26438

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1 minute ago, bernorange said:

I don't think "gun culture" has anything at all to do with the decision matrix that some kids are using to make really bad choices.  I do think kids are not receiving the attention they have in eras past from immediate family (parents) due to economic realities.  I also think that social media plays a big part in exacerbating negative social behaviors or disaffection/alienation.  But it also empowers the disaffected to command people's attention for a few fleeting moments for a terrible price.

What you have said here is great & I agree 100% that you've pointed out contributing factors.

You pulled out 1 point in a list of many that I posted. In no way is the "gun culture" solely responsible for the uptick in school shootings, however, I believe it is part of the mix. Teenage boys are highly susceptible to influence around them (peers, media, etc.) and when they see YouTube videos of people shooting/blowing up stuff, it surely influences them. Perhaps "Gun Culture" is the wrong term.

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bernorange

bernorange 8362

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I might argue that if we really had a strong gun culture - where more parents and kids went through gun safety classes like the local juniors day program that my kids have attended, it would provide an effective counter/bulwark to the influence of media (social media/youtube included) on the issue.  Maybe high school curriculums should teach kids about responsible handling of firearms, and alcohol, and porn, but not all at the same time.

yes, the last sentence was a mostly a joke

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Helobious

Helobious 9454

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15 hours ago, miguelito said:

NEISD here in SA announced that middle and high schoolers will need clear backpacks starting next year.  Of course, band cases, purses, and athletic bags are still OK. 

That's such a stupid "solution". If you pack enough shit in a clear backpack you can still conceal a gun. Also, I can't think of a big school shooting where the shooter hid his guns in a backpack. I can think of at least 2 where the shooter hid his gun in a guitar case (Northern Illinois & Parkland). Then you have Columbine where the shooters made no attempt to conceal their weapons. 

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Helobious

Helobious 9454

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14 hours ago, Cheeseweasel said:

The thought of having a gun safety program in school would be met with histrionics (unfortunately). Hell, I was on the Rifle Team in HS. Does that even exist anymore?

Yes, JROTC programs still have them. However I wasn't in high school that long ago, and the big thing for the JROTC kids was making the Drill team. No one really cared about Rifle, and from the attention/turnout at the competitions that seemed to be the case at the other schools too. I imagine it's still the same now. 

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