Joe Biden 2022: Enter Dark Brandon

[Longhorn_Fan68 33874]

5 minutes ago, WBT said:

Speculation based on simple supply/demand fundamentals is disinformation?  

Loan forgiveness would be a stimulus/liquidity injection.

so it's just speculation? no real data to back it up? so yeah, disinformation. it's the fucking definition.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Longhorn_Fan68

[Fudge Nuggets 19206]

33 minutes ago, Zeus said:

If they forgave student loans tons more people would be racking as much student loan debt as possible with no intention of paying it back thinking oh well the taxpayer will just have to foot the bill again.

Or the banks could do their fucking jobs and risk assess the likelihood of a loan getting paid back before forking over the cash. 

[workswithseed 2112]

2 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

so it's just speculation? no real data to back it up? so yeah, disinformation. it's the fucking definition.

Fucking lol. I didn't know speculation was disinfo. 

 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

6 minutes ago, Foosters said:

I've paid over 75k in student loan payments and my principal has gone up 35k over the last 8 years. Luckily, I've got PSLF, so should be good. 

Was there some sort of breach of the terms and condition of the loan or are they being applied in the manner stated in the loan documents?

[Longhorn_Fan68 33874]

nm, not worth it

Edited April 28, 2022 by Longhorn_Fan68

[workswithseed 2112]

1 minute ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

you just proved my point, dipshit

Wow, maybe try harder. You're missing intent. Speculation with intent is disinfo not just speculation.

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

12 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

so it's just speculation? no real data to back it up? so yeah, disinformation. it's the fucking definition.

You’re such a fucking putz.
 

It’s direct stimulus. Your student loan balance goes away and you have x number of $ available to spend monthly that you used to send to the federal govt. also long term you no longer have that debt on your balance sheet. Would potentially free you up to receive other credit to be used for consumption for other things. That’s creation of more money. 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Immaculate Vibes

[Longhorn_Fan68 33874]

3 minutes ago, Immaculate Vibes said:

You’re such a fucking putz.
 

It’s direct stimulus. Your student loan balance goes away and you have x number of $ available to spend monthly that you used to send to the federal govt. also long term you no longer have that debt on your balance sheet. Would potentially free you up to receive other credit to be used for consumption for other things. That’s creation of more money. 

yup, I know all of that. please continue and tell me how that will be in inflation driver. you're almost there!

 

edit: you added that last line as I responded. it's not creation of money. WAY wrong on that.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Longhorn_Fan68

[Bullneck 19168]

If you guys are so worried about taxpayers getting cheated why not just make sure billionaires and corporations pay their share?  

Nah, that ain't happening.

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

12 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

yup, I know all of that. please continue and tell me how that will be in inflation driver. you're almost there!

 

edit: you added that last line as I responded. it's not creation of money. WAY wrong on that.

Banks create money when they create credit. If millions of people are opened up to more opportunities for new credit then there will be money creation. 
 

Also if you have $200/month you spend on federal student loan payments that you can now spend that is essentially like the government now direct depositing you $200 a month. Stimulus. 
 

Not arguing on the morality or merits of the policy, just stating what it is. And also countering your dumbfuck cries of “disinformation?!!!?!”

Edited April 28, 2022 by Immaculate Vibes

[workswithseed 2112]

23 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

nm, not worth it

Got proven wrong, so you say it ain't worth it. Okay.

[Foosters 17858]

29 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Was there some sort of breach of the terms and condition of the loan or are they being applied in the manner stated in the loan documents?

No, I'm on an income driven repayment plan. In order to qualify for PLSF, you had to be on a qualifying payment plan, one of which is Income Driven. Based on our combined income (probably should have filed separately) my monthly payments are over $1,200. When I first started working, income was lower so they were around $750 a month. I had multiple federally subsidized loans with rates ranging from 6.5% to 8%+, iirc. Total original loan was 151k. Just checked my portal and I was off in my original numbers. Balance is now 196k. I've repaid 64k since origination, not 75.

