Joe Biden 2022: Enter Dark Brandon

[StassneyHorn 6575]

Shut up

[Nice Guy Eddie 13509]

Dems seem to be step behind and out of touch with reality with each new bill or initiative. Or there is some ideal that they really want to something so let’s try it even though it will lead to failure in the senate. I’m referencing the latest voting rights bill. I have no idea what’s in it but I have no doubt they loaded up with whatever any Dem lawmaker wanted.

instead why not just tackle a couple of simple items that even manchin and sinema can get behind. Then even if Cruz and Hawley filibuster it to death, there is an easy message to Dems and independents in November.

I normally vote Dem but I have come to the conclusion that Dems have already conceded losing the house and perhaps the senate. The senate could stay Dem controlled.

 

 

[wildcat09 29349]

17 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Dems seem to be step behind and out of touch with reality with each new bill or initiative. Or there is some ideal that they really want to something so let’s try it even though it will lead to failure in the senate. I’m referencing the latest voting rights bill. I have no idea what’s in it but I have no doubt they loaded up with whatever any Dem lawmaker wanted.

instead why not just tackle a couple of simple items that even manchin and sinema can get behind. Then even if Cruz and Hawley filibuster it to death, there is an easy message to Dems and independents in November.

I normally vote Dem but I have come to the conclusion that Dems have already conceded losing the house and perhaps the senate. The senate could stay Dem controlled.

 

 

Have you paid no attention to how Sinema and Manchin have behaved this past year?

"If the Dems followed my preferred legislative strategy" is a favorite new game a lot of people are playing, and they're all wrong about what would've or could've worked and how easy it would've been. This is very simple: Manchin and Sinema believe that their political futures depend on them being seen as mavericky types who will keep the party from going "too far left."

They're not interested in any of the substance of any legislation, whether it be BBB or voting rights. They're not interested in being team players. In fact, they're very interested in being seen as NOT team players.  Manchin wants to run again in West Virginia and thinks he has to be seen fighting the party a lot. Maybe he comes around on some version of BBB that gives West Virginia a lot of shit, but he's certainly not going to support voting rights for black people. Sinema doesn't want to give Biden a win on anything. She wants to kneecap his presidency because she wants to primary him. Yes, that's stupid and it's because she's fucking stupid.

[TurkeyChew 383]

Is it just me or is there an influx of "Let's Go Brandon" stickers popping up in random places. Not just in Redneckville-- saw one on the intercom of the Whataburger speaker this morning and saw one on a pole outside of a hotel in Midtown Manhattan last week. Could just be coincidence like when you see 11:11 on a clock twice, but reminded me of when the Andre the Giant stickers everywhere was a thing.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13509]

13 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Have you paid no attention to how Sinema and Manchin have behaved this past year?

"If the Dems followed my preferred legislative strategy" is a favorite new game a lot of people are playing, and they're all wrong about what would've or could've worked and how easy it would've been. This is very simple: Manchin and Sinema believe that their political futures depend on them being seen as mavericky types who will keep the party from going "too far left."

They're not interested in any of the substance of any legislation, whether it be BBB or voting rights. They're not interested in being team players. In fact, they're very interested in being seen as NOT team players.  Manchin wants to run again in West Virginia and thinks he has to be seen fighting the party a lot. Maybe he comes around on some version of BBB that gives West Virginia a lot of shit, but he's certainly not going to support voting rights for black people. Sinema doesn't want to give Biden a win on anything. She wants to kneecap his presidency because she wants to primary him. Yes, that's stupid and it's because she's fucking stupid.

You have to play with the cards you've been dealt. This Senate was close to being 51-49 Republican, and Biden then would have had to deal with a GOP majority AND Manchin/Sinema. 

There are ways in politics you can lose a vote but win the messaging. And yes, Manchin and Sinema create significant challenges in passing legislation but in these circumstances, you need to find common ground. Or Dems can go whine to the general public that it wasn't their fault they couldn't get anything done.

To me, the current Dem playbook is to cater to the far left progressive so they can say they tried. They can pat themselves on the back with these ideals when McConnell and McCarthy are leading Congress next year.

[wildcat09 29349]

4 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

To me, the current Dem playbook is to cater to the far left progressive so they can say they tried. 

It's amazing how many people say this and truly believe it despite it being absolute nonsense.  They've spent the better part of a year negotiating with Manchin and Sinema. Both of whom refuse to say what they want and continually move the goalposts. The progressives still folded and voted for the infrastructure bill.

It's two centrist senators who are 100% responsible for the Democrats' legislative disfunction. It's absolutely fucking ridiculous to blame it on the progressives. "Things aren't working so they must've gone too far left" isn't remotely substantive analysis. Be smarter.

