when does the United States crumble? will it happen in our lifetimes?

[52-80 19066]

29 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

Pointing to millionaires in Silicon Valley in response to commentary on the rich is missing the point entirely, which is my point, which you’ve missed, predictably.

A very thin sliver used an example of the 1,000,000 new residents in america every year because it represents the best chance to pursue what one wants, create value, and better ones quality of life. 
 

regardless of what privileged doom and gloom you want to paint. 
 

pick any ethnicity, any location, and any threshold of success.  and the point still stands. 

[Celery Man 20874]

Regardless, a million dollars isn’t rich. Everything else you just said has fuck all to do with anything I’ve said in this thread at all.

[52-80 19066]

1 minute ago, Celery Man said:

Regardless, a million dollars isn’t rich. Everything else you just said has fuck all to do with anything I’ve said in this thread at all.

1. Its still a tremendous amount of money

2. Millionaire is used as a signifier, not an actual number 

3. Make it deci-millionaire and sentiment is still exactly true

4. What you said in the thread dont fucking matter…

5. Because the point is: America, warts and all, is still a lofty place rife with opportunities, sought by a ton of people from around the globe.  This contradicts any notion of it crumbling, which is, in fact, the fucking topic of the thread

 

So kindly GFY

[TwiceHorn 31184]

5 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

Nations erode, they don’t crumble. It only looks like they crumble after a couple hundred years go by and historians look back and say this nation fell in 1644. In reality, hundreds of things attack the foundation over a long period of time until the crumble is complete. Things like…the poor are treated like shit. There’s not enough food, housing, or protection. The nation stretched itself too thin. They spent too much. Minorities are treated like shit. The military is power hungry. There is a dictator. There is a crazy dictator. Rules are not followed or enforced. Information is restricted. Education is restricted. Propaganda is allowed. Disease. No jobs. Famine. Natural Events. (A nation can crumble if conquered by force)
 

 

 

The falcon cannot hear the falconer.

Things fall apart.

The centre cannot hold.

[Guest]

On 12/11/2021 at 1:09 PM, Neonmoon said:

The Ming Dynasty fell, yes, but it was was followed by the Qing Dynasty. Both are Chinese. The Chinese have 3500 years of history. So depends on what you mean by the US crumbling. Do you mean it’s breaks up? Geographically? Or Democracy ends? No one is conquering the US from the outside. Could a dictator take over? Yes. Could a revolution happen? Yes. 

Doubtful on both. Not to get CR but Trump put everyone on notice of what a dictator might look like. He is a hated guy and his brand of dictatorship wouldn’t have even been that authoritarian. Americans on both sides of aisle resist that tremendously. 

America won’t fall any time soon. It’s going to continue a slow decline and like the British did with us, we will ultimately give way to the Chinese. Great Britain didn’t go anywhere. The civil unrest has been bad lately but was probably worse in the 60s. Civil unrest is mere noise when discussing the downfall of a society. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by blacklab
user taking day off for cr

[TwiceHorn 31184]

6 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

1. Its still a tremendous amount of money

2. Millionaire is used as a signifier, not an actual number 

3. Make it deci-millionaire and sentiment is still exactly true

4. What you said in the thread dont fucking matter…

5. Because the point is: America, warts and all, is still a lofty place rife with opportunities, sought by a ton of people from around the globe.  This contradicts any notion of it crumbling, which is, in fact, the fucking topic of the thread

 

So kindly GFY

What's interesting is that having a net worth of a million or more places one pretty firmly in the top 10% of Americans.

But it's not enough money to insure a wholly secure retirement.

[Celery Man 20874]

1) in Silicon Valley it’s a person with a 3/2 and some cash in a 401k

2) if you’re talking about the actual rich, use a different signifier if you don’t want to sound stupid

3) Make it deci-millionaire and you’re still talking about people with a tiny amount of wealth as compared to “the rich” in this conversation

4) right

5) I actually agree with you on the first part, which is why I think it is a bummer how the evil are leveraging the stupid to dismantle our system of government.

[Celery Man 20874]

4 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

What's interesting is that having a net worth of a million or more places one pretty firmly in the top 10% of Americans.

