Joe Biden 2022: Enter Dark Brandon

[Bullneck 19169]

59 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

They need to be funded by the only people who should get them.  Those who can pay for it out of pocket.  

It's a good thing the only people subjected to your brilliant opinions are anonymous posters on a message board.  

[Incredulity 11675]

2 hours ago, Hefeweizen said:

I’m GenX and going to drop 300k on a STEM

Holy shit.  Is that including private primary?

[Sawbonz 27578]

1 hour ago, Johnny Sack said:

They need to be funded by the only people who should get them.  Those who can pay for it out of pocket.  

Or we could expand the percentage of the cost of higher education taken care of by the state of TX back to what it was in the early to mid 80s. This could be done fairly cheaply by making 60 hours of community college tuition and fees free and standardizing pre-rec classes so that they would automatically be transferable to state 4 year schools and still wouldn’t be close to what it was in the 70s.
 

Add in a better federal grant in aid system (which should require work study). Make only public universities eligible for federally subsidized student loans and make them dischageable in bankruptcy. There is a lot that can be done. 

[Sawbonz 27578]

2 hours ago, Hefeweizen said:

I’m GenX and going to drop 300k on a STEM undergrad for my daughter.  Gladly.  Because she is worth the investment.  She will pay or finance grad/med school.
 

Do I think the price is ridiculous?  Yes.  Would I encourage her to take loans out?  Not if possible.  I do think the cycle of financial aid and tuition hikes is fucked up but I don’t have a great answer.

Seriously why would you do this? 

[George Clooney 378]

12 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

I don’t think anyone would have any issues with what anyone choses to study, if they weren’t being asked to cover the cost.  What people don’t like to hear is that someone willfully chose a degree without a plan to make money on the other side, and now has their hands out. 
 

 

I don’t support forgiving all student loan debt since that’d clearly be regressive, and I know of very few people even asking for that unless they hold that view in private. I simply think there’s a positive downstream effect from low-cost programs within the fields Sack derided in public institutions. The same is true of STEM majors, but I think everyone agrees with that already. Also, every conservative guy I’ve ever known has either publicly or privately bashed liberal arts majors even if said LA major has never begged for anything. 

[fattyflattie 4639]

1 minute ago, George Clooney said:

Also, every conservative guy I’ve ever known has either publicly or privately bashed liberal arts majors even if said LA major has never begged for anything. 

Eh, there’s plenty of conservative lawyers and others out there without STEM degrees. I’d wager 90% of their complaints stem from listening to people bitch and stomp feet about not being able to afford a house, kids, loan repayment, whatever, while they knowingly decided to study something that wouldn’t afford them those possibilities. And just how unfair it is their chosen study isn’t a highly paid field.  Additionally, they knowingly and with full conscience passed on paths that pay better. Which is fine, determine what you want to do and go for it.   You won’t find me arguing to rid of the humanities.  But, all that said, don’t cry for me Argentina when you’re making a 75k and teaching somewhere with 200k invested in that learning.  If your passion is historical Indonesian culture, you should at least be prepared to accept that it won’t afford you the lifestyle you may covet 10-40 years later. 

[safe sex 11735]

59 minutes ago, George Clooney said:

 but that’s to be expected when a certain proportion of the population seeks religion while rejecting the churches in which they were raised.

This is amazing

[George Clooney 378]

1 minute ago, trauma babe said:

This is amazing

It’s not a critique but rather an observation. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I think a certain proportion of any population seeks meaning and enlightenment through an organization/ideology with dogmatic ideas. They aren’t wrong for doing so, and I don’t blame those who have rejected the Catholic Church in particular (I am one of them). However, I would never cast judgment upon those who find meaning from their church as long as they fully respect others’ civil liberties.

[fattyflattie 4639]

30 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Seriously why would you do this? 

Because his kid is brilliant, and an extremely high achiever.  Itll l likely be a molehill compared to her future earnings. 

[George Clooney 378]

12 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Eh, there’s plenty of conservative lawyers and others out there without STEM degrees. I’d wager 90% of their complaints stem from listening to people bitch and stomp feet about not being able to afford a house, kids, loan repayment, whatever, while they knowingly decided to study something that wouldn’t afford them those possibilities. And just how unfair it is their chosen study isn’t a highly paid field.  Additionally, they knowingly and with full conscience passed on paths that pay better. Which is fine, determine what you want to do and go for it.   You won’t find me arguing to rid of the humanities.  But, all that said, don’t cry for me Argentina when you’re making a 75k and teaching somewhere with 200k invested in that learning.  If your passion is historical Indonesian culture, you should at least be prepared to accept that it won’t afford you the lifestyle you may covet 10-40 years later. 

