Property tax-free, clergy homes

[Johnny Sack 8397]

1 hour ago, Chewbacca said:

Lulz at Sack being more connected to nature than 99 percent of the world. He's a fucking lawyer. Spending time on Meemaw's yacht and ranches doesn't exactly make you one with nature, John.

You post a lot of shit about me that isn’t true.  Keep on though.  

[Chewbacca 7665]

You post a lot of shit about me that isn’t true.  Keep on though.  

I only know so much about you because you tell us. Tell us again about the family's (i.e., not yours) property in CO or the multiple large south Texas ranches.

[Willfully Horn 7911]

3 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

Most golf courses recycle their water.  And there is no restoring it to natural habitat.  It would be divided into new home lots and concrete streets.  Which would be far worse for the environment than a golf course.

Cut off the water. Play golf like I imagine folks do in Scotland. If not, start a new thing. Zero-golf. As natural as God chooses it to be. Random needs a greater voice. I’d watch just to see heads exploding.

Library haters can fuck off.

[cactusflinthead 27588]

11 hours ago, Lobo said:

There is an insane amount of educational and fundraising programming events that go on at Bauer House.  The Denius pavilion out back puts on educational content for students/grad students almost weekly.  It's no different than the UT System building downtown being exempted from property taxes.  Where absolutely zero educational content takes place.  At least Bauer House engages with students. 

I do see the Pastor homestead being an extension of the church, so I have no issue with a modest home receiving a tax break if it's within reason.  But as sited above, it can get abused faster than a rosy-cheeked Irish boy at first communion.  My wife's Catholic Church, there is a new rectory home for one priest and one visiting clergy.  The house is about 3-4k square feet, sits on a few acres, and given the part of town---would easily be worth a $3mm in the open market.  But it's on church property and was built with private funds.  If it was unattached, I think it would get a lot more criticism for its size and tax exemption. 

The missed out property values of priestly homes is like #137 on my list of issues with organized religion and the Catholic Church/Baptist Churches of Texas.  

IF we wanna get serious about missed-out revenue in Austin, we can start with the insane amount of land dedicated in Central Austin to State of Texas buildings.  And then Camp Mabry.  Oh yeah, I forget...citizens need to be near all those "services" between 11th & 18th street.  Meanwhile, that's the only place you can park in Central Austin because nobody goes to those fucking buildings except the people who work in them.  THey could just as easily go to work past 130, or NE Austin, or anywhere else cheaper.  

There it is. There is a lot of land owned by churches. I don't think we should tax it. I also don't want to tax the land owned by the BSA, GSA, Campfire, or the Natureboy Get Back to Your Rootz Jamboree Campground. I would like to see some better assessment of the income of people like Kenneth Copeland and what counts as a priory. The Bishop gets to pay Caesar too.

But, I can remember @TwiceHorn on this. An ability to tax a church is how they seize the land from them. Little bitty isolated black church has the world change around them and if they had to pay the value of the land it would break them.

It's not perfect by a long stretch. But, I'll let Copeland slide to protect the Mt. Gilead Missionary Baptist.

 

[Assman 1830]

This hits close to home as some kinda family friends of ours just sold their $800K home to buy a $1.5M home.  He's the head pastor of his church. 

The article is behind a paywall so I can't read it, but what are the requirements to be able to claim it as church property?  Can I get ordained and start the church of ass eating and CFS and not pay anymore taxes?

Yes, user name checks out.

[DalTxHornFan 3074]

Ignoring the foolish personal attacks -- this is a great thread.  There are a lot of issues at play related to property tax exemptions.  Very similar to the wealth tax issue.  Just because your real property or other assets have increased in value on paper -- that doesn't mean that it will last forever or that you will have the liquidity to pay said tax without liquidating the asset.  Carry on.

[TwiceHorn 31034]

1 hour ago, cactusflinthead said:

There it is. There is a lot of land owned by churches. I don't think we should tax it. I also don't want to tax the land owned by the BSA, GSA, Campfire, or the Natureboy Get Back to Your Rootz Jamboree Campground. I would like to see some better assessment of the income of people like Kenneth Copeland and what counts as a priory. The Bishop gets to pay Caesar too.

But, I can remember @TwiceHorn on this. An ability to tax a church is how they seize the land from them. Little bitty isolated black church has the world change around them and if they had to pay the value of the land it would break them.

