The Gun Owner’s thread

[markstanco 12571]

Only 4 likes? All yall seem like you don't like titties.

[Armybrat 40822]

I don't like Glocks.

[Speedtrucker 2071]

Only 4 likes? All yall seem like you don't like titties.

Too much plastic!

Jk, I like tites fake and real

[Jkwellborn 6691]

Only 4 likes? All yall seem like you don't like titties.

It would have gotten more had there been no bra.

[BabaYaga 15288]

16 hours ago, Sandman said:

So I need a 9mm that's small enough to conceal but big enough for my hand at a reasonable price. Thoughts?

If you are not 100% comfortable with your carry piece, you won't carry.  I can promise you this.  Your holster is equally important to the pistol platform you choose.  They are critical.  Like good glass on a quality rifle.  They make all the difference on the comfort and efficacy of your day to day carry experience.

I know it's cliché - but test fire as many pistols as you can.  You'll probably start with a line between striker fired and SA/DA.  LE trade-ins are great.  Personally, I love the new CZ P10C.  Same with the venerable G19.  A Sigp320 with an Apex trigger is a fun platform as well.

Statistically most engagements will happen under 7yds.  Clearing your holster quickly and effectively become paramount (read up on the Tueller Drill - practice dry). 

For larger shooters like yourself many pistols makers offer modular grips for larger hands.  Of you can look at rubber grip sleeves so long as they don't impede your ability draw smoothly.  Make sure you install night sights.  Most important upgrade you can make.  Chances are high any engagement you have won't be on a well-lit street corner with a resting heart rate. 

[T’Boo Ted Marshall 2732]

Let me see if I can add this pic from my phone via Tapa.


6.8 with some upgrades and custom cerakote. Got this for deer since I’m making my 300 BO into a pig rig with thermal.

[Archer 474]

What does 6.8 ammo look like these days? It looks like Silver State Armory got bought by Nosler. Their old 110gr Pro Hunter and 85gr TTSX rounds were the ticket.  

Edited May 31, 2018 by Archer

[BabaYaga 15288]

47 minutes ago, T’Boo Ted Marshall said:

Let me see if I can add this pic from my phone via Tapa.


6.8 with some upgrades and custom cerakote. Got this for deer since I’m making my 300 BO into a pig rig with thermal.

Beautiful!  6.8 is a neat round

[Handcruser 2805]

Academy has G19G4 for $540. There are a shit ton of used and police trade in Glocks in the $400-450 range. There is a reason the G19 is a gold standard in CCW handguns, you would be well served with one. 

Listen to this guy


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[Bert Orange 1120]

On 5/30/2018 at 2:09 PM, Sandman said:

I don't think my hands are abnormally large but I'm not a small guy (6'6", 285). The Glock 19 fit me pretty well but I'd need to add the thicker backstrap. I really like the Glocks but I just don't want to spend that much. 

Some good advice in the thread. I’m 6’3” so not a small guy. Hands are L-XL. I am currently carry a VP9SK with extended grips and the larger blackstrap. Love it. Just shot a buddy’s and now (30 mins ago) ordered my own M&P 45 shield 2.0. Love it. Fits me perfectly and just as comfortable as the VP9SK but with 45 extra oomph. 

Still waiting on my Sig P365 pre order from January. We shall see. 

[Armybrat 40822]

All this Tupperware talk needs some wood & steel counterbalancing. Inherited this Winchester Model 94 (made in 1941) .30-30 from a lifelong family friend (a WWII veteran). It's in 98% finish condition, but the poor lighting & cheap cellphone pic don't do it justice. Gave it to m oldest son a few years ago.

[BigDHornfan 6545]

Some good advice in the thread. I’m 6’3” so not a small guy. Hands are L-XL. I am currently carry a VP9SK with extended grips and the larger blackstrap. Love it. Just shot a buddy’s and now (30 mins ago) ordered my own M&P 45 shield 2.0. Love it. Fits me perfectly and just as comfortable as the VP9SK but with 45 extra oomph. 
Still waiting on my Sig P365 pre order from January. We shall see. 

My everyday Carry is the 45 Shield. Great fucking gun. Accurate as hell.

[GottaB 594]

S&W trying to keep
Up with glocks veteran appreciation discount.

[markstanco 12571]

Impulse buy. The gal at the local gun shop is smoke. Plus, my snake charmer .410 actually broke, the "button" for the break snapped.

