when does the United States crumble? will it happen in our lifetimes?

[hobbes2702 12771]

17 minutes ago, TKthunder2 said:

That’s great, and hourly employees at my company have to verify a soft token at each logon on their phone as well.  But for those without smart phones we are able to provide hard tokens.  It’s doesn’t happen often but we have a few hard tokens for when people lose their phones and once when an older guy shared a phone with his wife.  Most businesses have an option for those without.  It’s not impossible to find a job without a smart phone.  Inconvenient, absolutely.  But if the choice is straight up feeding your child or paying for your phone most of us would give up the phone in a heartbeat; but since we have multiple layers of safety nets here in the US, that is not a choice many people have to truly make.  Instead it’s pay my phone bill and feel a little shame when I go to the church pantry/food bank, or cancel my phone plan and buy groceries.

It’s food or the phone is so incredibly out of touch I don’t even know where to start. I think we will just have to disagree on this one.

[Ag with kids 581]

45 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

I don’t need my cell phone for work either but employees at my company that work hourly jobs clock in and out on their cell phone through an app. They view their schedule through an app. They change shifts through an app. They conduct a health screening through an app. They sell to customers through an app.

You keep doing this thing where you think everyone is as fortunate as you. That’s not how it works.

I worked in the Aerospace and Defense industry for almost 30 years.  Now I'm the chief engineer at a university research center.

I have never NEEDED my phone.  EVER.  Not for work.  Not for home.

It HAS been an ENORMOUS convenience, though.

BTW, I'm quite sure that all of those things that the employees at your company do on cell phones can be done without one (remember, not 100% people in the US have cell phones).  Is it way more CONVENIENT on the cell phone?  Hell yeah.  But a NECESSITY?  Probably not in most cases.

[Neonmoon 38127]

4 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

Explain exactly why? And please don't CR your answer...I self banned myself from that shithole and I'd like to know your answer.

 

BTW, when you get to the truly rich in the country, income equality is not really the term you should use with them.

I will try to keep this answer in the spirit of the thread topic. None of my answers have been CR in this thread. Poverty is an issue in the US just not a major issue in regards to any potential “crumbing” of the US. Poverty is not an major issue because we don’t have enough people in poverty. Poverty has actually been declining the past decade IIRC. 11% is not great but when 89% are not poor, the 11% aren’t going to rise up and take over the 89%

Income inequality is an issue in the long term. 

First off, income inequality has increased since 1970. The middle class is shrinking. 
https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-in-income-and-wealth-inequality/

So why is income inequality bad? In terms of affecting the US, It’s just another factor that will erode this nation. When the middle class shrinks, what is left? The not rich and the rich. That’s a division into two sides. Two sides lead to conflict. 

[hobbes2702 12771]

Just now, Ag with kids said:

I worked in the Aerospace and Defense industry for almost 30 years.  Now I'm the chief engineer at a university research center.

I have never NEEDED my phone.  EVER.  Not for work.  Not for home.

It HAS been an ENORMOUS convenience, though.

BTW, I'm quite sure that all of those things that the employees at your company do on cell phones can be done without one (remember, not 100% people in the US have cell phones).  Is it way more CONVENIENT on the cell phone?  Hell yeah.  But a NECESSITY?  Probably not in most cases.

Yea they could do it with a computer and internet access. The phone is cheaper. Welcome to the modern world.

[Ag with kids 581]

49 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

I think in a lot of shift work communicating through text is standard

Standard.  And convenient.

Not a necessity.

Cell phones have basically been EVERYWHERE for over 20 years.  Most younger people don't even remember a time that they weren't available.

Life existed and was quite successful before them.  Hell, seeing how most people are on their phones surfing what the fuck ever all day long, maybe they were more productive before the cell phone. 

[hobbes2702 12771]

3 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

Standard.  And convenient.

Not a necessity.

Cell phones have basically been EVERYWHERE for over 20 years.  Most younger people don't even remember a time that they weren't available.

Life existed and was quite successful before them.  Hell, seeing how most people are on their phones surfing what the fuck ever all day long, maybe they were more productive before the cell phone. 