I suppose you and I run in very different circles then, or perhaps we just perceive common complaints in very different manners. I don’t place strict values on degrees in a consequential manner even though our culture does, and that’s fine. Regardless of what one chooses to study, I think more people ought to read the works of various ideologies/thought from Nietzsche to Hume to Marx to Burke and beyond.

[Bullneck 19169]

29 minutes ago, George Clooney said:

Also, every conservative guy I’ve ever known has either publicly or privately bashed liberal arts majors even if said LA major has never begged for anything. 

Conservative guys like easy answers. And they don't like people with differing opinions.  

[Hefeweizen 5328]

15 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Because his kid is brilliant, and an extremely high achiever.  Itll l likely be a molehill compared to her future earnings. 

This right here.  She is the hardest working person I know.  If I can afford it why wouldn't I want to give every advantage I can?

[George Clooney 378]

3 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

Conservative guys like easy answers. And they don't like people with differing opinions.  

To be fair, I don’t hang out with many conservative guys nor are there many outspoken ones in my extended family, so I don’t have a wide-ranging view of their thoughts in recent times. That being said, I don’t wish to shame conservative men or women even if they adhere to strict moral absolutism derived from the Church. I find the timid steadfastness of many liberals to be off putting as well, but that’s a conversation for elsewhere.

[jimmyjazz 45976]

28 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Because his kid is brilliant, and an extremely high achiever.  Itll l likely be a molehill compared to her future earnings. 

$300K for a STEM degree is $75K per year.  (I did the math.)

That's upper end tuition, room & board for elite private schools, and probably above most elite public schools (out of state tuition).

If in fact his kid is brilliant, then she should have been awarded plenty of scholarships to bring that cost way down.  He can still pay for the rest out of pocket, but $300K seems way high given what you've said.  (Or maybe you're just spit-balling.)

[fattyflattie 4639]

5 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

$300K for a STEM degree is $75K per year.  (I did the math.)

That's upper end tuition, room & board for elite private schools, and probably above most elite public schools (out of state tuition).

If in fact his kid is brilliant, then she should have been awarded plenty of scholarships to bring that cost way down.  He can still pay for the rest out of pocket, but $300K seems way high given what you've said.  (Or maybe you're just spit-balling.)

I don’t recall the specifics, but remember his kid is going to some very exclusive school.  I remember reading thru his posts and wondering when he realized his kid was that far above the typical child. I’d give my left nut and 300k for the tuition if I could ensure the same outcome for mine. 

[Bullneck 19169]

8 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

$300K for a STEM degree is $75K per year.  (I did the math.)

That's upper end tuition, room & board for elite private schools, and probably above most elite public schools (out of state tuition).

If in fact his kid is brilliant, then she should have been awarded plenty of scholarships to bring that cost way down.  He can still pay for the rest out of pocket, but $300K seems way high given what you've said.  (Or maybe you're just spit-balling.)

The Comptroller’s Office team congratulates you on your child’s acceptance to Phillips Academy and hopes you will be joining our community. The following information should provide assistance in planning for the expenses associated with the upcoming academic year.Tuition Charge and Annual Cost - Tuition for 2021-2022 is $61,950 for boarding students and $48,020 for day students.

The full price to attend MIT for the 2019–2020 academic year is $73,160.⁠ This total costs includes $53,450 for tuition, $10,430 for housing, $5,960 for food costs, $2,160 for personal expenses, $820 for books and supplies and $340 to cover the school’s student life fee.

[jimmyjazz 45976]

5 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

The full price to attend MIT for the 2019–2020 academic year is $73,160.⁠ This total costs includes $53,450 for tuition, $10,430 for housing, $5,960 for food costs, $2,160 for personal expenses, $820 for books and supplies and $340 to cover the school’s student life fee.

So, literally dead nuts on what I said?  I don't get your point.

[Vegas64 676]

1) Doing away with the very liberal arts or making those not loan-friendly (because they are expensive and not as valuable individually relative to their general ROI) as Sack said is actually going to create an even bigger moat in inequality insomuch as only the privileged will be able to afford to study them. Philosophy and Visual Arts in Multimedia, Gender studies, etc., and essentially the entire institution of NYU and Columbia would be rendered even more a privileged finishing school (just kidding, decent B-schools). I say this as someone with a modicum of cash and a liberal arts background.