For the snakes around the creek that runs through my land.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

[solamente73 1132]

On 6/2/2018 at 12:49 AM, markstanco said:

The gal at the local gun shop is smoke.

Rulz, dammit.....

[cabowabo 4484]

Newest acquisition. Now I just need my got damn can to come in.

[JohnnyShotgun 34]

Man, that is a sexy fucking gun! Nice piece.

 

[Beveaux 6]

For some reason I have always wanted a Kahr MK9.  Out of the blue, one came up for sale at a giveaway price and I couldn't resist.  Picked it up this afternoon.

[Hamttx 419]

On 5/31/2018 at 10:33 AM, Armybrat said:

I don't like Glocks.

I believe there is a place for them. Though I (probably like you) still carry a 1911, and have since the 60’s. But I can smith them whereas most people cannot. A complete novice can change/upgrade a Glock with zero training, and a single tool. Barrel change outs, trigger pull, adding ambidextrous safeties, etc, are incredibly easy. Companies like The Glock Store have made this possible.

And give Glock credit. They brought a new tech to the marketplace before most others and benefited from that. Though I found their reliability claims somewhat misleading. Now that other manufacturers are using high end poly’s that no longer is the selling point it once was. 

And if you are unwilling to practice with whatever you do like, does it really matter? The majority of guys I know who carry spend less then an hour a month actually practicing. It amazes me that there are people like that.

[Armybrat 40822]

1 hour ago, Hamttx said:

 Though I (probably like you) still carry a 1911,

My actually carry rotation guns are a Kahr CW9, a CW45 and a Ruger SP101 .357 - also A Kahr CT380 and an original LCP for pocket carry. Just depends on the weather. Have a new 3" SP101 in .327 federal that might work its way into the rotation.

Edited to add - the Ruger SP101 wheelguns are primarily for car carry, not on my person. Am thinking of adding a Ruger Security 9 or a S&W M&P9 2.0 compact.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Armybrat

[Reagan1k 3024]

4 hours ago, Beveaux said:

For some reason I have always wanted a Kahr MK9.  Out of the blue, one came up for sale at a giveaway price and I couldn't resist.  Picked it up this afternoon.

That's a good looking gun.  

[Armybrat 40822]

52 minutes ago, Reagan1k said:

That's a good looking gun.  

Those all steel Kahrs are very nice quality guns, but pretty pricey.

[BabaYaga 15288]

13 hours ago, Hamttx said:

And if you are unwilling to practice with whatever you do like, does it really matter? The majority of guys I know who carry spend less then an hour a month actually practicing. It amazes me that there are people like that.

It's worse than that - when they do "practice", it's all but worthless spent time.  Squared up, on a static target, in bright light, with a resting heart rate.  Your fine motor skills go to crap when you get than first adrenaline dump.  If you're not ready, you are liability to yourself and others.

Very few spend additional time practicing with an unloaded weapon as well.  Dry-fire exercises are critical.  

[Reagan1k 3024]

Quote

Your fine motor skills go to crap when you get than first adrenaline dump.  If you're not ready, you are liability to yourself and others.

That ain't no lie!!!

I was a witness to an attempted car jacking and assault in a grocery store parking lot south of Houston about 15 years ago. 

Drove up as it was ending - had about 3 seconds to decide if I wanted to cut off and block the car leaving the scene or not.  Don't remember doing it but I had drawn my gun and had it out.  I let them drive by me and got the license plate instead of trying to engage them in a parking lot. 

Glad I made that choice in hind sight because it would have been a cluster-fuck if I had turned the wheel and blocked them.  There were 3 guys in the car who probably would have bailed out into the parking lot and then who knows what would have happened from there. Someone else would have gotten hurt or killed for sure though.

I don't know what my heart rate was but I remember when I got out of my truck to check on the victim I could feel it trying to beat out of my chest.  I was so jacked up with adrenaline it took me an hour to wind down. Shit.....making a phone call to 911 was hard enough - I can't imagine what my accuracy level would have been with a firearm but it would not have been what it was standing on the range bull-shitting with the guys.

Changed the way I practiced for sure.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4975]

Even regular range time has its place. You've got to build habits and muscle memory so that when stress hits you aren't fumbling around and grab the gun by the trigger like that idiot FBI agent who thought it would be a good idea to do a backflip while carrying.