I'm not complaining btw. I entered the deal knowing I'd be applying for PLSF in 10 years so I intentionally minimized my payments. I only offer my experience to illustrate how the principal can balloon. My only concern has always been they'd try and do away with PLSF. Although not sure that would survive a court challenge even if a hypothetical administration attempted to revoke.

Also, refi is not an option for me as doing so renders one ineligible for PLSF, fwiw.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Foosters

[Longhorn_Fan68 33874]

2 minutes ago, Immaculate Vibes said:

Banks create money when they create credit. If millions of people are opened up to more opportunities for new credit then there will be money creation. 
 

Also if you have $200/month you spend on federal student loan payments that you can now spend that is essentially like the government now direct depositing you $200 a month. Stimulus. 
 

Not arguing on the morality or merits of the policy, just stating what it is. And also countering your dumbfuck cries of “disinformation?!!!?!”

jfc, reading comprehension much? I asked for evidence of the claim, stating no evidence leads me to conclude the claim is disinformation. that's how the world works. you make a claim, you back it the fuck up, or it's a lie. why is this so hard for you?

 

1 minute ago, workswithseed said:

Got proven wrong, so you say it ain't worth it. Okay.

lol you haven't proven shit

[High Plains Drifter 11050]

3 hours ago, Eastwood said:

I can appreciate the equity argument that blanket forgiveness today is unfair and does not address the injustice done to those who sacrificed to pay off their student loans in the past, but the system is, was, and forever has been absolutely broken. Kids who need a co-signer for a cell phone can turn around and borrow 5 figures worth of high interest loans a semester. Madness.

I would support moving all interest rates to zero and taking repayment off of a timeline. Have a minimum payment of $100 a month for everyone and pay the rest over time at a pace of your choosing or kick the can down the road until they are taking it out of your estate when you die.

The reality is that there is no truly “fair” way to do this. There are people who put themselves through absolute hell to pay off those loans. True sacrifice. I get that. But that doesn’t mean we keep letting people financially drown. And I understand that people don’t want to pay for something for which they will see no benefit. Of course I understand it. I’m a taxpayer who is paying into a social security system that I will likely never see a dime from because the money will be gone by the time I’m eligible. But thousands of dollars of my money flies out the window and into the pockets of seniors every year. Seniors who benefited from the most financially stable and arguably the most financially equitable period in human history. But it also finds its way into the pockets of seniors who truly need it and that’s the point of the system.

Forgive some, fix the rest, and make sure that the system undergoes a massive overhaul that prevents it from happening again.

 

Agree 100%.

nothing, literally nothing, is going to be 100% "fair" to everybody. Social Security is not 100% fair to everybody. Our tax system is not 100% fair to everybody. Speeding tickets are not 100% fair to everybody. If you are against loan forgiveness because its not 100% fair to everybody, you are a concern troll.

 

edit: @fattyflattie negged for "leeches".

 

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by High Plains Drifter

[fattyflattie 4639]

2 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

edit: @fattyflattie negged for "leeches".

Please provide a name for people who would like all of their I’ll advised investments to be paid for by someone else.  Another way to put it, someone who takes and benefits, but is not interested in fulfilling their agreed upon part. Someone who would rather spread their financial burden amongst their fellow citizens, the vast majority who didn’t benefit from the same education, instead of sacrificing a bit and handling it themselves. 

[High Plains Drifter 11050]

5 hours ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

I haven't really looked into the specifics, but as an asshole moderate, I'd probably prefer to have a system where we can have claims that go through a government agency (Dept of Education) much like an EEOC claim where a borrower establishes that they somehow were wronged in a specified way and then are then awarded dept forgiveness if they reach a certain burden of proof.  After that, they can then pursue a claim in court or class action if the agency denies them.

If we want to just cut checks, then I'd also provide a check to anyone who took out a student loan during the period as well, based on the amount of dept forgiveness.  For instance, if the average dept forgiveness is $15K, I'd cut everyone who paid off their debt $7.5K.

 

 

So in other words, solve a huge bureaucratic mess by creating another huge bureaucracy.

