Formula 1 2022

[VABuckeye 2472]

Damn, did I love The Big Red Machine when I was a kid.  I still have nightmares about Brooks Robinson in the 1970 World Series.  I'm not sure one single player has played so well in a series since and maybe before.  Fielded like he had 8 arms and hit .429.  

Then I moved to NE Ohio and switched to the Indians.  What a dumbass.

 

[Levi 2592]

2 hours ago, wood said:

Hey, that's Sparky Anderson in your avatar, right? Absolute legend.

Yessir! 

[52-80 19241]

4 hours ago, NoName said:

basically every time it has happened, a penalty has been given. basically every time a penalty is given it is for 5 seconds.

i dont know about other times something like that happened, but this time was a clear racing incident:

1. russell beat perez into the braking zone

2. russell initiated his turn a hair before perez did -- he had steering lock when their front axles were matched

3. russell clipped the apex as he should -- right wheel actually bounced on the curb

4. russell did not loosen the steering wheel at all after that point -- in fact he tightened  the same steering angle a few degrees just before they touched

russell did not do a single thing that contributed to the incident.

 

5. perez did not beat russell to the turn, or at the start of the turn, and therefore not "entitled" to the turn.

6. perez maintained faster speed through the turn, allowing him to inch ahead while russell was literally still on the curb

perez accelerated through/out of the turn, which is when the collision happened.  it was unavoidable for russell: if he slowed down, it would have only hastened the collision.  he did not loosen up his steering that he otherwise could have tightened.

 

it was as close to a text book racing incident as it gets, without malice by either driver.  the frame by frame tells the story

 

 

 

 

 

[wood 11260]

2 hours ago, VABuckeye said:

Damn, did I love The Big Red Machine when I was a kid.  I still have nightmares about Brooks Robinson in the 1970 World Series.  I'm not sure one single player has played so well in a series since and maybe before.  Fielded like he had 8 arms and hit .429.  

Then I moved to NE Ohio and switched to the Indians.  What a dumbass.

Yep. Me too. They were fairly close to where I was living in Tennessee. Davey Concepcion with his bounce throws from SS. Johnny Bench, Pete Rose, etc. They were bigger than life. :baseballtalknotgoingaway:

[Anton Chigurh 3319]

i dont know about other times something like that happened, but this time was a clear racing incident:
1. russell beat perez into the braking zone
2. russell initiated his turn a hair before perez did -- he had steering lock when their front axles were matched
3. russell clipped the apex as he should -- right wheel actually bounced on the curb
4. russell did not loosen the steering wheel at all after that point -- in fact he tightened  the same steering angle a few degrees just before they touched
russell did not do a single thing that contributed to the incident.
 
5. perez did not beat russell to the turn, or at the start of the turn, and therefore not "entitled" to the turn.
6. perez maintained faster speed through the turn, allowing him to inch ahead while russell was literally still on the curb
perez accelerated through/out of the turn, which is when the collision happened.  it was unavoidable for russell: if he slowed down, it would have only hastened the collision.  he did not loosen up his steering that he otherwise could have tightened.
 
it was as close to a text book racing incident as it gets, without malice by either driver.  the frame by frame tells the story
 
 
 
 
 

Russel be like:

[VABuckeye 2472]

1 hour ago, wood said:

Yep. Me too. They were fairly close to where I was living in Tennessee. Davey Concepcion with his bounce throws from SS. Johnny Bench, Pete Rose, etc. They were bigger than life. :baseballtalknotgoingaway:

George Foster, Cesar Geronimo, Joe Morgan, Tony Perez, Ken Griffey.  What a team. 

[wood 11260]

2 hours ago, VABuckeye said:

George Foster, Cesar Geronimo, Joe Morgan, Tony Perez, Ken Griffey.  What a team. 

Yep. All of 'em. I was at an Astros - Reds game in the Dome once & saw George hit an absolute laser to dead center. First thing it hit was the big equipment door way past the CF wall in the opening, probably 440+ feet away ... and I swear to God that ball was never more than 20-25 feet off the ground.

Anyway ... here's a thing:

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by wood

[flatdawgs 1285]

1 hour ago, wood said:

 

 

I really like the Portimão circuit. Was just there a couple of weeks ago but there wasn't anything going on. Would have enjoyed seeing that.

[52-80 19241]

10 hours ago, VABuckeye said:

George Foster, Cesar Geronimo, Joe Morgan, Tony Perez, Ken Griffey.  What a team. 