[BabaYaga 15288]

6 minutes ago, Reagan1k said:

I was a witness to an attempted car jacking and assault in a grocery store parking lot south of Houston about 15 years ago. 

Drove up as it was ending - had about 3 seconds to decide if I wanted to cut off and block the car leaving the scene or not.  Don't remember doing it but I had drawn my gun and had it out.  I let them drive by me and got the license plate instead of trying to engage them in a parking lot. 

Glad I made that choice in hind sight because it would have been a cluster-fuck if I had turned the wheel and blocked them.  There were 3 guys in the car who probably would have bailed out into the parking lot and then who knows what would have happened from there. Someone else would have gotten hurt or killed for sure though.

I don't know what my heart rate was but I remember when I got out of my truck to check on the victim I could feel it trying to beat out of my chest.  I was so jacked up with adrenaline it took me an hour to wind down. Shit.....making a phone call to 911 was hard enough - I can't imagine what my accuracy level would have been with a firearm but it would not have been what it was standing on the range bull-shitting with the guys.

Changed the way I practiced for sure.

Sounds like you made the correct call.  Unless your life or the life of a loved one is in imminent danger.  Do not draw.  Remember, even in the defense of life/liberty, and it was ruled a righteous shooting - you are not indemnified from civil charges.  Are your life savings worth it?  Maybe, maybe not.  And here, this doesn't seem to be one of those times.

If you have the means (access to land), practicing via methods to get your heart rate up are both critical, and can be fun.  Multiple targets.  Shooting on the move, etc.  Hundreds of videos out there.  Same with low light scenarios (why night sights are the first upgrade you need to invest in outside of a good holster).  You can start to "inoculate" yourself over time.

At home.  Countless hours can be spent practicing with dry-fire exercises.  Holstering.  Un-holstering.  Target acquisition.  Mag swaps.  FTF's and FTE's.  Stovepipes. 

Slow is smooth.  And smooth is fast

[Armybrat 40822]

Quote

 Remember, even in the defense of life/liberty, and it was ruled a righteous shooting - you are not indemnified from civil charges.

Actually, in Texas the so-called "Castle Doctrine" & "Stand Your Ground" laws protect the victim from civil liability if a defensive shoot was no-billed by a grand jury.

 Practice & training are certainly necessary and a responsibility that should be heeded by all gun owners. But not all of us are going to keep up an intense regimen week in & week out, year round for decades for various reasons. That's my business and not anyone else's.

[BabaYaga 15288]

20 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Actually, in Texas the so-called "Castle Doctrine" & "Stand Your Ground" laws protect the victim from civil liability if a defensive shoot was no-billed by a grand jury.

 Practice & training are certainly necessary and a responsibility that should be heeded by all gun owners. But not all of us are going to keep up an intense regimen week in & week out, year round for decades for various reasons. That's my business and not anyone else's.

Honestly, the best regime I've found to stay crisp is constant, uninterrupted carry.  If there is a "situation", could you get your phone out of your pocket, open/unlock the screen, and snap a photo/video fairly smoothly?  Probably.  We see these all over the news daily from citizens.  Should be the same with your carry.  Familiarity and repetition.   Not the best analogy, but you get the point.  Thing most people struggle with the most is clearing your holster cleanly.  Can do that at home a few times a week/month.

And anyone can be sued for most anything.  And you are only indemnified is the use of force is justified.  You want to spend a year of your life in a Traveon Martin style trial?  Me neither....

Edited June 7, 2018 by BabaYaga

[Armybrat 40822]

I can clear my holsters slicker than shit through a goose. However, the problem s hitting that goose if it's more than 15 yards away and moving around a lot.  Never have been much of a handgun shot except with my brother S&W Model 17. Aging is also taking its toll on the eyesight and stable hand motion.

Basically, the primary purpose of my carrying is to cover a retreat or to get behind cover.... or to literally get the threat off my ass. Last ditch close up situations if they ever occur. I'm not going to get into a protracted gunfight in a public space. Am not as stupid as Zimmerman either.... to go looking for a problem.

[BabaYaga 15288]

1 hour ago, Armybrat said:

I can clear my holsters slicker than shit through a goose. However, the problem s hitting that goose if it's more than 15 yards away and moving around a lot.  Never have been much of a handgun shot except with my brother S&W Model 17. Aging is also taking its toll on the eyesight and stable hand motion.