Ok out of touch boomer 

[52-80 19066]

Take food insecurity as an example. The fed has the SNAP aka food stamps program, in addition to private food banks. Where and how is that failing to address food insecurity? 

My family were beneficiaries of it. Along with the free annual Thanksgiving turkey from banks and/or local church. The resources are out there. 

[Neonmoon 38127]

I think I get the simple argument now.

Food is a necessity to survive as a human. That is correct. 
A cell phone is not a necessity to survive as a human. That is correct. 

In the US, some believe there is a scenario where a person chooses paying their cell phone bill instead of buying food to feed their starving child.  I’m sure this is true in some. This makes them spoiled compared to starving children in Haiti. 

This line of thinking is rational, but it lacks compassion. And the simple fact that we don’t want to be Haiti. That isn’t the goal we should be striving for. 

[TwiceHorn 31184]

I have young nephews that were essentially raised by wolves (sister in law is bipolar and a meth addict, her husband is a piece of shit on and off drug addict) that did nothing to provide opportunity for their kids, and barely kept them fed and housed.

Accordingly, they are working low-level jobs and fast food.  The current employment situation may be different, but you cannot walk into any retail establishment and fill out a job application.  You must submit online (nor, usually, can you talk to a human being at any retail outlet about a job, it's done in Minneapolis or whatever, don't call us, we'll call you, or actually, email).  And yes, even the most low-level establishment does most of their scheduling online, via phone app.  Maybe not a landscaping outfit, but fast food, shit retail, you bet.

Text messages and a phone in your pocket are not just conveniences for employees and applicants, they're conveniences for the employers and managers who use them.  And it is highly inconvenient to those people who hire and fire if you do not have a cell phone.

A land line costs more than most cheap cell phone plans (at least $50/month).  Internet access costs multiple times what a cheap cell plan does.  You could go to the library, probably, and maybe do most of what you need to do, but that would be a flat-out bitch to keep track of unscheduled incoming information (job offers, schedules, schedule changes).

I think it is broadly true that the American poor have a higher standard of living than in many other countries.  But cell phones is a rotten example.

[Ag with kids 581]

23 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Yea they could do it with a computer and internet access. The phone is cheaper. Welcome to the modern world.

Or a home phone and using computers at work.

However did this happen prior to the emergence of the cell phone?

[Ag with kids 581]

18 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Ok out of touch boomer 

I am NOT a boomer.

 

I'm Gen X.  Fuck those old farts and their printing out of memes...

[TwiceHorn 31184]

5 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

Or a home phone and using computers at work.

However did this happen prior to the emergence of the cell phone?

As I pointed out, it is the EMPLOYERS that require this shit.  They don't take paper job applications anymore.  You can't hand anyone a resume. They don't have time cards to punch.  They don't hand out work schedules or put them on the white board.

Anything that involves any kind of corporate employer virtually requires a cell phone to obtain a job and keep it.

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[hobbes2702 12771]

5 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

Or a home phone and using computers at work.

However did this happen prior to the emergence of the cell phone?

A home phone is more expensive than a cell phone so is your issue the way they spend their money or just that it’s not the way you think they should because for some reason you still think it’s 1995.

That also doesn’t tell me how they should do their video chat interview to get the job. 

Anyway this is irrelevant to this thread and I apologize to the board for the derail.

Edited December 13, 2021 by hobbes2702

[TwiceHorn 31184]

1 minute ago, hobbes2702 said:

A home phone is more expensive than a cell phone so is your issue the way they spend their money or just that it’s not the way you think they should because for some reason you still think it’s 1995.

Yep, cell phone and plan $35/month.

Land line, at least $50/month (and I haven't had one for 10 years, so it's probably up to 75-100).

And thanks in no small part to Ajit Pai and the Trump FCC, broadband is at least $100/month.

[Judge Roybeanbag 11796]

37 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

I worked in the Aerospace and Defense industry for almost 30 years.  Now I'm the chief engineer at a university research center.