Edited January 17, 2022 by wildcat09

[Nice Guy Eddie 13509]

6 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

It's amazing how many people say this and truly believe it despite it being absolute nonsense.  They've spent the better part of a year negotiating with Manhin and Sinema. Both of whom refuse to say what they want and continually move the goalposts. The progressives still folded and voted for the infrastructure bill.

It's two centrist senators who are 100% responsible for the Democrats' legislative disfunction. It's absolutely fucking ridiculous to blame it on the progressives. "Things aren't working so they must've gone too far left" isn't remotely substantive analysis. Be smarter.

So your solution is to lose every vote and hope for the best in November?

[wildcat09 29349]

I don't have a solution because there isn't one. Unless we want to talk about Biden going full Nixon and using the CIA and FBI to coerce them into cooperating. 

The really shitty part is that while Manchin might be generally right about the need to be seen opposing the party if he wants to win again, Sinema's political calculus is just completely broken. She seriously thinks she can kneecap the party and then get its Presidential nomination. It's the absolute dumbest, most self-destructive shit we've ever seen from a major American politician. 

[Goofyboy 3272]

So your solution is to lose every vote and hope for the best in November?

The solution for the party in November is to continue to the message that a centrist and a nut job and 50 republicans have zero interest in working together. Pound that message home, along with only needing two more senators to never have to deal with Machin and Sinema again.

It’s Manchin, Sinema and 50 pieces of shit Republicans that are stone walling any legislation other than military.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13509]

16 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

and then get its Presidential nomination. It's the absolute dumbest, most self-destructive shit we've ever seen from a major American politician. 

Where are you getting this idea? I would guess that she has the support of .1% of the Dem party. If even that.

[Gourmand 7774]

45 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

you need to find common ground.

It's amazing how self-described centrists/independents/'can't we all get along types always say this about Dems while ignoring the very obvious reality that this rule only applies to Democrats and never Republicans. Where are the moderate Republicans looking to find common ground. Where were those Republicans when they obstructed everything possible during the Obama administration, including refusing to fill a Supreme Court vacancy for over a fucking year over some made up nonsense and then rammed one through in thirteen days or whatever when the exact same circumstances arose four years later?

Your political instincts are not good.  

[wildcat09 29349]

8 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Where are you getting this idea? I would guess that she has the support of .1% of the Dem party. If even that.

It's the only way to make any sense of her behavior. She's currently nuking any chance she has at reelection for her Senate seat, but she doesn't need to win a primary in Arizona if she's running for President. Her message will be that Biden was the right candidate for 2020 and he ran on what needs to be done, working with Republicans, but that he abandoned that to cater too much to the progressives. The bipartisanship message has some appeal to undecided voters. Her campaign will have even less of a chance of succeeding than Tulsi Gabbard's campaign had, because nuking the entire party's legislative agenda is not a good way to win its primary, but she's surrounded herself with centrist advisers telling her it will work and corporate lobbyists who are showering her with money. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13509]

1 minute ago, Gourmand said:

It's amazing how self-described centrists/independents/'can't we all get along types always say this about Dems while ignoring the very obvious reality that this rule only applies to Democrats and never Republicans. Where are the moderate Republicans looking to find common ground. Where were those Republicans when they obstructed everything possible during the Obama administration, including refusing to fill a Supreme Court vacancy for over a fucking year over some made up nonsense and then rammed one through in thirteen days or whatever when the exact same circumstances arose four years later?

Your political instincts are not good.  

Uh, ok. I find similar criticism with the GOP as well but I normally vote Dem so I don't want to see the GOP in power a year from now. Biden, Pelosi and Schumer are handing this over. 

At some points, it's not about ideal but political realities. Biden and the Dems didn't have a mandate but are trying to govern like that did.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Nice Guy Eddie

[Gourmand 7774]

31 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I don't have a solution because there isn't one. Unless we want to talk about Biden going full Nixon and using the CIA and FBI to coerce them into cooperating. 

The really shitty part is that while Manchin might be generally right about the need to be seen opposing the party if he wants to win again, Sinema's political calculus is just completely broken. She seriously thinks she can kneecap the party and then get its Presidential nomination. It's the absolute dumbest, most self-destructive shit we've ever seen from a major American politician. 

Biden needs to use his executive powers like LBJ swinging his big dick. Weed initiatives would be helpful. Dems need to adopt weed legalization as part of their platform and make it a galvanizing issue to get people to vote in the same way Republicans use stupid jingoistic silliness to get their supporters to show up.

