Joe Biden 2022: Enter Dark Brandon

[Satchel 6938]

3 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

It’s predatory to enter a contract for a low interest loan and expect the other side to adhere to the terms.  

The borrower should take a page from Trump’s playbook. As part of the plan to default, sue the lender.

[fattyflattie 4639]

3 minutes ago, Satchel said:

Isn’t that what politicians do for rich people? 

They use community tax dollars to pay off their student loans?  Not likely 

[Satchel 6938]

Just now, Johnny Sack said:

No. The top 20 percent are the only ones who pay anything net of government transfers.  It’s a nice lie democrats convince otherwise.  

Didn’t the 2 trillion dollar Trump tax cut for the rich result in their support for him?

[Anastasis 23475]

16 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

A favorite distraction used by the Johnny types in this discussion. Such “useless” degrees make up a very small fraction of student loan debt. The vast majority of it, and of the student loan debt that is keeping millions of people from getting ahead, is for legit, career-advancing degrees.

Would sincerely like to see some data on this. 

 

Here is some data on median debt by major, which does not take into account the distribution of major and educational level. 

https://educationdata.org/student-loan-debt-by-major

 

Like legit what are these people thinking...

 

And this one strikes a little too close to home. These are stupid fucking numbers. 

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by Anastasis

[Vegas64 676]

Look. Nobody, beyond theory, would be upset or mad at:

1) reform that allows student loans to be discharged by traditional bankruptcy and

2) $10k loan forgiveness for all who need or want it

This is as bipartisan as it’s gonna get so let’s do it and move on to legalizing weed.

[fattyflattie 4639]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Would sincerely like to see some data on this. 

 

Here is some data on median debt by major, which does not take into account the distribution of major and educational level. 

https://educationdata.org/student-loan-debt-by-major

 

Like legit what are these people thinking...

 

And this one strikes a little to close to home. These are stupid fucking numbers. 

 

I’m going to guess one of the largest groups is women who had kids in late 20’s/early 30’s and decided they were done with work until the kids are older. Got 5-7 years of work out of the degree, just enough to get that first burnout, and said fuck this rat race. Now looking at 50-75k in loans and how unfair it all is. 

[Anastasis 23475]

Just now, fattyflattie said:

I’m going to guess one of the largest groups is women who had kids in late 20’s/early 30’s and decided they were done with work until the kids are older. Got 5-7 years of work out of the degree, just enough to get that first burnout, and said fuck this rat race. Now looking at 50-75k in loans and how unfair it all is. 

Oh the joys of paying off substantial student loan debt for graduate level degrees that never realize their return on investment. 

But dat ass. 

 

In all seriousness, the benefits of being able to have at least one parent highly engaged and focused on the whole scene as the kids matriculate is worth it, so you suck it up and deal. 

[Sawbonz 27578]

43 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

The people that are buried and suffocating under student loan debt laugh in your direction. I mean shit, I still sit on ~20k in student loan debt which I am absolutely in no rush to pay off because I locked in stupid low rates ca. 2004-5. I could and would pay it off tomorrow without missing a beat if it made financial sense, but at 1.625 and inflation what it is, that will probably never make sense. We paid off all my SOs loans because they were not as favorably positioned. The people suffocating under student loan debt have multiples more than that (and it is not an insignificant number) and/or significantly lower earning opportunity because they made very bad decisions and got fucked by a system that was doling out dough to feed the administrative tower, in a situation with perverse incentives.  

No doubt. But the most good with the least outlay can be done with the 10k. I’m all for more but just look at the cries of inflation etc on this thread with the suggestion of that small amount 
 

Hell anyway if johnny sack can overcome being born into a wealthy family, and fight and scratch to the top all on his own why do they really even need help? He probably bagged groceries for minimum wage and paid pops rent and kicked in for groceries in high school before tackling undergrad and law school fees all by his lonesome

[TwiceHorn 31497]

16 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Would sincerely like to see some data on this. 

 

Here is some data on median debt by major, which does not take into account the distribution of major and educational level. 

https://educationdata.org/student-loan-debt-by-major

 

Like legit what are these people thinking...

 

And this one strikes a little too close to home. These are stupid fucking numbers. 

 

I think the first table is skewed by for-profit colleges and trade schools.

Some other info, that indicates that 10k is a substantial whack for the average indebted student:

Report Highlights.The average student loan debt, currently $37,693, did not grow as much in value 2020 as it has in previous years. Private student loan debt grew at a much faster rate than federal debt.

