Formula 1 2022

[Amos Moses 795]

Too much downforce from the ground effect seems to initiate or cause porpoising. I think Merc tried to offset that by raising the car and extending the wing to reclaim some downforce, but that resulted in too much drag.

[Anton Chigurh 3335]

I watched part of the first practice last week and they had on someone who explained that too much downforce was the cause of the porpoising.  Car gets pushed down on to the track and bounces off, only to get pushed back down by the downforce, rinse and repeat

This is what we have been told, but James Allison said yesterday it’s not caused by what the TV pundits are saying, so I dunno.

[wood 11766]

That's sorta it. The way I've understood it is that when the car gets too low or even hits the track, that stalls the airflow under the floor, killing the downforce generated by it. That causes the car to elevate again, and then the airflow resumes and downforce is restored ... wash, rinse, repeat.

[Betty Blackwell 144]

3 hours ago, NoName said:

...so to be clear, you are saying that the fact MB engines finished in the last SIX places for those who finished the race is all due to the clients and has nothing to do with the engines?

Williams and Aston Martin finished exactly where you'd expect. McLaren's the outlier but it's well known that they had significant brake cooling issues. Kinda hard to be quick when your brakes don't work.

But it's the engines, yeah. 😂

Edited March 24, 2022 by Betty Blackwell

[wood 11766]

9 minutes ago, Betty Blackwell said:

Williams and Aston Martin finished exactly where you'd expect. McLaren's the outlier but it's well known that they had significant brake cooling issues.

But it's the engines, yeah. 😂

You think Mercedes finished where they were expected to? They were 3 & 4, and would have been 5 & 6 or 6 & 7 without the Honda vapor locks. And they had nothing for Ferrari or RBR. Even Toto has said their problems are not all down to the car/aero.

Lack of power (or an abundance of it) also effects almost everything else the teams will do in setting up the car. A car with a lot of power relative to the others can run more downforce and still stay ahead on the straights, while extending gaps in the twisty bits. It also covers flaws in your car. When you're at a power deficit, everything is compromised, and all your weaknesses are exposed or exaggerated. Try to run extra DF, and you're too slow on the straights. Try to trim DF to keep up on the straights, and they just leave you in the twisty bits. Run balanced and you're losing time everywhere.

I don't think anyone is saying it's all down to the PU, but it sure seems to be playing a significant role. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by wood

[Burt Macklin 19230]

So Merc is expected to have their porpoising development fix ready for Imola. It will be fascinating to see how their car performs once that’s on. Them not bringing the B spec until Bahrain means they’ve basically been at the level all other teams were at Barcelona testing for the first two races. 

Normally gaining 3/4 of a second would take forever, but since the porpoising compromises everything else, they could see massive time increase from it. Depending on how effective it is, it’s possible they could be the top of the field. Or, they could find this development didn’t quite fix it and they’re stuck with performance compromises for that much longer and are substantially off the pace of Ferrari or RB. 

I really hope Ferrari takes advantage of such an open field until then. Best case scenario for Merc would be more reliability problems for RB and RB stealing wins from Ferrari when they finish. 

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Burt Macklin

[Anton Chigurh 3335]

They can switch when their contract runs out if they wish.


After thinking though, some of this Merc stuff may be coincidental.

Merc, Aston, Williams, and McLaren are all running very compromised right now.

Apparently raising the ride height to help with proposing adds a ton of drag, and Merc/AM/Williams are all having to do this AFAIK (Merc and AM with 100% certainty). McLaren’s issues are different, but it’s even possible that they just lack downforce anyway and that’s why they never had a porpoising issue.

Also, porpoising occurs at higher speed, so utilizing that power may not mean anything if you are just going to have an unstable car.

We will just have to wait to really see where the truth lies once the teams can get on top of their issues.

The Ferrari does seem like it is the best PU, at least so far, but all PUs should be within probably 15-20 HP from some stuff I was reading. A lot of the traction on slow corners is how the power is deployed, not how much you have per se.

