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Tom

Tom 2959

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48 minutes ago, TurkeyChew said:

Okay but that’s only part of it, keep playing the song out to the end of the tape, if you will.

Now that person who benefitted has the ability to put $50k down to buy the starter house you wanted or to start the business that you had an idea for, but you’ve put your finite resource (money via income) into something that nobody else will have to so you don’t have the savings. Now they will have an exponential advantage on wealth building than you could ever have.

I guess you can argue the experience and discomfort and struggling and pain of being young and paying off a massive amount of student loans has its own intrinsic reward of character (e.g what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger, learned that sacrifices are hard, learned how to struggle with grace or stoicism, etc.), but it would be hard to not see how resentment and bitterness would have to exist in a normal, average human condition. That is why I think there should be some program or rebate or enablement for those in the last 20 or 30 years who can prove by documentation that they paid off student loans that would otherwise have been forgiven. And if you are in default or not current on student loans you aren’t eligible for forgiveness.

 

I FINALLY paid off the last of my loans in 2021 from a school I graduated from in 2009 from a degree I don't even use directly anymore and no longer have anything to do with the field of study.  It took forever because I initially put off paying it seriously for a long time, plus after getting divorced with a lot of debt there was some struggle and deferments/forbearances along the way. I was fortunate enough to also have some help from my parents.  But it was finally all paid off in 2021.

I give zero shits if the government comes in and helps other people with these burdensome school loans even though I've now paid my own off.  I just don't get the mindset of "well, I suffered through it so everyone else has to suffer, too."

The only thing I really have against the blanket forgiveness of loans is that it does nothing to address why school is so expensive now in the first place. There's no good reason school needs to cost as much as it does today compared to three, four, five decades ago.   I think the potential downside is that banks and schools might be emboldened to increase prices and give out even bigger loans if they know the government will just come in and write a blank check to pay off debts.  I'd like to see legislation tied to school loan forgiveness that aims at reducing the cost of college whether it's by allowing loans to be written off through normal bankruptcy, price caps on what schools can charge, or whatever it takes.  We don't need to be having the conversation again every 10 years.

 

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fattyflattie

fattyflattie 4639

Posted
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14 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

Just comfort yourself knowing that you were responsible and did the right thing, and stop worrying so much about someone maybe getting a few more crumbs of pie than you did.   

Or, voice your opinion thru your vote. My understanding is there are still a lot more people who aren’t college educated, and I can’t imagine they just can’t wait to help pay for others who got the opportunity they weren’t afforded.   50-100k in college, 75-100k in daycare, misseditbythismuch.gif

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TurkeyChew

TurkeyChew 383

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7 minutes ago, Tom said:

 

I FINALLY paid off the last of my loans in 2021 from a school I graduated from in 2009 from a degree I don't even use directly anymore and no longer have anything to do with the field of study.  It took forever because I initially put off paying it seriously for a long time, plus after getting divorced with a lot of debt there was some struggle and deferments/forbearances along the way. I was fortunate enough to also have some help from my parents.  But it was finally all paid off in 2021.

I give zero shits if the government comes in and helps other people with these burdensome school loans even though I've now paid my own off.  I just don't get the mindset of "well, I suffered through it so everyone else has to suffer, too."

The only thing I really have against the blanket forgiveness of loans is that it does nothing to address why school is so expensive now in the first place. There's no good reason school needs to cost as much as it does today compared to three, four, five decades ago.   I think the potential downside is that banks and schools might be emboldened to increase prices and give out even bigger loans if they know the government will just come in and write a blank check to pay off debts.  I'd like to see legislation tied to school loan forgiveness that aims at reducing the cost of college whether it's by allowing loans to be written off through normal bankruptcy, price caps on what schools can charge, or whatever it takes.  We don't need to be having the conversation again every 10 years.

 

It is less about “I suffered so I want others to suffer” than it is “you are benefiting, I want to benefit”, because there are massive economic opportunity costs for those who paid off student loans that those who hypothetically won’t, will not have incurred.

