The Climate thread

[Captainant 27680]

3 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

I've had a thought for years that the Western countries who've alread obliterated their massive forests should pay Brazil handsomely to protect those forests. I know it's ebil globalism and shit, but why leave the burden of averting an international crisis in the hands of a single country?

Pay off the current rapacious destroyers of the forest to kill their incentive for continuing. I don't care if they're evil. I don't care what they are. They're in it for money, pay them and be rid of them. In the breathing space before the next round of exploiters appear, take steps preserve and protect the forests. Fund the local, indigenous peoples in the best way to kill any incentive they have to destroy the forest just to feed their people.

That's literally the carbon credit business model, and is how big companies like Amazon and Microsoft are planning to be "carbon neutral". The real problem is that there's no good way to certify that process, and upon further inspection it seems the whole market is snake oil with the same lot of trees being sold and resold over and over again, or never even existing in the first place.

[RomaVicta 29929]

2 minutes ago, Captainant said:

That's literally the carbon credit business model, and is how big companies like Amazon and Microsoft are planning to be "carbon neutral". The real problem is that there's no good way to certify that process, and upon further inspection it seems the whole market is snake oil with the same lot of trees being sold and resold over and over again, or never even existing in the first place.

I always thought the carbon credit thing was sound only in theory. Seems like it would be easy to corrupt it in the way you describe. The buyer just wants to keep polluting and has no incentive to follow up to see if their money is being used as promised. Further, seems like a pretty good kickback scheme could be generated.

The surviving families huddling in rusted out SUVs to escape the weather extremes will have plenty of time to reflect on this and hate our selfish guts.

Hey, Daddy, I think these seats are real leather. Maybe we can boil them and eat them! I'm tired of chewing on vynyl.

We'll feast tonight, daughter!  

Tell me again what MPH meant.

Nobody cared, honey. Not one shit.

[Pato del Muerto 52524]

1 hour ago, Mdhorn said:

I've said this many times--if I'm wrong, then we erred on the side of caution--no harm, no foul and needed to it eventually anyways since petroleum is nonrenewable. If you're wrong, then what?  Do you honestly believe 9 billion people can't affect the planet?  Why are you against acting responsibly?  It's usually met with silence or stupidity--but there's no changing minds or retention.  Clean brainwash of any logic or rational thought.  

The general answer is I don’t want it to cost me money to do things that I’ve decided won’t help the issue that I don’t believe exists, and doesn’t help me in any way. 

Edited March 8 by Pato del Muerto

[Mdhorn 5970]

2 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

The general answer is I don’t want it to cost me money to do things that I’ve decided won’t help the issue that I don’t believe exists, and doesn’t help me in any way. 

True, but everybody has admitted to it now--the charade is over.  Big oil is blaming the populace for allowing them to do it--citizens shouldn't have allowed them to pay legislators to control the message. It's never ending. And this is the end message for the rich taking advantage in capitalism--shouldn't have allowed us to do it.  Unfortunately, the bill still has to be paid, just going to cost more and those enabling this are hoping they'll be dead by then.  

Edited March 8 by Mdhorn

[Biff Tannen 45691]

4 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

I've had a thought for years that the Western countries who've alread obliterated their massive forests should pay Brazil handsomely to protect those forests. I know it's ebil globalism and shit, but why leave the burden of averting an international crisis in the hands of a single country?

Pay off the current rapacious destroyers of the forest to kill their incentive for continuing. I don't care if they're evil. I don't care what they are. They're in it for money, pay them and be rid of them. In the breathing space before the next round of exploiters appear, take steps preserve and protect the forests. Fund the local, indigenous peoples in the best way to kill any incentive they have to destroy the forest just to feed their people.

The US and the rest of the West have got fat eating up other country's resources. It's time to put back where we can.

I know the first instinct of many Americans is to invade, but let's try to throttle back a little on that inclination. Maybe help people instead of bombing them. 

And put a lot of money into carbon capture if there's any future in it. I'm not well educated on it.

Oh, and stop riding around in giant fucking pick up trucks if you're not a rancher or outdoor worker for fuck's sake.