Basically, the primary purpose of my carrying is to cover a retreat or to get behind cover.... or to literally get the threat off my ass. Last ditch close up situations if they ever occur. I'm not going to get into a protracted gunfight in a public space. Am not as stupid as Zimmerman either.... to go looking for a problem.

I'm with you.  All my initial firearms experience was via hunting.  Shotguns and rifles.  Both of which, I'm great with.  Only pistol we ever had a Ruger MK1 for snakes.  As I got older I spent more time with them, but almost always as a secondary pursuit.  Thought I was decent after time.  Then I started taking more advanced classes and rubbing elbows with people that actually know what they are doing, and realized how little I really do know.  Getting better at "meh" accuracy under duress.  Clearing my holster well.  Static range accuracy is good.  To me, like going from a white belt to a blue BJJ, you start to realize how little you really know.  And it keeps you humble and wary of avoiding unnecessary conflict.  Ever notice in a gym, the higher belts NEVER get into fights outside of the gym?  But the novice fighters seem to attract it?  I think it's the same with carry.  And God forbid I ever did have to pull, it would be at danger-close ranges as a last resort (Also why in my house, my carbine with the preferred defense platform - longer, more stable sight-radius).

[Reagan1k 3024]

Lotta guys who's blood pressure reaches stroke levels when looking a deer through a scope somehow assume they'll be a calculating Chis Kyle clone when shit hits their fan and they are in a life or death situation for themselves, loved ones, and innocents.  I'd rather be armed than not for a no-other-reasonable-option situation but I pray it never comes to that.

Like Tyson said...Errrbody has a plan until......

Edited June 7, 2018 by Reagan1k

[Jhawk 1075]

The pending ATF ruling on firing speed modification got me off my ass and I finished building the AR15 I bought several years ago.  It was a PSA complete unit that I picked up in 2015 I believe.  I paid $900 for it and it came with an EOTech holographic sight on it.  I sold the sight, for $400 and a shitty red dot, to my brother since I wasn't really a gun guy at the time and got my basis in the gun as low as possible...

Well... 3 years later I've put a vertical fore grip on it, pop up front and rear sights, M-lok hand guard and magpul butt stock.  Oh yeah.. I went and got a new EOTech for it because there just isn't anything with the viewing window that EOTech offers. Today I installed my FosTech binary trigger on the deal.  If the government doesn't like them then it probably means I need to get one being the thought.  I'm not a crack shot by any means and I haven't sighted in the EOTech yet but I am headed to an indoor range tomorrow to get some shots on paper and see how the trigger operates.  I'll try and get some video and pics for you guys tomorrow.  Should be fun.

[Jhawk 1075]

Range Report.. Of course I forgot to take a video of the trigger action so that sucks.

I had my AR-15 set up with my Fostech binary trigger that was installed this week and my brother had his set up with a Franklin Armory trigger, also put on this week.  We got set up and started shooting.  First had a gas tube issue so I had to mess with that. Started with no gas so I wasn't getting good cycling.  Then I was heavy and had massive recoil.  When I thought I had it tuned where I wanted I flipped it over to binary mode and didn't have enough gas to get the hammer reset for the 2nd shot on the release.  Back to the table to adjust again.  After about 20 minutes I had it ready to sight in.  I got my EOTech sighted in at 50 feet after about 10 minutes and was ready.

At first I was pulling and holding the trigger, fire one, then re-aim and release, fire two.  Was pretty simple.  So I started to try and get it really going but I couldn't get in a groove.  The Fostech trigger is an art form and isn't just a plug and pull situation.  You have 2 pull weights and if you don't pull all the way through the 2nd point you won't reset the hammer and thus won't fire a second shot.  This happened to me a ton.  I would pull to the first break and then release, only firing a shot on the pull and not release.  Eventually, I got in the groove and was pulling and releasing very well.  I emptied an entire mag with a grouping that was all within about a 4 inch diameter circle.  It feels VERY out of control at first but then you look at the paper and realize the action is so fast that as long as you are still seeing paper through your sight then you are going to land shots on it.