This up here in bold, is why I believe (despite anecdotal stories of folks like yourself who don’t care) blanket loan forgiveness wont happen. If it does happen it will be appropriately means tested or metered and hopefully there will be a pressure valve program for those who made the same sacrifices you made but do care they got economically screwed. In my opinion of course, but I think that’s why blanket loan forgiveness never gets anywhere despite it getting a lot of air time as a policy.

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Gourmand

Gourmand 7774

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11 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Or, voice your opinion thru your vote. My understanding is there are still a lot more people who aren’t college educated, and I can’t imagine they just can’t wait to help pay for others who got the opportunity they weren’t afforded.   50-100k in college, 75-100k in daycare, misseditbythismuch.gif

Stop making this about worker vs worker or the average citizen vs yourself. What this is really about is the rich vs everyone else. Read this and tell me why that is perfectly acceptable in your worldview but using tax dollars to provide for things like higher education, paid paternity leave, child care payments etc is unfair? 

Spoiler

Less than 35% of the $800 billion in PPP loans actually went to workers, say economists

The rest of the loan money landed in the pockets of the company’s owners and shareholders, according to a new report.

Newsflash: the rich are getting over on you! So why are you fixated on unsaddling some of the burdensome student loan debt? How about we tax them and raise corporate taxes while cutting some of our defense expenditures instead of listening to conservative anti-govt propaganda that serves the interest of the richest Americans only while the United States falls behind the rest of the world.

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Johnny Sack

Johnny Sack 8397

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What is the point of forgiving loans when we will just be in the same place in ten years?

Schools have gotten too expensive because of unbridled federal loans.  They spend on ridiculous resort quality facilities (compare the average dorm or rec center from the 70s to what schools have now).  The administrator to faculty ratio has exploded.  The University of Texas does not need 100 full time employees in the diversity department.  It's a make work program for people with shitty degrees.

And students need to be smart about loans.  There are reasonable in state options.  You can start at a JUCO or community college.  Choose a school in a low cost area.  Work part-time.

Don't get a liberal arts degree at some private or out of state public for 5 years and use loans for living, partying, and tuition while racking up $250k in debt.

A whole lot of kids would be better off learning a trade or technical skill.

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Goofyboy

Goofyboy 3293

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The school loan issue can be fixed by the government not standing behind them with a guarantee. Make school loans bankruptable. Add the risk back in. Right now, there is zero risk on the bank / school side to make the loans.

Forgive a bunch of the debt. Even half for people would be a massive step forward and then change the bankruptcy rules around school loans.

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Johnny Sack

Johnny Sack 8397

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44 minutes ago, Goofyboy said:

The school loan issue can be fixed by the government not standing behind them with a guarantee. Make school loans bankruptable. Add the risk back in. Right now, there is zero risk on the bank / school side to make the loans.

Forgive a bunch of the debt. Even half for people would be a massive step forward and then change the bankruptcy rules around school loans.

Zero risk?  What happens when some broke dick with a bunch of loans dies or stops paying?  They get a judgment they can't collect?

I am fine with that as a going forward measure.  Access to loans will be significantly reduced.

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Goofyboy

Goofyboy 3293

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Zero risk?  What happens when some broke dick with a bunch of loans dies or stops paying?  They get a judgment they can't collect?
I am fine with that as a going forward measure.  Access to loans will be significantly reduced.

Ok, there is almost zero risk. Outside of someone dying, the loans are guaranteed by the US government. You can’t bankrupt them. Your wages can be garnished (up to 15%). Is that better?
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Willfully Horn

Willfully Horn 8017

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Posted
3 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

Or, voice your opinion thru your vote. My understanding is there are still a lot more people who aren’t college educated, and I can’t imagine they just can’t wait to help pay for others who got the opportunity they weren’t afforded.   50-100k in college, 75-100k in daycare, misseditbythismuch.gif

Folks making tens of millions to billions haven’t a grievance to file towards the society that enabled their wealth. 