• The average federal student loan debt is $36,510 per borrower.
• Private student loan debt averages $54,921 per borrower.
• The average student borrows over $30,000 to pursue a bachelor’s degree.
• A total of 45.3 million borrowers have student loan debt; 95% of them have federal loan debt.
• 20 years after entering school, half of student borrowers still owe $20,000 each on outstanding loan balanceshttps://educationdata.org/average-student-loan-debt

[Sawbonz 27578]

30 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Agreed. So with great unemployment numbers, what’s the issue paying the loans back? Or is this so that other things such as houses can be purchased?   Failing to see how this is different than any other loan, ever, other than politicians want to pay this one off in exchange for your vote 

The biggest difference is the debt can’t be discharged in bankruptcy. And that is a huge problem

[Muny_Tex 293]

Predictable viewpoints/discussions here for the most part, but want to add a couple points that I don’t think have been addressed:

Root cause behind a LOT of these exorbitant balances is students ability to “over-borrow” beyond rate of tuition/fees and pocket all residual funds without any oversight of final usage. In addition to plenty of kids who parlayed these residual funds into pricey residences and new car payments, I know plenty of others who deliberately borrowed “the max” for frivolous purposes like spring breaks, “study abroad”, post-grad vacations, and even designer clothes/jewelry/purses.

Even for kids without nefarious intent, how many of them had the sense/judgment/discipline at age 19 to just “give back” something like a $4,300 refund/overage check when they were told it’s entirely their choice if they want to keep it and not to worry because it’s already “fully covered” under their loan application that they won’t have to make payments on til after school ends and they’re making the big bucks as adults…IMO that is some of the worst predatory shit of all.

By enabling this practice with zero accountability (it was, and to my knowledge still is 1000% legal for all loan recipients) the feds enabled colleges to further skyrocket tuition prices by eliminating all competing market forces that would’ve otherwise made the “total cost of attendance” a non-starter for most middle-low income kids (with no credit and no jobs) if they had to apply for personal loans under conventional “score & income based” standards to cover housing, transport, food, clothing, etc

Lastly, colleges should be fucking ashamed of themselves for dismantling and/or discarding the student work-study programs into the embarrassment they’ve become today. Mutual costs could be reduced dramatically by a fair exchange of labor/services for huge variety of on-campus employment roles…but instead they choose to condition kids from day 1 that vast majority of “icky” jobs are beneath them and to act as if they are resort guests for the next 4 years….and then we wonder why they enter the workforce with warped expectations, shit attitudes, and also treat hourly workers like trash when encountering them in public.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Of

[TwiceHorn 31497]

22 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

I’m going to guess one of the largest groups is women who had kids in late 20’s/early 30’s and decided they were done with work

As far as I know, these hardly exist anymore outside the top 10%.

Edited April 29, 2022 by TwiceHorn

[Anastasis 23475]

4 minutes ago, Muny_Tex said:

Root cause behind a LOT of these exorbitant balances is students ability to “over-borrow” beyond rate of tuition/fees and pocket all residual funds without any oversight of final usage.

 

Hey fuck off, I needed a pocket full of beer money and knew that I would be good for it on the back end. 

[Anastasis 23475]

3 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

As far as I know, these hardly exist anymore outside the top 10%.

Societal death spiral, imo. 

[Sawbonz 27578]

28 minutes ago, Satchel said:

Didn’t the 2 trillion dollar Trump tax cut for the rich result in their support for him?

Yeah we’ll see that’s different. Just like TARP although he can’t explain how

[fattyflattie 4639]

27 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

In all seriousness, the benefits of being able to have at least one parent highly engaged and focused on the whole scene as the kids matriculate is worth it, so you suck it up and deal. 

Not arguing that, just seems to be an extremely common theme in the mom groups around here. SMU/TCU/Baylor/aggy degree hanging in the home office and drinking wine whilst the kids are at school. 
 

18 minutes ago, Muny_Tex said:

the feds enabled colleges to further skyrocket tuition prices by eliminating all competing market forces that would’ve otherwise made the “total cost of attendance” a non-starter for most middle-low income kids (with no credit and no jobs)

I know the easy to obtain student loans absolutely attributed to this, but I’m not certain it’s completely to blame. Every year, 10000+ kids are going to be turned down to respectable state schools. Many of those have the means. If it was market driven, shitloads would be willing to pay 3x what they pay now to attend.  There’s only so many seats at the table, after all. 