But it's not enough money to insure a wholly secure retirement.

Ah but you could afford any number of large televisions 

[52-80 19066]

{A proverbial handful of greedy fucks leaving the country; your pedantry over the long-established connotative threshold for what represents “rich”; and interminable political squabbling}
 

none of these things negate the fact that america in 2021, and being in america in 2021, is largely better than ever. 
 

hell, belgium had a shell of a government for 2 years and its still fine. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by 52-80

[Underdog 28437]

We have but one man and one man only to thank for ending the Ming dynasty...

 

 

[F250 28659]

The U.S. isn't going anywhere as long as the petrodollar exists. Even without it our global influence might be reduced but the U.S. would remain a world super power. As someone mentioned even if we are surpassed by China which isn't happening in our lifetime, the U.S. would remain.

The sky isn't falling and isn't likely to fall anytime soon.

 

[UpperWestside 6104]

6 hours ago, slorch said:

Despite the best efforts of many, America still stands strong.

If you think we're not, well a shit ton of folks sure are trying to become Americans.

When that stops, you might have a point. For most of the self-loathing, those folks are just expressing their guilt complex. WGAF?

I still believe that there are enough good people in this country that we will survive our current crisis and come out stronger as a people. We have a lot going on with civil unrest and people just not liking one another on a personal level. 
 

I think communication with people who think differently is exceedingly important. We have to keep our lines of communication open as a society and remember we are all just people on the same road. Just help as many folks as you can on your own journey and be the person you want others to be.

[Neonmoon 38127]

32 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

The falcon cannot hear the falconer.

Things fall apart.

The centre cannot hold.

We live in the city of dreams
We drive on the highway of fire
Should we awake
And find it gone
Remember this, our favorite town

[Hate 20102]

4 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

I still believe that there are enough good people in this country that we will survive our current crisis and come out stronger as a people. We have a lot going on with civil unrest and people just not liking one another on a personal level. 
 

I think communication with people who think differently is exceedingly important. We have to keep our lines of communication open as a society and remember we are all just people on the same road. Just help as many folks as you can on your own journey and be the person you want others to be.

Go to the CR and you'll see why there is a divide.  Fly over country?  Deplorables??  I've said it before, but spite is a hell of a drug.

[UpperWestside 6104]

1 minute ago, Hate said:

Go to the CR and you'll see why there is a divide.  Fly over country?  Deplorables??  I've said it before, but spite is a hell of a drug.

Oh I am aware. I post in there, but I do think at some point we all need to step back from the brink and talk to one another as human beings. I may not like everything I see happening, but I would rather try and build a bridge with those folks I do not agree with rather than shun them completely. If you take the road filled with hate it’ll burn you up. We have one life to live and we should focus on taking advantage of that gift as a society. 

[52-80 19066]

9 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

I still believe that there are enough good people in this country that we will survive our current crisis and come out stronger as a people. We have a lot going on with civil unrest and people just not liking one another on a personal level. 
 

I think communication with people who think differently is exceedingly important. We have to keep our lines of communication open as a society and remember we are all just people on the same road. Just help as many folks as you can on your own journey and be the person you want others to be.

measures of freedom of the press, govt corruption, democratic indexes, strength of economy, global significance and influence, and "soft power"... more or less as its always been.  4 years of a pretty ... odd presidency.... has brainwormed many people and put them (permanently?) on edge.  but its passed.  and from a zoomed out perspective, america is still america.

 

[atomheartbevo 89362]

2 hours ago, 52-80 said:

America mints more immigrant millionaires (im looking at you, indians in silicon valley) than anywhere else in the world, so the wealth and opportunities is still plentiful. 

If a few greedy bastards want to shelter their tax in small islands so be it but youre not seeing them repatriate or expatriate to germany, sweden, france, or wherever idealists think is this foreign utopia

I was making a joke about the fact that we have three billionaires, including two of the richest, building their own space programs because they wanted to get off the planet for some reason, and the joke fell flat.

[immortal13 4059]

57 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

Doubtful on both. Not to get CR but Trump put everyone on notice of what a dictator might look like. He is a hated guy and his brand of dictatorship wouldn’t have even been that authoritarian. Americans on both sides of aisle resist that tremendously. 