2) Speaking of finishing school, that’s what undergrad basically is if you aren’t learning a trade profession with clear cut rules and governance (coding, accounting, etc.). It’s essentially a finishing school where you learn how to better write, read, apply judgment, manage your time, learn how to balance social skills with work, understand hierarchy and power maps/org charges, learn the lines you can cross and which you cannot, what you can get away with and what you can’t, etc. It’s a very expensive soft-skill finishing school for polish, which itself is privileged.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Vegas64

[Sawbonz 27578]

25 minutes ago, Hefeweizen said:

This right here.  She is the hardest working person I know.  If I can afford it why wouldn't I want to give every advantage I can?

Its great that you can afford it but wrt medicine I just don’t know how much of an advantage you are giving her. There are plenty of spots for an excellent STEM degree without paying 75K a year and STEM is more of a fallback in case she doesn’t get in than an advantage on her application.

Unless you are also paying for her medical school as well she is looking at 250K (assuming in state public) of debt for that, much of which will capitalize during the remaining med school years plus residency, and the higher income specialties have the longest residencies/fellowships. With the changes happening in physician comp it is a big risk and I caution all the young people who shadow me not to do it unless they really feel called to it

My eldest is like your daughter 5th in a class of 600 and 99+ percentile ACT and 99 SAT. She got into some great schools but we don’t qualify for any need based aid, so my stipulation was she had to get merit based aid equaling the difference between that school and UT. At the end of the day UT was her first choice so we’re good for now. 

If we only had 1 kid I might have looked at things differently but we have 4

My goal is to get my kids through undergrad for 120K or less out of my pocket between picking the best value  schools, scholarships, and work, and then being able to help w graduate school or head start in their adult lives

 

[jimmyjazz 45976]

Yeah, we're doing some financial aid, some out of (my) pocket for my daughter at UT.  I expect she'll graduate with ~ $20K in loans, and I'll probably pay them.

Then comes the son, trying to CAP into UT from UT-Tyler.  Rinse, lather, repeat.

Older son is probably 70% done with his bachelors on the cheap (tons of ACC classes).  He's amazing.  Does everything online for the most part.  This spring I paid something like $600, which he matched.  Lives in our house.

Older daughter is done, but has a cosmetology student loan.  It's almost paid off.

[Hefeweizen 5328]

11 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Its great that you can afford it but wrt medicine I just don’t know how much of an advantage you are giving her. There are plenty of spots for an excellent STEM degree without paying 75K a year and STEM is more of a fallback in case she doesn’t get in than an advantage on her application.

Unless you are also paying for her medical school as well she is looking at 250K (assuming in state public) of debt for that, much of which will capitalize during the remaining med school years plus residency, and the higher income specialties have the longest residencies/fellowships. With the changes happening in physician comp it is a big risk and I caution all the young people who shadow me not to do it unless they really feel called to it

My eldest is like your daughter 5th in a class of 600 and 99+ percentile ACT and 99 SAT. She got into some great schools but we don’t qualify for any need based aid, so my stipulation was she had to get merit based aid equaling the difference between that school and UT. At the end of the day UT was her first choice so we’re good for now. 

If we only had 1 kid I might have looked at things differently but we have 4

My goal is to get my kids through undergrad for 120K or less out of my pocket between picking the best value  schools, scholarships, and work, and then being able to help w graduate school or head start in their adult lives

 

I have two and my gut tells me that she (oldest) may change her mind on medical school.  

Son wants to go to a state school so he’ll have more available for grad school.  I like them to be involved in the decision on the spend.

 

 Nothing to criticize about your approach.  If my daughter would have picked UT I’d have been ecstatic.

[Hefeweizen 5328]

Last off topic comment: my dad did this scenario for my sister and I too.  Undergrad paid for, then on our own.  It’s an amazing head start (since I had no intention of going to grad school).  Not having debt at graduation is massive.

[jimmyjazz 45976]

6 minutes ago, Hefeweizen said:

Last off topic comment: my dad did this scenario for my sister and I too.  Undergrad paid for, then on our own.  It’s an amazing head start (since I had no intention of going to grad school).  Not having debt at graduation is massive.

Yup.  I had more than enough in "my" account to pay for undergrad + first semester grad.  After that I just got RA positions and roommates.  No debt.  A huge gift.