Edited April 29, 2022 by fattyflattie

[Anastasis 23475]

4 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Not arguing that, just seems to be an extremely common theme in the mom groups around here. SMU/TCU/Baylor/aggy degree hanging in the home office and drinking wine whilst the kids are at school. 

[workswithseed 2112]

44 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

And have a sugar baby on the side.

[StassneyHorn 6616]

When I’m President, and all of your stupid fucking kids are applying for college loans, I’m going to reject them. With that rejection letter, they will get another letter of auto admission to the community college in there dream university’s same exact town, and can re-apply after after 60 credit hours completed with a 3.0. They will go to the same bars, live in the same apartments, have sex with the same losers, make the same mistakes and have the same hangovers the first two years for 50k less than whatever shitheel bank says the COL is.

? to mods: can I change my name to ScottsdaleHorn? I’m drunk and moved last week. Still planning on voter-frauding the state

[Goofyboy 3293]

Agreed. So with great unemployment numbers, what’s the issue paying the loans back? Or is this so that other things such as houses can be purchased?   Failing to see how this is different than any other loan, ever, other than politicians want to pay this one off in exchange for your vote 

This is different from any other loan because you can’t claim bankruptcy. In what world can an 18 year old get a loan for a house, but can easily be handed a loan for $50 - $200k that they HAVE TO pay back by law. That’s the difference. Banks would not loan that kind of money unless there was zero risk.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Won’t be near as many loans made if you can discharge them.   

[Goofyboy 3293]

Won’t be near as many loans made if you can discharge them.   

No shit. That’s kinda the point. Those loans never should have been made.

[Sawbonz 27578]

9 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

Or instead keep doing what they do while white liberals who ran up $300k in debt “earning” their 16th century Belgian transgender dance theory degrees so they can pour coffee or have some DEI bullshit career teaching and tweeting about grievances  Or any degree styled ______ Studies.  

Like the welfare queens all driving caddys right? 🙄

[Goofyboy 3293]

Like the welfare queens all driving caddys right?

Anything that fits his small world view narrative.

[Willfully Horn 8031]

11 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

I believe you, and I try that. But the first several “others” are my family. I’m this scenario, I get fucked twice. Once when I missed out on several hundred thousand in opportunity gone, and secondly when I pay for this.  So the life I’m living to serve “others” just got that much more difficult. And I know we’re all rich here and whatnot, but an extra few hundred in the account wouldn’t hurt.  

A family man is not to be criticized. Still, family is neither ‘other’ nor neighbor.

[High Plains Drifter 11050]

9 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think the first table is skewed by for-profit colleges and trade schools.

Some other info, that indicates that 10k is a substantial whack for the average indebted student:

Report Highlights.The average student loan debt, currently $37,693, did not grow as much in value 2020 as it has in previous years. Private student loan debt grew at a much faster rate than federal debt.

• The average federal student loan debt is $36,510 per borrower.
• Private student loan debt averages $54,921 per borrower.
• The average student borrows over $30,000 to pursue a bachelor’s degree.
• A total of 45.3 million borrowers have student loan debt; 95% of them have federal loan debt.
• 20 years after entering school, half of student borrowers still owe $20,000 each on outstanding loan balanceshttps://educationdata.org/average-student-loan-debt

 

4th bullet (bold)  That is a shit load of Belgian transgender dance studies degrees.

3rd bullet (italics)  30 large for a Belgian transgender dance studies degree seems like a lot. Is that a lot?

 

 

[DaysOff 7951]

7 hours ago, StassneyHorn said:

When I’m President, and all of your stupid fucking kids are applying for college loans, I’m going to reject them. With that rejection letter, they will get another letter of auto admission to the community college in there dream university’s same exact town, and can re-apply after after 60 credit hours completed with a 3.0. They will go to the same bars, live in the same apartments, have sex with the same losers, make the same mistakes and have the same hangovers the first two years for 50k less than whatever shitheel bank says the COL is.

? to mods: can I change my name to ScottsdaleHorn? I’m drunk and moved last week. Still planning on voter-frauding the state

 

Gig em ags.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

1 hour ago, Goofyboy said:

No shit. That’s kinda the point. Those loans never should have been made.

Fine with me.  Too many people go to college.  Should be on a going forward basis though.

[wildcat09 29355]

10 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Would sincerely like to see some data on this. 

You rang?