It's not perfect by a long stretch. But, I'll let Copeland slide to protect the Mt. Gilead Missionary Baptist.

 

Exactly.  Except, I am all for rigorously enforcing the conditions of tax exemption.  I seem to recall that Copeland was investigated, and not exactly exonerated, but he didn't lose the exemption.

When I see churches hosting political rallies, I am infuriated.

[South Austin 51973]

6 hours ago, Assman said:

Can I get ordained and start the church of ass eating and CFS and not pay anymore taxes?

What time do your Sunday services start? 

[DigglerontheHoof 20950]

I'm so fucking sick of organized religion grifting the rest of us.  Fuck off w/ your imaginary friends.

[South Austin 51973]

1 minute ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

Fuck off w/ your imaginary friends.

What about all your imaginary friends on Surly?

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4964]

11 hours ago, Lobo said:

Dude, c'mon.  You spend more time in the open brush or open seas than 99% of the world?  I mean, yeah---you sound like you much more outdoorsy than the average American by a mile.  but 99% of the global population?  You do realize how much of the world lives near untarnished nature and/or open seas?  I'll give you "more than 95% of America" and 75% of the global population, but c'mon man.  Let's be somewhat honest here.  I'm a sportsmen in the sense of fishing and backpacking but in 80% of the planet, I'm an annoying tourist with some REI gear and a decent penchant for the elements and freshwater angling. I've no doubt you're a responsible sportsman with preservation in your spirit.

Your heart's in the right place but "more connected to the Earth than 99 percent of the world"...we are not.  

Point of order: sportsmen are typically conservationists and not preservationists. Preservation is trying to preserve natural resources in the state that they would be in without human intervention. This can include active management to shield them from exotic invasive species, but the general idea is to leave it as natural as possible. Conservation is wise use of resources. That includes typical sporting activities like hunting and fishing and also stuff like harvesting timber and replanting it.

[cactusflinthead 27588]

2 hours ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

I'm so fucking sick of organized religion grifting the rest of us.  Fuck off w/ your imaginary friends.

That's why I included the BSA and GSA. They are sitting on land worth millions. The same sorts of rules protect them.

Anton LaVey got the same protection as Kenneth Copeland. I don't know if the Flying Spaghetti Monster has land and property to protect. But, it's certainly not limited to Christians. How much is the land that the Buddhist temple sits upon in N FW worth? 

I'd love to see some grifters get punishment, but I am not willing to do it at the cost of taxing smaller entities out of existence.

[wildcat09 29144]

"Private golf courses are a net good for the public and the environment" is quite a take.

[texasdago 7544]

Vintage picture of pioneering Austin environmentalists discussing how to properly recycle wastewater so as to protect the Barton Springs salamander...

[Guest Lobo]

Actually, Al Czervik was a noted ecologist.  He was against golf courses and cemeteries, considered them to be huge wastes of prime real estate.  

Although he was a commercial and multi-family developer, Al and his partner-Wang, were pioneers in the conservation movement within the development industry.  

[DigglerontheHoof 20950]

3 hours ago, South Austin said:

What about all your imaginary friends on Surly?

I don't get a tax break for them, that's for sure. 

[formermav43 4599]

11 hours ago, Assman said:

This hits close to home as some kinda family friends of ours just sold their $800K home to buy a $1.5M home.  He's the head pastor of his church. 

The article is behind a paywall so I can't read it, but what are the requirements to be able to claim it as church property?  Can I get ordained and start the church of ass eating and CFS and not pay anymore taxes?

Yes, user name checks out.

The church has to actually own it and provide the home as part of the compensation package. It sounds as if your friend owns the home himself, at least based on the way you put it, in which case he'd pay property taxes just like everyone else.

Churches do it both ways these days. It used to be much more common for them to provide parsonages. In the last couple of decades in particular, they have started selling those off and are just paying more in salary so the minister can own his own home and they can get out of the landlord business.

Edited December 16, 2021 by formermav43

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4964]

I believe they can provide a housing stipend in lieu of a parsonage that is tax free. I could be wrong.

[formermav43 4599]

7 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

I believe they can provide a housing stipend in lieu of a parsonage that is tax free. I could be wrong.