I've been saying this as well.  As far as the Amazon, I think it's the only real solution.  Pay these people to protect the lungs of the earth.  

[troph 24852]

[Biff Tannen 45691]

The fact that Texas is dominating in renewable energy, yet our government has one of the most antithetical stances towards it is maybe the best example of what has become of the Republican Party today.

Everything you believe in isn’t real. 

[Dahobbs 17625]

3 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

The fact that Texas is dominating in renewable energy, yet our government has one of the most antithetical stances towards it is maybe the best example of what has become of the Republican Party today.

Everything you believe in isn’t real. 

Yup. We have the most wind in the country. And we recently surpassed California for the most utility scale solar (California still leads if you count residential solar). That lead is only going to grow over the next 5 years. Unclear if politics will start to slow it down after that. 

[bolverk 29684]

23 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

I've been saying this as well.  As far as the Amazon, I think it's the only real solution.  Pay these people to protect the lungs of the earth.  

Sorry to inform you, but the Amazon is already going up in flames (free shared link).

 

Edited March 9 by bolverk

[Biff Tannen 45691]

14 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Sorry to inform you, but the Amazon is already going up in flames (free shared link).

 

Yeah, we are fucked.  Should still at least TRY.

[troph 24852]

We - industrialized countries - absolutely need to pay oil type royalties to rain forest and alpine forest countries. Can’t happen fast enough. 

Edited March 10 by troph

[Bookman 4639]

On 3/8/2024 at 8:07 AM, WhatTheBuck said:

We need to learn to say to our family, friends, and loved ones: “You can’t be that dumb.”

But they are. 

 

[troph 24852]

37 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

I don't believe what you are describing (greenwashing) is what is meant by carbon capture.

Carbon capture is more like the moonshot that Oxy is trying to do which is putting this huge machines in the ground that suck Co2 out of the air and then change it: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/occidental-plans-275-million-2022-carbon-capture-projects-2022-03-23/

Can we please build 100,000,000 of these pretty please. 

[Captainant 27680]

1 hour ago, BeardIP said:

I don't believe what you are describing (greenwashing) is what is meant by carbon capture.

Carbon capture is more like the moonshot that Oxy is trying to do which is putting this huge machines in the ground that suck Co2 out of the air and then change it: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/occidental-plans-275-million-2022-carbon-capture-projects-2022-03-23/

We weren't talking about "carbon capture" - we were talking about paying locals to NOT deforest an area, and then that "preserved" forest is now a transferrable carbon credit. Carbon sequestration is theoretically a method to generate carbon credits as they will also guarantee (theoretically) a semi-permenant reduction of CO2 from the atmosphere. 

TBH, we're about 2 decades late for the big oil companies to be able to make a difference, but it's nice that Oxy realized that we're all fucked and our children will suffer greatly for our abuse of the planetary ecosystem 

[troph 24852]

It’s too late but god dammit we still need to do it - pay countries with natural carbon sinks and capture carbon from the air and frankly when I’m elected president I’ll make big oil spend the greater of 30% of their profits or x tons of CO2 on carbon capture facilities. Time to suck this CO2 right out of the god damn air.

Edited March 12 by troph

[Biff Tannen 45691]

8 hours ago, troph said:

It’s too late but god dammit we still need to do it - pay countries with natural carbon sinks and capture carbon from the air and frankly when I’m elected president I’ll make big oil spend the greater of 30% of their profits or x tons of CO2 on carbon capture facilities. Time to suck this CO2 right out of the god damn air.

[WhatTheBuck 28788]

8 hours ago, troph said:

Time to suck this CO2 right out of the god damn air.

I don’t know if this is how you meant it but this is how I heard it.

 

[bolverk 29684]

8 hours ago, troph said:

It’s too late but god dammit we still need to do it - pay countries with natural carbon sinks and capture carbon from the air and frankly when I’m elected president I’ll make big oil spend the greater of 30% of their profits or x tons of CO2 on carbon capture facilities. Time to suck this CO2 right out of the god damn air.

Biden's DOE has a program to assist refineries in capturing carbon. Last month, it was announced that the refinery in my hometown would receive assistance.