Quote

We really don't. The number of people graduating with "bullshit degrees" (as you'd characterize them) are a fairly small percentage of total college graduates. Two seconds on Google turned up this list of the most popular majors. Of the top 25, I'd guess maybe you'd consider anthropology and sociology bullshit, but that comes in at 10. After that, you'd probably consider art at 18 bullshit, foreign languages at 21 bullshit, design at 22 bullshit. But all combined those barely exceed psychology at 3 and are less than half of the number of business majors. And as a percentage of total degrees, you can add all the lower "bullshit" degrees that each award a few thousand per year and we're still talking about a very small percentage of total degrees awarded. 

You can find different lists that rank things a little differently (apparently due to different classifications for certain majors), but you'll see pretty much the same thing using any list you look at. The common boomer "kids these days all go to college for bullshit degrees and graduate with no skills" take is basically nonsense based on a couple of anecdotes from their friends bitching about their kids. 

There's plenty of factors contributing significantly to runaway costs of higher education. "Everyone is paying $200k for bullshit degrees" isn't one of them.

ETA: plain text copying removed the link: https://www.niche.com/blog/the-most-popular-college-majors/

Edited April 29, 2022 by wildcat09

[RomaVicta 29931]

13 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

A lot of people who want loans forgiven are self interested as fuck.

It is a horrible idea unless structural changes are made in student lending.  Too many people take out way, way too many loans for shitty, worthless degrees.

In our resume society, you can't get an interview without a college degree in something. In addition to this money grab by banks and colleges, you have a society increasingly (often needlessly) absolutely requiring a college degree for admittance to jobs that really don't require one. A person wanting to get anywhere has to play the fucking game and get exploited. 

You've got college grads (who could afford the cost) limiting employment to similar college grads. Might there be an argument that this could be descrimination? Why yes, it could.

 

12 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

No one forced anyone into a loan. 

I wonder how many hundreds of thousands (millions?) of kids across the county that didn’t attend college because they properly assessed the loan situation and it’s difficulties, feel about their choice now?  Or those they served with the GI Bill as a motivator. Guess they’ll just continue to shovel shit thinking about what might have been. I bet they’ll be so fucking excited to pay a bit extra so they can “raise all boats”. At least we’ll know how they’ll  vote. 

See above. College is just about mandatory. The loans are guaranteed (no risk to the bank no real reason to deny loans), with guaranteed funding, colleges raise tuitions. It's a vicious cycle: COLLEGE EDUCATION IS TOO EXPENSIVE. Focusing on borrowers is blaming the victim. Whether the loans are paid back or not, all the borrowers are victimized here.

12 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

It was not a wash when you consider it kept RE values artificially elevated (I bet you loved that) and prevented a true correction which did real damage to regular folks. Also all that added money to the system diluted out everyone’s purchase power. This will do no worse and close to 100% of that money will be spent, which helps create jobs and helps everyone rather than wall street

Sawbonz bringing the (gasp) broader view. Lives will be better. Businesses will benefit.  This isn't the way we would have chosen, but it seems to be the best way now. Government will be incented to look at the loan situation and address Sack's "structural changes to be made in student lending." Of course, the changes could beneit the banks (all collectively owned by poor people, of course) if one party is in power. If it's the other, there's a good chance those people kept out of the college system due to cost (either borrowing or paying up front) will have freer access.

11 hours ago, Vegas64 said:

The one thing I hadn’t thought of that Fatty brought up that rings sympathetic to me is not the ones who paid their loans off and don’t get a rebate but actually the ones who did the math and determined they couldn’t responsibly take out a $100k loan for an economics degree or signed up for the military for the free college after 4 years and might or might not have lost a leg or something. They might have missed out on $10-50k in help, in hindsight by being austere and responsible.

Agreed. They are also victims of the vicious cycle by being forced to forego the entry ticket to many jobs due to cost.

11 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

Or instead keep doing what they do while white liberals who ran up $300k in debt “earning” their 16th century Belgian transgender dance theory degrees so they can pour coffee or have some DEI bullshit career teaching and tweeting about grievances  Or any degree styled ______ Studies.  

The system requires a degree. Amid your hateful hyperbole, you name the problem. COST. In your largely narrow review, you do manage to keep including this element.

 

21 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Fine with me.  Too many people go to college.  Should be on a going forward basis though.

Yes, let's keep the poor out of the game. Again, a degree is necessary for entry to the game. Any degree. Because of that often unnecessary requirement, many are moved to pursue graduate degrees to distinguish themselves. 

My unsupported-by-research opinion? Graduate degrees became the new big business for colleges and banks. Huge money-maker.