 

[Prepuce of Doom 21103]

18 hours ago, Burt Macklin said:

Yep. I think Zak’s statements and all the rumors thrown around was a way to try to push Danny to decline, but he was never going to do that. It definitely seems like McLaren is trying to line up all the brightest IndyCar stars to give one of them a chance in 2024. I don’t follow IndyCar super closely, but I’ve been really impressed with Palou every time I see him. I think he might be the best driver on the grid. Herta shows potential but seems way too inconsistent right now. 

Don’t forget O'Ward too - that kid is the real deal. 

[wood 11260]

2 hours ago, Prepuce of Doom said:

Don’t forget O'Ward too - that kid is the real deal. 

Yeah imho Pato and Palou are probably better than Herta. Herta's just not very consistent imho.

Edited July 14, 2022 by wood

[Guest]

17 hours ago, 52-80 said:

i dont know about other times something like that happened, but this time was a clear racing incident:

1. russell beat perez into the braking zone

2. russell initiated his turn a hair before perez did -- he had steering lock when their front axles were matched

3. russell clipped the apex as he should -- right wheel actually bounced on the curb

4. russell did not loosen the steering wheel at all after that point -- in fact he tightened  the same steering angle a few degrees just before they touched

russell did not do a single thing that contributed to the incident.

 

5. perez did not beat russell to the turn, or at the start of the turn, and therefore not "entitled" to the turn.

6. perez maintained faster speed through the turn, allowing him to inch ahead while russell was literally still on the curb

perez accelerated through/out of the turn, which is when the collision happened.  it was unavoidable for russell: if he slowed down, it would have only hastened the collision.  he did not loosen up his steering that he otherwise could have tightened.

 

it was as close to a text book racing incident as it gets, without malice by either driver.  the frame by frame tells the story

 

 

 

 

 

Looks like Russell could have pulled slightly tighter and Perez could have given slightly more room. I'd put it 60/40 on Russell if I HAD to assign blame. But I agree -- no one is trying to wreck anyone. I'd be fine with no penalty there.

[utee94 15861]

I felt like it should have been called a racing incident.  A really unfortunate one, for sure.  But I think assigning blame to either sends the wrong message about being willing to race in the corners.

 

 

[Prepuce of Doom 21103]

42 minutes ago, wood said:

Yeah imho Pato and Palou are probably better than Herta. Herta's just not very consistent imho.

I think Herta's ceiling is every bit equal to the other two (not going to say it's higher, but I wouldn't argue with anyone about it), but his floor is far lower. 

Palou is definitely the most consistent of the three (and smallest delta between ceiling and floor), but also seems to have the most reliable equipment and team. 

[Burt Macklin 19050]

4 hours ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Looks like Russell could have pulled slightly tighter and Perez could have given slightly more room. I'd put it 60/40 on Russell if I HAD to assign blame. But I agree -- no one is trying to wreck anyone. I'd be fine with no penalty there.

I think it leans more towards Perez simply because he had a ton of room on the outside he could’ve used, whereas Russell hugged the apex about as tight as possible and had no way to adjust when Perez cut in so hard. When you consider the cars we’re on full fuel and Perez knew he had already forced Russell to take a tight inside line, he didn’t leave a reasonable amount of space for Russell to make the corner. 
 

If you look at the Vettel-Gasly incidents Vettel stayed way wider, which is why it was on obvious penalty on Gasly. If Perez took Vettel’s line, he would’ve been on the podium that race. 

[Anton Chigurh 3319]

Red Bull even warned Checo to try not to overtake there on lap one, apparently.

[faps 807]

Must be so awesome to get that call from McLaren asking you to test their F1 car.

Hopping back into your Indycar after... Similar feeling to me driving my F150 after driving the M2C. I know these guys are pros, but I wonder if there is an adjustment period. Trying to forget the grip, power, and braking the F1 car had.

[NoName 16397]

came across this article in a random spot but this 2019 article had an interesting breakdown of most 1 sided teammate battles through 2019 at least...Fernando is on there a lot. Didn't realize he dominated Massa that much (before my time)

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2019/11/22/the-f1metrics-top-100/

The most one-sided head-to-head scores in counting races between teammates. For inclusion, teammates must have a total tally of at least 15 counting races together (approximately one modern grand prix season).

 

[wood 11260]

5 hours ago, faps said:

Must be so awesome to get that call from McLaren asking you to test their F1 car.