BRENTWOOD, Tenn., Feb. 2, 2024 /PRNewswire/ -- Delek US Holdings, Inc. (NYSE: DK) ("Delek US") today announced that it has been selected by the Department of Energy's (DOE) Office of Clean Energy Demonstrations to negotiate a cost-sharing agreement in support of a carbon capture pilot project in the Big Spring refinery. The DOE Carbon Capture Large-Scale Pilot Project program provides 70% cost-share for up to $95 million of federal funding to support project development.

*****

The project will deploy Svante Technologies Inc.'s second-generation carbon capture technology at the Delek Big Spring refinery's fluidized catalytic cracking unit (FCCU), while maintaining existing production capabilities and turnaround schedule. Expectations for the project are to capture 145,000 metric tons of carbon dioxide per year, as well as reduce health-harming pollutants, such as SOx and particulate matter. Carbon dioxide is expected to be transported by existing pipelines for permanent storage or utilization. A goal of the Big Spring refinery FCCU pilot is to achieve cost reductions and help commercialize carbon capture technology.

[troph 24852]

MOAR!!!!

[Reality Check 137]

These people should be getting every penny that's spent on "climate science." They're actually positively impacting the reality of man's impact on world we live in. imagine what they could do with double or triple their budget. 

https://theoceancleanup.com/

 

[safe sex 11735]

Fuck off 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

38 minutes ago, Reality Check said:

These people should be getting every penny that's spent on "climate science." They're actually positively impacting the reality of man's impact on world we live in. imagine what they could do with double or triple their budget. 

https://theoceancleanup.com/

 

Their open ocean cleanup is interesting but their real work is with rivers carrying plastic and other trash out to sea. Here is one of the videos from this group that is working to fix a wall of plastic flowing down a Guatemala river. They fail in this attempt but failures are not always negative.

It's easy to say that poor people need to learn to properly dispose of trash but I bet most of the problem is due to lack of nearby infrastructure . Still there could be an opportunity to educate them on the importance of attempting to properly dispose of trash. Once again, if the option is there for them.

Putting these locals to work continuously cleaning out the rivers seems like the best return on the dollar but you also have to independently monitor it. It could create an perverse incentive for an enterprising person to purposefully dump trash into the river to be paid to clean it up. See the story about the Brits paying Indians to kill cobras, or the Hanoi rat massacre.

Edited March 14 by Nice Guy Eddie

[Biff Tannen 45691]

3 hours ago, Reality Check said:

These people should be getting every penny that's spent on "climate science." They're actually positively impacting the reality of man's impact on world we live in. imagine what they could do with double or triple their budget. 

https://theoceancleanup.com/

 

Imagine if that budget came from defense or any of a billion other wasteful Republican policies.  You're a fucking clown.

[Reality Check 137]

11 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

Imagine if that budget came from defense…

I’ve got no problem with that. America’s Defense Department should be protecting America and its direct economic interests — NATO, Japan, Hong Kong, South Korea.

It could effectively do so with 1/4th its current budget. Maybe less.

[troph 24852]

18 hours ago, Reality Check said:

These people should be getting every penny that's spent on "climate science." They're actually positively impacting the reality of man's impact on world we live in. imagine what they could do with double or triple their budget. 

https://theoceancleanup.com/

 

 

ocean clean up and 4 ocean are bad ass. Ocean health is probably the number one ecological disaster we are facing. But plastic pollution is only one of a handful of existential threats to marine ecosystems. Warming oceans is probably the number one threat. That’s how bad it is because plastic pollution is off the charts bad.

Edited March 15 by troph

[elfenix 34310]

18 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

It's easy to say that poor people need to learn to properly dispose of trash but I bet most of the problem is due to lack of nearby infrastructure . Still there could be an opportunity to educate them on the importance of attempting to properly dispose of trash. Once again, if the option is there for them.

trash builds up in the nets on buffalo bayou west of downtown, which basically doesn't flow through any poor areas of town.  we're all disgusting.

Edited March 15 by elfenix

[Biff Tannen 45691]

2 hours ago, elfenix said:

trash builds up in the nets on buffalo bayou west of downtown, which basically doesn't flow through any poor areas of town.  we're all disgusting.