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Willfully Horn

Willfully Horn 8017

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3 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

What is the point of forgiving loans when we will just be in the same place in ten years?

Schools have gotten too expensive because of unbridled federal loans.  They spend on ridiculous resort quality facilities (compare the average dorm or rec center from the 70s to what schools have now).  The administrator to faculty ratio has exploded.  The University of Texas does not need 100 full time employees in the diversity department.  It's a make work program for people with shitty degrees.

And students need to be smart about loans.  There are reasonable in state options.  You can start at a JUCO or community college.  Choose a school in a low cost area.  Work part-time.

Don't get a liberal arts degree at some private or out of state public for 5 years and use loans for living, partying, and tuition while racking up $250k in debt.

A whole lot of kids would be better off learning a trade or technical skill.

There’re good, pragmatic, thoughts in this post.

 

2 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

Zero risk?  What happens when some broke dick with a bunch of loans dies or stops paying?  They get a judgment they can't collect?

I am fine with that as a going forward measure.  Access to loans will be significantly reduced.


Grown ass men who deny a responsibility to others are the broke dicks, IMO. But your point has merit.

 

3 hours ago, Goofyboy said:

Forgive a bunch of the debt. Even half for people would be a massive step forward and then change the bankruptcy rules around school loans.

Interest free debt. Maybe a 1.5% insurance premium for the first couple of years to offset losses.

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fuggled

fuggled 576

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5 hours ago, TurkeyChew said:

Okay but that’s only part of it, keep playing the song out to the end of the tape, if you will.

Now that person who benefitted has the ability to put $50k down to buy the starter house you wanted or to start the business that you had an idea for, but you’ve put your finite resource (money via income) into something that nobody else will have to so you don’t have the savings. Now they will have an exponential advantage on wealth building than you could ever have.

I guess you can argue the experience and discomfort and struggling and pain of being young and paying off a massive amount of student loans has its own intrinsic reward of character (e.g what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger, learned that sacrifices are hard, learned how to struggle with grace or stoicism, etc.), but it would be hard to not see how resentment and bitterness would have to exist in a normal, average human condition. That is why I think there should be some program or rebate or enablement for those in the last 20 or 30 years who can prove by documentation that they paid off student loans that would otherwise have been forgiven. And if you are in default or not current on student loans you aren’t eligible for forgiveness.

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F250

F250 28775

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Posted
17 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Every accusation is a confession.  Remember, Trump wanted Ivanka to lead the World Bank.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/04/ivanka-trump-world-bank

It is and it is intentional. Accuse the opposition of doing XYZ in order to justify doing XYZ yourself. Create outrage to justify dirty retaliation.

The GOP's playbook is to yell "That’s my purse" before kicking someone in the nuts Bobby Hill style.

 

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fattyflattie

fattyflattie 4639

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7 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

What is the point of forgiving loans when we will just be in the same place in ten years?

Because it will buy an entire generation's votes for life.  This isn't about rescuing people from 4% debt.   I'd wager most of these "kids" got out and made a considerably worse deal on a vehicle about 3 months after their steady pay came in.  

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fattyflattie

fattyflattie 4639

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1 minute ago, Biff Tannen said:

I don't believe most employers give a fuck right now.  

I couldn't tell you.  I know I have to take constant DISA tests because we often work in plants.  Lots of our clients also have screens every time work starts, a few weeks later, xxxx amount of randoms/month, etc.  I end up volunteered a lot because, well, construction crews going to construction crew.   Not sure how an accounting firm would treat it. 

More specifically curious about driving infractions.  Weed stays with you for a bit no?  What happens to every POC who gets pulled over who is all of a sudden "showing the signs of intoxication"...

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Willfully Horn

Willfully Horn 8017

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Posted
12 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

I just believe it will be in demand with employers, and insurance companies.  Will be interesting to see how that all shakes out. 