I have never NEEDED my phone.  EVER.  Not for work.  Not for home.

It HAS been an ENORMOUS convenience, though.

BTW, I'm quite sure that all of those things that the employees at your company do on cell phones can be done without one (remember, not 100% people in the US have cell phones).  Is it way more CONVENIENT on the cell phone?  Hell yeah.  But a NECESSITY?  Probably not in most cases.

I’m not sure what cutting edge outfit you work for, but a phone is an absolute necessity.  I’m pretty sure whoever you work for isn’t NIST compliant if you don’t have a phone.   Regardless your poo poo is stinky. 

[Brew 3044]

Holy fuck, this phone debate is stupid as hell. A cell phone is no longer a luxury, it is a necessity for most people. They don’t have home phones, they don’t have home computers, they have a cell phone that serves all purposes for less than what we were paying for a land line not that long ago. Move on, it’s fucking dumb and anyone that doesn’t think it’s a necessity in life at this point is likewise dumb.

[Ag with kids 581]

4 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I have young nephews that were essentially raised by wolves (sister in law is bipolar and a meth addict, her husband is a piece of shit on and off drug addict) that did nothing to provide opportunity for their kids, and barely kept them fed and housed.

Accordingly, they are working low-level jobs and fast food.  The current employment situation may be different, but you cannot walk into any retail establishment and fill out a job application.  You must submit online (nor, usually, can you talk to a human being at any retail outlet about a job, it's done in Minneapolis or whatever, don't call us, we'll call you, or actually, email).  And yes, even the most low-level establishment does most of their scheduling online, via phone app.  Maybe not a landscaping outfit, but fast food, shit retail, you bet.

Text messages and a phone in your pocket are not just conveniences for employees and applicants, they're conveniences for the employers and managers who use them.  And it is highly inconvenient to those people who hire and fire if you do not have a cell phone.

A land line costs more than most cheap cell phone plans (at least $50/month).  Internet access costs multiple times what a cheap cell plan does.  You could go to the library, probably, and maybe do most of what you need to do, but that would be a flat-out bitch to keep track of unscheduled incoming information (job offers, schedules, schedule changes).

I think it is broadly true that the American poor have a higher standard of living than in many other countries.  But cell phones is a rotten example.

Interesting.  I drop by my the McDs right by my work for coffee in in the morning and they have paper applications right next to the kiosks and I've seen the manager interview numerous people with their paper apps on the table.  BTW, ONLINE and CELL PHONE are not the same.

And..again...convenience and necessity are not the same thing.

BTW, I pointed out earlier that cell phones were just ONE example.

There're many others...like multiple HDTVs, cable/satellite/streaming services/etc.  In rural areas, guns/ammo can add up.

 

The point isn't CELL PHONES.  It's misplaced priorities.

For the truly poor, I'd 100% support the negative income tax proposed by Milton Friedman.

 

[Ag with kids 581]

22 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

As I pointed out, it is the EMPLOYERS that require this shit.  They don't take paper job applications anymore.  You can't hand anyone a resume. They don't have time cards to punch.  They don't hand out work schedules or put them on the white board.

Anything that involves any kind of corporate employer virtually requires a cell phone to obtain a job and keep it.

 

Any fast food or low level retail (which is where these poor people can work) definitely do paper apps...

[hobbes2702 12771]

3 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

Any fast food or low level retail (which is where these poor people can work) definitely do paper apps...

There are zero paper apps at my company. Why do you keep doing this?

[HornOnTheBayou 8877]

1 hour ago, Ag with kids said:

Explain exactly why? And please don't CR your answer...I self banned myself from that shithole and I'd like to know your answer.

Whether you like it or not, governance is going to play a large role in the economy and wealth inequality. How do you not bring politics into the discussion? It would be like asking you to explain why the Longhorns season went south this year, but don't bring up Steve Sarkisian. Sure, there's lots of blame to go around for this season and you could give you an answer without involving Sarkisian, but it wouldn't be a complete answer. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by HornOnTheBayou

[HornOnTheBayou 8877]

38 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

Or a home phone and using computers at work.