America won’t fall any time soon. It’s going to continue a slow decline and like the British did with us, we will ultimately give way to the Chinese. Great Britain didn’t go anywhere. The civil unrest has been bad lately but was probably worse in the 60s. Civil unrest is mere noise when discussing the downfall of a society. 

Not to get CR? Get the fuck out here. This thread was started in the wrong foum to begin with. 

[atomheartbevo 89362]

1 minute ago, immortal13 said:

This thread was started in the wrong foum to begin with. 

A lot of this shit is much bigger than politics though.  DT is the closest thing this forum has to a general/catch-all forum as it is, and if this thread were in CR, it would devolve into microscopic examinations of political parties here in 2021, instead of looking at shit that has happened over the last 200 years, and shit that might happen over the next 100 years as sea levels keep rising or economics change (robotics anyone?).

[52-80 19066]

4 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

I was making a joke about the fact that we have three billionaires, including two of the richest, building their own space programs because they wanted to get off the planet for some reason, and the joke fell flat.

i got the reference, but also wanted to riff off it to express that america remains a highly desirable place for like... a brazillion people.  (my entire direct and extended family included.)

[Mole 4318]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

The falcon cannot hear the falconer.

Things fall apart.

The centre cannot hold.

Here is a symbol in which
Many high tragic thoughts
Watch their own eyes.
This gray rock, standing tall
On the headland, where the seawind
Lets no tree grow,
Earthquake-proved, and signatured
By ages of storms: on its peak

A falcon has perched.
I think, here is your emblem,
To hang in the future sky;
Not the cross, not the hive,
But this; bright power, dark peace; Fierce consciousness joined with final Disinterestedness;

[workswithseed 2033]

I think y'all should drink less, and smoke weed more.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Not to get CR? Get the fuck out here. This thread was started in the wrong foum to begin with. 

I’ve never not voted Republican pal. But, I didn’t vote in the POTUS election in 16 or 20. 

[immortal13 4059]

2 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

I think y'all should drink less, and smoke weed more.

That's my motto

[immortal13 4059]

2 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

I’ve never not voted Republican pal. But, I didn’t vote in the POTUS election in 16 or 20. 

Cool story, pal

[Biff Tannen 45477]

12 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

I think y'all should drink less, and smoke weed more.

Why not both?

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

16 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Not to get CR? Get the fuck out here. This thread was started in the wrong foum to begin with. 

12 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

A lot of this shit is much bigger than politics though.  DT is the closest thing this forum has to a general/catch-all forum as it is, and if this thread were in CR, it would devolve into microscopic examinations of political parties here in 2021, instead of looking at shit that has happened over the last 200 years, and shit that might happen over the next 100 years as sea levels keep rising or economics change (robotics anyone?).

I'm inclined to agree with immortal13, but you might have an argument that rather than a political science hypothetical/discussion it's a little more civics related; that is governments and a citizen's duty and obligation specifically as an American (since that was the original question).

 

[atomheartbevo 89362]

35 minutes ago, F250 said:

The U.S. isn't going anywhere as long as the petrodollar exists. Even without it our global influence might be reduced but the U.S. would remain a world super power. As someone mentioned even if we are surpassed by China which isn't happening in our lifetime, the U.S. would remain.

58 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

America won’t fall any time soon. It’s going to continue a slow decline and like the British did with us, we will ultimately give way to the Chinese. Great Britain didn’t go anywhere. The civil unrest has been bad lately but was probably worse in the 60s. Civil unrest is mere noise when discussing the downfall of a society. 

I do agree that the 60s were far more turbulent.

We have a huge favor in our benefit that the Chinese, Romans, and Brits, and other civilizations/empires that rose and fell (and even rose again) never had - we don't have anybody on our doorstep looking to knock us off our throne.   Except for the fucking Canadians, but they are too polite to come at us hard and fast, so while it has started with our entertainment industry, it'll be a while before they assimilate the rest of our society.

We also don't have a physical empire to lose like the Brits or Romans. 

