The Gun Owner’s thread

[Gil Bang 26048]

so I'm not a gun nut (no disrespect intended) so maybe it's been discussed here, but, according to WAPO, sigs like to shoot without anybody pulling the trigger.

[Anastasis 23491]

On 4/8/2023 at 9:44 PM, Handcruser said:

So you have a built rig under 16”?

Pistol configuration. Based in what I am reading, and in line with the comment up thread, the brace had to be installed prior to Jan 31 2023. So missed out on the free stamp cause I was too lazy to buy a brace a while back. No big deal. I have no plans to fly close to the sun over a $200 stamp. Should have paid closer attention to the draft rule as it worked through the system. 

[BabaYaga 15328]

8 hours ago, Gil Bang said:

so I'm not a gun nut (no disrespect intended) so maybe it's been discussed here, but, according to WAPO, sigs like to shoot without anybody pulling the trigger.

lol, no.  There were some rumors with the p320 when dropped at a certain angle when it was first released.  There were reports, but the results were hard to replicate.  The model was recalled and changes were made either way.  The new variant of the p320 was adopted by the US army to replace the aged Beretta 92F.  I'm a Sig fanboy and own a Sig 1911, and P220, and my EDC is a P395.  With all three zero issues of any kinds over decades of ownership.  

[Bozo_Casanova 26579]

I’m hoping the p320 thing is an Audi 5000 situation, but the fact pattern is a little strange, in part because there’s video evidence that *seems* to show hands-off discharge and also about half of the people who have experienced this phenomenon (or simply shot themselves) were soldiers and cops, and *should* have a higher level of proficiency than average Joe. That said- a huge number of people carry it, so a few accidents are going to happen. 

Either way a good reminder that:

1) there aren’t many good reasons to keep a round in the chamber and 

2) generally speaking, external thumb safeties are a good idea

Edited April 12, 2023 by Bozo_Casanova

[Armybrat 40920]

1) Without a round in the chamber (Condition 1) a handgun is a paper weight.

2) For a klutz carrier, yes. But unnecessary if carried properly in a proper holster.

 

[BabaYaga 15328]

31 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

1) there aren’t many good reasons to keep a round in the chamber and 

 

I respectfully could not disagree more.  What's the point of even having the gun if it's not loaded?  Especially for EDC.  This is where the training and responsibility of the user comes into play.  Modern striker-fired pistols are among the safest ever made.  They don't just go off any more than your car just starts itself.  With a decent holster, you absolutely can and should carry safely.  

[Da Fino 2785]

1 hour ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

 

1) there aren’t many good reasons to keep a round in the chamber and 

 

Do you practice cocking while you draw? 

[Bozo_Casanova 26579]

26 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

I respectfully could not disagree more.  What's the point of even having the gun if it's not loaded?  Especially for EDC.  This is where the training and responsibility of the user comes into play.  Modern striker-fired pistols are among the safest ever made.  They don't just go off any more than your car just starts itself.  With a decent holster, you absolutely can and should carry safely.  

I agree, but you sort of answered your own question. Just to be clear I'm talking about the way people used to carry before striker pistols and drop safeties - condition 3 or "Israeli Carry," not unloaded, but anyway-

Here's the opening quote from the post story :
 

Quote

One warm afternoon in May, Dwight Jackson was getting dressed for a visit to his favorite cigar lounge. He slipped his holstered SIG Sauer P320 pistol onto his belt, put on a button-down shirt and leaned across his bed for his wallet. Suddenly, he said, the gun fired, sending a bullet tearing through his right buttock and into his left ankle.

I can think of multiple ways this could have happened that don't involve a design defect, but either way none of them do happen if he doesn't have a round chambered and/or he's got a thumb safety engaged. But the first thing that popped into my head is "why is Dwight Jackson carrying at the cigar lounge?"

Here's another one

Quote

Police officer Brittany Hilton said her holstered P320 fired while inside her purse as she walked to her car in Bridge City, Tex.

