Formula 1 2022

[Amos Moses 795]

I guess that’s not the same definition I’ve associated with “pay driver.” I took it to mean a driver who isn’t a long term solution and gets the seat almost as a fill in and is paid like a contractor on a short term deal. But, your definition makes sense too. I don’t see a lot of need for that sort of “pay driver” going forward with all the media and sponsorship money coming into F1 these days.

[Chewbacca 7830]

51 minutes ago, Amos Moses said:

KMag is one, and if rumors are true Hulk will be another. To the point above it’s pretty weird Haas wouldn’t at least try again to make Danny Ric happen.

I don't think Danny wants to drive for Haas.  Guenther has said DR should contact him if he wants Mick's seat.

[deft 7078]

I guess that’s not the same definition I’ve associated with “pay driver.” I took it to mean a driver who isn’t a long term solution and gets the seat almost as a fill in and is paid like a contractor on a short term deal. But, your definition makes sense too. I don’t see a lot of need for that sort of “pay driver” going forward with all the media and sponsorship money coming into F1 these days.

Goatifi is literally paying to drive every weekend by funding the team. Italian Jesus did last year for AR. Mazespin for Haas. Stroll just up and bought the damn team so stroll jr is a lay driver too.

[utee94 16091]

Finally finished.  Boring race.  Boring track.  I really just don't like the Mexico circuit at all.  

One bright point, it was definitely nice seeing DannyRic flying through the field after yet another botched penalty assessment.

And poor Fred.  If it weren't for bad luck...

Edited October 31, 2022 by utee94

[wood 11778]

3 hours ago, NoName said:

who are the pay drivers still around right now though outside of Stroll (are you still technically a pay driver if your dad owns the team? haha)

technically, i guess Zhou Guanyu counts, but he has probably shown he at least should get a second season. plus no reason to sign someone to a long term contract when you are transitioning to an Audi works team in 2026. might as well keep a guy who has done decently as a rookie + brings what I assume is a ton of money/Chinese sponsorship?

Mick is only at Haas because Ferrari is paying for the seat. That deal ends this year, thus Mick will likely be gone as well. And Yuki is ok imho, but iosn't he only in that seat for Honda?

Edited October 31, 2022 by wood

[wood 11778]

2 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

I don't think Danny wants to drive for Haas.  Guenther has said DR should contact him if he wants Mick's seat.

I mean, it's Haas, so ... yeah. What you said.

[wood 11778]

5 hours ago, NoName said:

Loved Ricciardo firing a shot at Ocon before his overtake

https://streamable.com/7mx25q

 

Video's down. What happened?

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, wood said:

Video's down. What happened?

DR comes around the final turn to the straight with Ocon ahead of him. Does a finger gun at Ocon's car like "I got you in my sights" and then proceeds to fly past.

[NoName 17203]

9 minutes ago, wood said:

Video's down. What happened?

 

2 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

DR comes around the final turn to the straight with Ocon ahead of him. Does a finger gun at Ocon's car like "I got you in my sights" and then proceeds to fly past.

here is a youtube short mirror:

 

[wood 11778]

Fuck Ocon. Glad Danny got him.

[ConferenceRoom 6214]

I don't really have a problem with Danny's 10-seconds. That was a brainless dive into a gap-that-wasn't-actually-a-gap and he forced a retirement. That said, wow! What a drive. Those softs really turned on for him. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ConferenceRoom said:

I don't really have a problem with Danny's 10-seconds. That was a brainless dive into a gap-that-wasn't-actually-a-gap and he forced a retirement. That said, wow! What a drive. Those softs really turned on for him. 

GR's 5 seconds was laughable. DR's 10 seconds seems much better but I'm still not sure if it's enough. I don't think I like the idea of if you take someone out that you are also completely out of the race -- I prefer more cars on track. But some sort of penalty whereby if you egregiously make a bad move and knock someone out, then you're not going to place well. 

Maybe a requirement to fall to the back of the grid? A drive-through penalty? 

[ConferenceRoom 6214]

I would have accepted a drive-through penalty, as well, but they might reserve those for more dangerous moves. I can't remember the last drive through or stop and go penalty. I do think they use the 5-second penalty way too much. 