Sure, we have an economic empire, but if shit goes sideways in Asia, what happens if we turn Brazil into hemisphere's version of China/Vietnam?  It'll be painful to start with, and we'll have some issues with certain materials/minerals that China has that maybe we here in the Western Hemisphere don't, but....we are still far safer than say the Romans or the Brits were when others decided to have a go at them and do some serious damage.

[52-80 19066]

 

56 minutes ago, F250 said:

The U.S. isn't going anywhere as long as the petrodollar exists.

Yep. Treasury auctions off trillions worth of bonds at (now) piss rates…and people still want them. And they should want America to be able to pay this 5,7,10,30 years down the road. The world craves the USDs. 

[atomheartbevo 89362]

18 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

i got the reference, but also wanted to riff off it to express that america remains a highly desirable place for like... a brazillion people.  (my entire direct and extended family included.)

Absolutely it does.  We maybe jaded because what our baby boomer parents saw or had access to is far different than what we do, but shitloads of people are still willing to give up everything to come here, because while we look down upon a lot of things here, those things are a boon to those from other countries. 

And that's not even getting into the people risking their lives.

I'm talking about the folks you mention - I've done a lot of genealogy research into my family, and while I understand a lot of the pressures driving the immigrants, I always ask myself "could I just walk away from my family and every person I've known and start all over with very little in a different country with a different language?"

I do think the American dream is still alive and kicking.

[Hate 20102]

5 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Sure, we have an economic empire, but if shit goes sideways in Asia, what happens if we turn Brazil into hemisphere's version of China/Vietnam?  It'll be painful to start with, and we'll have some issues with certain materials/minerals that China has that maybe we here in the Western Hemisphere don't, but....we are still far safer than say the Romans or the Brits were when others decided to have a go at them and do some serious damage.

This is exactly why I am a big proponent of a manufacturing Monroe Policy.  I'd love to bring all of our manufacturing back to the Western Hemisphere.

[atomheartbevo 89362]

4 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Yep. Treasury auctions off trillions worth of bonds at (now) piss rates…and people still want them. And they should want America to be able to pay this 5,7,10,30 years down the road. The world craves the USDs. 

Not just people, countries want in on this pie.

Yeah, we have problems, we have to think about rising seas (Florida is thinking about it right now) and economic issues, and all the other long-term stuff.

But even with all of that, we still represent a lot more stability than major chunks of the rest of the world, and it's reflected in the countries/companies that invest in us.

[atomheartbevo 89362]

2 minutes ago, Hate said:

This is exactly why I am a big proponent of a manufacturing Monroe Policy.  I'd love to bring all of our manufacturing back to the Western Hemisphere.

[atomheartbevo 89362]

13 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

I'm inclined to agree with immortal13, but you might have an argument that rather than a political science hypothetical/discussion it's a little more civics related; that is governments and a citizen's duty and obligation specifically as an American (since that was the original question).

It's civics, historical, economic, etc.

If it's in CR, it's just going to be people comparing one party to another, and there's plenty of threads for that already.

This thread's topic is a great topic to me, because I'm a huge alternate history fan, and it's interesting as hell to ponder how things could have turned out different for empires of the past. And not just European or Asian, but native North and South American empires, although the whole disease thing pretty much screwed them no matter what. 

When you dive into where those empires fell, and what could have kept them going, you start to see a few similarities to the US, but more importantly, you see things with the US that weren't present in those other empires.  For starters, we have so much physical breathing room in the form of the Atlantic and Pacific, that allows us to correct our problems.

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

I do agree that the 60s were far more turbulent.

We have a huge favor in our benefit that the Chinese, Romans, and Brits, and other civilizations/empires that rose and fell (and even rose again) never had - we don't have anybody on our doorstep looking to knock us off our throne.   Except for the fucking Canadians, but they are too polite to come at us hard and fast, so while it has started with our entertainment industry, it'll be a while before they assimilate the rest of our society.

We also don't have a physical empire to lose like the Brits or Romans. 

Sure, we have an economic empire, but if shit goes sideways in Asia, what happens if we turn Brazil into hemisphere's version of China/Vietnam?  It'll be painful to start with, and we'll have some issues with certain materials/minerals that China has that maybe we here in the Western Hemisphere don't, but....we are still far safer than say the Romans or the Brits were when others decided to have a go at them and do some serious damage.