Graduate degrees used to really mean something. A PhD was a rara avis. Now, they're all over the goddamn place. Cui bono? Follow the money.

COLLEGE EDUCATION IS TOO EXPENSIVE

Who is making all the money? 

Borrowers, all borrowers, are victims of those who bank the cash.

Thank you for your forbearance.

[jimmyjazz 45978]

9 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Again, a degree is necessary for entry to the game. Any degree.

Ironically, the Sacks of the world rail against "worthless" degrees when corporate America is coming around to the value of many of those majors -- history, literature, etc.  As it turns out, there are people outside the normal business circles of STEM/Finance/Marketing who can actually bring a different perspective to the table and create positive value.  

Huh.  Whodathunkit.

[fattyflattie 4639]

14 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Again, a degree is necessary for entry to the game. Any degree.

I approved over 300k in timesheets for my 42yo superintendent, who can't fucking spell maybe 60% of what he attempts.   7-8 years ago, he was a truck driver and not even in his current industry.  Fuck out of here with that bullshit.  Between him and his uneducated wife (works for a prison somewhere), they made more than everyone but 3 executives in my company.  The lowest paid guy on our crew is $27/hr straight time, and we keep them 60-80 hours a week.  That is the absolute lowest paid guy on the site, and he's bumping six figures BEFORE per-diem.  So please excuse me while I call bullshit all over EvErYoNe NeEdS A DeGrEe to even have a chance.  I would say the key is you actually have to get out there and WORK, but I see plenty holding up shovels so really, in many cases, you just have to show up.  And, we constantly deal with folk being poached for a few dollars here and there, so we are anything but high in the market. 

[Foosters 17858]

Do most of you encourage your children to be plumbers and truck drivers?

[Vegas64 676]

8 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Ironically, the Sacks of the world rail against "worthless" degrees when corporate America is coming around to the value of many of those majors -- history, literature, etc.  As it turns out, there are people outside the normal business circles of STEM/Finance/Marketing who can actually bring a different perspective to the table and create positive value.  

Huh.  Whodathunkit.

Also, at least in STEM/Tech, the perception has changed. People know that if you went to Stanford or Carnegie Mellon or something like that, then okay. But if you went to Texas State and got an economics or psychology degree, do you really need that to be an entry level marketing or sales or entry level analyst? Most tech and business skills are accreted through experience and "upskilling" as you get more experience, which happens on the job.

"Apple CEO Tim Cook even said in 2019 that about half of Apple's US employment last year was made up of people who did not have a four-year degree.  Google, Apple, and IBM are among the companies that don't require a college degree for certain positions, according to Glassdoor."

"Elon Musk said a college degree isn't required for a job at Tesla"

Granted with tech, you need foundational technical skills and knowledge, but nerds get that stuff tinkering and doing and as autodidactics anyways, they don't need Intro to Computer Science at big average and expensive state school. This is why if you can do bootcamps and certs and stuff you can get around having a degree.

[RomaVicta 29931]

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

Ironically, the Sacks of the world rail against "worthless" degrees when corporate America is coming around to the value of many of those majors -- history, literature, etc.  As it turns out, there are people outside the normal business circles of STEM/Finance/Marketing who can actually bring a different perspective to the table and create positive value.  

Huh.  Whodathunkit.

I worked for quite awhile in my degree area then decided to apply my skills in another field. I've spent years doing OJT in the new job. I wouldn't have got the chance nor had the skills had I not both gone to college and acquired a degree in an unrelated field.

I'm reading Dickens' Our Mutual Friend. It doesn't flow as well as other novels of his, but it has the usual keen observations. One Mr. Podsnap seems to have some of Sack's qualities.

Quote

Mr Podsnap was well to do, and stood very high in Mr Podsnap's
opinion. Beginning with a good inheritance, he had married a
good inheritance, and had thriven exceedingly in the Marine
Insurance way, and was quite satisfied. He never could make out
why everybody was not quite satisfied, and he felt conscious that
he set a brilliant social example in being particularly well satisfied
with most things, and, above all other things, with himself.

Mr Podsnap's world was not a very large world, morally; no, nor
even geographically: seeing that although his business was
sustained upon commerce with other countries, he considered other
countries, with that important reservation, a mistake, and of their
manners and customs would conclusively observe, 'Not English!'
when, PRESTO! with a flourish of the arm, and a flush of the face,
they were swept away.

