Formula 1 2022

[NoName 16286]

just when you think the Alonso story can't possibly get more ridiculous

in Saward a reasonable voice?

it ties in to this article too? https://www.racefans.net/2022/10/24/alpine-launch-protest-to-overturn-alonsos-united-states-gp-penalty/

Quote

Alpine also questioned the penalty on other points, but did not indicate these will form part of their protest. They noted the FIA chose not to use the black-and-orange flag to force Alonso to pit and said the FIA technical delegate Jo Bauer determined the car was legal after the race.

 

[utee94 15744]

I think they should not only reverse the penalty but just give Fred 1st place.

[ConferenceRoom 6123]

5 minutes ago, utee94 said:

I think they should not only reverse the penalty but just give Fred 1st place.

He can be P2 behind Lando, who passed him fair and square. 

[wood 11121]

Jacques Villeneuve (whose dad Gilles was killed in a similar incident at Zolder in 1982), Dario Franchitti and Damon Hill also spoke out on this collision, calling for stronger action to get high-speed driver standards under control. . Villeneuve is so upset by the move that he's calling for a one-race ban for his fellow Canadian.
 
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formula-1/usgp-crash-alonso-stroll-franchitti-28316544

Quote

"These late changes of direction on the straight are going to kill someone," the Scot wrote on social media. "FIA, time to sort this behaviour out once and for all. It has bled down to the junior formula too."
 
Damon Hill, 1996 F1 champion, agreed that Stroll's late move to the left to prevent his future team-mate from passing was dangerous. "Another close call there for the boys. Bit of a naughty late jink I think from Stroll there", he wrote.

[wood 11121]

3 hours ago, utee94 said:

I think they should not only reverse the penalty but just give Fred 1st place.

Nah, P7 will do. That was a legendary drive to get back there from P17.

Oh, and you can add Peter Windsor to the list of people calling out Stroll's move and calling for stronger action against such moves. He's no Alonso advocate, but also thinks Stroll should be punished more severely than a "slap on the wrist", that Alonso got a far worse penalty than Stroll or Russell got, and that Alonso was Driver of the Day and his penalty was way too harsh.  He also makes a great point about KMag blasting through the scene as if nothing was happening. Windsor also points out the similarity to Zolder 1982.Of course, Jacques' dad Gilles was killed in that incident, so Jacques knows as well as anyone about the consequnces of such a move.

And Dario knows a little bit about the dangers of being moved into at high speeds as well. Remember Houston? I was there. I 'member.

 

[wood 11121]

Also, Re: Alonso's disproportionate penalty, the penalties as they are now are simply nonsensical, and the penalties in this race illustrated that point very clearly.

- Russell causes a collision, taking out the polesitter on L1T1 ... 5 seconds

- Gasly dawdles a little behind the SC for a few seconds ... 5 seconds

- Perez and Russell drive with broken wings for most of the race ... no penalty

- Albon holds position after overtaking off the track ... 5 seconds + 1 point on SL (worse penalty than Russell's)

- Stroll causes a very dangerous collision, taking out Alonso ... 3 grid positions in Mexico + 2 SL points 

- Latifi causes a collision ... 5 grid positions in Mexico + 2 SL points (worse penalty than Russel's or Stroll's)

- Alonso loses the mirror damaged by Stroll's late move ... 30 seconds and loss of all points for the race, when the protest was filed late, when there was no warning or black & orange flag given, and when Bauer had said post-race that the car was legal. (worse penalty than Russel's or any of the others)

It's just bizarre.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by wood

[blacklab 11843]

How many of those were the local stewards and how many were F1?

[Mittens 8148]

 

[wood 11121]

52 minutes ago, blacklab said:

How many of those were the local stewards and how many were F1?

I would assume they're all from the stewards, but I've slept since the last time I looked into the penalty system, so thatmay not be right.

On a related note, I've been railing on for years that F1 needs well-trained, well-compensated, well-evaluated traveling Stewards to bring continuity to rule enforcement. They could still have a local steward or two at every race. They just wouldn't have to rely solely on them. Obviously, they also need a coherent, proportionate penalty system.

Oh, and now Saward is saying that Alpine were even told during the race that the mirror was OK. 

Edited October 26, 2022 by wood

[ConferenceRoom 6123]

49 minutes ago, blacklab said:

How many of those were the local stewards and how many were F1?

The stewards are nominated by and adjudicate on behalf of the FIA (F1). 

[Chewbacca 7729]

1 hour ago, wood said:

Also, Re: Alonso's disproportionate penalty, the penalties as they are now are simply nonsensical, and the penalties in this race illustrated that point very clearly.