British Empire never “fell”. It just waned in size and then we overtook. British Empire still exists to this day. 

And in most of our lifetimes, the Chinese economy will overtake us. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Porterhouse

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

I'm inclined to agree with immortal13, but you might have an argument that rather than a political science hypothetical/discussion it's a little more civics related; that is governments and a citizen's duty and obligation specifically as an American (since that was the original question).

 

It’s my bad bringing CR into the equation by bringing up Trump. I was responding to neonmoon’s comment about “maybe we have a dictator”. I seriously doubt that, and used a recent flashpoint as an example. I apologize. 

[Murfdogg21 4412]

1 hour ago, UpperWestside said:

Oh I am aware. I post in there, but I do think at some point we all need to step back from the brink and talk to one another as human beings. I may not like everything I see happening, but I would rather try and build a bridge with those folks I do not agree with rather than shun them completely. If you take the road filled with hate it’ll burn you up. We have one life to live and we should focus on taking advantage of that gift as a society. 

Look who you’re talking to though!

[atomheartbevo 89362]

3 hours ago, Don Johnson said:

Without a doubt. Most in that group have no purpose and some think they are modern day revolutionaries. 

1 hour ago, UpperWestside said:

I still believe that there are enough good people in this country that we will survive our current crisis and come out stronger as a people. We have a lot going on with civil unrest and people just not liking one another on a personal level. 

1 hour ago, Hate said:

I've said it before, but spite is a hell of a drug.

For all of the anger that we may see in our society right now, it's not being acted upon like it was in the past. . I have relatives and acquaintances (co-workers, a couple of Army buddies, a group of high school friends) that believe in some of the conspiracy theories arising from the events of 2020.  But out of that dozen or so people I know who I have seen posting that stuff or heard talking about it, none of them are in the streets, shooting up people or places that have differing views than they do.  You can argue that they don't believe that stuff and are just upset, or that they are too comfortable to want to rock the boat, and you can argue that because they can vent online, that lets the pressure off.

Regardless, they aren't acting upon it, and it's nothing like the 1860s when 600,000 Americans died in a war fought between Americans.  

Nor is it as bad as the 1960s, particularly from that period of 1963 when JFK was killed, up through the civil rights violence, up through MLK's and RFK's assassinations in '68, and even on into 1970 and the Kent State shootings, and all of that was against a backdrop of an unpopular war that raged on with no end in sight.  That's a sitting President, the leading civil rights leader, and another potential President killed in less than 5 years, with an unpopular war sucking in young people.

The things that happened in America in the 1860s and 1960s would have ended many, many lesser countries.

I think we have enough good people still here and I don't think the US crumbles in our lifetimes, but then again, I'll be lucky if I'm around 30 years from now.

Looking 40 years down the road, here's my concerns though:

• COVID put a notice on a lot of businesses/business types that they aren't as vital, at least not in-person, as they'd like to think.  Take your pick, whether that's in-person shopping (stores being replaced by Amazon Prime shipping) or in-person entertainment (movie theaters vs 60-inch+ TVs at home) or whatever.
• Amazon and others will get the whole robot worker thing down for a lot of jobs, and a lot of those jobs are currently filled by young and/or unskilled people.  Unskilled is not the best of words, but you know what I mean - lots of manual labor jobs, eventually delivery jobs.  What do we do with those people?
• Tying into #2, we will see the march of technology.  My grandfathers were farmers, and in their lifetimes, it went from their youth where 10 people could do X amount of farm work, to 30-40 years down the road when they were doing several times the amount of work those 10 people were doing.

And finally, what happens when the social media generation is in their 40s and 50s?  The kids who are growing up now, who are getting into their early 20s, who are always online in some manner.  Are they going to be able to handle shifts in society?  Or are they all going to be selling NFTs to one another?

[UpperWestside 6104]

24 minutes ago, Murfdogg21 said:

Look who you’re talking to though!

There is so much misplaced hate and anger right now. We should be attempting to bring people back into the fold of modern society. I do believe that the hate and spite possessed by millions of our fellow citizens is not going away anytime soon. However, I do not look at all of them as a lost cause.