Every time I go to Costco, I see the millions of plastic containers for EVERYTHING and extrapolate that out in my brain as to how much of that inventory is replaced every day and how many Costcos there are and all the other big box stores and how many plastic water bottles  are used everyday and it is all just overwhelming and we are fucked.

[hookem2010 2624]

23 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Every time I go to Costco, I see the millions of plastic containers for EVERYTHING and extrapolate that out in my brain as to how much of that inventory is replaced every day and how many Costcos there are and all the other big box stores and how many plastic water bottles  are used everyday and it is all just overwhelming and we are fucked.

Dude, same. Reassuring to see I'm not the only one who experiences existential dread any time I walk into any large store.

[hookem2010 2624]

20 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Their open ocean cleanup is interesting but their real work is with rivers carrying plastic and other trash out to sea. Here is one of the videos from this group that is working to fix a wall of plastic flowing down a Guatemala river. They fail in this attempt but failures are not always negative.

It's easy to say that poor people need to learn to properly dispose of trash but I bet most of the problem is due to lack of nearby infrastructure . Still there could be an opportunity to educate them on the importance of attempting to properly dispose of trash. Once again, if the option is there for them.

Putting these locals to work continuously cleaning out the rivers seems like the best return on the dollar but you also have to independently monitor it. It could create an perverse incentive for an enterprising person to purposefully dump trash into the river to be paid to clean it up. See the story about the Brits paying Indians to kill cobras, or the Hanoi rat massacre.

I went on a guided nature walk last year south of Tulum, which started with a walk through the neighboring town of Chunyaxche. Trash piled up in ditches in front of every house, as well as a huge trash pile right outside the entrance to the preserve. They simply don't have trash collection, so people have to dump and/or burn everything.

[troph 24852]

3 hours ago, elfenix said:

trash builds up in the nets on buffalo bayou west of downtown, which basically doesn't flow through any poor areas of town.  we're all disgusting.

I watched one of those survival shows guys and gals left in remote Alaska for like 90 days all alone, longest to survive wins $500k or something. 

It took only a month for humans to use our tool making ability to create disruption in an otherwise pristine environment. Fire pits, shit holes, make shift cabins, canoes, traps, none of it bad but the thing is human by products are like no other living creature. We don’t just trample the forest with our feet like an elephant we use, consume and destroy things like a fucking disease.

it was that show that crystallized what I’ve been thinking for a long while - humans are disgusting. 

[jimmyjazz 45976]

1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

Every time I go to Costco, I see the millions of plastic containers for EVERYTHING and extrapolate that out in my brain as to how much of that inventory is replaced every day and how many Costcos there are and all the other big box stores and how many plastic water bottles  are used everyday and it is all just overwhelming and we are fucked.

Years ago I attended a plastics & composites conference in Orlando.  (I was trying to find vendors who might mass-produce a complicated fiberglass part.)  One company had an entire working bottle line set up, manufacturing 12 oz biodegradable bottles on site.  They had 4 or 5 local craft brews they were giving away.  This line must have been 20 yards wide by 40 yards long, it was awesome.

I can only assume the cost per part was so high that no actual beverage company would move in that direction.  

[troph 24852]

1 hour ago, hookem2010 said:

Dude, same. Reassuring to see I'm not the only one who experiences existential dread any time I walk into any large store.

I think I reached my lifetime limit on therapy but if I were to return existential dread caused by climate change and human filth would be a top 3 reason. 

[troph 24852]

1 hour ago, hookem2010 said:

I went on a guided nature walk last year south of Tulum, which started with a walk through the neighboring town of Chunyaxche. Trash piled up in ditches in front of every house, as well as a huge trash pile right outside the entrance to the preserve. They simply don't have trash collection, so people have to dump and/or burn everything.

Rage rep for (1) people blaming them for being dirty and (2) for the lack of infrastructure.

reality is climate change is one thing but other pollution is often substantially reduced by economic prosperity. 

[troph 24852]

14 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Years ago I attended a plastics & composites conference in Orlando.  (I was trying to find vendors who might mass-produce a complicated fiberglass part.)  One company had an entire working bottle line set up, manufacturing 12 oz biodegradable bottles on site.  They had 4 or 5 local craft brews they were giving away.  This line must have been 20 yards wide by 40 yards long, it was awesome.