[NoName 17203]

39 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

GR's 5 seconds was laughable. DR's 10 seconds seems much better but I'm still not sure if it's enough. I don't think I like the idea of if you take someone out that you are also completely out of the race -- I prefer more cars on track. But some sort of penalty whereby if you egregiously make a bad move and knock someone out, then you're not going to place well. 

Maybe a requirement to fall to the back of the grid? A drive-through penalty? 

i thought 10 seconds was way better than 5.

i know they want racing and racing moves and first lap gets a pass a lot of the time, but if that same GR move happens later in the race? or the tables or turned and it's Carlos turning into George or *gasp* Lewis *gasp* Sky would still be talking about how he "only" got a 5 second penalty.

[utee94 16091]

1 hour ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

GR's 5 seconds was laughable. DR's 10 seconds seems much better but I'm still not sure if it's enough. I don't think I like the idea of if you take someone out that you are also completely out of the race -- I prefer more cars on track. But some sort of penalty whereby if you egregiously make a bad move and knock someone out, then you're not going to place well. 

Maybe a requirement to fall to the back of the grid? A drive-through penalty? 

I absolutely love the idea-- but the problems would manifest in the implementation/execution.  The incident analysis is going to end up being too subjective, and the punishment too punitive, to really ever fly.  But the idea of it, satisfies my sense of justice.  And presumably, if a penalty like this is handed down, then it will work to stop the bad behavior, so after a few incidents, folks would top the bullshit moves and so it wouldn't affect the number of cars on track.

But ultimately the problem is that for the fastest three teams, there is no penalty you can assess, that will effectively put them out of the top 6.  No drive-thru, no stop-n-go, no "move to the back of the pack."  Unless it happens within the last couple of laps, those cars are just too fast to NOT make up the time during the race.  So for Russell last week in Austin, he started 4th, and no matter what penalty was handed to him, he was going to end up no worse than 6th after it all.  So the absolute worst punishment possible, only costs him two spots at most.  And since his action actually took out another of the top 6 cars, the worst he could finish was going to be 5. So, a 1-place penalty.  And for me that's just not nearly enough punishment for his stupid-ass bullshit move.

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by utee94

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, utee94 said:

I absolutely love the idea-- but the problems would manifest in the implementation/execution.  The incident analysis is going to end up being too subjective, and the punishment too punitive, to really ever fly.  But the idea of it, satisfies my sense of justice.  And presumably, if a penalty like this is handed down, then it will work to stop the bad behavior, so after a few incidents, folks would top the bullshit moves and so it wouldn't affect the number of cars on track.

But ultimately the problem is that for the fastest three teams, there is no penalty you can assess, that will effectively put them out of the top 6.  No drive-thru, no stop-n-go, no "move to the back of the pack."  Unless it happens within the last couple of laps, those cars are just too fast to NOT make up the time during the race.  So for Russell last week in Austin, he started 4th, and no matter what penalty was handed to him, he was going to end up no worse than 6th after it all.  So the absolute worst punishment possible, only costs him two spots at most.  And since his action actually took out another of the top 6 cars, the worst he could finish was going to be 5. So, a 1-place penalty.  And for me that's just not nearly enough punishment for his stupid-ass bullshit move.

 

What about a grid place penalty that they do for engine penalties? So a five place penalty on your final finishing spot for taking someone out?

Edited November 1, 2022 by FirstTimeCaller

[ChickenSandwich 9988]

6 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

What about a grid place penalty that they do for engine penalties? So a five place penalty on your final finishing spot for taking someone out?

Makes sense. 
 

The best part of yhe entire race was Danny charging through the field due to a massive difference in tire performance. I wish they could incorporate this more into the races. 
 

Maybe the compound choices need to have bigger differences in performance and life. Make them use all 3 compounds. anything to introduce more strategy and action on track. 

[utee94 16091]

7 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

What about a grid place penalty that they do for engine penalties? So a five place penalty on your final finishing spot for taking someone out?

Hmmmm, interesting idea.  5 might not be enough in my justice-fueled mind, but it would at least guarantee you can't podium, and podiums matter.  I kinda like this idea.