Sometimes you have to be the one doing the changing and in the process help others out that need a kickstart to get their life back to some semblance of normalcy. We have really lost that ability to connect with and help each other and it shows in how our society functions.

[Shady Ray 1633]

2 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

Oh I am aware. I post in there, but I do think at some point we all need to step back from the brink and talk to one another as human beings. I may not like everything I see happening, but I would rather try and build a bridge with those folks I do not agree with rather than shun them completely. If you take the road filled with hate it’ll burn you up. We have one life to live and we should focus on taking advantage of that gift as a society. 

This something I often think about: Do we have the ability as a society to turn the ship around and engage in some form of constructive national dialogue anymore, or are we too polarized/convinced of our own righteousness for that? Because I see that as critical to the future security/success of the US. If we cannot learn to do that again, we will not be able to collectively survive the inevitable challenges that are coming ahead in a world where our global standing/position is challenged.

 

Over the past couple of years I have gotten into watching old talk shows from before my day, such as the Dick Cavett Show, Firing Line, etc. One thing that always strikes me is the complete degradation of discourse (and intelligence) in the public forum of today when compared to that era.

 

Even topics that would have generally been unpopular with the general electorate at the time were still discussed thoughtfully and their advocates - were treated respectfully and at least listened to. The audience genuinely seemed to be there to consume a rational discussion, not to simply consume low-hanging political "red meat" thrown to them by the host excoriating those on the other side of the aisle. And I know it wasn't all sunshine and roses in that era by any means (see Buckley vs. Gore Vidal ha!), but strictly with respect to "thought leaders" and media treatment of ideological adversaries, there is no comparison.

 

Just for reference, Dick Cavett speaking with Brando about Native American rights/portrayal in popular culture and William F. Buckley interviewing Muhammad Ali discussing the Race and the Nation of Islam. It is so refreshing, but at the same time, it is so sad to see the depths that we have fallen wrt to public discourse. None of these type of interactions would be possible today. It wouldn't get enough ratings and the masses would not be able to sit down and simply listen for such an extended period of time.

 

And while there are so many contributing factors as to why we are in the state we are in wrt to discourse, I personally lay much of the blame at the feet of a 24-hour news cycle that found out early on that monetizing outrage was a winning business formula. I genuinely hope that we can get away from that for our own collective sake.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Shady Ray

[UpperWestside 6104]

Thanks for that post and the videos. I want to watch them later today when I have time. There is a few from James Baldwin during that time where he debated thoughts and ideas. The thoughtfulness and respect in those old clips is a far cry from today.

The yelling and screaming accomplish absolutely nothing except lining the pockets of news networks who know we have millions of people who live for the ridiculous drama they see on these network shows. 

[Hermanator 6916]

7 hours ago, Harrison Bergeron said:

This 1000%. Our idea of "have nots" is hilarious not only compared to the rest of the world but compared to history. The poorest Americans are still global 1%ers. But you're right, we're addicted to whining because we do not have any real, existential threats.

Not sure that's correct. Poverty and starvation in America is growing in percentage rate. It's getting worse every year. 

Overall: Over 38 million Americans (11.8 percent) lived in households that struggled against food insecurity, or lack of access to an affordable, nutritious diet. This represents a 9 percent increase from 2019.

One in 25 (3.9 percent) of households in the U.S. experienced very low food security, a more severe form of food insecurity, where households report regularly skipping meals or reducing intake because they could not afford more food.

Children: 1 in 7 (14.8 percent) households with children could not buy enough food for their families, considerably higher than the rate for households without children (8.8 percent).

Rural: Households in rural areas experienced deeper struggles with hunger compared to those in metro areas, with higher rates of food insecurity overall (11.6 percent in rural areas compared to 10.4 percent in metro areas).

Race and ethnicity: Black (21.7 percent) and Latinx (17.2 percent) households are disproportionately impacted by food insecurity, with food insecurity rates in 2020 triple and double the rate of White households (7.1 percent), respectively.

https://frac.org/hunger-poverty-america

[TwiceHorn 31184]

21 minutes ago, Shady Ray said:

This something I often think about: Do we have the ability as a society to turn the ship around and engage in some form of constructive national dialogue anymore, or are we too polarized/convinced of our own righteousness for that? Because I see that as critical to the future security/success of the US. If we cannot learn to do that again, we will not be able to collectively survive the inevitable challenges that are coming ahead in a world where our global standing/position is challenged.