Hopping back into your Indycar after... Similar feeling to me driving my F150 after driving the M2C. I know these guys are pros, but I wonder if there is an adjustment period. Trying to forget the grip, power, and braking the F1 car had.

Yep, & it's gotta be hard to adjust getting into an F1 car for the first time and trying to be quick. One thing I've heard a few times from some drivers is that it's hard to train their brain to get the best performance from an F1 car. The brain thinks you're on the limit when you aren't and that the car can't brake that late, accelerate that early, take that turn at that speed, etc ... but it can. They say the limits are so different that it's disorienting.

[wood 11260]

4 hours ago, NoName said:

came across this article in a random spot but this 2019 article had an interesting breakdown of most 1 sided teammate battles through 2019 at least...Fernando is on there a lot. Didn't realize he dominated Massa that much (before my time)

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2019/11/22/the-f1metrics-top-100/

The most one-sided head-to-head scores in counting races between teammates. For inclusion, teammates must have a total tally of at least 15 counting races together (approximately one modern grand prix season).

Yep. Alonso has whooped some pretty great drivers. That list also doesn't include the streak of out-qualifying Vandoorne 25 straight times across 2017-18, Some thought SV was headed for greatness in F1. Alonso out-qualified him 36-3 across the 2 seasons, and beat him 15-5 in races they both finished, which were fairly few in those Honda years.

[Guest]

Random F1 thought that doesn't deserve a thread:

I like how you never see Brundle and Crofty in the booth. You know in football where they go to the booth and the announcers set the stage for the game for 5 minutes? "Well Jim, we're going to have to see how well that hamstring is going to hold up. He was out during warm-ups and looked good, but it could be a big story in today's game." None of that.

I guess there is the grid walk, but no announcer "yuks" during the broadcast. Here's the track, here's the tires, here's the starting grid, let's go racing.

 

[VABuckeye 2472]

And British humor.  I love British humor. 

[elfenix 34332]

On 7/15/2022 at 10:04 AM, faps said:

Must be so awesome to get that call from McLaren asking you to test their F1 car.

Hopping back into your Indycar after... Similar feeling to me driving my F150 after driving the M2C. I know these guys are pros, but I wonder if there is an adjustment period. Trying to forget the grip, power, and braking the F1 car had.

top of the timing this morning in indycar so doesn't seem like much hangover. 

edit: now on the pole

Edited July 16, 2022 by elfenix

[Guest]

Anyone complaining about the TV production should go back and watch some older races. Just watch 2011 Canada based on the recs in a Reddit thread. Woof, the production is tough.

The graphics are really rough. For instance, the timing screens showed just a handful of drivers at a time and scrolled through them all, instead of having a bar on the left-hand side of the screen. There's so much more information displayed on today's races that's easily digestible. And just the camera work today is much better than back then. I think the actual cameras themselves help, but the position and number of the cameras also seem much better today. Finally, I love Martin Brundle as color commentary. There, he was the lead announcer and it was... not good. 

[RPM 26352]

On 7/13/2022 at 3:27 PM, VABuckeye said:

Damn, did I love The Big Red Machine when I was a kid.  I still have nightmares about Brooks Robinson in the 1970 World Series.  I'm not sure one single player has played so well in a series since and maybe before.  Fielded like he had 8 arms and hit .429.  

Then I moved to NE Ohio and switched to the Indians.  What a dumbass.

 

Before we got the Rangers, I loved The Big Red Machine with Sparky at the helm of The Great Eight when I was a kid. They were my team Johnny Bench was my hero and the reason I played catcher. Didn't matter he was from Oklahoma or got suckered for the fake walk. The guy was Mr. Baseball.

Never liked Pete Rose.

Edited July 17, 2022 by RPM

[ConferenceRoom 6146]

Seven years since Jules passed away. What could have been.

[Guest]

For newer fans, why did Vettel leave Red Bull for Ferrari after he won 4 championships there?

[wood 11260]

15 hours ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Anyone complaining about the TV production should go back and watch some older races. Just watch 2011 Canada based on the recs in a Reddit thread. Woof, the production is tough.

The graphics are really rough. For instance, the timing screens showed just a handful of drivers at a time and scrolled through them all, instead of having a bar on the left-hand side of the screen. There's so much more information displayed on today's races that's easily digestible. And just the camera work today is much better than back then. I think the actual cameras themselves help, but the position and number of the cameras also seem much better today. Finally, I love Martin Brundle as color commentary. There, he was the lead announcer and it was... not good. 