1 minute ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Makes sense. 
 

The best part of yhe entire race was Danny charging through the field due to a massive difference in tire performance. I wish they could incorporate this more into the races. 
 

Maybe the compound choices need to have bigger differences in performance and life. Make them use all 3 compounds. anything to introduce more strategy and action on track. 

Going back to allowing refueling would do more to switch up race strategy than pretty much any other rule change, I think.

Honestly I'd like to take away the rules mandating tire changes. Give the teams three options but let them choose how and when to change.  Wanna stay out all race on the same hard tire?  Go for it.  Wanna change and run 3 different sets of soft for the entire race?  Why not? Give it a go.

Combine all of that, with unlimited refueling, and all of a sudden you have a crazy amount of options.  Try calculating THOSE pit exchange gaps against the other teams, with perfect precision.  Good luck.  We're all counting on you.

[wood 11778]

3 hours ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

GR's 5 seconds was laughable. DR's 10 seconds seems much better but I'm still not sure if it's enough. I don't think I like the idea of if you take someone out that you are also completely out of the race -- I prefer more cars on track. But some sort of penalty whereby if you egregiously make a bad move and knock someone out, then you're not going to place well. 

Maybe a requirement to fall to the back of the grid? A drive-through penalty? 

Yeah I'm a huge DR fan and loved watching the way he drove after that penalty, but the penalty was 100% deserved, was too lenient imho. It was an extremely ambitious & poorly executed move, esp at that part of the track. He was already 12-13 seconds ahead of both Tsunoda and Vettel immediately after he punted TSU, ending his race, and was 11.6 seconds ahead of Albon when the message came out that the incident was under investigation. He was 12s ahead when the 10s penalty was announced. Even if they'd applied it immediately, he wpould ven lose a position. He was ahead of Ocon by 12s at the end, so he lost 0 positions because of the penalty. So basically, he got no penalty at all, just like GR last week. He was in P12 when he made the move, and finished P7. Even if he'd lost a position with the penalty, he would have still been P8.

What I've said for years is that boneheaded moves like that, esp when they end someone's race, should result in very harsh punishment, like parking your car right then, or at least a 10s stop & go penalty with no pit stop allowed. If they continue with these light penalties in much stronger cars, it's just going to get worse. If they were to institute and enforce much harsher penalties, driving standards would clean up very quickly. As long as these guys can punt someone out of the way and then go on to gain more positions, some of them are going to do it.

[wood 11778]

1 hour ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

What about a grid place penalty that they do for engine penalties? So a five place penalty on your final finishing spot for taking someone out?

Yeah I've wondered about that as well. If you can assess a grid penalty for the next race (a la Stroll), then why can't you assess one for the race during which the infraction actually occured. In this case, that would have set RIC back to P12, which is at least a big deterrent to bad driving behavior.

[wood 11778]

1 hour ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Makes sense. 
 

The best part of yhe entire race was Danny charging through the field due to a massive difference in tire performance. I wish they could incorporate this more into the races. 
 

Maybe the compound choices need to have bigger differences in performance and life. Make them use all 3 compounds. anything to introduce more strategy and action on track. 

Or, let them use any compound they see fit, mix them front to back, etc. Let them be creative and take risks, and win or lose with their choices.

[Levi 2670]

So was it all tire strategy for Danny or a mix of McLaren letting him do his thing after the penalty and the plus of being on softs? 

[wood 11778]

1 hour ago, utee94 said:

Hmmmm, interesting idea.  5 might not be enough in my justice-fueled mind, but it would at least guarantee you can't podium, and podiums matter.  I kinda like this idea.

Going back to allowing refueling would do more to switch up race strategy than pretty much any other rule change, I think.

Honestly I'd like to take away the rules mandating tire changes. Give the teams three options but let them choose how and when to change.  Wanna stay out all race on the same hard tire?  Go for it.  Wanna change and run 3 different sets of soft for the entire race?  Why not? Give it a go.

Combine all of that, with unlimited refueling, and all of a sudden you have a crazy amount of options.  Try calculating THOSE pit exchange gaps against the other teams, with perfect precision.  Good luck.  We're all counting on you.