Elsewhere, the world got up at eight,
shaved close at a quarter-past, breakfasted at nine, went to the City
at ten, came home at half-past five, and dined at seven. Mr
Podsnap's notions of the Arts in their integrity might have been
stated thus. Literature; large print, respectfully descriptive of
getting up at eight, shaving close at a quarter past, breakfasting at
nine, going to the City at ten, coming home at half-past five, and
dining at seven. Painting and Sculpture; models and portraits
representing Professors

Dickens knows the world so well. I've had trouble following a few times in this novel, but not a few pages go by before he brilliantly illuminates some aspect of life. I've thought that you could use David Copperfield as a bible one could reference as one does the actual Bible for insights into life. It's all there. 

As this is about education, I will add that I was not a literature student.  I came hesitatingly to Dickens, but the payoff has been huge.

[RomaVicta 29931]

4 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

I approved over 300k in timesheets for my 42yo superintendent, who can't fucking spell maybe 60% of what he attempts.   7-8 years ago, he was a truck driver and not even in his current industry.  Fuck out of here with that bullshit.  Between him and his uneducated wife (works for a prison somewhere), they made more than everyone but 3 executives in my company.  The lowest paid guy on our crew is $27/hr straight time, and we keep them 60-80 hours a week.  That is the absolute lowest paid guy on the site, and he's bumping six figures BEFORE per-diem.  So please excuse me while I call bullshit all over EvErYoNe NeEdS A DeGrEe to even have a chance.  I would say the key is you actually have to get out there and WORK, but I see plenty holding up shovels so really, in many cases, you just have to show up.  And, we constantly deal with folk being poached for a few dollars here and there, so we are anything but high in the market. 

The awesome power of anecdotal evidence. I stand ashamed of my "bullshit" and proceed to "fuck out of here."

Chastened.

[fattyflattie 4639]

1 minute ago, RomaVicta said:

The awesome power of anecdotal evidence. I stand ashamed of my "bullshit" and proceed to "fuck out of here."

Chastened.

Now imagine the millions of craft labor out there doing the same thing and weep for them, as they never got their foot in the door.  Or the plant hands that start over 6 figures and work alternating 3 and 4 day weeks.      Call it anecdotal, I'm certain you can find the backup. 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33874]

3 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

The awesome power of anecdotal evidence. I stand ashamed of my "bullshit" and proceed to "fuck out of here."

Chastened.

Are you appropriately humbled by this embarrassment and do you vow to change your evil ways?

[Vegas64 676]

2 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

The awesome power of anecdotal evidence. I stand ashamed of my "bullshit" and proceed to "fuck out of here."

Chastened.

To be fair you were being very absolutist with the "a degree is absolutely necessary", so you'll see anecdotes in response.

[YChang 3453]

3 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

That is the absolute lowest paid guy on the site, and he's bumping six figures BEFORE per-diem.  So please excuse me while I call bullshit all over EvErYoNe NeEdS A DeGrEe to even have a chance.  I would say the key is you actually have to get out there and WORK, but I see plenty holding up shovels so really, in many cases, you just have to show up.  And, we constantly deal with folk being poached for a few dollars here and there, so we are anything but high in the market. 

Well fatty we're all subject to biases of what we see around us. A college degree is still a barrier many have to cross for an entry level position... but with that said I think there is a recognition in industry how that needs to change. 

1 minute ago, Vegas64 said:

Also, at least in STEM/Tech, the perception has changed. People know that if you went to Stanford or Carnegie Mellon or something like that, then okay. But if you went to Texas State and got an economics or psychology degree, do you really need that to be an entry level marketing or sales or entry level analyst? Most tech and business skills are accreted through experience and "upskilling" as you get more experience, which happens on the job.

"Apple CEO Tim Cook even said in 2019 that about half of Apple's US employment last year was made up of people who did not have a four-year degree.  Google, Apple, and IBM are among the companies that don't require a college degree for certain positions, according to Glassdoor."

"Elon Musk said a college degree isn't required for a job at Tesla"

Granted with tech, you need foundational technical skills and knowledge, but nerds get that stuff tinkering and doing and as autodidactics anyways, they don't need Intro to Computer Science at big average and expensive state school. This is why if you can do bootcamps and certs and stuff you can get around having a degree.

I work at Apple and no way I would be in my current role without my graduate degree. Also that 1/2 number Tim mentioned is likely from retail. And I'm seeing more and more of the retail folks with degrees. But as you can imagine, there are lots of young people that's still figuring shit post undergrad and retail is a good way get them started. After 2-3 years most decide they want to move into corporate, stay in retail, or move on. 