If she has to retrieve the holstered pistol from her purse, is condition 3 (loaded, chamber empty) not more appropriate? And how does the environment of her purse interact with the holster, and is it properly holstered?

This next one blew my mind, and there's terrifying video in the story:

Quote

Grainy security camera footage shows school resource officer Jonathan Cross lifting his weapon — a SIG Sauer P320 — and resetting it in its holster. As he slides the gun back inside the holster, a bullet fires into a wall next to his right foot, leaving a pile of debris.
...

Cross, 49, concedes that he should not have been handling his weapon in a cafeteria full of children, but he maintains that he didn’t pull the gun’s trigger. The sheriff’s office argued that he mishandled the gun and suspended him the same day. He was later fired.

No shit he shouldn't have been handling it. 

I don't carry without a specific reason, and for the record I think there are a lot of people who do carry who shouldn't. But either way I don't think we can take it for granted that people are well trained enough or responsible enough to carry in condition 1, at least not without a dumber external safety to verify that they are in fact in condition 1 (i.e. safety on, even if internal), and not safety off or condition 0 via misadventure or mishandling. I have to assume that part of the reason why the military version of the P320 has a thumb safety is for precisely this reason.  

[Bozo_Casanova 26579]

1 hour ago, Da Fino said:

Do you practice cocking while you draw? 

I practice both ways, but I don't carry. 

[BHMCruiser 1818]

5 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

I’m hoping the p320 thing is an Audi 5000 situation, but the fact pattern is a little strange, in part because there’s video evidence that *seems* to show hands-off discharge and also about half of the people who have experienced this phenomenon (or simply shot themselves) were soldiers and cops, and *should* have a higher level of proficiency than average Joe. That said- a huge number of people carry it, so a few accidents are going to happen. 

Either way a good reminder that:

1) there aren’t many good reasons to keep a round in the chamber and 

2) generally speaking, external thumb safeties are a good idea

disagree on both 1 and 2 but have no opinion on whether the Sig is a safe design

[Armybrat 40920]

I have never handled a Sig, but am interested in the P365.

Just bought one of the P365’s competitors - this Ruger Max 9. It was a good deal at $299.99 plus shipping, tax, & ffl. 
About $200 less than the Sig. 
 

[Handcruser 2805]

I have never handled a Sig, but am interested in the P365.
Just bought one of the P365’s competitors - this Ruger Max 9. It was a good deal at $299.99 plus shipping, tax, & ffl. 
About $200 less than the Sig. 
 

What do you think the reason it’s $200 cheaper is? Did you buy it from Brandon?

[Armybrat 40920]

Grabagun sale.
This one is like a rattle can, which seems to be a characteristic of this model. Both my little LCP Max .380s are tight and good shooters. No problems with them so far.
We’ll have to see how this one does at Shady Oaks range. But a P365 is still in my top three want list regardless of the Max 9.

 

 

 

[BabaYaga 15328]

22 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

I have never handled a Sig, but am interested in the P365.

 

I love it.  I've carried a Glock 19 and Shield.  The 365 is far and away my favorite.  Points well.  Has been completely reliable and has a 12rd mag capacity (or 15 with extended).  It's a thin frame so concealing comfortably is easy and makes me more prone to carrying more frequently.

[BabaYaga 15328]

4 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

I don't carry without a specific reason, and for the record I think there are a lot of people who do carry who shouldn't. But either way I don't think we can take it for granted that people are well trained enough or responsible enough to carry in condition 1, at least not without a dumber external safety to verify that they are in fact in condition 1 (i.e. safety on, even if internal), and not safety off or condition 0 via misadventure or mishandling. I have to assume that part of the reason why the military version of the P320 has a thumb safety is for precisely this reason.  

Many more multiples of people have negligent discharges on pistols with external or hammer safety's than striker fired.  They get caught in clothing/purses/bags, or if something happens and you get an adrenaline dump all your fine motor skills goes to shit and you fuck around with the safety with you fingers near the trigger.  Sounds counterintuitive, but I feel safer with my old G19 than I did with my compact 1911 in position 1 that had three external safety mechanisms (hammer, palm, and ambidextrous safety).  