That’s semi-correct. Even with the housing allowance, they still have to pay property taxes if the buy a home. The housing allowance is supposed to be accountable too, reflecting either what was actually spent on housing or else the fair market rental value (so you can’t just declare your whole salary as a “housing allowance” in other words.) And even then, that money is not subject to income tax, but it’s still taxed for social security.

[hullabelew 3698]

The Mormon church has been buying up farm and ranch land for a long time.  I think they are the largest single land owner in Florida (timber production in the panhandle along with citrus in central FLA).  They now own several ranches in Texas, completely destroying the tax rolls in a least one county in Texas.  They own thousands of acres of farm land throughout the midwest.

And they made a serious run at the Waggoner a few years ago.  If that had happened, it could have seriously hindered 6 counties.   I know they are supposed to pay taxes on farming and undeveloped land but amazingly, the ranch they bought near Chillicothe appears to now be classified as "for religious, educational or charitable purposes."  Funny how that works. 

 

 

[Fudge Nuggets 19109]

On 12/15/2021 at 10:37 AM, Lobo said:

There is an insane amount of educational and fundraising programming events that go on at Bauer House.  The Denius pavilion out back puts on educational content for students/grad students almost weekly.  It's no different than the UT System building downtown being exempted from property taxes.  Where absolutely zero educational content takes place.  At least Bauer House engages with students. 

I do see the Pastor homestead being an extension of the church, so I have no issue with a modest home receiving a tax break if it's within reason.  But as sited above, it can get abused faster than a rosy-cheeked Irish boy at first communion.  My wife's Catholic Church, there is a new rectory home for one priest and one visiting clergy.  The house is about 3-4k square feet, sits on a few acres, and given the part of town---would easily be worth a $3mm in the open market.  But it's on church property and was built with private funds.  If it was unattached, I think it would get a lot more criticism for its size and tax exemption. 

The missed out property values of priestly homes is like #137 on my list of issues with organized religion and the Catholic Church/Baptist Churches of Texas.  

IF we wanna get serious about missed-out revenue in Austin, we can start with the insane amount of land dedicated in Central Austin to State of Texas buildings.  And then Camp Mabry.  Oh yeah, I forget...citizens need to be near all those "services" between 11th & 18th street.  Meanwhile, that's the only place you can park in Central Austin because nobody goes to those fucking buildings except the people who work in them.  THey could just as easily go to work past 130, or NE Austin, or anywhere else cheaper.  

I imagine a lot of us would be ok with pulling the exemptions on everything. 

[TXSG8R 3325]

I wish the state would revisit the disabled vet tax exemption for those under 100%. VA loans go up to a million dollars now, but the max exemption at 99% is $12k from the total home value. It hasn’t scaled in relation to the loan values and the ratio is getting absurd. 

[40acredropout 2901]

Was trying to put numbers to the property tax revenue lost downtown to state owned property.

I back-of-the-napkinned just the area between Trinity and Lavaca & 15th and MLK. 

Using some swag assumptions (wasn't going to measure out loss of land to thoroughfares / capitol view corridor, etc) but I'm getting to ~half a billion dollars of property taxes that could be collected if that was redeveloped up to allowable density (15 FAR).

 

 

I don't know if I'm looking in right place or interpreting correctly, but I believe this (https://www.traviscountytx.gov/open-data-portal/property-tax-current-year) tells me the total amount of property taxes collected per year is ~$5.37B.   So for scale, my math above arrives at potential tax revenues that would equate to 8.5% of what is currently being collected by the county.  And that's just one 4x5 block area.  Many other examples of valuable downtown land owned/used by public entities.  

[South Austin 51973]

All of you advocating pulling the religious exemptions are going to be upset on Christmas morning when you find out Santa passed over your house.

[40acredropout 2901]

3 hours ago, hullabelew said:

The Mormon church has been buying up farm and ranch land for a long time.  I think they are the largest single land owner in Florida (timber production in the panhandle along with citrus in central FLA).  They now own several ranches in Texas, completely destroying the tax rolls in a least one county in Texas.  They own thousands of acres of farm land throughout the midwest.

And they made a serious run at the Waggoner a few years ago.  If that had happened, it could have seriously hindered 6 counties.   I know they are supposed to pay taxes on farming and undeveloped land but amazingly, the ranch they bought near Chillicothe appears to now be classified as "for religious, educational or charitable purposes."  Funny how that works. 