 

"Bureaucracy increases at the rate necessary to keep up with the increasing bureaucracy."

- either Lincoln, Einstein, Shakespeare, or Jesus, probably

 

 

[Vegas64 676]

1 hour ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

how? I don't know shit about the issue, but this intuitively seems counter to what will likely happen. since you posited this, please provide some backup, otherwise this is disinformation

The article I was reading said this below, and had a hyperlink to the fuller argument, which I've copied and pasted here (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/06/business/economy/student-loan-pause-inflation.html) if you want to read up on why/how people are saying inflation can be impacted or exacerbated. Personally I thought homeboy had a good reply and it makes logical sense to me that the impact on inflation would be negligible because Americans are Americans, meaning they are already pumping their student loan payment into the economy instead of saving it and so this forgiveness would be baked into the inflation statistics already more or less:

A recent Morning Consult poll found that more than 60 percent of registered voters were in favor of some level of student debt cancellation. But despite Mr. Biden’s campaign promise, his advisers have been divided, three people with knowledge of the discussions said.

Some view debt cancellation as relief for critical constituencies, said the people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly. Others oppose it as bad policy or because they fear the economic effects of putting more money in consumers’ pockets when inflation is soaring.

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33874]

Just now, Vegas64 said:

The article I was reading said this below, and had a hyperlink to the fuller argument, which I've copied and pasted here (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/06/business/economy/student-loan-pause-inflation.html) if you want to read up on why/how people are saying inflation can be impacted or exacerbated. Personally I thought homeboy had a good reply and it makes logical sense to me that the impact on inflation would be negligible because Americans are Americans, meaning they are already pumping their student loan payment into the economy instead of saving it and so this forgiveness would be baked into the inflation statistics already more or less:

A recent Morning Consult poll found that more than 60 percent of registered voters were in favor of some level of student debt cancellation. But despite Mr. Biden’s campaign promise, his advisers have been divided, three people with knowledge of the discussions said.

Some view debt cancellation as relief for critical constituencies, said the people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly. Others oppose it as bad policy or because they fear the economic effects of putting more money in consumers’ pockets when inflation is soaring.

 

see? this is how it's done. thank you.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33874]

1 minute ago, Vegas64 said:

The article I was reading said this below, and had a hyperlink to the fuller argument, which I've copied and pasted here (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/06/business/economy/student-loan-pause-inflation.html) if you want to read up on why/how people are saying inflation can be impacted or exacerbated. Personally I thought homeboy had a good reply and it makes logical sense to me that the impact on inflation would be negligible because Americans are Americans, meaning they are already pumping their student loan payment into the economy instead of saving it and so this forgiveness would be baked into the inflation statistics already more or less:

A recent Morning Consult poll found that more than 60 percent of registered voters were in favor of some level of student debt cancellation. But despite Mr. Biden’s campaign promise, his advisers have been divided, three people with knowledge of the discussions said.

Some view debt cancellation as relief for critical constituencies, said the people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly. Others oppose it as bad policy or because they fear the economic effects of putting more money in consumers’ pockets when inflation is soaring.

 

that's an interesting point. if people are already struggling and having to choose, they are likely skipping loan payments for shit like, I dunno, food. but an almost incalculable metric would be the positive mental investment we'd be making by giving a bunch of people a little breathing room. 

[High Plains Drifter 11050]

4 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Please provide a name for people who would like all of their I’ll advised investments to be paid for by someone else.  Another way to put it, someone who takes and benefits, but is not interested in fulfilling their agreed upon part. Someone who would rather spread their financial burden amongst their fellow citizens, the vast majority who didn’t benefit from the same education, instead of sacrificing a bit and handling it themselves. 