 

[Fondren & Main 6742]

I can’t believe I’m agreeing with @Bozo_Casanova, but here we are. 

[Armybrat 40920]

My 9mm Rugers (3 SR9s and this Max9) all have external safeties. Unneeded IMO, and never have employed them. 
That’s one thing I liked about all four of my Kahrs, they were pretty sleek and “uncluttered”. My kids & grandkids like them thay way too.

 

[Speedtrucker 2082]

I have never handled a Sig, but am interested in the P365.
Just bought one of the P365’s competitors - this Ruger Max 9. It was a good deal at $299.99 plus shipping, tax, & ffl. 
About $200 less than the Sig. 
 

I carry a Springfield Hellcat OSP, the other competitor to the P365 except it comes with 11 and 13rd mags

Love it, carry it all the time. Have a veridian laser on it since the gun dealer was running a special with Veridian laser and Springfield was running the buy one and get 3 extra mags(mine was 1 13rd and 2 15rd mags) and a soft side carry case.

Much comfier than carrying my HK P2000 appendix everyday

[BabaYaga 15328]

2 minutes ago, Speedtrucker said:

I carry a Springfield Hellcat OSP, the other competitor to the P365 except it comes with 11 and 13rd mags

Love it, carry it all the time. Have a veridian laser on it since the gun dealer was running a special with Veridian laser and Springfield was running the buy one and get 3 extra mags(mine was 1 13rd and 2 15rd mags) and a soft side carry case.

Much comfier than carrying my HK P2000 appendix everyday

Heard really good things.  Just being the fanboy that I am, I went back to the well with Sig.  If anyone were asking for an affordable "starter" carry gun, I'd steer them towards the M&P Shield.  Hard to beat for the money.  Only reason I switched was the larger mag capacity in a similar sized, thin, frame.  

[BabaYaga 15328]

7 minutes ago, Speedtrucker said:

Much comfier than carrying my HK P2000 appendix everyday

That's my preferred position as well, IF I'm not rocking the fanny pack

[Bozo_Casanova 26579]

1 hour ago, Armybrat said:

Just bought one of the P365’s competitors - this Ruger Max 9. It

you bought the Ruger? Well this is unexpected. 

[Armybrat 40920]

I didn’t buy the Max 9 to carry, nor will a P365. 
My EDC is this LCP Max .380, which replaced my 1st generation LCP.

 

[Armybrat 40920]

5 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

you bought the Ruger? Well this is unexpected. 

I’ve already been through the small Colts & S&W…..and Kahrs.

 

 

[Bozo_Casanova 26579]

39 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Many more multiples of people have negligent discharges on pistols with external or hammer safety's than striker fired.  They get caught in clothing/purses/bags, or if something happens and you get an adrenaline dump all your fine motor skills goes to shit and you fuck around with the safety with you fingers near the trigger.  Sounds counterintuitive, but I feel safer with my old G19 than I did with my compact 1911 in position 1 that had three external safety mechanisms (hammer, palm, and ambidextrous safety).  

 

I agree with all this, but the trigger safety is a big part of why I feel as safe as I do handling the Glock 19. If I bought a Sig I would 100% get the manual safety and use it.  

[BabaYaga 15328]

12 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

I agree with all this, but the trigger safety is a big part of why I feel as safe as I do handling the Glock 19. If I bought a Sig I would 100% get the manual safety and use it.  

Use what you're comfortable with.  Mine is always holstered so my fingers are never near the trigger 

[Crapinon 2276]

I just discovered this thread a few weeks ago so if I'm way behind forgive me. I don't have a pic of it but one of my favorite small/ carry guns is CZ83. 14 shot, all steel. A lot of people laugh at a .380 but it's very accurate at up to 25 yards and handles hollow points very well. Am I alone in my liking some of the older auto's?