I can only assume the cost per part was so high that no actual beverage company would move in that direction.  

Glass and aluminum bother me a lot less because I’ve assumed recycling is pretty well dialed in on those. 

[Biff Tannen 45691]

48 minutes ago, troph said:

Glass and aluminum bother me a lot less because I’ve assumed recycling is pretty well dialed in on those. 

Yep and we've been lied to for almost 40 years about the recycleability (a word like that) of plastic.  Just straight lies from corporations.  They should be sued into oblivion.

[Jiggy-Z 3432]

2 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

Years ago I attended a plastics & composites conference in Orlando.  (I was trying to find vendors who might mass-produce a complicated fiberglass part.)  One company had an entire working bottle line set up, manufacturing 12 oz biodegradable bottles on site.  They had 4 or 5 local craft brews they were giving away.  This line must have been 20 yards wide by 40 yards long, it was awesome.

I can only assume the cost per part was so high that no actual beverage company would move in that direction.  

[WhatTheBuck 28788]

On 3/15/2024 at 12:43 PM, troph said:

I watched one of those survival shows guys and gals left in remote Alaska for like 90 days all alone, longest to survive wins $500k or something. 

It took only a month for humans to use our tool making ability to create disruption in an otherwise pristine environment. Fire pits, shit holes, make shift cabins, canoes, traps, none of it bad but the thing is human by products are like no other living creature. We don’t just trample the forest with our feet like an elephant we use, consume and destroy things like a fucking disease.

it was that show that crystallized what I’ve been thinking for a long while - humans are disgusting. 

We created dogs out of wolves who scavenged our ancient refuse dumps though, so we’ve got that going for us. 

[Biff Tannen 45691]

3 hours ago, BeardIP said:

On one hand you have this (BAD): https://www.salon.com/2024/02/23/plastic-experts-say-recycling-is-a-scam-should-we-even-do-it-anymore/

On the other hand, I read today that Coca Cola's 20 oz plastic bottles are now 100% made out of recycled plastic (GOOD): https://www.wbtv.com/2024/03/19/you-might-not-notice-change-these-new-coca-cola-bottles/

 

Imagine if they had started doing that 30 years ago instead of lying to us all.  Too little too late, imo.

[mchookem 16336]

On 3/15/2024 at 11:39 AM, troph said:

I think I reached my lifetime limit on therapy but if I were to return existential dread caused by climate change and human filth would be a top 3 reason. 

 

[troph 24852]

7 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

Imagine if they had started doing that 30 years ago instead of lying to us all.  Too little too late, imo.

Imo it’s not too late but cost can no longer be a factor. The only factor is energy consumption. Plastic, CO2, get rid of it. On CO2 - if the energy math can work - suck more CO2 out of the air than it takes to make the machine run - then if it takes $40T then well, we - the industrialized world - better start figuring it out. 

Edited March 21 by troph

[fattyflattie 4639]

17 minutes ago, troph said:

Imo it’s not too late but cost can no longer be a factor. The only factor is energy consumption. Plastic, CO2, get rid of it. On CO2 - if the energy math can work - suck more CO2 out of the air than it takes to make the machine run - then if it takes $40T then well, we - the industrialized world - better start figuring it out. 

I sold all my OXY waaaaaaay too soon. Womp 

[troph 24852]

8 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

I sold all my OXY waaaaaaay too soon. Womp 

I think they are doing the right good thing there are going to be some insanely rich people coming out of this if we can solve the CO2 vacuum systems technology. Money will become a non-issue. Honestly at this point giant vacuum systems is about the only way out. Just suck the CO2 out of the sky. A fucking technological slurpee straw with the noise effect and all. We are going to burn in our own natural air fryer if we don’t. 

Edited March 21 by troph

[Mdhorn 5970]

On 3/15/2024 at 11:30 AM, Biff Tannen said:

Every time I go to Costco, I see the millions of plastic containers for EVERYTHING and extrapolate that out in my brain as to how much of that inventory is replaced every day and how many Costcos there are and all the other big box stores and how many plastic water bottles  are used everyday and it is all just overwhelming and we are fucked.