However did this happen prior to the emergence of the cell phone?

So your argument is that cell phones weren't necessary in a time before cell phones were invented?

[TwiceHorn 31184]

9 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

Any fast food or low level retail (which is where these poor people can work) definitely do paper apps...

Not my nephews' recent experience, at all.  I'm not sure they applied at McDonald's, but almost every place required an online application.

Target, Home Depot, Sams, Walmart, various retail clothing establishments at malls.  It may vary some by franchisee and location for fast food.

 

[UT_OB1 2200]

1 hour ago, hobbes2702 said:

Cool. I just explained how hourly employees at my company need a phone in order to do their job. We certainly aren’t the only ones. That’s a real world example of the necessity of cell phones. 
Our company also no longer does in person interviews for hourly employees. We do video calls. I guess they could try going to a public library and hoping they can install software they need in order to do the call.

It’s 2021 the IPhone is no longer the boogeyman for how poor people spend their money improperly. 

None of the hourly workers at my plant need a phone. None are required to clock in by phone. Many plants and refineries ban phones in the units and/or plants. 

[Ag with kids 581]

29 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

I’m not sure what cutting edge outfit you work for, but a phone is an absolute necessity.  I’m pretty sure whoever you work for isn’t NIST compliant if you don’t have a phone.   Regardless your poo poo is stinky. 

We're quite NIST compliant.

I won't contest your last point....

[TwiceHorn 31184]

20 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

Interesting.  I drop by my the McDs right by my work for coffee in in the morning and they have paper applications right next to the kiosks and I've seen the manager interview numerous people with their paper apps on the table.  BTW, ONLINE and CELL PHONE are not the same.

And..again...convenience and necessity are not the same thing.

BTW, I pointed out earlier that cell phones were just ONE example.

There're many others...like multiple HDTVs, cable/satellite/streaming services/etc.  In rural areas, guns/ammo can add up.

 

The point isn't CELL PHONES.  It's misplaced priorities.

For the truly poor, I'd 100% support the negative income tax proposed by Milton Friedman.

 

I conceded that the standard of living of poor Americans is high, relative to a whole lot of the world.

It isn't about cell phones and cell phones are a rotten example of misplaced priorities within that standard of living.

You are just so convinced that the poor are poor by choice, or by poor choices.  As if you've never made a poor choice.

It must be fun being that judgmental.

[Celery Man 20874]

47 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

I'm Gen X. 

Gen X? Never heard of it.

[workswithseed 2033]

15 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

There are zero paper apps at my company. Why do you keep doing this?

You work for a fast food place? When I was looking for extra money, I had some places that didn't do paper applications, and some that did. It's a real mixed bag.

[Ag with kids 581]

15 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

There are zero paper apps at my company. Why do you keep doing this?

I'm glad you're not living in the lower class,  Congrats?

 But, are you saying that you can ONLY apply at your company on a cell phone?

[Ag with kids 581]

1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

I conceded that the standard of living of poor Americans is high, relative to a whole lot of the world.

It isn't about cell phones and cell phones are a rotten example of misplaced priorities within that standard of living.

You are just so convinced that the poor are poor by choice, or by poor choices.  As if you've never made a poor choice.

It must be fun being that judgmental.

At NO time did I say that.  Please don't CR this thread.

[hobbes2702 12771]

Just now, Ag with kids said:

I'm glad you're not living in the lower class,  Congrats?

 But, are you saying that you can ONLY apply at your company on a cell phone?

I never made a single comment on my class or the class of anyone else. You keep talking about retail companies like you know. I’m telling you that you don’t from my firsthand experience working for one.
I’m not derailing this thread any further. All of this has been asked and answered for you but you don’t like the answer because you don’t like how popes spend their money.

[TwiceHorn 31184]

1 minute ago, Ag with kids said:

I'm glad you're not living in the lower class,  Congrats?

 But, are you saying that you can ONLY apply at your company on a cell phone?

Probably "online" too.  But you're insane if you think a home PC and internet connection aren't many times more expensive than a cheap cell phone.