- Russell causes a collision, taking out the polesitter on L1T1 ... 5 seconds

- Gasly dawdles a little behind the SC for a few seconds ... 5 seconds

- Perez and Russell drive with broken wings for most of the race ... no penalty

- Albon holds position after overtaking off the track ... 5 seconds + 1 point on SL (worse penalty than Russell's)

- Stroll causes a very dangerous collision, taking out Alonso ... 3 grid positions in Mexico + 2 SL points 

- Latifi causes a collision ... 5 grid positions in Mexico + 2 SL points (worse penalty than Russel's or Stroll's)

- Alonso loses the mirror damaged by Stroll's late move ... 30 seconds and loss of all points for the race, when the protest was filed late, when there was no warning or black & orange flag given, and when Bauer had said post-race that the car was legal. (worse penalty than Russel's or any of the others)

It's just bizarre.

 

 

And while I do not agree with the punishment at all, I can understand Haas' protest.  KMag has gotten black & orange flags three times this year and then they let others go with damage.  I think they're just looking for some consistency.  The penalty against Alonso almost seems like a makeup call for Haas.  As has been said many times in this thread, getting professional stewards would help with this.  Too sensical for the FIA, though.

[ConferenceRoom 6123]

[wood 11121]

25 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

And while I do not agree with the punishment at all, I can understand Haas' protest.  KMag has gotten black & orange flags three times this year and then they let others go with damage.  I think they're just looking for some consistency.  The penalty against Alonso almost seems like a makeup call for Haas.  As has been said many times in this thread, getting professional stewards would help with this.  Too sensical for the FIA, though.

Right. The RD and the stewards knew about the mirror, as Haas brought it up to them twice during the race. Saward says they actually even told Alpine during the race that it was ok to continue. Had they told Alonso to come in when the mirror was still attached, there's a decent chance they could have slapped some tape on it NASCAR-style and finished in the points. They were never given that opportunity, and then had everything taken away post-race. Checo, as much as I like him, should have had a penalty too if we're going to be this strict with loose parts. Russell had a broken wing as well.

Edited October 26, 2022 by wood

[Chewbacca 7729]

19 minutes ago, wood said:

Right. The RD and the stewards knew about the mirror, as Haas brought it up to them twice during the race. Saward says they actually even told Alpine during the race that it was ok to continue. Had they told Alonso to come in when the mirror was still attached, there's a decent chance they could have slapped some tape on it NASCAR-style and finished in the points. They were never given that opportunity, and then had everything taken away post-race. Checo, as much as I like him, should have had a penalty too if we're going to be this strict with loose parts. Russell had a broken wing as well.

Agree with all of this.

[Burt Macklin 18989]

4 hours ago, wood said:

Right. The RD and the stewards knew about the mirror, as Haas brought it up to them twice during the race. Saward says they actually even told Alpine during the race that it was ok to continue. Had they told Alonso to come in when the mirror was still attached, there's a decent chance they could have slapped some tape on it NASCAR-style and finished in the points. They were never given that opportunity, and then had everything taken away post-race. Checo, as much as I like him, should have had a penalty too if we're going to be this strict with loose parts. Russell had a broken wing as well.

Counterpoint: Fuck Alpine. 

[blacklab 11843]

Yeah fuck them

and is alpine not alpeen 

[wood 11121]

1 hour ago, Burt Macklin said:

Counterpoint: Fuck Alpine. 

 

48 minutes ago, blacklab said:

Yeah fuck them

and is alpine not alpeen 

I concur with fuck Alpine. It's more about Alonso for me, and the disproportionate penalties.

[utee94 15744]

Al Pyne sucks but Fred's the best.

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

This was fun. Sebastian’s last lap at COTA

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by ChickenSandwich

[deft 6791]

This was fun. Sebastian’s last lap at COTA
 

Why would you want to see that when you could see Tim Apple going crazy with the flag instead?!

[wood 11121]

Vettel's Mexican GP helmet...

[wood 11121]

 

[wood 11121]

 

[wood 11121]

Unreal. Checo Perez drives a full lap of AHR on a sim ... with his eyes closed.

https://streamable.com/4rb7np

[Clackles 276]

4 hours ago, wood said:

Unreal. Checo Perez drives a full lap of AHR on a sim ... with his eyes closed.

https://streamable.com/4rb7np

I don’t think that’s what’s happening there.  Still pretty impressive though.

[Chewbacca 7729]

 

What a clusterfuck.