 

Over the past couple of years I have gotten into watching old talk shows from before my day, such as the Dick Cavett Show, Firing Line, etc. One thing that always strikes me is the complete degradation of discourse (and intelligence) in the public forum of today when compared to that era.

 

Even topics that would have generally been unpopular with the general electorate at the time were still discussed thoughtfully and their advocates - were treated respectfully and at least listened to. The audience genuinely seemed to be there to consume a rational discussion, not to simply consume low-hanging political "red meat" thrown to them by the host excoriating those on the other side of the aisle. And I know it wasn't all sunshine and roses in that era by any means (see Buckley vs. Gore Vidal ha!), but strictly with respect to "thought leaders" and media treatment of ideological adversaries, there is no comparison.

 

Just for reference, Dick Cavett speaking with Brando about Native American rights/portrayal in popular culture and William F. Buckley interviewing Muhammad Ali discussing the Race and the Nation of Islam. It is so refreshing, but at the same time, it is so sad to see the depths that we have fallen wrt to public discourse. None of these type of interactions would be possible today. It wouldn't get enough ratings and the masses would not be able to sit down and simply listen for such an extended period of time.

 

And while there are so many contributing factors as to why we are in the state we are in wrt to discourse, I personally lay much of the blame at the feet of a 24-hour news cycle that found out early on that monetizing outrage was a winning business formula. I genuinely hope that we can get away from that for our own collective sake.

 

 

 

 

Media has betrayed us in many ways.  It's not just Fox News vs. MSNBC.

I heard this history of the Turner empire on NPR.  At some point, I think related to national cable broadcasting, Turner was required to add news to the sports and syndicated shows that played on his network/channels.  He loathed having to do it, so he initially hired some cranky type hosts and kind of made a mild mockery out of it, which then turned into news as "infotainment" and then CNN as it's known today.

In addition to the civil unrest in the 60s, I think the political climate in the 30s was pretty polarized too, and, of course, accompanied by the Depression.

Edited December 12, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[UpperWestside 6104]

This thread has some really good thought provoking stuff in it. I was not expecting to read something this engaging tonight, but it’s cool to see discourse happen.

[workswithseed 2033]

I'm drunk

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9 hours ago, Harrison Bergeron said:

This 1000%. Our idea of "have nots" is hilarious not only compared to the rest of the world but compared to history. The poorest Americans are still global 1%ers. 

1 hour ago, Hermanator said:

Not sure that's correct. Poverty and starvation in America is growing in percentage rate. It's getting worse every year. 

Overall: Over 38 million Americans (11.8 percent) lived in households that struggled against food insecurity, or lack of access to an affordable, nutritious diet. This represents a 9 percent increase from 2019.

I was going to touch on this earlier but Hermanator nailed it - there are plenty of really, really poor people in this country.  

We can joke about $300 50-inch 4K TVs, etc., but the reality is that there is a shitload of people who are living paycheck-to-paycheck.  My wife has worked in education for 15 or so years, and has worked/taught at schools in poor neighborhoods, and it's a major fucking contrast to even just lower-middle-class.  A lot of kids in those poor neighborhoods, the best meals they will have that day/week will be breakfast and lunch at the school, and that's not saying much given school cafeteria food.  Way too many single-parent homes where the parent is working multiple jobs and has no energy or time to help the kids with their homework, which hurts them in the long run.

My oldest does service projects with Cub Scouts as well, and we've seen it through that aspect as well.

To be blunt, if we had debtor prisons, they'd be full.

With that said, the situation is manageable - they won't rise up and cause the US to fall apart and we would probably do quite a bit to keep from reaching that point.

Edited December 12, 2021 by atomheartbevo

[Helobious 9477]

4 hours ago, Hate said:

Go to the CR and you'll see why there is a divide.  Fly over country?  Deplorables??  I've said it before, but spite is a hell of a drug.