Which points up the fact that a lot of poors need a home PC and internet connection for school.  That's a recurrent problem, particularly since COVID.  A lot of schools give away chromebooks, but that doesn't solve the internet connection problem.

[hobbes2702 12771]

 

Probably "online" too.  But you're insane if you think a home PC and internet connection aren't many times more expensive than a cheap cell phone.

Which points up the fact that a lot of poors need a home PC and internet connection for school.  That's a recurrent problem, particularly since COVID.  A lot of schools give away chromebooks, but that doesn't solve the internet connection problem.

They don’t care about the actual answer Twice.

[TwiceHorn 31184]

7 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

At NO time did I say that.  Please don't CR this thread.

Not a shred of politics there, friendo.

Fair inferences from what you have posted in this thread.

Now, I happen to agree that poors do make a lot of poor choices, in a variety of areas.  Some of it is a psychology of poverty, in my opinion.  Some pure ignorance.  But they do have fewer choices than a lot of us think they have, and making good ones is not always easy.

And the consequences of their choices are visited on them immediately, with little chance of recovery, unlike you and me.

Edited December 13, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[Brew 3044]

1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

Probably "online" too.  But you're insane if you think a home PC and internet connection aren't many times more expensive than a cheap cell phone.

Which points up the fact that a lot of poors need a home PC and internet connection for school.  That's a recurrent problem, particularly since COVID.  A lot of schools give away chromebooks, but that doesn't solve the internet connection problem.

A lot of smaller communities set up rolling Wi-Fi hubs because of the sheer number of kids without home internet. My kids are in private school, even there we had kids without home internet. The phone has replaced a laundry list of things that were used separately not very long ago. 

[Ag with kids 581]

3 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

I never made a single comment on my class or the class of anyone else. You keep talking about retail companies like you know. I’m telling you that you don’t from my firsthand experience working for one.
I’m not derailing this thread any further. All of this has been asked and answered for you but you don’t like the answer because you don’t like how popes spend their money.

You're not getting my point.  It's not about poor people.  It's about how Americans prioritize things.  We're kind of bad at that.

[hobbes2702 12771]

1 minute ago, Ag with kids said:

You're not getting my point.  It's not about poor people.  It's about how Americans prioritize things.  We're kind of bad at that.

Your point is moronic and poorly illustrated by the example you gave. Which is everyone else’s point

[TwiceHorn 31184]

4 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

You're not getting my point.  It's not about poor people.  It's about how Americans prioritize things.  We're kind of bad at that.

Well, I don't NEED a cell phone for anything in particular, really.  I probably do need a phone, though.  And a PC of some sort and an internet connection.  We ditched landlines because they were expensive.  

And Americans do have some whacked out priorities, particularly as concerns material things.  And entertainment.

But you made your point in the context of a discussion on poverty without broadening it out to Americans generally.  So you should do that next time.

Edited December 13, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[UT_OB1 2200]

13 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I conceded that the standard of living of poor Americans is high, relative to a whole lot of the world.

It isn't about cell phones and cell phones are a rotten example of misplaced priorities within that standard of living.

You are just so convinced that the poor are poor by choice, or by poor choices.  As if you've never made a poor choice.

It must be fun being that judgmental.

I may be getting posters mixed up, but I believe this started with an figure implying our hunger issues were an issue, and that being that this is a thread about the end of the US, the hungry and poor were going to eat the rich (my whiskey fueled interpretation). The counterpoint was that - yes, we have some hunger issues, but our safety nets in place make our hunger issues (and poor issues) relatively small to many counties. One of the reasons other pointed out that people are still trying to come here.  So currently, it is unlikely that the poor/hunger problem is going to destroy the US. 

 

Now your last 3 sentences, that’s why many are worried we are going to crumble because we can’t communicate civilly with each other. 

[Ag with kids 581]

6 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, I don't NEED a cell phone for anything in particular, really.  I probably do need a phone, though.  And a PC of some sort and an internet connection.  We ditched landlines because they were expensive.  