 

 

A google search seems to confirm this.  Crazy fact.

[Guest Lobo]

What possible religious educational opportunity do they get to justify away not paying property taxes?  It's not like they need open areas for outdoor recreation...they're in Utah, the most stunningly beautiful state in the Continental United States.  Timber & Citrus?  

Are they just showing young adults how to apply sticky citrus juice to that stiff panhandle wood?  

Ah, now I get what "Mormon Sooaking" is.  Message received.  Got it.  

Edited December 16, 2021 by Lobo

[Assman 1830]

12 hours ago, formermav43 said:

The church has to actually own it and provide the home as part of the compensation package. It sounds as if your friend owns the home himself, at least based on the way you put it, in which case he'd pay property taxes just like everyone else.

Churches do it both ways these days. It used to be much more common for them to provide parsonages. In the last couple of decades in particular, they have started selling those off and are just paying more in salary so the minister can own his own home and they can get out of the landlord business.

He is the head pastor and founder of the church.  I can guarantee the house is "church property".

[formermav43 4599]

7 minutes ago, Assman said:

He is the head pastor and founder of the church.  I can guarantee the house is "church property".

Then yeah, you’re probably right (and that’s pretty messed up).

[cactusflinthead 27588]

On 12/15/2021 at 9:25 PM, Johnny Sack said:

You post a lot of shit about me that isn’t true.  Keep on though.  

At the risk of going fully off track I would sure like to see your data on golf courses. Particularly about the recycled water. Understand also that I might actually be an ally in this area

 But, if you're gonna make big claims you gotta back it up.

Tell me where you heard this and why I should believe it.

[cactusflinthead 27588]

5 hours ago, Lobo said:

What possible religious educational opportunity do they get to justify away not paying property taxes?  It's not like they need open areas for outdoor recreation...they're in Utah, the most stunningly beautiful state in the Continental United States.  Timber & Citrus?  

Are they just showing young adults how to apply sticky citrus juice to that stiff panhandle wood?  

Ah, now I get what "Mormon Sooaking" is.  Message received.  Got it.  

Ok it ain't right to buy up timber land and call it educational and religious. 

 

[DalTxHornFan 3074]

2 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

Ok it ain't right to buy up timber land and call it educational and religious. 

 

True enough, but with ag-exemption valuation on property like that, there isn't a whole lot of difference in the overall tax bill.

[cactusflinthead 27588]

23 minutes ago, DalTxHornFan said:

True enough, but with ag-exemption valuation on property like that, there isn't a whole lot of difference in the overall tax bill.

So they pay something?

Ag exemptions still get a bill right? If it's religious or non-profit =zero.

How much does Fossil Rim pay? Or Sid Richardson Ranch?

The question stands. Does the LDS pay a dime in tax for owning timber in FLA?

@hullabelew added on. If they had the Waggonner what then?

[DalTxHornFan 3074]

6 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

So they pay something?

Ag exemptions still get a bill right? If it's religious or non-profit =zero.

How much does Fossil Rim pay? Or Sid Richardson Ranch?

The question stands. Does the LDS pay a dime in tax for owning timber in FLA?

@hullabelew added on. If they had the Waggonner what then?

Understood and I agree with your point.  Ag value of grazing land is miniscule.  The ag value of some of my family's East Texas land with timber on it is nowhere near what it is worth.  Going on memory, the property tax on the timberland is around $3 per acre.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13387]

On 12/15/2021 at 9:55 PM, cactusflinthead said:

There it is. There is a lot of land owned by churches. I don't think we should tax it. I also don't want to tax the land owned by the BSA, GSA, Campfire, or the Natureboy Get Back to Your Rootz Jamboree Campground. I would like to see some better assessment of the income of people like Kenneth Copeland and what counts as a priory. The Bishop gets to pay Caesar too.

But, I can remember @TwiceHorn on this. An ability to tax a church is how they seize the land from them. Little bitty isolated black church has the world change around them and if they had to pay the value of the land it would break them.

It's not perfect by a long stretch. But, I'll let Copeland slide to protect the Mt. Gilead Missionary Baptist.

 

I hear you but it doesn’t have to be all or nothing on the exemption for pastor homes. Exemptions can be flat dollar amount. Say 200k. Or be generous and let it be 500k. Anything over that is taxed like any other residence.