Last note: The ICE components and fuel are already homologated. The hybrid component homologation date is later this year on September 1.

Oh hey.

https://www.racefans.net/2022/03/24/norriss-admission-mclaren-are-lacking-100-points-of-downforce-shows-depth-of-plight/

[hobbes2702 13477]

1 hour ago, kevwun said:

I watched part of the first practice last week and they had on someone who explained that too much downforce was the cause of the porpoising.  Car gets pushed down on to the track and bounces off, only to get pushed back down by the downforce, rinse and repeat

The ringer F1 pod had a guy on from Motorcar magazine I think and he described it the exact same way

[Betty Blackwell 144]

8 minutes ago, wood said:

I don't think anyone is saying it's all down to the PU, but it sure seems to be playing a significant role. 

At least one person is pretty set on it. 😂

 

Quote

Even Toto has said their problems are not all down to the car/aero.

Yeah, listen to what they are saying and look at the telemetry too – they lift earlier than the others because the car is skipping around, to paraphrase what Russell has said. They put the power down later than the others because it's so unstable. They are losing time in and out of every corner.

The floor doesn't work, and the sidepod concept doesn't work (apparently the center of gravity is too high, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯), so you're porpoising and you stiffen the suspension to mitigate that, and now your car's way harder to drive. So you add more wing and top end is compromised.

Like I said before, the entire package sucks. But engines, bro.

 

[Anton Chigurh 3335]

Yeah, listen to what they are saying and look at the telemetry too – they lift earlier than the others because the car is skipping around, to paraphrase what Russell has said. They put the power down later than the others because it's so unstable. They are losing time in and out of every corner.
The floor doesn't work, and the sidepod concept doesn't work (apparently the center of gravity is too high, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯), so you're porpoising and you stiffen the suspension to mitigate that, and now your car's way harder to drive. So you add more wing and top end is compromised.
Like I said before, the entire package sucks. But engines, bro.
 

A lot their time is lost because they have to brake a lot earlier than others right now (which, of course, also hampers speed trap numbers).

[wood 11766]

8 minutes ago, Betty Blackwell said:

At least one person is pretty set on it. 😂

 

Yeah, listen to what they are saying and look at the telemetry too – they lift earlier than the others because the car is skipping around, to paraphrase what Russell has said. They put the power down later than the others because it's so unstable. They are losing time in and out of every corner.

The floor doesn't work, and the sidepod concept doesn't work (apparently the center of gravity is too high, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯), so you're porpoising and you stiffen the suspension to mitigate that, and now your car's way harder to drive. So you add more wing and top end is compromised.

Like I said before, the entire package sucks. But engines, bro.

 

The engine is part of the package.

Who's saying Merc's problems are all down to the PU? (Sorry, lost my scorecard)

[Anton Chigurh 3335]

Some 2021 Honda PU photos.

See the telescoping variable intake runners. Pretty neat.




The MGU-H.

[ConferenceRoom 6214]

I'm gonna be honest that looks like witchcraft to me. 

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, ConferenceRoom said:

I'm gonna be honest that looks like witchcraft to me. 

Man, those telescoping variable intake runners. I mean, woo. Boy. See how they... telescope? Yep. And they are so variable too. You know,, in case you need to, uh, change the intake... run?

 

[wood 11766]

5 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Man, those telescoping variable intake runners. I mean, woo. Boy. See how they... telescope? Yep. And they are so variable too. You know,, in case you need to, uh, change the intake... run?

Immediately thought of this ...

 

[faps 818]

I feel like that is the first time I have seen one of the MGU-H's uncovered. Thanks for the pics.

And related to ground effect cars, when they first debuted back in the late 70's or so. I remember them having the side skirts to "trap" the air under the car. They ended up having to run insanely strong, almost solid suspensions to keep the air trapped under there and thereby producing the downforce. Pretty sure the drivers were getting really jostled around in the car during the races. That led to the skirts and ground effect getting banned if I recall.