[Goofyboy 3194]

Red Bull did break the cost cap by $2.2 million. $7 million fine and only 10% wind tunnel reduction. That’s it. That’s all they get for cheating. Why even have a cost cap? FIA continues to suck.

Gotta cheat to win, I guess.

[utee94 15744]

8 hours ago, wood said:

 

Until the appeal of the appeal of the appeal overturns that.... 

Now let's have Russell's results thrown out of the race and declared a DNF, plus he also has to follow Sainz around by no fewer than 10 steps for the remainder of the season whilst carrying his suitcases and gear.

And just kick Stroll out of the sport completely.

[elfenix 34169]

8 hours ago, wood said:

Unreal. Checo Perez drives a full lap of AHR on a sim ... with his eyes closed.

https://streamable.com/4rb7np

i suspect that every driver can do this.  i could probably have done this with several mario kart tracks back in the day. 

[wood 11121]

4 hours ago, Clackles said:

I don’t think that’s what’s happening there.  Still pretty impressive though.

Yeah maybe he's mimicking what he'd be doing with the wheel, but without being able to see it. Kind like air guitar racing.

[wood 11121]

28 minutes ago, elfenix said:

i suspect that every driver can do this. 

I was thinking that, too. Still impressive that people can do these things imho. I could probably do pretty well with COTA or Spa, and I know my kid could do it better with multiple F1 circuits and even Le Mans.

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, Goofyboy said:

Red Bull did break the cost cap by $2.2 million. $7 million fine and only 10% wind tunnel reduction. That’s it. That’s all they get for cheating. Why even have a cost cap? FIA continues to suck.

Gotta cheat to win, I guess.

Ok Mr. Red Bull hater. What do you want to penalty to be? It seems pretty significant to me, especially reading they already have sharply reduced testing due to their position. They will have sharply less time than Ferrari or Merc.

They went over, they got hit. Still more of a public penalty than what Ferrari got in their secret agreement a couple of years ago when all the sudden they went from winning races to the mid-field.

[wood 11121]

31 minutes ago, utee94 said:

Until the appeal of the appeal of the appeal overturns that.... 

Now let's have Russell's results thrown out of the race and declared a DNF, plus he also has to follow Sainz around by no fewer than 10 steps for the remainder of the season whilst carrying his suitcases and gear.

And just kick Stroll out of the sport completely.

I think, based on the things they've been saying about the move, Jacques Villeneuve,, Damon Hill, Dario Franchitti, Peter Windsor, and others probably wouldn't mind that at all ... at least for a race or 3.

[wood 11121]

Just now, FirstTimeCaller said:

Ok Mr. Red Bull hater. What do you want to penalty to be? It seems pretty significant to me, especially reading they already have sharply reduced testing due to their position. They will have sharply less time than Ferrari or Merc.

They went over, they got hit. Still more of a public penalty than what Ferrari got in their secret agreement a couple of years ago when all the sudden they went from winning races to the mid-field.

The latest I had read was that they only exceeeded it by $200K, not the $2M originally kicked around. If haven't read anything official about it though. Was it actually $2.2M?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, wood said:

The latest I had read was that they only exceeeded it by $200K, not the $2M originally kicked around. If haven't read anything official about it though. Was it actually $2.2M?

Who knows? Could have been less due to tax credits?
 

 

[wood 11121]

1 minute ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Who knows? Could have been less due to tax credits?
 

 

Thanks. I hadn't seen that one yet.

[utee94 15744]

It's F1.  If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'.

 

 

 

But you're not supposed to get caught.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, utee94 said:

It's F1.  If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'.

 

 

 

But you're not supposed to get caught.

There's an idea floating around in my head about just having George Russell t-bone the competition or Valterri lock up in the rain and pinball into everyone to take them out or have Max push someone wide and how that will be much less of a penalty than trying to get a technical advantage through overspending on engineering.

[wood 11121]

4 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

There's an idea floating around in my head about just having George Russell t-bone the competition or Valterri lock up in the rain and pinball into everyone to take them out or have Max push someone wide and how that will be much less of a penalty than trying to get a technical advantage through overspending on engineering.

Yep. The current penalty 'structure', if we can even call it that, is a bad joke.

Most of this could be solved with a cleaned up, sensical penalty structure and well-trained, well-compensated, well-critiqued, travelling stewards. They could still have 1 or 2 local stewards at each race, but they wouldn't have to rely on them. 

Edited October 28, 2022 by wood

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, utee94 said:

It's F1.  If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'.

 

 

 

But you're not supposed to get caught.

Is it weird that I want them all to cheat their asses off AND for them to get caught?