No doubt. There’s plenty of hypocritical business models. I say that due to experiencing hangovers with the legal stuff, but not some of the illegal smile stuff.

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Zepol87

Zepol87 9186

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Posted
12 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

I couldn't tell you.  I know I have to take constant DISA tests because we often work in plants.  Lots of our clients also have screens every time work starts, a few weeks later, xxxx amount of randoms/month, etc.  I end up volunteered a lot because, well, construction crews going to construction crew.   Not sure how an accounting firm would treat it. 

More specifically curious about driving infractions.  Weed stays with you for a bit no?  What happens to every POC who gets pulled over who is all of a sudden "showing the signs of intoxication"...

Kudos for bolded but are you really worried about POC here?

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fattyflattie

fattyflattie 4639

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Just now, Zepol87 said:

Kudos for bolded but are you really worried about POC here?

I’m not a denier that police give them a harder time.  Or look a bit harder for an excuse if you will.  So, yeah I be worried a bit more for them. I’m not an expert on drug testing, and curious in the difference between a screen 3 hours after you smoked, vs 24 hours or so.  If you pop both ways, could be a liability issue while driving (while not intoxicated) 

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F250

F250 28775

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Posted
1 hour ago, fattyflattie said:

I’m not a denier that police give them a harder time.  Or look a bit harder for an excuse if you will.  So, yeah I be worried a bit more for them. I’m not an expert on drug testing, and curious in the difference between a screen 3 hours after you smoked, vs 24 hours or so.  If you pop both ways, could be a liability issue while driving (while not intoxicated) 

I believe Colorado has a legal limit for THC similar to alcohol while driving due to it being legal. Non-legal states don't have a limit so it's probably up to whatever the cop thinks at the moment. Seems better to have legal parameters setup around Marijuana.

 

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Biff Tannen

Biff Tannen 45684

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8 minutes ago, F250 said:

I believe Colorado has a legal limit for THC similar to alcohol while driving due to it being legal. Non-legal states don't have a limit so it's probably up to whatever the cop thinks at the moment. Seems better to have legal parameters setup around Marijuana.

 

Yup.  Not positive about the limit, but I believe that's mostly correct.  

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Gourmand

Gourmand 7774

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Posted
3 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

Because it will buy an entire generation's votes for life.  This isn't about rescuing people from 4% debt.   I'd wager most of these "kids" got out and made a considerably worse deal on a vehicle about 3 months after their steady pay came in.  

Uh, yeah? Hopefully. That's kind of how politics is supposed to work--candidates offer campaign promises to the electorate in order to win elections. Amazingly there are tens of millions of dumbass working class Republicans who have been conned into voting against their own economic interests and happily  passed those economic rewards on to the wealthiest Americans because of culture war distractions over God, guns, and guts.

 

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Gourmand

Gourmand 7774

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Posted
1 minute ago, Bravo said:

Let's just keep throwing money at a problem caused by the govt throwing money at it. 

It's amazing how none of you fucknut fiscal responsibility gooper warrriors have nothing to say about the 880 BILLION DOLLARS in PPP loans that overwhelmingly did not go  to workers and a fat chunk of that has been forgiven by the federal government. But when it comes to individual citizens getting a break, personal fiscal responsibility is your guiding light.

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F250

F250 28775

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1 hour ago, Gourmand said:

It's amazing how none of you fucknut fiscal responsibility gooper warrriors have nothing to say about the 880 BILLION DOLLARS in PPP loans that overwhelmingly did not go  to workers and a fat chunk of that has been forgiven by the federal government. But when it comes to individual citizens getting a break, personal fiscal responsibility is your guiding light.

Chump change compared to the billions of dollars in increased farm subsidies that had to be paid because China never paid for the tariffs. Let farmers engage in trade on the free market?

"Nah fuck that, the mobility of goods and services on the  free market is Socialism. Let's just take tax payer money and toss billions in hand outs at Big Agriculture."  - Republicans

 

 

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