[Sawbonz 27578]

1 minute ago, Hefeweizen said:

I have two and my gut tells me that she (oldest) may change her mind on medical school.  

Son wants to go to a state school so he’ll have more available for grad school.  I like them to be involved in the decision on the spend.

 

 Nothing to criticize about your approach.  If my daughter would have picked UT I’d have been ecstatic.

I definitely want them to have a say within reason. I came from very little and had friends and family who had nothing. Growing up I was told no all the time but it was always because we couldn’t afford it. It’s hard telling your kids no just because (at least that’s how they see it).  We’ve had some serious bumps in the road with our eldest on this and she is far from spoiled. From sophomore year she was dead set against going to UT so I basically said nothing about UT for the past 18 months. She initiated interest and when she actually toured it thankfully she fell in love. 
 

 

[Fudge Nuggets 19206]

19 hours ago, Immaculate Vibes said:

What should our rate be at the top?

Same as it was back when America was “great”, 91%.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

4 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

Why would you not say the same for STEM degrees?  Or do you?  Just do away with all student loans and make college affordable?  I’m down with that. 

Way too many people study that stuff.  It’s a waste of money.  Unless you have means and don’t need money.  There shouldn’t be loans for passion project degrees.  

[jimmyjazz 45976]

3 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Way too many people study that stuff.  It’s a waste of money.  Unless you have means and don’t need money.  There shouldn’t be loans for passion project degrees.  

It's almost as if you never read the fucking thread.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Just now, jimmyjazz said:

It's almost as if you never read the fucking thread.

It’s almost like you think I care about what you post and want to agree with you. I don’t.  

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19103]

7 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Way too many people study that stuff.  It’s a waste of money.  Unless you have means and don’t need money.  There shouldn’t be loans for passion project degrees.  

By your definition, Economics would be considered a passion project degree, because a number of schools have it so you can take it as a Bachelor of Arts degree.  At Loyola, we had paths that allowed you a Bachelor of Arts, a Bachelor of Science, or a BBA with a major in economics.  The difference was the Arts was more theory and the Science was more math.  I myself am 3 hours short of a second degree in Economics.  I just didn't take the advanced micro class (I did take something similar in grad school though).  Of everything I learned through my undergrad and two grad degrees, economic theory is the thing I have used the absolute most.  

[Johnny Sack 8397]

And if you want to make colleges more affordable like they were back in the day.  Make colleges more like they were back then.  No 100 people doing no work jobs in the diversity department.  Cut admin positions back to what they used to be — a fraction of what it is now.  Facilities and dorms won’t be nearly as nice.   
 

I don’t think the academic elites will be on board though.  

[Johnny Sack 8397]

2 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

By your definition, Economics would be considered a passion project degree, because a number of schools have it so you can take it as a Bachelor of Arts degree.  At Loyola, we had paths that allowed you a Bachelor of Arts, a Bachelor of Science, or a BBA with a major in economics.  The difference was the Arts was more theory and the Science was more math.  I myself am 3 hours short of a second degree in Economics.  I just didn't take the advanced micro class (I did take something similar in grad school though).  Of everything I learned through my undergrad and two grad degrees, economic theory is the thing I have used the absolute most.  

Maybe have one school in each state that offers those degrees.  There is zero reason for every school to offer them.  It would be so easy to cut costs.  

[jimmyjazz 45976]

9 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

It’s almost like you think I care about what you post and want to agree with you. I don’t.  

Evidence would lean to the contrary.

[Biff Tannen 45691]

Lulz. Sack gonna sack. 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

5 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Lulz. Sack gonna sack. 

Trying to school you guys with common sense is an uphill battle.  

[SizzleChest 8284]

12 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Trying to school you guys with common sense is an uphill battle.  

That's mostly because you present yourself in these threads as someone capable of critical thinking, but severely lacking self-awareness.

[Satchel 6938]

33 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Maybe have one school in each state that offers those degrees.  There is zero reason for every school to offer them.  It would be so easy to cut costs.  

If Texas was that school, thousands  of gifted kids would be out of luck.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

10 minutes ago, SizzleChest said:

That's mostly because you present yourself in these threads as someone capable of critical thinking, but severely lacking self-awareness.

Yes.  That’s it.  Cloak Room is famous for its self-aware critical thinkers.  

Edited April 30, 2022 by Johnny Sack

[SizzleChest 8284]

1 minute ago, Johnny Sack said:

Yes.  That’s it.  Cloak Room is famous for its critical thinkers.  