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

2 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Now imagine the millions of craft labor out there doing the same thing and weep for them, as they never got their foot in the door.  Or the plant hands that start over 6 figures and work alternating 3 and 4 day weeks.      Call it anecdotal, I'm certain you can find the backup. 

I’m going to need a source citation or this is disinformation.

I need a ruling @Longhorn_Fan68 Is there somewhere in official White House communications to which you can refer me for resolution, clarity, and relief? I feel under assault. 

[jimmyjazz 45978]

15 minutes ago, Vegas64 said:

Granted with tech, you need foundational technical skills and knowledge, but nerds get that stuff tinkering and doing and as autodidactics anyways, they don't need Intro to Computer Science at big average and expensive state school. This is why if you can do bootcamps and certs and stuff you can get around having a degree.

I did some engineering programming early in my career, simply because we didn't have the tools to do the work.  I prefer the science end of it -- applying physics and math as opposed to coding the tools to solve the problems.

That said, coding seems to me to come the closest to a tech "trade".  It's a skill.  It can be learned in multiple ways.  It doesn't shock me one bit that EA or FB or whatever company one would care to name doesn't really care about the degree on the wall -- if a person is up to date on modern practices, then that's good enough.  They're gonna get stuck in a cave and tasked with cranking out product, anyway, they don't necessarily need a particularly broad outlook on life.  (Not that a broad outlook on life might not be useful, but there's a reason why a significant portion of software development is offshored.)

Edited April 29, 2022 by jimmyjazz

[Vegas64 676]

2 minutes ago, YChang said:

Well fatty we're all subject to biases of what we see around us. A college degree is still a barrier many have to cross for an entry level position... but with that said I think there is a recognition in industry how that needs to change. 

I work at Apple and no way I would be in my current role without my graduate degree. Also that 1/2 number Tim mentioned is likely from retail. And I'm seeing more and more of the retail folks with degrees. But as you can imagine, there are lots of young people that's still figuring shit post undergrad and retail is a good way get them started. After 2-3 years most decide they want to move into corporate, stay in retail, or move on. 

I'm sure to achieve the same roles and responsibilities that you have now, you a degreed professional in what I'll assume is middle age, would not be possible without a degree or a ton of unique experience. But is that what we are talking about? We are talking about entry level jobs that pay $55k versus the $255k degree you financed to get the job. In a lot of companies like Apple (really any F1000) there are avenues to have your employer help pay for you to get your check-box degree, as they are investing in you to get to those next rungs in the career and company that need a generic business degree from a generic school because it's simply a gate.

[fattyflattie 4639]

1 minute ago, YChang said:

A college degree is still a barrier many have to cross for an entry level position... but with that said I think there is a recognition in industry how that needs to change. 

But it's not, which is my point.  If you HAVE to work inside of an office, OK.  Women probably have more of an argument here.  But there are absolute fuck tons of well paid jobs that don't require anything but a passing drug screen.  I've managed hundreds of these employees for years.  Have been in meetings where everyone including exec mgt is depressed because a top field hand can bring in more than everyone but the CEO in a good year. Is college too expensive?  I don't know.  I'd pay 10x what Sam Houston charges for my kids to attend Texas.  The bigger problem is having to attend shit ass directional U to get in the professional workforce, but lol good luck with that while surrounded by peers with better academic skins.  A lack of respectable schools is the bigger issue, imo. 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33874]

9 minutes ago, Immaculate Vibes said:

I’m going to need a source citation or this is disinformation.

I need a ruling @Longhorn_Fan68 Is there somewhere in official White House communications to which you can refer me for resolution, clarity, and relief? I feel under assault. 

you just can't help but be a fucking bitch, can you?

[fattyflattie 4639]

1 minute ago, Vegas64 said:

I'm sure to achieve the same roles and responsibilities that you have now, you a degreed professional in what I'll assume is middle age, would not be possible without a degree or a ton of unique experience. But is that what we are talking about? We are talking about entry level jobs that pay $55k versus the $255k degree you financed to get the job. In a lot of companies like Apple (really any F1000) there are avenues to have your employer help pay for you to get your check-box degree, as they are investing in you to get to those next rungs in the career and company that need a generic business degree from a generic school because it's simply a gate.