 

I guess I should have said "negged for implying that all student loan borrowers are leeches"

[fattyflattie 4639]

Just now, High Plains Drifter said:

 

I guess I should have said "negged for implying that all student loan borrowers are leeches"

Why would I imply that? Me and the wife both had student loans. I just paid them back when I got out of school. You know, like you do with auto loans, mortgage loans, personal loans, etc.  Because no one is trying to buy your vote by paying those off, people repay them. Like I said upthread, we provide free college in this country. But it requires a bit of sacrifice, and getting your debt forgiven in exchange for a vote is much, much simpler. 

[Zeus 6093]

1 hour ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

so it's just speculation? no real data to back it up? so yeah, disinformation. it's the fucking definition.

 

[Satchel 6938]

I may be naive and idealistic but I don’t think a person who desires a college education should have to borrow large sums of money to get one. I also don’t think retirees should have to take out a loan to get necessary dental work done. 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33874]

2 minutes ago, Satchel said:

I may be naive and idealistic but I don’t think a person who desires a college education should have to borrow large sums of money to get one. I also don’t think retirees should have to take out a loan to get necessary dental work done. 

[F250 28780]

2 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

I do see why those who paid their loans would feel gypped. I'm not sure how to address that, but I don't think that issue should stop the policy.

 

I agree with this statement. This is an emotional response and isn't relevant to policy that attempts to fix an existing problem or pave the way to an improved system. Basically ones personal feelings are irrelevant.

I say this as someone that paid off my previous wife's student loan and then gave her half my stuff.

 

[workswithseed 2112]

34 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

 

lol you haven't proven shit

Show me how disinfo is just speculation then. 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33874]

2 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

Show me how disinfo is just speculation then. 

nah, because I never claimed it was. you made that assertion. YOU back it up.

besides, the actual person I was addressing came back with an article and actual information to back up their claim. you came at me with memes and bullshit. head back to the kiddie table - the adults are talking again.

[Sawbonz 27578]

6 minutes ago, Satchel said:

I may be naive and idealistic but I don’t think a person who desires a college education should have to borrow large sums of money to get one. I also don’t think retirees should have to take out a loan to get necessary dental work done. 

Some can. If they live in a larger metropolitan area they can go to the local community college for 2 years for their pre-recs then a public university to finish. If they take less than a full load in the fall and spring and go both summer sessions they can work close to full time finish a bachelor’s degree with no/minimal debt in 4 years (or close), especially if they are able to live with their parents. Take debt for post graduate training at your own peril

[The Original Greaser Bob 2841]

23 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

So in other words, solve a huge bureaucratic mess by creating another huge bureaucracy.

The first was a perceived benefit that was ill conceived.  It's not a problem because "it is bureaucratic".  (It arguably wasn't bureaucratic enough.)  The later provides a pretty standard administrative review of folks who want to have it which would follow standard administrative procedures similar to those related to the EEOC and state wage agencies. 

[workswithseed 2112]

1 hour ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

so it's just speculation? no real data to back it up? so yeah, disinformation. it's the fucking definition.

You said here that speculation is disinfo here, what meme? I brought you the actual definition, then you said you were too big to talk to me when you had nothing. 

[The Original Greaser Bob 2841]

17 minutes ago, Satchel said:

I may be naive and idealistic but I don’t think a person who desires a college education should have to borrow large sums of money to get one. I also don’t think retirees should have to take out a loan to get necessary dental work done. 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33874]

5 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

You said here that speculation is disinfo here, what meme? I brought you the actual definition, then you said you were too big to talk to me when you had nothing. 

If I told you that you won and gave you a gold star and a cookie would you go away?

[Sawbonz 27578]

NPR had an expert on back during the 2020 campaign talking about this and they said you could help the vast majority of people hurting the most by forgiving 10k. That is because they are the ones who never got their degree and are least able to pay it back. It is a terrible financial drag on them as individuals as well as on the economy.

As I mentioned I would be OK with 40K. But doing the first 10K for all and then means testing up to another 50K for say those 2 x poverty and letting everyone else refi to 4% would be a pretty good deal. The big issue is how to keep it from happening all over again

Also re inflation why would loan forgiveness trigger inflation any more than TARP? Biden’s plan for 10K each would be half the amt spent on TARP

[RomaVicta 29929]

13 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

Show me how disinfo is just speculation then. 