[BabaYaga 15328]

4 minutes ago, Crapinon said:

I just discovered this thread a few weeks ago so if I'm way behind forgive me. I don't have a pic of it but one of my favorite small/ carry guns is CZ83. 14 shot, all steel. A lot of people laugh at a .380 but it's very accurate at up to 25 yards and handles hollow points very well. Am I alone in my liking some of the older auto's?

Not at all.  CZ makes a great, great option.  All their lines are great:  pistols, rifles, and shotguns.  As for older options, I still say to this day the 1911 and Browning Hi-Power are two of the best pistols ever made.  

[davidg 4038]

Surly be slippin,   All this safety talk and not a single

[Armybrat 40920]

2 hours ago, Crapinon said:

I just discovered this thread a few weeks ago so if I'm way behind forgive me. I don't have a pic of it but one of my favorite small/ carry guns is CZ83. 14 shot, all steel. A lot of people laugh at a .380 but it's very accurate at up to 25 yards and handles hollow points very well. Am I alone in my liking some of the older auto's?

No, I like my Colt .380, but it is getting to be too much of a collectible since it is LNIB.

 

[Parliament 14334]

3 hours ago, Crapinon said:

I just discovered this thread a few weeks ago so if I'm way behind forgive me. I don't have a pic of it but one of my favorite small/ carry guns is CZ83. 14 shot, all steel. A lot of people laugh at a .380 but it's very accurate at up to 25 yards and handles hollow points very well. Am I alone in my liking some of the older auto's?

No.  I love my Beretta Tomcat.

[Speedtrucker 2082]

That's my preferred position as well, IF I'm not rocking the fanny pack

Yeah when I made the switch from 4oclock to appendix it took a lot of getting used to it. You having the barrel resting on my junk…. Lol

For a while I would still carry on the hip when we’d go hunting but now I’ve found it is a little in the way for most things I do now. So now even when hunting I have a holster attached to one of my chest rigs/Bino harnesses

[Handcruser 2805]

I just discovered this thread a few weeks ago so if I'm way behind forgive me. I don't have a pic of it but one of my favorite small/ carry guns is CZ83. 14 shot, all steel. A lot of people laugh at a .380 but it's very accurate at up to 25 yards and handles hollow points very well. Am I alone in my liking some of the older auto's?

All of CZ’s shot is pretty good …….especially they’re hammered shit.

P10 series is kinda meh. They’re good, just not for me.

[Jkwellborn 6748]

I have to assume that part of the reason why the military version of the P320 has a thumb safety is for precisely this reason.  

I don’t think the military requires a safety in case someone is finger fucking a weapon.

[deft 6885]

Aiwb here too. Mostly with a Glock or p80.

Re: the shield…I’ve got a first gen shield with thumb safety and bought a nice tier 1 aiwb holster for it. The whole rig mostly collects dust in the safe because I prefer to keep to one control set.

[fattyflattie 4638]

7 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

As for older options, I still say to this day the 1911 and Browning Hi-Power are two of the best pistols ever made.  

Way to go out on a ledge there...ha.

 

I am lost in all of your handgun talk. I don't carry, until recently (at the ranch only) but I've never in my life been comfortable with one in the chamber while on my hip.  I get it, for those that carry everyday. I have just never gotten comfortable with it.  I cant even imagine appendix carry. 

 @Armybrat I'm a pretty big fan of Ruger, not as big as you, but who is?  Anyhow, I must have just had bad luck because I had an LC9 gifted to me once and that was the biggest pos I ever owned.  Not indicative at all of every single other Ruger I've got (P89, #1's, 10/22's, redhawk), rifle or pistol.  I'm glad you have had good luck with them, but it triggers me every time you mention it. 

[BabaYaga 15328]

8 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

I am lost in all of your handgun talk. I don't carry, until recently (at the ranch only) but I've never in my life been comfortable with one in the chamber while on my hip.  I get it, for those that carry everyday. I have just never gotten comfortable with it.  I cant even imagine appendix carry. 