And it would allow the teams to push, push, push with lighter cars. The opposition to this will say, "but safety", and they'll point out lower overtaking numbers, but that was before DRS, when they had bulletproof, long lasting tires, and when the cars couldn't follow for shit.

[utee94 16091]

2 minutes ago, wood said:

And it would allow the teams to push, push, push with lighter cars. The opposition to this will say, "but safety", and they'll point out lower overtaking numbers, but that was before DRS, when they had bulletproof, long lasting tires, and when the cars couldn't follow for shit.

Yeah it's not nearly as simple as comparing the numbers of overtakes back then, compared to now.  Almost everything in the sport has changed.  Tires, DRS, engines, aero, even changes to sporting regs.... it's a completely different sport.

Safety is an issue for sure-- so put some money into it and make it safe.  They've done a remarkable job on improving car safety over the past couple decades, up to and including the past 4-5 years with the halo which has more than proven its worth.  I have great confidence that the best minds in motorsport can improve safety on fueling as well.

 

 

[wood 11778]

4 minutes ago, Levi said:

So was it all tire strategy for Danny or a mix of McLaren letting him do his thing after the penalty and the plus of being on softs? 

He drove well, but yeah, he had a huge tire advantage based on a smart move a la the Bulls. Let the teams decide how to use the tires, and imho you'd see more of this kind of thing.

[wood 11778]

Just now, utee94 said:

Yeah it's not nearly as simple as comparing the numbers of overtakes back then, compared to now.  Almost everything in the sport has changed.  Tires, DRS, engines, aero, even changes to sporting regs.... it's a completely different sport.

Safety is an issue for sure-- so put some money into it and make it safe.  They've done a remarkable job on improving car safety over the past couple decades, up to and including the past 4-5 years with the halo which has more than proven its worth.  I have great confidence that the best minds in motorsport can improve safety on fueling as well.

Yep. I agree 100% Those objections I threw out there were other people's objections, not mine. Making refueling safer could be as simple as reducing the rig pressure or even just eliminating pressurized refueling. Slower pitstops? Sure. Maybe more of them, too, which helps with variability, etc.

The sport needs more variability. Strategy has been boiled down to "Do we do a 1 stop, or a 2 stop. And which tires do we start and finish on". Throw refueling into that, on top of free tire choice, with cars that can follow as they can now, and you go from checkers to 4-D chess.

[utee94 16091]

1 hour ago, wood said:

Yep. I agree 100% Those objections I threw out there were other people's objections, not mine. Making refueling safer could be as simple as reducing the rig pressure or even just eliminating pressurized refueling. Slower pitstops? Sure. Maybe more of them, too, which helps with variability, etc.

The sport needs more variability. Strategy has been boiled down to "Do we do a 1 stop, or a 2 stop. And which tires do we start and finish on". Throw refueling into that, on top of free tire choice, with cars that can follow as they can now, and you go from checkers to 4-D chess.

Oh yeah, I was just agreeing with you, and then pontificating.  It's something I do.

And not only is it down to this: "Do we do a 1 stop, or a 2 stop. And which tires do we start and finish on" for your own team, but it's gotten pretty easy for teams to guess what their competitors will be doing, too.

But eliminate the mandated tire changes, add back refueling, and you've opened up multiple new layers of complexity that make predicting other teams' strategies and pit windows significantly more difficult.

And personally, I think a 2.2 second pit stop is boring AF.  Throw in refueling and let's generate some excitement and variability.

Make Formula 1 Variable Again

 

 

[Burt Macklin 19230]

8 hours ago, utee94 said:

I absolutely love the idea-- but the problems would manifest in the implementation/execution.  The incident analysis is going to end up being too subjective, and the punishment too punitive, to really ever fly.  But the idea of it, satisfies my sense of justice.  And presumably, if a penalty like this is handed down, then it will work to stop the bad behavior, so after a few incidents, folks would top the bullshit moves and so it wouldn't affect the number of cars on track.