Some around here throw out what is either an honest speculation or a cynical attempt to muddy an issue or falsely discredit a person or idea.

The cynical ones demand that their unsupported speculation be proved wrong before they retreat to, "hey, I was only speculating," upon being slaughtered by facts.

Use of speculation can definitely be part of a disinformation campaign. 

Example:

Take a quote from AOC where she mentions only two of the three branches of government. Speculate the dumb bitch doesn't even know all three branches. All aboard the hate engine for some robust ridicule and harrumphing.

Someone plays entire quote including question where it's clear she didn't really need to name the missing branch in the actual exchange. The liars claim they wuz mislead but AOC is still a dumb bitch.

Voila! Disinformation produced to solidify the lie-eaters and be ignored by those who manipulate the lie-eaters.

 

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

40 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

see? this is how it's done. thank you.

Wait, paywall in the way. What was the proof that caused you to accept that large scale loan forgiveness could be inflationary? The fact that Biden admin is worried about it? 

[clapclapclap 9000]

 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

13 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

NPR had an expert on back during the 2020 campaign talking about this and they said you could help the vast majority of people hurting the most by forgiving 10k. That is because they are the ones who never got their degree and are least able to pay it back. It is a terrible financial drag on them as individuals as well as on the economy.

As I mentioned I would be OK with 40K. But doing the first 10K for all and then means testing up to another 50K for say those 2 x poverty and letting everyone else refi to 4% would be a pretty good deal. The big issue is how to keep it from happening all over again

Also re inflation why would loan forgiveness trigger inflation any more than TARP? Biden’s plan for 10K each would be half the amt spent on TARP

TARP netted the federal treasury over 66 billion dollars.

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

10 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

 

Also re inflation why would loan forgiveness trigger inflation any more than TARP? Biden’s plan for 10K each would be half the amt spent on TARP

First of all I’m not even sure it will have a huge effect on inflation. But it should be inflationary to an extent. 
 

Tarp just bought distressed assets from banks. That didn’t guarantee more money into economy. This is a form of direct stimulus. 

[DaysOff 7951]

 
I agree with this statement. This is an emotional response and isn't relevant to policy that attempts to fix an existing problem or pave the way to an improved system. Basically ones personal feelings are irrelevant.
I say this as someone that paid off my previous wife's student loan and then gave her half my stuff.
 

Fairness is the enemy of progress. We saved and put 3 kids through college, but I'm all for this. Do it tonight grandpa Joe.

[workswithseed 2112]

36 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Some around here throw out what is either an honest speculation or a cynical attempt to muddy an issue or falsely discredit a person or idea.

The cynical ones demand that their unsupported speculation be proved wrong before they retreat to, "hey, I was only speculating," upon being slaughtered by facts.

Use of speculation can definitely be part of a disinformation campaign. 

Example:

Take a quote from AOC where she mentions only two of the three branches of government. Speculate the dumb bitch doesn't even know all three branches. All aboard the hate engine for some robust ridicule and harrumphing.

Someone plays entire quote including question where it's clear she didn't really need to name the missing branch in the actual exchange. The liars claim they wuz mislead but AOC is still a dumb bitch.

Voila! Disinformation produced to solidify the lie-eaters and be ignored by those who manipulate the lie-eaters.

 

With disinformation, you need intent. You can speculate on disinformation, but that is ignorance that's not intentional. 

[Sawbonz 27578]

34 minutes ago, Immaculate Vibes said:

 

Tarp just bought distressed assets from banks. That didn’t guarantee more money into economy. This is a form of direct stimulus. 

Where did the money come from? 

[workswithseed 2112]

15 minutes ago, DaysOff said:

Fairness is the enemy of progress. We saved and put 3 kids through college, but I'm all for this. Do it tonight grandpa Joe.