I didn't say you were the only one, Chi Chi.  You are not the only one that likes to dance without really understanding what music is playing.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

8 minutes ago, Satchel said:

If Texas was that school, thousands  of gifted kids would be out of luck.

They would have to study something valuable. How unfortunate. 

[Sawbonz 27578]

7 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Yes.  That’s it.  Cloak Room is famous for its critical thinkers.  

You could always go to Texags. Raise the average IQ of both boards

[Satchel 6938]

1 minute ago, Johnny Sack said:

They would have to study something valuable. How unfortunate. 

What did you study?

[TwiceHorn 31496]

6 hours ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

And when the next bust comes (and it will) they will be collecting unemployment and new grads will be looking for 50k and get fuck all.

Or incurring debt for a BSME. 

 

[TwiceHorn 31496]

1 hour ago, Johnny Sack said:

And if you want to make colleges more affordable like they were back in the day.  Make colleges more like they were back then.  No 100 people doing no work jobs in the diversity department.  Cut admin positions back to what they used to be — a fraction of what it is now.  Facilities and dorms won’t be nearly as nice.   
 

I don’t think the academic elites will be on board though.  

I rather doubt that it's the academic elites that are behind all of that. 

 

When the states started to cut funding, and other factors (student laon bubble), schools started running like businesses attracting students by factors other than academics and cost. 

Various UT officials might be against it but not the academics, I would wager. Unless they figure that budget cuts would hit them earlier and harder than rec sports and housing {and they might be right). 

Edited April 30, 2022 by TwiceHorn

[Johnny Sack 8397]

10 minutes ago, Satchel said:

What did you study?

Accounting and finance.  Graduated summa cum laude due to privilege.  Just like privilege let me graduate top ten percent at Texas law.  
 

I can’t imagine suggesting a non trust fund kid to major in some bullshit humanities or grievance studies degree.  Seems really, really stupid.  
 

And other lib arts degrees that might lead to something — you better be careful and have a plan. Unless you have family support.  

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Just now, TwiceHorn said:

I rather doubt that it's the academic elites that are behind all of that. 

 

When the states started to cut funding, and other factors (student laon bubble), schools started running like businesses attracting students by factors other than academics. 

I don’t see how that would have anything to do with the explosion of admin positions that add no value.  

[Sawbonz 27578]

Just now, Johnny Sack said:

Accounting and finance.  Graduated summa cum laude due to privilege.  Just like privilege let me graduate top ten percent at Texas law.  
 

I can’t imagine suggesting a non trust fund kid to major in some bullshit humanities or grievance studies degree.  Seems really, really stupid.  
 

And other lib arts degrees that might lead to something — you better be careful and have a plan. Unless you have family support.  

How many hours a week did you work in undergrad? What was your debt when you started law school?

[Satchel 6938]

5 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Accounting and finance.  Graduated summa cum laude due to privilege.  Just like privilege let me graduate top ten percent at Texas law.  
 

I can’t imagine suggesting a non trust fund kid to major in some bullshit humanities or grievance studies degree.  Seems really, really stupid.  
 

And other lib arts degrees that might lead to something — you better be careful and have a plan. Unless you have family support.  

Do you think it’s a good thing that everybody can’t be like you?

[TwiceHorn 31496]

4 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

I don’t see how that would have anything to do with the explosion of admin positions that add no value.  

Business types are famous for admin bloat.

Also, summa cum laude? Did you go to UT for undergrad? 

 

[workswithseed 2112]

1 hour ago, Johnny Sack said:

And if you want to make colleges more affordable like they were back in the day.  Make colleges more like they were back then.  No 100 people doing no work jobs in the diversity department.  Cut admin positions back to what they used to be — a fraction of what it is now.  Facilities and dorms won’t be nearly as nice.   
 

I don’t think the academic elites will be on board though.  

 

 

[fattyflattie 4639]

1 hour ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

By your definition, Economics would be considered a passion project degree, because a number of schools have it so you can take it as a Bachelor of Arts degree.  At Loyola, we had paths that allowed you a Bachelor of Arts, a Bachelor of Science, or a BBA with a major in economics.  The difference was the Arts was more theory and the Science was more math.  I myself am 3 hours short of a second degree in Economics.  I just didn't take the advanced micro class (I did take something similar in grad school though).  Of everything I learned through my undergrad and two grad degrees, economic theory is the thing I have used the absolute most.  

NOLA or Chitown?