[wood 11766]

6 minutes ago, faps said:

I feel like that is the first time I have seen one of the MGU-H's uncovered. Thanks for the pics.

And related to ground effect cars, when they first debuted back in the late 70's or so. I remember them having the side skirts to "trap" the air under the car. They ended up having to run insanely strong, almost solid suspensions to keep the air trapped under there and thereby producing the downforce. Pretty sure the drivers were getting really jostled around in the car during the races. That led to the skirts and ground effect getting banned if I recall.

Yep. The skirts were there to help prevent leakage out the sides of the car. They also had concerns about sudden detachment of the airflow and thus sudden loss of downforce causing high-speed crashes. They were almost solely dependent on ground effect DF produced by the floor. Had they stuck with it and tweaked the rules accordingly, safer ground effect downforce methods would probably have developed much more quickly.

Edited March 24, 2022 by wood

[wood 11766]

Alpine in the paddock with new sidepods and floor with new cutouts, at least on Ocon's car.

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by wood

[wood 11766]

SC v MC in SA...

 

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, wood said:

SC v MC in SA...

 

I don't know if it will ever get old hearing drivers complain about how slow the safety car is going when it's actually hauling ass around the track for anything that's not an F1 car. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by FirstTimeCaller

[wood 11766]

Seb still not confirmed for SA. Some speculation that he's so disenchanted with AM's prospects for the season that he may not return. But, wewillsee...

 

[wood 11766]

Just now, FirstTimeCaller said:

I don't know if it will ever get hold hearing drivers complain about how slow the safety car is going when it's actually hauling ass around the track for anything that's not an F1 car. 

Yeah I drove an AMG GT R out at COTA (the same one Lewis drove Bolt around in). It did not seem slow.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, wood said:

Yeah I drove an AMG GT R out at COTA (the same one Lewis drove Bolt around in). It did not seem slow.

Just looked up the model for the Mercedes safety car. It's a cool $325,000. No big deal.

[Chewbacca 7830]

16 minutes ago, wood said:

SC v MC in SA...

 

What kind of engine mods does the safety car have to get away like that on the medical car?  They should have the same engine.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

What kind of engine mods does the safety car have to get away like that on the medical car?  They should have the same engine.

Should they? Aren't they different cars?

[Chewbacca 7830]

2 hours ago, wood said:

The engine is part of the package.

Who's saying Merc's problems are all down to the PU? (Sorry, lost my scorecard)

Yeah, I haven't seen anyone say the PU is the sole issue, but I think it's certainly part of the issue.  Especially with the rumors that Ferrari doesn't even have theirs turned up yet.

[Chewbacca 7830]

1 minute ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Should they? Aren't they different cars?

They both have the AMG 4.0L twin turbo V8.

[ConferenceRoom 6214]

5 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

What kind of engine mods does the safety car have to get away like that on the medical car?  They should have the same engine.

 

3 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Should they? Aren't they different cars?

Either way, the medical car lifted. It might have been a "race" for 50 meters or so but they quickly reverted to the safety car-medical car practice runs they do, which is one of my favorite parts of attending a race weekend. 

[Burt Macklin 19230]

40 minutes ago, wood said:

Alpine in the paddock with new sidepods and floor with new cutouts, at least on Ocon's car.

 

Are those sidepods different than what Alonso had in Bahrain? 

[Chewbacca 7830]

5 minutes ago, ConferenceRoom said:

 

Either way, the medical car lifted. It might have been a "race" for 50 meters or so but they quickly reverted to the safety car-medical car practice runs they do, which is one of my favorite parts of attending a race weekend. 

Yeah, of course they aren't going in to turn 1 wheel to wheel, just surprised how fast the safety car got out on him is all.

[G650 14437]

39 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

They both have the AMG 4.0L twin turbo V8.