And Americans do have some whacked out priorities, particularly as concerns material things.  And entertainment.

But you made your point in the context of a discussion on poverty without broadening it out to Americans generally.  So you should do that next time.

I addressed a specific thing earlier in this thread with my comment.  I did NOT address poverty in general.  I even said that.  I only used cell phones as an example.  In retrospect, I should have realized everyone would focus specifically on the cell phone and not the point of my comment...

My bad.

[Ag with kids 581]

13 minutes ago, UT_OB1 said:

I may be getting posters mixed up, but I believe this started with an figure implying our hunger issues were an issue, and that being that this is a thread about the end of the US, the hungry and poor were going to eat the rich (my whiskey fueled interpretation). The counterpoint was that - yes, we have some hunger issues, but our safety nets in place make our hunger issues (and poor issues) relatively small to many counties. One of the reasons other pointed out that people are still trying to come here.  So currently, it is unlikely that the poor/hunger problem is going to destroy the US. 

 

Now your last 3 sentences, that’s why many are worried we are going to crumble because we can’t communicate civilly with each other. 

Yes.  You are correct.

[fattyflattie 4636]

1 hour ago, hobbes2702 said:

Yea they could do it with a computer and internet access. The phone is cheaper. Welcome to the modern world.

Smart phone is cheaper my ass. My phone costs 2x what I paid for the several chromebooks I bought the kids.  Really good internet service is half my cell service.  I guess you can “buy” a iPhone 4 somewhere at goodwill or something. 

[hobbes2702 12771]

3 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Smart phone is cheaper my ass. My phone costs 2x what I paid for the several chromebooks I bought the kids.  Really good internet service is half my cell service.  I guess you can “buy” a iPhone 4 somewhere at goodwill or something. 

Or you can buy any number of cheaper alternatives than the iPhone and pay as you go plans for your minutes. You can say cheaper your ass if you want but you’re just factually wrong.

[Harrison Bergeron 1798]

Can anyone post the obituary of anyone in the US that's starved to death in the last 50 years?

[atomheartbevo 89362]

2 minutes ago, Harrison Bergeron said:

Can anyone post the obituary of anyone in the US that's starved to death in the last 50 years?

Literally, or metaphorically?  Because metaphorically, I'd start here: https://www.surlyhorns.com/board/index.php?/forum/2-football/

Do we have people dying in the gutters of starvation?  No (well, we do, but usually they have other issues such as drug problems). Do we have malnourishment causing a host of health issues down the road? Yep.

It is a problem right now?  Depends on your viewpoint.  Will it be a problem in 40 years?  Depends on climate-related stuff, but assuming we can still cheaply feed people through future versions of SNAP, etc., it won't be a problem in that sense, but if we are still having to do that for people in 40 years, it'll be a symptom of other issues that can gnaw away at our society.

[fattyflattie 4636]

12 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Or you can buy any number of cheaper alternatives than the iPhone and pay as you go plans for your minutes. You can say cheaper your ass if you want but you’re just factually wrong.

Either way, you can have a pretty solid chrome book for less than $500 and internet that 5 people in my house continuously stream off of for $65/mo.     I dgaf if they choose to spend their money of phones over feeding their kids, most are ignorant and make bad choices anyhow, so why would I be surprised.  But to act like they need a fucking smartphone to flip fries or mop floors is fucking stupid.  We tried to make our employees check in on some app as we had reason to believe some weren’t always present and we got a letter from the attorney saying we had to provide them a cell if we required them to have one.  Dumb ass argument is dumb. 

[hobbes2702 12771]

So they should spend more money on something less functional. Great argument.

I think it’s pretty clear what you think about those less fortunate than yourself. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by hobbes2702

[atomheartbevo 89362]

2 hours ago, 52-80 said:

There will need to be people to build and service those robots.

The manufacturing lines will be automated, and as for servicing/repairing the robots, It's not going to be the guy who stocked the shelves at Walmart and was replaced by that robot, or the cashier who worked at that Walmart for that matter.  