Or when I go to Wholefoods and see a mound of individual potatoes wrapped in plastic.  

The way our recycling works is that if there's one piece of non recyclable plastic in the bin, then everything gets trashed.  At work, in many buildings, just watch the maintenance guys dump both the trash and recycle baskets all in the same bin at night.  Basically, if you don't stay on people, they won't do right.  Which is exactly why regulation is needed.  Greed is a crime by biblical standards, and a disease, especially when a few begin to rationalize poison for profit.  

[Bookman 4639]

5 hours ago, Mdhorn said:

The way our recycling works is that if there's one piece of non recyclable plastic in the bin, then everything gets trashed.  At work, in many buildings, just watch the maintenance guys dump both the trash and recycle baskets all in the same bin at night.  Basically, if you don't stay on people, they won't do right.  Which is exactly why regulation is needed.  Greed is a crime by biblical standards, and a disease, especially when a few begin to rationalize poison for profit.  

Why do you hate freedom? 

[jimmyjazz 45976]

6 hours ago, Mdhorn said:

The way our recycling works is that if there's one piece of non recyclable plastic in the bin, then everything gets trashed.  At work, in many buildings, just watch the maintenance guys dump both the trash and recycle baskets all in the same bin at night.  Basically, if you don't stay on people, they won't do right.  Which is exactly why regulation is needed.  Greed is a crime by biblical standards, and a disease, especially when a few begin to rationalize poison for profit.  

I recently read an estimate that ~ 10% of residential recycling materials are actually recycled, and ~ 90% just go to the landfill.  Great.  I would hope industrial recycling would have a much higher yield.

[Post Oak 20245]

I watched a doc on recycling in Germany.  Outside of Berlin I think.  It's a massive operation.  They have a drive up system.  Basically from there it's sorted into different dumpsters.  If they have furniture or electronics they have people to refurb it and resale it.  From there everything is cleaned and sorted and shipped to companies who can use it.  

I know this was just part of their overall recycling program but it was inspiring.  Plus they employee dozens and dozens of people. 

Makes me angry we don't have those types operations here.

[Biff Tannen 45691]

4 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

I recently read an estimate that ~ 10% of residential recycling materials are actually recycled, and ~ 90% just go to the landfill.  Great.  I would hope industrial recycling would have a much higher yield.

We've gone over this in this thread somewhere, but Austin is much higher.  Somewhere around 80%.  It all depends on how much each municipality gives a shit and what relationships they have with the companies that end up buying the material to recycle it.

[bolverk 29684]

NYTimes travel piece about trying to raft a drying Rio Grande in the Big Bend region.

 

How Do You Paddle a Disappearing River?
Canoeing the Rio Grande near Big Bend National Park can be magical. But as the river dries, it’s getting harder to find where a boat will actually float.

I had barely unbuckled my seatbelt and was already wondering if I had driven six hours across Texas for nothing. A once-in-a-lifetime river adventure had seemingly evaporated with some disappointing news.

It was the promise of a four-day, 33-mile canoe journey in Big Bend National Park, snaking through awe-inspiring canyons on a mighty river, that had lured me across the state. My partner’s brother, Michael Stangl, an occasional guide with Hidden Dagger Adventures, had offered to take me on the Rio Grande, one of the country’s longest rivers, which stretches from central Colorado to the Gulf of Mexico. I had only previously visited Big Bend on foot, and I was excited to see it from the water.

The moment I pulled into Michael’s driveway in Alpine, Texas, after driving there from Austin last April, he told me: We wouldn’t be going through the park anymore.

 

Free link that's worth the click just for the photographs alone: 

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/22/travel/texas-big-bend-rio-grande-boat.html?ugrp=m&unlocked_article_code=1.fU0.3T0t.w_1KA_kLYDLx&smid=url-share

[brakeman 28375]

cheap and clean energy.

[Biff Tannen 45691]

1 hour ago, brakeman said:

cheap and clean energy.

I trained to become a solar installer in 2010 and it was known then that the price was going to continue to plummet.  I'm so glad the price is no longer a rational argument.