Yeah sometimes I read older US F1 fans complaining about the Sky coverage, the Lewis love-fest, Crofty's yelling, etc, and saying they want the three amigos back. OK, I guess. I loved Hobbs and Matchett, but Varsha, Windsor, & Buxton are as big Lewis fans as anyone, and anyone complaining about Crofty screaming needs to go back and listen to Diffey. Holy shit. Even with everything we don't like about the Sky broadcast, even with Karun, it's miles better than the old US broadcasts. The disparity is so huge that it's silly to even try to compare them. And of course, Fuck NBC.

Edited July 17, 2022 by wood

[ConferenceRoom 6146]

For newer fans, why did Vettel leave Red Bull for Ferrari after he won 4 championships there?

He was always going to Ferrari. Used to be that’s what you did when you had success at another team, even championships. Prost, Schumacher, Alonso (although he had a disaster stint at McLaren first). The Schumi parallel, RB “struggling” out of the gates in the hybrid era, and an ascendant Ricciardo all played a part.

Mark Webber famously said that Seb was going to win championships at RB, have a go in the red cars, and retire early. I was always surprised he kept going after leaving Ferrari.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, ConferenceRoom said:

He was always going to Ferrari. Used to be that’s what you did when you had success at another team, even championships. Prost, Schumacher, Alonso (although he had a disaster stint at McLaren first). The Schumi parallel, RB “struggling” out of the gates in the hybrid era, and an ascendant Ricciardo all played a part.

Mark Webber famously said that Seb was going to win championships at RB, have a go in the red cars, and retire early. I was always surprised he kept going after leaving Ferrari.

So sorta like big-name players signing with the Yankees?

Do Horner and Seb get on? Seems like the sort of guy that would not be very happy with Seb for a long time after that move.

Edited July 17, 2022 by FirstTimeCaller

[wood 11260]

8 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

For newer fans, why did Vettel leave Red Bull for Ferrari after he won 4 championships there?

There were lots of things. Poor 2014 Renault PU performance, The lure of Maranello and the chance to replicate Schumi's heroics, and I guess back in 2014 he could see how big the gap was to Merc & knew that RBR weren't going to beat them anytime soon, so why not. IIRC, Daniel said he thought Seb also wanted a new challenge.

[ConferenceRoom 6146]

Yeah, that’s a fair analogy if you had to describe it to someone on the outside looking in. I think driving for Ferrari is way more important than playing for the Yankees. Ferrari’s pedigree and DNA are imprinted onto Motorsport then, now, and forever. They’re the world’s most famous team. I believe every driver that could would drive for them for free.

[wood 11260]

16 minutes ago, ConferenceRoom said:

He was always going to Ferrari. Used to be that’s what you did when you had success at another team, even championships. Prost, Schumacher, Alonso (although he had a disaster stint at McLaren first). The Schumi parallel, RB “struggling” out of the gates in the hybrid era, and an ascendant Ricciardo all played a part.

Mark Webber famously said that Seb was going to win championships at RB, have a go in the red cars, and retire early. I was always surprised he kept going after leaving Ferrari.

The disaster at McLaren was Ron's poor management of Lewis & Fernando. Even after all the craziness and backstabbing from each of them, both Fernando and Lewis lost that WDC by one point to Kimi.

Re: Staying at Ferrari, yep, sitting in those red cars is considered a huge honor for most drivers, but a stint at Ferrari tends to work out poorly for more drivers than not. Just ask Alonso. He could see the writing on the wall after 2010 & 2012. He was in it for championships, not just running in the lead pack. He knew Ferrari wasn't gonna truly be in the fight for several more years, so he left to roll the dice at McLaren. Of course that didn't work out well, but he got as many WDCs there as he would have at Ferrari and as many as Seb got at Ferrari. He's buddies with Webber, and he also predicted during his second McLaren stint that Seb would leave Ferrari with no titles.

Edited July 17, 2022 by wood

[ConferenceRoom 6146]

Oh, yeah, for all the good Ron did for McLaren he almost hurt it just as much.

[wood 11260]

3 minutes ago, ConferenceRoom said:

Oh, yeah, for all the good Ron did for McLaren he almost hurt it just as much.