[wildcat09 29349]

2 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

It's amazing how self-described centrists/independents/'can't we all get along types always say this about Dems while ignoring the very obvious reality that this rule only applies to Democrats and never Republicans. Where are the moderate Republicans looking to find common ground. Where were those Republicans when they obstructed everything possible during the Obama administration, including refusing to fill a Supreme Court vacancy for over a fucking year over some made up nonsense and then rammed one through in thirteen days or whatever when the exact same circumstances arose four years later?

Your political instincts are not good.  

There isn't just no common ground with Republicans. There's no common ground with Manchin and Sinema. We know this because Biden has spent a fucking year trying to find common ground and they keep changing their demands. But corporate media political pundits time after time blame all Democratic disfunction on progressives, regardless of the merits of the argument, and people who don't think too hard about politics listen to them repeat it a lot and come to believe it.

[wildcat09 29349]

1 minute ago, Gourmand said:

Biden needs to use his executive powers like LBJ swinging his big dick. Weed initiatives would be helpful. Dems need to adopt weed legalization as part of their platform and make it a galvanizing issue to get people to vote in the same way Republicans use stupid jingoistic silliness to get their supporters to show up.

Oh I agree he should support weed legalization. I don't think Manchin and Sinema will allow even that to pass, though.

[Gourmand 7774]

1 minute ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

At some points, it's not about ideal but political realities. Biden and the Dems didn't have a mandate but are trying to govern like that did.

What are you talking about? Be specific because this is just the same old centrist nonsense I've heard about Democrats my entire life. 

[wildcat09 29349]

3 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Uh, ok. I find similar criticism with the GOP as well but I normally vote Dem so I don't want to see the GOP in power a year from now. Biden, Pelosi and Schumer are handing this over. 

At some points, it's not about ideal but political realities. Biden and the Dems didn't have a mandate but are trying to govern like that did.

This is just 100% not true. They have spent a year begging Manchin and Sinema to tell them what they'll support and have gotten nowhere.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13509]

Just now, wildcat09 said:

This is just 100% not true. They have spent a year begging Manchin and Sinema to tell them what they'll support and have gotten nowhere.

 

1 minute ago, Gourmand said:

What are you talking about? Be specific because this is just the same old centrist nonsense I've heard about Democrats my entire life. 

The the Dems don't have a Senate majority and should govern as such.  See what they can get from McConnell. Create simple bills and dare progressives, Manchin, Sinema and even McConnell to vote no. 

When you don't have a majority, you can't act like you do. 

And as mentioned above, stop trying to legislate. Govern by exec orders.

[Gourmand 7774]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

Oh I agree he should support weed legalization. I don't think Manchin and Sinema will allow even that to pass, though.

The point is he should be using his executive powers through the DEA to reschedule the classification of weed. He would probably lose with the activist judges on the Supreme Court, but it is an important step imo. Do that and cancel a shit load of student debt. Sinema and Manchin can't do anything about that.

[Dbeasy 15044]

9 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

This is just 100% not true. They have spent a year begging Manchin and Sinema to tell them what they'll support and have gotten nowhere.

But hasn’t it all been in the context of a $1.8-3T bill?

[wildcat09 29349]

There's nothing to "get" from Mitch McConnell. The fact that you'd even suggest otherwise makes me feel like I have to ask you if you smell toast right now.

If you want them to spend the next year having meaningless show votes on 100 different bills rather than meaningless show votes on one or two big bills, I guess that's as good a messaging strategy as any but there's not really any good data to indicate that shit like that matters at all. But none of this has anything to do with whether or not Biden has been "too far left" or acted as if he has a "mandate" or anything. He's done everything he possibly can to get Manchin and Sinema on board. He'd gladly let them write BBB if they'd say what they actually want it to include. But they've shifted the goalposts a dozen times (if not more) by now. If you don't grasp by now that they don't actually want anything to pass, I can't help you. 

[Gourmand 7774]

4 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

The the Dems don't have a Senate majority and should govern as such.  See what they can get from McConnell.

You know the answer here. What does it mean to "govern like you don't have a Senate majority" in an age where only one Senate Republican is even interested in an investigation into Jan 6th and the rest of them want to move on and not hold TFG accountable? The entire party has been hijacked by a lunatic authoritarian and you think the Dems can get anything from Republicans? McConnell is an obstructionist master and will always obstruct anything that can be remotely considered a win for Biden or the Democrats. He is not interested in policy-making, he is interested in power only. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13509]

2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

There's nothing to "get" from Mitch McConnell. The fact that you'd even suggest otherwise makes me feel like I have to ask you if you smell toast right now.