My brother and I then traded guns and compared.  We both came away believing the Franklin Armory trigger was better.  Cycled better, had better break points, didn't have such a hard 2nd break to reach, and overall felt smoother from break to break.  The Fostech was good but I feel like it needs to be tuned in a little.  It also feels like the 2nd break in the trigger pull is twice as hard to pull than the first break (4-5 pounds on the first and what feels like 8 pounds on the second break).  I think I am going to call Fostech and see if there is anything I can do to make it easier to pull.  In my opinion, the fostech trigger is not something you can pick up, flip to binary mode, and just start unloading.  It takes some finesse to get there.  The Franklin trigger is ready to roll right out of the box and felt very nice.  It is also about $100 cheaper at brownells.com.

After fucking with that for 5-6 mags I switched to the AR10.  I had never pulled the trigger on this gun since buying in 2016 (finished the build January 2017).  Get it ready, get my bipod set, load mag, chamber round, pull trigger, click....  Fucking A.  Another issue????  By this time I'm frustrated with my guns.  We see 2 issues.  1. weak hammer strike.  We take it a part and put together and magically I can fire a round.  Then the 2nd issue arises.  The BCG isn't pulling the round back and ejection isn't happening.  Gas is good.  Take BCG out, swap it with my brother's AR10 and it fires just fine.  He throws my BCG in his 10 and he fires off shots with no problem.  We switch them back and neither of us are having problems.  I push the paper out to 100 feet and my scope is dead on.  Obviously I don't have a scope for 100 foot shots, but I wanted to get on paper early so when I head to the farm I at least have a starting place.  I bought a nikon scope (m-308) that is set up for my gun and distance specifically.  Center reticle is supposed to be set at 450 yards.  That should be a fun time sighting it in for the full distance.

 

[SHOOTER12 8800]

On 5/11/2018 at 9:13 PM, 686 said:

Friday night reloading recap; say hello to my lil friends:

 

 

That’s about 50,000 ft-lbs of potential energy. Kinda wild. Discretion being the better part of valor, I dialed back to an 86.5 grain load for this batch, which should give me about 2840 FPS MV. My rifle has liked that velocity with other ammo, so just need to get some time to shoot some groups.

 

Don't want to go back through the thread.....so, what in the world are those beasties?

[686 3447]

Don't want to go back through the thread.....so, what in the world are those beasties?

 

.375 Weatherby Magnum Handloads.

 

270 grain Barnes LRX @ 2850 feet per second, about 4900 ft-lb of energy at the muzzle, more energy than a .416 Rigby at 100 yards.

 

Here’s my rifle, it’s an older custom with a heavy Douglas barrel:

 

 

When you touch one of those off, it’s kind of an event.

 

[4th and 5 4914]

mounted this on my new Glock 22, saw it was on sale at Grabagun for $61, light is super bright and easy to use, well worth $60

850 lumen light and it strobes also

https://www.baycoproducts.com/product/weapon-mounted-lights/item/twm-850xls

 

 

[SHOOTER12 8800]

14 hours ago, 686 said:

 

.375 Weatherby Magnum Handloads.

 

270 grain Barnes LRX @ 2850 feet per second, about 4900 ft-lb of energy at the muzzle, more energy than a .416 Rigby at 100 yards.

 

Here’s my rifle, it’s an older custom with a heavy Douglas barrel:

 

 

When you touch one of those off, it’s kind of an event.

 

If that's not sweet, I don't know what is.

[686 3447]

1 hour ago, SHOOTER12 said:

If that's not sweet, I don't know what is.

Thanks, finding the old gun and working it and the load up have been very satisfying. I’m taking it into the field for plains game in July.

A neat thing about .375 Weatherby is that it will shoot .375 H&H ammo (lower speed), so if you’re ammo doesn’t make the trip for some reason, you can usually find a local source for some factory H&H.

[noharleyyet 2838]

7 minutes ago, 686 said:

Thanks, finding the old gun and working it and the load up have been very satisfying. I’m taking it into the field for plains game in July.

A neat thing about .375 Weatherby is that it will shoot .375 H&H ammo (lower speed), so if you’re ammo doesn’t make the trip for some reason, you can usually find a local source for some factory H&H.

Haveyou tried this? If so, how was the poi?

[BabaYaga 15288]

15 hours ago, 686 said:

 

.375 Weatherby Magnum Handloads.

 

270 grain Barnes LRX @ 2850 feet per second, about 4900 ft-lb of energy at the muzzle, more energy than a .416 Rigby at 100 yards.