But ultimately the problem is that for the fastest three teams, there is no penalty you can assess, that will effectively put them out of the top 6.  No drive-thru, no stop-n-go, no "move to the back of the pack."  Unless it happens within the last couple of laps, those cars are just too fast to NOT make up the time during the race.  So for Russell last week in Austin, he started 4th, and no matter what penalty was handed to him, he was going to end up no worse than 6th after it all.  So the absolute worst punishment possible, only costs him two spots at most.  And since his action actually took out another of the top 6 cars, the worst he could finish was going to be 5. So, a 1-place penalty.  And for me that's just not nearly enough punishment for his stupid-ass bullshit move.

 

The problem with the first punishment is teams would abuse it. If Lewis even touched Checo, RB would retire him immediately. 
 

I like the idea of placement penalties better than time. It ensures that you actually punish someone for a violation. 

[PittsburghTiger 6361]

On 10/29/2022 at 10:10 PM, Burt Macklin said:

So both Sainz and Leclerc were .4 down after S1 in Q3. Binotto says Leclerc had a DRS issue, but some reports are that Ferrari’s engines struggled with the thin air and they had to turn them down. Either way, JFC Ferrari, how many different ways can you find to fuck up? 

Rhetorical question?

[ConferenceRoom 6214]

An overlooked part of the race is that McLaren had the two fastest pit stops and Daniel's was sub 2 seconds. McLaren Perfect making a comeback? 

[kevwun 16450]

14 hours ago, Burt Macklin said:

The problem with the first punishment is teams would abuse it. If Lewis even touched Checo, RB would retire him immediately. 
 

I like the idea of placement penalties better than time. It ensures that you actually punish someone for a violation. 

Yeah, 5 or 10 spot finish penalties would put a stop to a lot of bs.  Doesn't matter how fast your car is, you won't make up the penalty.

[utee94 16091]

1 hour ago, kevwun said:

Yeah, 5 or 10 spot finish penalties would put a stop to a lot of bs.  Doesn't matter how fast your car is, you won't make up the penalty.

Yes I'm really warming to the idea.

And make the rule hard and fast-- you take out a car with a move that's judged to be a total boner on your part, then you get the final 5-spot grid position penalty (or 10-spot, or whatever is decided).  No leeway on punishment.

There would still be subjectivity in the determination of fault, but there always is.

Russel's bullshit move in Austin was pretty obvious IMO, 100% blame. Give that kind of crap a 5 or 10 spot penalty, and it should correct a lot of the bad behavior.

 

[Burt Macklin 19230]

26 minutes ago, utee94 said:

Yes I'm really warming to the idea.

And make the rule hard and fast-- you take out a car with a move that's judged to be a total boner on your part, then you get the final 5-spot grid position penalty (or 10-spot, or whatever is decided).  No leeway on punishment.

There would still be subjectivity in the determination of fault, but there always is.

Russel's bullshit move in Austin was pretty obvious IMO, 100% blame. Give that kind of crap a 5 or 10 spot penalty, and it should correct a lot of the bad behavior.

 

We’ll still be arguing about the stewards giving out a 1 place penalty for taking a guy completely out of the race, but at least it guarantees an actual punishment for the top three. I’m struggling to think of an instance where a time penalty actually cost a top car a place. 

[wood 11778]

17 minutes ago, Burt Macklin said:

We’ll still be arguing about the stewards giving out a 1 place penalty for taking a guy completely out of the race, but at least it guarantees an actual punishment for the top three. I’m struggling to think of an instance where a time penalty actually cost a top car a place. 

Exactly. At the very least, it would be a definitive penalty that you know you'll get and can't overcome. It would be a very strong deterrent.

I've never heard a good reason why you can penalize a guy grid spots for the next race but you can't do it for the race in which the incident actually occured - other than "They've just never done it that way". How does it make sense to penalize Latifi 5 grid spots in Mexico for a move he made in Austin, and then penalize Ricciardo 10s at the end of a race in which he took another guy out? 

It's stupid. Just give them grid drops in the final result, and be done with it.

Edited November 2, 2022 by wood

[Guest]

Tell me that Vegas won't be an awful track? Because it looks like it will be awful. I can maybe seem some passing into T5 if there is DRS and late braking. And maybe some between T1-4 as you go outside on T1, which sets you up for inside on T4. 