If you want them to spend the next year having meaningless show votes on 100 different bills rather than meaningless show votes on one or two big bills, I guess that's as good a messaging strategy as any but there's not really any good data to indicate that shit like that matters at all. But none of this has anything to do with whether or not Biden has been "too far left" or acted as if he has a "mandate" or anything. He's done everything he possibly can to get Manchin and Sinema on board. He'd gladly let them write BBB if they'd say what they actually want it to include. But they've shifted the goalposts a dozen times (if not more) by now. If you don't grasp by now that they don't actually want anything to pass, I can't help you. 

Build Back Better was a ridiculous legislative attempt. There are Democrats that don't want want much less 0 Republicans. Biden was asked to not be Trump so that's what he should be.

He doesn't have a mandate like Obama had in 2008. Stop trying to change everything. The failed attempts are going to lose the House & Senate. Do you realize that?

[wildcat09 29349]

5 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

He doesn't have a mandate like Obama had in 2008. Stop trying to change everything. The failed attempts are going to lose the House & Senate. Do you realize that?

This is the political analysis of a child. None of this even means anything.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

41 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Where are you getting this idea? I would guess that she has the support of .1% of the Dem party. If even that.

Well that would put her ahead of Kamalla...

[elfenix 34229]

23 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

See what they can get from McConnell.

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

7 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Build Back Better was a ridiculous legislative attempt. There are Democrats that don't want want much less 0 Republicans. Biden was asked to not be Trump so that's what he should be.

He doesn't have a mandate like Obama had in 2008. Stop trying to change everything. The failed attempts are going to lose the House & Senate. Do you realize that?

If they'd stuck to an infrastructure bill of actual physical infrastructure that would've, and should have been a slam dunk piece of legislation.  

[elfenix 34229]

1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

If they'd stuck to an infrastructure bill of actual physical infrastructure that would've, and should have been a slam dunk piece of legislation.  

uh, they passed that one already.

[elfenix 34229]

also, LOL at republicans who consider citizens to be human capital but don't think we should invest in us

Edited January 17, 2022 by elfenix

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, elfenix said:

uh, they passed that one already.

They wanted that physical infrastructure legislation linked with the human infrastructure legislation. That's what started all the monetary cost push back.

[hornmpa96 2618]

1 minute ago, elfenix said:

uh, they passed that one already.

Yes they did but the manner in which it was passed made it look like a loss.

I have no idea what the Ds could do better with Manchin/Sienna trying to stop most things, but the public back and forth has taken what should have been a positive (infrastructure week actually happened) and turned it into a lukewarm message at best.

[wildcat09 29349]

5 minutes ago, elfenix said:

uh, they passed that one already.

It's amazing how much of conversations about shit like this are just 100% vibes. "They literally did exactly what you said they should do already!" "Yes, but [insert meaningless gibberish unrelated to initial argument]!" Centrist arguments almost never have any factual basis.

[elfenix 34229]

4 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

They wanted that physical infrastructure legislation linked with the human infrastructure legislation. That's what started all the monetary cost push back.

manchin was never going to vote for bbb regardless of bif, and sinema isn't going to vote for anything because reasons.  no one gives a shit about cost, otherwise senators wouldn't trip over themselves to pass the $8,000,000,000,000 defense bill. 

[henrygandorf 29189]

all this "govern like you don't have a senate majority" or "mandate" or whatever the attitude you want to adopt is based largely on pre-2016 politics.

shit work different now.  that is to say, shit don't work at all.

voting rights extension in 2006 out front shoulda toldya.

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

1 hour ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

You have to play with the cards you've been dealt. This Senate was close to being 51-49 Republican, and Biden then would have had to deal with a GOP majority AND Manchin/Sinema. 

There are ways in politics you can lose a vote but win the messaging. And yes, Manchin and Sinema create significant challenges in passing legislation but in these circumstances, you need to find common ground. Or Dems can go whine to the general public that it wasn't their fault they couldn't get anything done.

To me, the current Dem playbook is to cater to the far left progressive so they can say they tried. They can pat themselves on the back with these ideals when McConnell and McCarthy are leading Congress next year.

I’d be willing to bet that behind Manchin and Sinema there are other moderate Democrats that don’t want to really vote on these bills. For sure they didn’t want to be on the record for BBB. Manchin just took the heat and he was fine doing that because it secures his re-election. This column sums it up pretty well. 
 

 

Same thing for Sinema. Last poll I saw had Biden approval rating in AZ of 42%. 35% with independents. I don’t get why posters here think that these Senators should or will just rubber stamp whatever the President wants. 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

[henrygandorf 29189]

also lol to anyone saying there are 50 republican no votes on these because the bills are "too progressive".  