 

Here’s my rifle, it’s an older custom with a heavy Douglas barrel:

 

 

When you touch one of those off, it’s kind of an event.

 

That's a whole lot of contained energy right there.  There's an art to loading and shooting effectively a big bore like that.  Only thing I can compare is a friend that was into long range Sharpe's trap-door rifle shooting that took me out a bunch of times (I supplied the land, steaks, and bourbon, he supplied the cannons).  45-70 and a 45-90.  Think Quigley Down Under.  No glass.  Vernier Long Range Tang Sights.  Except those rifles all were 13+ pounds.  Slight push.  Recoil was minimal.  Modern platform.  Even with a heavy barrel.  Bet that baby is snappy.  Assuming it's a Safari gun?  What are you loading for?  Cape Buffalo?  Kudu?  Eland?

[686 3447]

3 hours ago, noharleyyet said:

Haveyou tried this? If so, how was the poi?

Yes, and due to the 1:12 twist rate of the barrel, accuracy depends on the speed of the ammo (slow ammo isn't accurate). The rifle shoots factory Hornady Superformance 375 H&H 250gr GMX @ 2850 fps, so basically the same POI as my handloads. I would probably just shoot that instead of handloading, but the Barnes LRX has better ballistics and is pure copper, not gilding metal (which is harder and less than optimal IMO). 

The rifle also shoots low cost Remington 260grain softnose fast enough to group well. The low cost Federal 300gr only shoots about 2500fps, and the groups are bad. I didn't try and Federal Premium, as they don't load by preferred bullets in 375 (and they cost about $100 a box).

[686 3447]

  Bet that baby is snappy.  Assuming it's a Safari gun?  What are you loading for?  Cape Buffalo?  Kudu?  Eland?

It’s not snappy, because it’s heavy (12+ lbs), it’s more like a hard shove. I enjoy shooting it off sticks, shooting off the bench is work. Yes a safari and hopefully future Alaska gun. I’m going for plainsgame next month, hopefully Buffalo on another trip.

[Gil Bang 25920]

Anybody got an opinion on Weatherby shotguns?   I've got my eye on the Orion over/under.  

[BabaYaga 15288]

1 minute ago, Gil Bang said:

Anybody got an opinion on Weatherby shotguns?   I've got my eye on the Orion over/under.  

Weatherby makes a great product.  O/U's are a very personal item.  Like a fine watch.  As much about fit and feel as it is function.  If you go this route, you will have a great product that will last for many generations.

[BabaYaga 15288]

37 minutes ago, 686 said:

 

It’s not snappy, because it’s heavy (12+ lbs), it’s more like a hard shove. I enjoy shooting it off sticks, shooting off the bench is work. Yes a safari and hopefully future Alaska gun. I’m going for plainsgame next month, hopefully Buffalo on another trip.

 

Shoot a pig.  Get on video.  Post video.  Profit....

[686 3447]

31 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

Anybody got an opinion on Weatherby shotguns?   I've got my eye on the Orion over/under.  

My dad has had one for 20 years, never had an issue, beautiful gun, great lockup mechanism.

[686 3447]

Shoot a pig.  Get on video.  Post video.  Profit....

I shot two whitetail with the factory 375 H&H Superformance GMX 250gr this fall; knocked’em flat, zero tracking job.




Self-filmed hunting is hard, but I do take my SLR to the stand and take photos

[Beveaux 6]

8 hours ago, Gil Bang said:

Anybody got an opinion on Weatherby shotguns?   I've got my eye on the Orion over/under.  

There is a whole range of quality with the Weatherby shotguns.  Last year they came out with the Orion Sportsman for about $1000.  It really depends on what model you get.  

 

Technically, Weatherby doesn't "design" shotguns. However, they do contract with certain firearm manufacturers to make shotguns for them that have certain Weatherby specified features. These features could have to do with things like stock dimensions, stock engraving, stock finishes, grade of wood, metal engraving, metal finishes, choke tube system, and so on. 

Typically, Weatherby will chose a company that already makes a shotgun that meets their basic needs as to action type and operating features, and then they specify what changes they want made and the quality standards they must meet before putting the Weatherby name on it.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Beveaux

[williemackgarza 1826]

Lookin for a used Benelli SBE 3 in black if anyone has a lead.


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