2 hours ago, 52-80 said:

The automation will bring increased efficiency, lowering costs for everyone…and/or reward the innovators with capital that hopefully gets spent back in the economy.  Fewer jobs bagging groceries -> more jobs building pleasure boats. 

In general we shouldn’t harbor technophobia. It brings widespread QOL improvements across all classes of people. Imagine people back in the days worrying that their 11 year olds would no longer have a job at the textile factory…

It's not about technophobia, it's about planning for a future where a shit-ton of people are going to be replaced.  Not made more efficient, not replaced in one industry while a a new industry opens up elsewhere that can accommodate them, because the point is to replace as much human labor as possible.  The companies doing this are not out to make people more efficient, they are out to replace employees with machines that don't need to sleep or need time off, and will never try and unionize (well not until the A.I. War of 2034, but yeah, I need to shut the fuck up about that before somebody from 2038 pays me a visit).

We had pressure valves in the past when we had major technical breakthroughs - new industries constantly cropping up, that didn't require higher education for a lot of jobs.  A new machine in 1890 that allowed one person to do the work of four?  Well, somebody has to build or service that machine, and somebody (or two somebodies) has to help haul away the increased output from that machine and get it shipped, and those job openings could all be filled by the three people that were replaced by the machine.

Those jobs for 11 year-olds at textile factories going away?  There were always replacement jobs for those folks (except during economic depressions/etc.). The next generation didn't have 8 or 9 kids, and so on.  In fact, we are currently below our replacement level of births, and somebody better start having kids.  The point is, there was always some kind of change going on and we could adjust.

But this is a new issue.  If we crumble as a nation, it's not going to be because of outside aggressors or political issues, it's going to be because we don't figure out how to anticipate and head off these kinds of problems.  People bitched about covid payouts to people idled at home, but what do we do when a few million people are replaced by automation in a short amount of time?

[TwiceHorn 31184]

1 hour ago, UT_OB1 said:

I may be getting posters mixed up, but I believe this started with an figure implying our hunger issues were an issue, and that being that this is a thread about the end of the US, the hungry and poor were going to eat the rich (my whiskey fueled interpretation). The counterpoint was that - yes, we have some hunger issues, but our safety nets in place make our hunger issues (and poor issues) relatively small to many counties. One of the reasons other pointed out that people are still trying to come here.  So currently, it is unlikely that the poor/hunger problem is going to destroy the US. 

 

Now your last 3 sentences, that’s why many are worried we are going to crumble because we can’t communicate civilly with each other. 

No, I didn't bring up the hunger issue.  That sort of "extreme poverty" is less an issue in the US than elsewhere.  But there is a health issue related to unavailability of fresh, real food in many if not most economically disadvantaged areas.  That's one of those areas where the poor are actually "steered" to make bad choices.

I don't think I was uncivil.  Perhaps a bit snarky.  Pretty mild by surly standards.

[Neonmoon 38127]

Atom has a point. When Covid took out the hospitality industry, millions of unemployed led to higher crime. No jobs, meant people need to steal to get resources. If automation increases unemployment, and not just temporarily, then that could affect stability. David Chang had an episode about it. What will happen when technology replaces some food industry jobs like cooks? The food industry employs a shit ton of unskilled labor. Technology won’t replace everyone, but it will try. I went to an advanced McDonalds in Chicago. One of the nicest places I’ve ever been. They had like 1 person you could see. Everyone ordered at Kiosks. The employee took the food from the kitchen pass to the pickup spot. If Tech replaced cooks. Just more people without jobs. 
 

edit: added video of automated fry cook

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Neonmoon

[TwiceHorn 31184]

56 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Smart phone is cheaper my ass. My phone costs 2x what I paid for the several chromebooks I bought the kids.  Really good internet service is half my cell service.  I guess you can “buy” a iPhone 4 somewhere at goodwill or something. 

Dude, you can go to MetroPCS and get a kinda shitty Android smartphone for "free" by switching or signing up and a cell plan for $40/month.  I am sure there are other, cheaper deals available.

People keep imposing their upper-class white folk assumptions on this deal.

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by TwiceHorn