 

It's all about the holster.  A quality holster that envelopes the trigger completely while retaining the pistol and is comfortable to wear.  Modern pistols don't just "go off".  Short of being dropped, those cases are user error issues.  There's this natural tendency when you grab a pistol to get that damn finger inside the trigger guard.  Then it takes a little bit of time and effort to get used to carrying.  Maybe practice drawing at home.  Just getting familiar and comfortable so it becomes a natural part of your routine as best you can manage.  

[BHMCruiser 1818]

17 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

you bought the Ruger? Well this is unexpected. 

No shit. I hope he offsets by buying Ruger stock.

[BHMCruiser 1818]

16 hours ago, Crapinon said:

I just discovered this thread a few weeks ago so if I'm way behind forgive me. I don't have a pic of it but one of my favorite small/ carry guns is CZ83. 14 shot, all steel. A lot of people laugh at a .380 but it's very accurate at up to 25 yards and handles hollow points very well. Am I alone in my liking some of the older auto's?

Not at all. I very rarely carry but when I do it's a Walther PPK/S

[BHMCruiser 1818]

8 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

Way to go out on a ledge there...ha.

 

I am lost in all of your handgun talk. I don't carry, until recently (at the ranch only) but I've never in my life been comfortable with one in the chamber while on my hip.  I get it, for those that carry everyday. I have just never gotten comfortable with it.  I cant even imagine appendix carry. 

 @Armybrat I'm a pretty big fan of Ruger, not as big as you, but who is?  Anyhow, I must have just had bad luck because I had an LC9 gifted to me once and that was the biggest pos I ever owned.  Not indicative at all of every single other Ruger I've got (P89, #1's, 10/22's, redhawk), rifle or pistol.  I'm glad you have had good luck with them, but it triggers me every time you mention it. 

I think Ruger makes some things very well. With the exception of the Mark series .22s, none of those things are semiautomatic handguns. In fact, I'd go so far as to say only the 10/22 and the Mark series are the ONLY semiautomatic firearms made by Ruger that are not garbage. 

[Reagan1k 3024]

Massad Ayoob has some really good videos and articles on safely carrying, including the pros and cons of both a chambered round and appendix carry.

Everyone has their own opinions.  I'm of the belief that since modern handguns don't fire when dropped, an AD will be caused by carelessness or poor technique and training.

A double action revolver with the hammer down is one additional layer of safety.  The same goes for a double action semi-automatic.

 

 

[BHMCruiser 1818]

Just now, BHMCruiser said:

I think Ruger makes some things very well. With the exception of the Mark series .22s, none of those things are semiautomatic handguns. In fact, I'd go so far as to say only the 10/22 and the Mark series are the ONLY semiautomatic firearms made by Ruger that are not garbage. 

They make good bolt action rifles, single action rifles, and revolvers as well. But the Mini-14, Mini-30, and all their semiauto handguns? Blech.

[BabaYaga 15328]

20 minutes ago, BHMCruiser said:

Not at all. I very rarely carry but when I do it's a Walther PPK/S

GREAT gun, and obligatory...

[Brothahorn 10087]

I just discovered this thread a few weeks ago so if I'm way behind forgive me. I don't have a pic of it but one of my favorite small/ carry guns is CZ83. 14 shot, all steel. A lot of people laugh at a .380 but it's very accurate at up to 25 yards and handles hollow points very well. Am I alone in my liking some of the older auto's?

Add me to the .380 is a good gun in the right hands. I knew someone who got shot with a .380 at about 15 yards. It definitely took him out of the fight.

When it comes to safeties, I'm probably in the Bozo camp. I keep one in the chamber but I also keep the safety on. Just another level of safety. I'm pretty good with the draw and thumb flick. One of the reasons I'm a Taurus guy.