This sounds like consequentialism, and that thinking can lead to dicey directions.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33874]

2 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

With disinformation, you need intent. You can speculate on disinformation, but that is ignorance that's not intentional. 

you keep saying this, but no you fucking don't. someone can be disseminating disinformation and not even fucking know it. it doesn't make the claim true just because they're not intending to deceive. you're out of your element here. but keep fucking that chicken, farmer dan.

[workswithseed 2112]

3 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

you keep saying this, but no you fucking don't. someone can be disseminating disinformation and not even fucking know it. it doesn't make the claim true just because they're not intending to deceive. you're out of your element here. but keep fucking that chicken, farmer dan.

No, you started with speculating is disinfect. That's where started, you told me that speculation is disinfo. I'm saying that just speculation is not. That's why we're here.

[Sawbonz 27578]

39 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

TARP netted the federal treasury over 66 billion dollars.

I recall that it broke even or perhaps lost a little bit adjusted for inflation by the time it was all paid back but regardless it was money well spent. The people that would be benefiting from this forgiveness wouldn’t be hoarding that money in savings accounts (although they probably should). It will be immediately circulating back through the economy which again will be money well spent

[Sawbonz 27578]

From CBO

Quote

TARP recovered funds totalling $441.7 billion from $426.4 billion invested, earning a $15.3 billion profit or an annualized rate of return of 0.6% and perhaps a loss when adjusted for inflation

 

[Homercles 10206]

What the hell are rates for student loans recently?  Back in 2002 when I graduated, my rate was like 1.9% or something as I recall…prime was 4.5%-5%.  Balance was like $12k. 
 

I was making $13 an hour and paid it down in like 5 years.  Granted it was OSU, not really a bastion of expensive higher education, but a few hundred a month took care of it.  
 

Pretty sure not everyone with crushing loans are liberal basket weaving arts degrees.  Feels like the system has broken the last twenty years.  

[bonnieblue 542]

19 minutes ago, Homercles said:

What the hell are rates for student loans recently?  Back in 2002 when I graduated, my rate was like 1.9% or something as I recall…prime was 4.5%-5%.  Balance was like $12k. 
 

I was making $13 an hour and paid it down in like 5 years.  Granted it was OSU, not really a bastion of expensive higher education, but a few hundred a month took care of it.  
 

Pretty sure not everyone with crushing loans are liberal basket weaving arts degrees.  Feels like the system has broken the last twenty years.  

My rates for law school were split between 6.7/7.8. I had a full ride for undergrad, half ride for law school and still had 100k in loans. I paid them off aggressively, but I don’t hold any ill will towards others who are able to get them cancelled. It shouldn’t cost so much for anyone to pursue higher education, much less graduate degrees, particularly as they are pre reqs for the overwhelming majority of jobs (we can’t all be plumbers).

Just like with the homeless, the uninsured and the elderly, we pay for all these people and their choices (or lack thereof) one way or another. Often times it’s the proactive solutions that are ultimately the cheapest (and will pay dividends down the road) and yet so many people insist on being fairness or morality scolds. It’s bizarre.

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33874]

3 minutes ago, bonnieblue said:

My rates for law school were split between 6.7/7.8. I had a full ride for undergrad, half ride for law school and still had 100k in loans. I paid them off aggressively, but I don’t hold any ill will towards others who are able to get them cancelled. It shouldn’t cost so much for anyone to pursue higher education, much less graduate degrees, particularly as they are pre reqs for the overwhelming majority of jobs (we can’t all be plumbers).

Just like with the homeless, the uninsured and the elderly, we pay for all these people and their choices (or lack thereof) one way or another. Often times it’s the proactive solutions that are ultimately the cheapest (and will pay dividends down the road) and yet so many people insist on being fairness or morality scolds. It’s bizarre.

 

this is a really well thought-out and honest post. which begs the question, are you in the right place? 🤣

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

59 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

you keep saying this, but no you fucking don't. someone can be disseminating disinformation and not even fucking know it. it doesn't make the claim true just because they're not intending to deceive. you're out of your element here. but keep fucking that chicken, farmer dan.

Hoo boy. This is pretty rich coming just after our recent exchange.