Yeah it's funny, because I actually admire Ron and much of what he did for McLaren and for F1 in general, but that year was an absolute mess for McLaren, and he has to shoulder that. They should have won everything in a cake walk in 2007, and won nothing.

Edited July 17, 2022 by wood

[Burt Macklin 19050]

4 hours ago, wood said:

but he got as many WDCs there as he would have at Ferrari and as many as Seb got at Ferrari.

Ehhhh. You Fernando in the 17 and 18 Ferraris and I think he could win at least one WDC. 

[wood 11260]

2 hours ago, Burt Macklin said:

Ehhhh. You Fernando in the 17 and 18 Ferraris and I think he could win at least one WDC. 

Maybe. Probably.

The problem with that is that 2017 & '18 would have been his 8th and 9th years in the team. I just don't see any elite driver staying that long without a championship-capable car, not even at Ferrari.

[Guest]

RE: Sausage curbs:
 

 

[kevwun 15879]

Holy shit that wreck in Macau.  The car took off like a missile in to the barrier.

[NoName 16397]

 

[ConferenceRoom 6146]

Ha, I had forgotten about ol' Wehrlein. 

[Guest]

So how many cars does a team have? Say a driver has an awful wreck in qualifying -- destroys the car. Is there a backup ready to slot in for the race? Are there just the pieces available and a team has to assemble them altogether? How many chassis will a driver use over the course of a year?

[ConferenceRoom 6146]

Spare cars were banned in 2003. The teams bring spare parts for most (all?) contingencies but obviously there are limited replacements that can be made without being penalized. Chassis are so strong these days that I can't imagine they use more than one or maybe two in the event of a huge crash. I've pulled most of this information out of my ass, so someone will be along shortly to correct the record. I think that's the gist of it, though. 

[ConferenceRoom 6146]

Another blocked video that's worth watching on YouTube. DC got the spare McLaren, Mika retired on the re-start, DC ruins Schumacher's race, and Damon Hill wins in a Jordan. Just your average race. 

[Dutch 4479]

Full race highlights:

"Oh, this is terrible! This- oh this is quite appalling!"

"And let us not forget in these appalling conditions, David Couthar-OH GOD!"

Any chance the 1998 carnage factored into the decision-making process regarding last year's non-race @ Spa?

[ConferenceRoom 6146]

"Oh God!" might be my favorite Murray call. That or Hill coming over the line in Suzuka. What a treasure. 

[ChickenSandwich 9852]

Mercedes is supposed to be bringing an upgrade for their power unit soon. 
 

Question: Are these upgrades immediately available to customer teams?

Will Mercedes take penalties for the upgrade like the would for replacing a broken engine or electrical system component?

[TonyTexas 10525]

It’s hot as balls in France this week. It’s not going to be pleasant at or on the track. 

[Anton Chigurh 3319]

Mercedes is supposed to be bringing an upgrade for their power unit soon. 
 
Question: Are these upgrades immediately available to customer teams?
Will Mercedes take penalties for the upgrade like the would for replacing a broken engine or electrical system component?

1) Yes, if the teams wish to take it (they are on different PU schedules sometimes, though). Remember though that other teams may not be able to run the PU to the same standard depending on individual cooling capacity, layout, etc.

2) No, they are still currently on their second components, and penalties start after your third.

Going back to 1, look here at how McLaren has their intercoolers setup. Instead of using an air-to-water heat exchanger right at the exit of the compressor, like the rest of the Merc teams, they use twin air-to-air intercoolers in the sidepods (see the gold and black pipes). Seems weird that they would do this, and it may mean that they can’t run the engine the same. Or maybe they can but it makes less peak power. We don’t really know, but it seems less efficient.



Something like this (not my drawing, though it is wonderful):

[G650 14277]

5 minutes ago, Anton Chigurh said:

1) Yes, if the teams wish to take it (they are on different PU schedules sometimes, though). Remember though that other teams may not be able to run the PU to the same standard depending on individual cooling capacity, layout, etc.

2) No, they are still currently on their second components, and penalties start after your third.

Going back to 1, look here at how McLaren has their intercoolers setup. Instead of using an air-to-water heat exchanger right at the exit of the compressor, like the rest of the Merc teams, they use twin air-to-air intercoolers in the sidepods (see the gold and black pipes). Seems weird that they would do this, and it may mean that they can’t run the engine the same. Or maybe they can but it makes less peak power. We don’t really know, but it seems less efficient.



Something like this (not my drawing, though it is wonderful):

Did Thujone draw that