Not suprising you only see it as a one-sided issue. That’s part of the problem & why nothing improves.

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1 hour ago, Shady Ray said:

Over the past couple of years I have gotten into watching old talk shows from before my day, such as the Dick Cavett Show, Firing Line, etc. One thing that always strikes me is the complete degradation of discourse (and intelligence) in the public forum of today when compared to that era.

I've been watching old Johnny Carson shows, and even with guests like Buddy Hackett, you'd still get some intelligent discourse, and most of the guests, if the topic came up, could discuss a variety of issues, whether local, national, or international, and even if they'd cracked jokes, the jokes showed that they were aware of/had thought about those issues.

But that also makes me wonder, and I wonder if it somewhat ties into your comments about Buckley and Cavett and their guests, if it's because those generations had been around during the Depression, WWII and/or the 50s.  Well, Cavett was born in '38 (didn't realize he was still alive), and Ali was born in '42, but they both came of age at a time when world affairs dominated the newspapers and TV shows, and you couldn't help but beware of the bigger things going on.  People were concerned about world affairs.  We had 16 million military veterans after WWII, and many, even if they hadn't been overseas, had paid close attention.

The airwaves, magazines, etc. also, as you and @TwiceHorn pointed out, were not flooded with stupid non-news shit like what too many people get wrapped up in these days, whether it's social influencers just dumb celebrity shit.

It's not that the trashy non-news stuff didn't exist or wasn't in the magazines or whatever, but you had to actively seek it out back then, and you typically paid money for it (tabloids and the like).  Plus, a lot of celebrities back then had handlers and managers that cultivated a certain image, and you didn't see them doing stupid shit and reveling in it, and feeding off of an adoring public who encouraged them to do more stupid shit, and normalizing it for that adoring public.

I've got a friend who makes the argument that just as Rome suffered from internal decay, that we are as well, that we've turned inward and are too obsessed with ourselves and I tend to agree that it's a huge issue.

Which is ironic, because we can get raw/unfiltered news and even live streaming of events happening around the country and the world within seconds, and we've got the world's informatino/knowledge at our fingertips these days.  We should be much better informed about a lot more stuff than we are, but the discourse is a problem or even non-existent.

Again, I don't think we are crumbling just yet, but I also don't think the direction we are headed is doing us any favors.   What happens when kids who grow up and get their news in 288 characters or a few dozen words that flash across the notification screen of their phone while they try to swipe it away are adults in their 30s/40s and have a hard time figuring out the news or who to trust?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Shady Ray said:

This something I often think about: Do we have the ability as a society to turn the ship around and engage in some form of constructive national dialogue anymore, or are we too polarized/convinced of our own righteousness for that? Because I see that as critical to the future security/success of the US. If we cannot learn to do that again, we will not be able to collectively survive the inevitable challenges that are coming ahead in a world where our global standing/position is challenged.

We don't have a choice.  This isn't the 1860s where a lot of the disagreements could be somewhat separated/mitigated by geographical boundaries (sorry border states).  

With that said, while things are not perfect, and as polarized as people may be, they can try and construct echo chambers around themselves but at some point they'll want to watch a TV show or movie or sporting event, or get out and shop or travel whatever, and they'll have to watch or engage with people they normally wouldn't. It's the proverbial "you gotta go along to get along" kind of thing.

Where I'm concerned is the economic aspect. Up through 100 years or so ago, we had outlet valves. People could head west and get some free land, or just spread out in general if the cities got too crowded for them.  

While we have the capability/capacity to help people out now in the short term (look at all of the COVID stuff) like I said earlier, what happens when the lower economic class(es) expands rapidly as people are permanently pushed out of jobs/professiones by automation/etc.?  There's going to be a lot of resentment.  The strife/polarization we have now will pale compared to a decade or three down the road as large classes of people lose jobs and find themselves competing for fewer and fewer jobs. We aren't Rome and can't conscript them into the Army for 25 years or whatever.

 

[Bevo 13493]

I'm getting a vacation home overseas. It may be better over there. It may be worse. But, it is an alternative for my kids if the shit hit the fan. I don't consider it a big deal: My greats came here for a better life. I'm flexible and it gives us alternatives.