My entry was actually 55k.  I financed about 50k for my (two) degrees.  I entered a field that demanded a lot of personal sacrifice for advancement.  I spent several years where I was by far the most educated person on the vessel, and literally paid less than half of every person aside from the BR hands that, no bullshit, were typically people just released from prison.    And that's ok, as once I advanced I got to sit in a window office in a high rise, and eat free fancy food on Westheimer every day.  But to say that opportunities just don't exist to make a good living, that is simply not true.   I'd wager a massive subset of this board are professionals that have been in the office their entire lives.  There's plenty of people out there that make a great living, doing work we'd prefer not to do, day in and out. 

[YChang 3453]

1 minute ago, fattyflattie said:

But it's not, which is my point.  If you HAVE to work inside of an office, OK.  Women probably have more of an argument here.  But there are absolute fuck tons of well paid jobs that don't require anything but a passing drug screen.  I've managed hundreds of these employees for years.  Have been in meetings where everyone including exec mgt is depressed because a top field hand can bring in more than everyone but the CEO in a good year. Is college too expensive?  I don't know.  I'd pay 10x what Sam Houston charges for my kids to attend Texas.  The bigger problem is having to attend shit ass directional U to get in the professional workforce, but lol good luck with that while surrounded by peers with better academic skins.  A lack of respectable schools is the bigger issue, imo. 

Gotcha gotcha... and yeah as with many things. It's complicated. Totally recognize that my POV is about "white collar" positions where hiring managers and their HR partners still automatically slap an BS/BA requirement. And I'm reading/seeing trends to where that should be going way as well! 

 

4 minutes ago, Vegas64 said:

I'm sure to achieve the same roles and responsibilities that you have now, you a degreed professional in what I'll assume is middle age, would not be possible without a degree or a ton of unique experience. But is that what we are talking about? We are talking about entry level jobs that pay $55k versus the $255k degree you financed to get the job. In a lot of companies like Apple (really any F1000) there are avenues to have your employer help pay for you to get your check-box degree, as they are investing in you to get to those next rungs in the career and company that need a generic business degree from a generic school because it's simply a gate.

Right right, I'm not in an entry level position at all, so what you're saying is fair. 

 

Something we've been working on/tweaking with some of the open roles on our teams is adding language like this: "We recognize that candidates (especially female candidates) feel they need to meet 100% of the job criteria in order to apply for this role. Please note that this is only a guide. If you don't tick every box, it's ok because it means you have room to learn and develop your career here. "

[RomaVicta 29931]

30 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Now imagine the millions of craft labor out there doing the same thing and weep for them, as they never got their foot in the door.  Or the plant hands that start over 6 figures and work alternating 3 and 4 day weeks.      Call it anecdotal, I'm certain you can find the backup. 

So, your entire spit-spewing response is based on your inability to recognize a simple assumption that my statement about needing a degree to get into the system only applied to widely recognized fields and industries requiring a college degree.

Instead, you choose to interpret my remarks to say "you can't get a job that doesn't require a college degree unless you have a college degree thus you will never make decent money. This is particularly true of skilled labor applying for jobs as plant hands."

One of us is particularly poor at argument. I doubt anyone else had much trouble discerning my meaning. You probably didn't either, but you felt compelled to answer twice in equally low grade sophistry. 

Unless your next post raises a real point, we're done on this line of discussion.

 

[RomaVicta 29931]

35 minutes ago, Vegas64 said:

To be fair you were being very absolutist with the "a degree is absolutely necessary", so you'll see anecdotes in response.

Did you believe I meant that you couldn't get a job at a gas station or a "plant hand" unless you had a sacred college degree?

I will bet you understood the assumption that fattieflatty chose to ignore. If there is general confusion as to my meaning, then I will own the lack of clarity. I'm not convinced that I was that opaque.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

44 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

I worked for quite awhile in my degree area then decided to apply my skills in another field. I've spent years doing OJT in the new job. I wouldn't have got the chance nor had the skills had I not both gone to college and acquired a degree in an unrelated field.

I'm reading Dickens' Our Mutual Friend. It doesn't flow as well as other novels of his, but it has the usual keen observations. One Mr. Podsnap seems to have some of Sack's qualities.

Dickens knows the world so well. I've had trouble following a few times in this novel, but not a few pages go by before he brilliantly illuminates some aspect of life. I've thought that you could use David Copperfield as a bible one could reference as one does the actual Bible for insights into life. It's all there. 

As this is about education, I will add that I was not a literature student.  I came hesitatingly to Dickens, but the payoff has been huge.

Close.  I have inherited very little and do not have a trust.

I inherited some O&G properties when my dad died when I was in high school.  His brother was nice enough to steal 95% of it.