[RomaVicta 29904]

42 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

all this "govern like you don't have a senate majority" or "mandate" or whatever the attitude you want to adopt is based largely on pre-2016 politics.

shit work different now.  that is to say, shit don't work at all.

voting rights extension in 2006 out front shoulda toldya.

Yep. The game is no longer policy debate. 

We're watching a man with a hockey mask and axe busting his way through the front door being challenged to a chess match by the resident. "Nobody ever beats me at chess! I'm very good! I'll even let you play white. Make your move!"

This very formidable brain slides right out of the hole in the cleaved skull.

The second resident shouts, "you're cheating!" before falling under the blade.

The new resident washes the axe and laughs.

Edit to add: It increasingly looks like it will come down to where the Army stands. We'll need our own Ataturk.

Edited January 17, 2022 by RomaVicta

[JimmyJames 12271]

Sinema is being paid by corporations and the ultra wealthy to obstruct the Democratic Party agenda. That’s it. It’s not anything more complicated than that.
 

She ain’t running for president. She ain’t even running for senator in 4 years. This is all just a cash grab, now and post senate career, and lol at the atheist wearing a cross during her absolutely pathetic senate floor speech. She’s the biggest fraud in the party. 

[RomaVicta 29904]

5 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Sinema is being paid by corporations and the ultra wealthy to obstruct the Democratic Party agenda. That’s it. It’s not anything more complicated than that.
 

She ain’t running for president. She ain’t even running for senator in 4 years. This is all just a cash grab, now and post senate career, and lol at the atheist wearing a cross during her absolutely pathetic senate floor speech. She’s the biggest fraud in the party. 

I was totally fooled by appearances. Now, you'd think it was her lifelong dream to seduce Mitch McConnell.

[CooterBrown 18005]

There isn't just no common ground with Republicans. There's no common ground with Manchin and Sinema. We know this because Biden has spent a fucking year trying to find common ground and they keep changing their demands. But corporate media political pundits time after time blame all Democratic disfunction on progressives, regardless of the merits of the argument, and people who don't think too hard about politics listen to them repeat it a lot and come to believe it.

There’s no common ground to be found because Manchin and Sinema are being paid not to cooperate.

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

14 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Sinema is being paid by corporations and the ultra wealthy to obstruct the Democratic Party agenda. That’s it. It’s not anything more complicated than that.
 

 

What evidence do you have to back up this assertion?

[JimmyJames 12271]

5 minutes ago, Immaculate Vibes said:

What evidence do you have to back up this assertion?

Try googling it. Here’s just one article. There are money more. Also it’s plain fucking common sense. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/11/manchin-sinema-campaign-contributions-republican-donors.amp

 

[JimmyJames 12271]

“The Times talks to some billionaires who are traditionally Republican donors who openly say they are giving money to Sinema and Manchin to help their efforts to trim the Democratic agenda. Manchin and Sinema have also received cash from donors with ties to the finance and pharmaceutical industries and they were key to changing portions of the social spending bill that the industry opposed.”
 

 

You have to be one really naive idiot to not see what’s happening here. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

“Turns out that being an essential vote to get Democratic initiatives through Congress is good for the bottom line. Sens. Joe Manchin of West Virginia and Kyrsten Sinema of Arizona may be getting lots of hate from Democrats for their successful efforts to tone down President Joe Biden’s agenda, but they’re getting a lot of love from across the aisle. And that love translates into big donations from unlikely sources, reports the New York Times. Many of the donors that are opening their wallets for Sinema and Manchin have never donated to Democrats before and are giving the money to the two senators because they approve of the way they are managing to reshape Democratic priorities.”

[JimmyJames 12271]

Those two should just come out and admit it. Especially the cross wearing supposed atheist. By far the biggest fraud in congress.
 

At least the republicans admit to being the assholes they are and don’t hide behind incredibly pathetic senate floor speeches like sinema. 

[retread 2951]

28 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Yep. The game is no longer policy debate...

Edit to add: It increasingly looks like it will come down to where the Army stands. We'll need our own Ataturk.

How do you see this playing out (worst case)? How does Trump throttle any dissenters in the military?

[henrygandorf 29189]

13 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Try googling it. Here’s just one article. There are money more.

what you did there.  i see it.

[Gourmand 7774]

29 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

I was totally fooled by appearances. Now, you'd think it was her lifelong dream to seduce Mitch McConnell.

She is a perfect example of why you cannot trust these "we need a third party!!' hacks.