Gimme the drama right into my veins.

[utee94 15744]

3 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

There's an idea floating around in my head about just having George Russell t-bone the competition or Valterri lock up in the rain and pinball into everyone to take them out or have Max push someone wide and how that will be much less of a penalty than trying to get a technical advantage through overspending on engineering.

Yup.

Like I said a couple days ago, penalty for taking someone out of the race with a stupid move, should be that your race is ended as well.  Don't know how well it would work as a deterrent but it sure would be satisfying. 

 

[wood 11121]

8 minutes ago, utee94 said:

Yup.

Like I said a couple days ago, penalty for taking someone out of the race with a stupid move, should be that your race is ended as well.  Don't know how well it would work as a deterrent but it sure would be satisfying. 

 

If they enforced it consistently, it would be a massive deterrent imho and we'd see an almost immediate improvement in driving standards after the first time someone was penalized for it.

[Goofyboy 3194]

Until the FIA clamp down on turn 1 incidents at the start of a race, very little will change. All the people going wide in different turn 1 races, etc, should all get a penalty.

Ferrari’s bullshit penalty was just that, bullshit. The is also bullshit. Oh no, I have to spend more money. Merc can just plug in numbers and oops have a rocket and only blow the cap by 4.99% next year on hamburgers.

Just like wanting a race ended if you take someone out - points off that can cost a championship are the only real deterrent.

[NoName 16286]

3 hours ago, Goofyboy said:

Red Bull did break the cost cap by $2.2 million. $7 million fine and only 10% wind tunnel reduction. That’s it. That’s all they get for cheating. Why even have a cost cap? FIA continues to suck.

Gotta cheat to win, I guess.

[wood 11121]

Nice ...

[utee94 15744]

Watching the pre-weekend show and FP1, and man Guenther is really salty about the reversal.  Can't blame him, but the problem was during the race.  For me, any appeal afterward, is bulljive.  Even if he'd filed it within the appropriate amount of time, I don't believe in changing the race results if Fred wasn't flagged off the circuit during the race.

 

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by utee94

[Chewbacca 7729]

4 minutes ago, utee94 said:

Watching the pre-weekend show and FP1, and man Guenther is really salty about the reversal.  Can't blame him, but the problem was during the race.  For me, any appeal afterward, is bulljive.  Even if he'd filed it within the appropriate amount of time, I don't believe in changing the race results if Fred wasn't flagged off the circuit during the race.

 

 

That's the crazy part - Haas brought up the issue during the race.  Fucking inconsistent stewards.  Checo's front wing end plate is another issue that isn't getting enough play here.  

[utee94 15744]

18 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

That's the crazy part - Haas brought up the issue during the race.  Fucking inconsistent stewards.  Checo's front wing end plate is another issue that isn't getting enough play here.  

Right, but that's the point.  It was brought up during the race, and yet no flag occurred.  Which means that it was deemed safe enough to continue.

I agree there should be more consistency, but if you're not flagged off the race course during the race, then for me, that's the end of it.  The decision has been made.

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

 

[wood 11121]

28 minutes ago, utee94 said:

Watching the pre-weekend show and FP1, and man Guenther is really salty about the reversal.  Can't blame him, but the problem was during the race.  For me, any appeal afterward, is bulljive.  Even if he'd filed it within the appropriate amount of time, I don't believe in changing the race results if Fred wasn't flagged off the circuit during the race.

Yeah I can see why they're upset. The real problem was that KMag was called in over something he shouldn't have been called in for in the first place ... and then Russell, Perez, and Alonso weren't called in. They came up with the right solution for the future of the sport imho, even though it's definitely going to leave a sour taste at Haas. The good thing is that they will probably not get called in every time there's some little thing loose on the car. Had they upheld the Haas protest, then gouing forward it would be a free for all of people calling for car X to come in or retire every time someone saw a little wiggle of a part. Like Martin said, the stewards and RD need to use some 'racing common sense' with these penalties.

[Chewbacca 7729]

6 minutes ago, utee94 said:

Right, but that's the point.  It was brought up during the race, and yet no flag occurred.  Which means that it was deemed safe enough to continue.

I agree there should be more consistency, but if you're not flagged off the race course during the race, then for me, that's the end of it.  The decision has been made.

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

 

Yeah, but when you look at it through Guenter's eyes, I can see why he's so upset.  3 black & orange flags for KMag this year, yet Alonso and Checo are allowed to drive around with pieces coming off and there is no action.

 

Then add in FIA's nonsensical punishment and reinstatement and it's a full on goat rodeo.