[Bozo_Casanova 26579]

 

23 minutes ago, BHMCruiser said:

But the Mini-14, Mini-30, and all their semiauto handguns? Blech.

you's trollin

[BabaYaga 15328]

14 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

One of the reasons I'm a Taurus guy.

[Armybrat 40920]

2 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

 

you's trollin

Not really, as there are a lot of shooters who have experienced problems with several models after their introduction, the LCP included. 
My brother watched his friend’s early LCP slide fly downrange after the retention pin had “walked out” of the frame. Lol - pretty startling to say the least. 
The early Mini14s have a rep for inaccuracy because of the lightweight barrel “vibrating” when it gets hot after extensive firing.

Like many manufacturers, they rush products to market too soon without old time quality controls and seem to rely on beta testing by the consumer. Bean counters have affected a lot of reputations that way.

That’s why I wait a year or two after introduction until Ruger gets most of the bugs worked out before purchasing a particular model. I have bought about two dozen Rugers (revolvers, semi auto rifles, pistols, single actions) since 1959 and have actually come across one with a problem that will require a trip back to the factory to be corrected. 
That one is a 2nd generation LCP .380 that will not seat the magazine at all, empty or loaded. I had bought it new for $170 several years ago, never test fired it, and gave it to my granddaughter for Christmas last year. She brought it back to me last week so I can send it in to have Ruger put in a new magazine catch.

Both my brothers own numerous Rugers, among other brands, and have not had any problems with them. 
Maybe we are just lucky.

 

[Armybrat 40920]

Yeah, I’m a Ruger fanboy. 
But S&W, Colt, NAA, Winchester, Remington, Marlin, Hi-Standard, H&R, and Keltec have all had places in my gun safes.

[Speedtrucker 2082]

If the A-Team never had any problems with the mini-14 then they are GTG for me!

[83Horn 1648]

56 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Not really, as there are a lot of shooters who have experienced problems with several models after their introduction, the LCP included. 
My brother watched his friend’s early LCP slide fly downrange after the retention pin had “walked out” of the frame. Lol - pretty startling to say the least. 
The early Mini14s have a rep for inaccuracy because of the lightweight barrel “vibrating” when it gets hot after extensive firing.

Like many manufacturers, they rush products to market too soon without old time quality controls and seem to rely on beta testing by the consumer. Bean counters have affected a lot of reputations that way.

That’s why I wait a year or two after introduction until Ruger gets most of the bugs worked out before purchasing a particular model. I have bought about two dozen Rugers (revolvers, semi auto rifles, pistols, single actions) since 1959 and have actually come across one with a problem that will require a trip back to the factory to be corrected. 
That one is a 2nd generation LCP .380 that will not seat the magazine at all, empty or loaded. I had bought it new for $170 several years ago, never test fired it, and gave it to my granddaughter for Christmas last year. She brought it back to me last week so I can send it in to have Ruger put in a new magazine catch.

Both my brothers own numerous Rugers, among other brands, and have not had any problems with them. 
Maybe we are just lucky.

 

This is so true.  I have a mini-14 I bought in 1994, that for the life of me, I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with.  Long story short, in looking for a way to mount a scope on this rifle, I stumbled upon a rail system from Amega Mounts that replaces the stock hand guard.  Part of this replacement kit is a small, steel barrel brace that clamps over barrel, and stabilizes it.  After installing this thing, the improvement in accuracy was remarkable.  In stock configuration, I couldn't reliably hit a target at 100 yards...I mean completely miss the paper.  Now, all shots hit within the black at 100 yards.  It's still no tack driver, but accuracy is massively improved, and I am confident I can reliably hit whatever I need to at any range.

http://www.amegamounts.com/product_pages/rugerMini14.php

[Carl Spackler 3505]

I bought a Ruger P89 about 30 years ago.  The trigger is terrible but it has been damned reliable.  I've put thousands of rounds of all types through that thing, and it has never failed to go bang.  I had one instance of a casing getting stuck in the ejection port a few years back.  No other problems at all.  Money well spent, IMO.