Other than that, it's going to be passing via DRS on the straights.

And I think for the cost of attending a race weekend in Las Vegas, you could likely travel to Japan or Europe and have a less expensive trip with fewer bros.

Edited November 2, 2022 by FirstTimeCaller

[utee94 16091]

It'll be an Event.

It won't be a race.

I guess you can say the same about Monaco, but Las Vegas isn't Monaco.

[VABuckeye 2481]

2 hours ago, Burt Macklin said:

I’m struggling to think of an instance where a time penalty actually cost a top car a place. 

LeClerc a couple of races ago when he left the course when Checo was challenging him on the last lap.

[Burt Macklin 19230]

Just now, VABuckeye said:

LeClerc a couple of races ago when he left the course when Checo was challenging him on the last lap.

True, but I think that’s also different because they decided it after the race when they knew the ramifications. Same for their decision to give Checo 5 seconds instead of 10 in Singapore. 

[Burt Macklin 19230]

That’s a good chunk of money for Haas. Maybe they’ll actually try developing in-season of this sponsors payments go through. 
 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Burt Macklin

[Anton Chigurh 3338]

Las Vegas will be one of the races of all time.

[NoName 17203]

1 hour ago, utee94 said:

It'll be an Event.

It won't be a race.

I guess you can say the same about Monaco, but Las Vegas isn't Monaco.

to be fair, nobody is going to Monaco to see the racing.

[utee94 16091]

32 minutes ago, Anton Chigurh said:

Las Vegas will be one of the races of all time.

If you're talking about a spectacle, sure. 

 

 

[wood 11778]

1 hour ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Tell me that Vegas won't be an awful track? Because it looks like it will be awful. I can maybe seem some passing into T5 if there is DRS and late braking. And maybe some between T1-4 as you go outside on T1, which sets you up for inside on T4. 

Other than that, it's going to be passing via DRS on the straights.

And I think for the cost of attending a race weekend in Las Vegas, you could likely travel to Japan or Europe and have a less expensive trip with fewer bros.

I dunno how good or bad the track will be, but I think we'll see overtaking opportunities at 1, 5, 12, and 14.

[VABuckeye 2481]

5 hours ago, Burt Macklin said:

True, but I think that’s also different because they decided it after the race when they knew the ramifications. Same for their decision to give Checo 5 seconds instead of 10 in Singapore. 

True but they had no choice but to make the decision after the race.   The incident happened on the last chicane of the last lap.  

[Guest]

Red Bull in Bellagio Wynn:
 

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by FirstTimeCaller

[Guest]

Pulled this off Reddit too. How is that even possible? 

[Mittens 8786]

Almost posted that the other day but got sidetracked.  Arguably one of the most impressive things I've ever seen in autosport.  Simply ridiculous.

[wood 11778]

14 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Pulled this off Reddit too. How is that even possible? 

Metronomic. Dude's an absolute machine. 

1 hour ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Red Bull in Bellagio Wynn:
 

 

I can't imagine how loud that must have been indoors like that.

[Anton Chigurh 3338]

Pulled this off Reddit too. How is that even possible? 

TBH, this is pretty standard for the top tier guys when driving to a delta. It of course requires driving mostly in clean air too.

VER and HAM



VER and ALO (you can mostly ignore ALO’s second stint since that is when he started having the engine issues).



VER and various others. LEC was a little more erratic at the end here, but still very good.



It is still obviously impressive, but it happens fairly often.

[Burt Macklin 19230]

1 hour ago, Anton Chigurh said:

TBH, this is pretty standard for the top tier guys when driving to a delta. It of course requires driving mostly in clean air too.

VER and HAM



VER and ALO (you can mostly ignore ALO’s second stint since that is when he started having the engine issues).



VER and various others. LEC was a little more erratic at the end here, but still very good.



It is still obviously impressive, but it happens fairly often.

The last one shows just how bad the Ferrari eats it’s tyres. Both Leclerc and Sainz have had massive drop off at the end of their stints ever since TD 39 went into effect after summer break. They can still match RB’s pace on most tracks like they could in the first half, but their tyres fall off like crazy while RB seem to be able to make their tyres last forever.