I don't know about these models specifically, but there is a massive range of specs on the Merc 4.0. I have one currently, and my next whip has one with 150 more HP, it's all over the place

[Chewbacca 7830]

7 minutes ago, G650 said:

I don't know about these models specifically, but there is a massive range of specs on the Merc 4.0. I have one currently, and my next whip has one with 150 more HP, it's all over the place

Yeah, but these two cars spec out pretty close.  Less than 100 hp difference between them when stock.  What we saw wasn't 100 hp difference, which made me wonder if they tune the safety car so it can lap faster.  Or maybe the medical car just didn't give it the beans, who knows?

Edited March 24, 2022 by Chewbacca

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

 Or maybe the medical car just didn't give it the beans, who knows?

Typical Merc sandbagging. Every damn year.

[wood 11766]

7 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Yeah, but these two cars spec out pretty close.  Less than 100 hp difference between them when stock.  What we saw wasn't 100 hp difference, which made me wonder if they tune the safety car so it can lap faster.

I assume there's a significant weight difference there, but I'm too lazy to look it up. Also, the MC likely is loaded with medical gear and other equipment. They should be driving them outfitted as they will be over the weekend.

[wood 11766]

9 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Or maybe the medical car just didn't give it the beans, who knows?

And yeah, this too. As far as I can remember, I've never seen the MC in front fo the SC on Thrusday.

[Guest]

Medical Car vs. Safety Car 2022 discussion is about to turn into the new Max vs Lewis debate.

 

[wood 11766]

... not going away.

[wood 11766]

Looks like Toto took his chainsaw to the diffuser.

[Anton Chigurh 3335]

The cutout has been there.

[wood 11766]

21 minutes ago, Anton Chigurh said:

The cutout has been there.

Ah, thanks. People are talking like it's new.

[kevwun 16438]

Those portable cardiac monitors weigh close to 50 lbs by themselves.

[utee94 16088]

9 hours ago, ConferenceRoom said:

Damn, hyperbole abound in here. The W13 isn't even the ugliest car of the last ten years. Dick nose Lotus anyone?

No hyperbole just opinion.  lotus dick-nose looked about 10x better than the W13 cheap titjob abortion.

[Anton Chigurh 3335]

Ah, thanks. People are talking like it's new.

Probably because Fabrega posted it along with some other photos. There’s not a whole lot of photos of it because it’s kind of tucked in behind the tire, which is probably why he took that one to be honest.

[wood 11766]

3 hours ago, Anton Chigurh said:

Probably because Fabrega posted it along with some other photos. There’s not a whole lot of photos of it because it’s kind of tucked in behind the tire, which is probably why he took that one to be honest.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, it was on the car during testing. I just can't find clarification on whether it was there in Bahrain.

[wood 11766]

Oh my.

[Huckleberry 34655]

Great, another track other than Monaco where my wife will walk in while I'm watching the race and ask me why I'm watching Iron Man 2.

[ConferenceRoom 6214]

10 hours ago, wood said:

Oh my.

Tacky. 

[52-80 19377]

10 hours ago, wood said:

Oh my.

but let's use hybrid powertrain and e10 fuel to promote eco-centrism!

[Guest]

11 hours ago, wood said:

Oh my.

1. Stuff like this is why I don't like places like Miami and Vegas getting F1 races. We just can't help but make things bigger, gaudier, and faker than they need to be. Make it about everything other than the actual sport. 

2. No one going to mention that there's a bunch of 60-80' yachts in that water, except that it's a pond with no entry? They going to helicopter the things into there?

[NoName 17148]

21 hours ago, wood said:

The engine is part of the package.

Who's saying Merc's problems are all down to the PU? (Sorry, lost my scorecard)

literally no one - that guy is acting like i am saying that the entire reason AM/Williams/McLaren are at the bottom is due to the Mercedes PU, which all i (and you?) were saying is that teams with Mercedes PU are under performing basically across the board. all Mercedes powered teams have (pretty) major issues, which as far as we can tell so far, include a lack of power from the PU compared to Ferrari and RBR PUs