2022 Poker: Ship it!

[blacklab 11,929]

BigO featuring Mr Lee at Red Star tonight. 

[chitwood 155]

On 5/6/2022 at 7:27 PM, blacklab said:

BigO featuring Mr Lee at Red Star tonight. 

Damn I wish I could have made that one. 

[blacklab 11,929]

He brought his luckbox and won several hands he shouldn't have but still dumped at least $4k from 7pm-4am.

Last hand I play he gets head up with Lakeway Mark and on the river pots and Mark calls by throwing out a chip. Mr. Lee sees he lost and then claims he didn't pot it. Floor comes over and makes him pay. Mark said it happened two more times after I left.

I ended up losing $300 on the night but consider it a victory as I went the first two hours without winning a hand and was down $800 at that point.

[AUS-97HORN 11,762]

3 hours ago, blacklab said:

Last hand I play he gets head up with Lakeway Mark and on the river pots and Mark calls by throwing out a chip. Mr. Lee sees he lost and then claims he didn't pot it. Floor comes over and makes him pay. Mark said it happened two more times after I left.

 

I may have posted this back in the 2019 thread couldnt find it.  but I was in the $1/3 game with Mr Lee at APP, I had started with $300, and had around $425 ish in front when I got dealt AKo.  I dont remember positions other than I had position on Mr Lee. He had around $400 give or take in front.   I do know  he raised to either $10 or 15, and I re- raised to either $35 or 40 , everyone clears and he calls. 

 

*quick insert here*

Now an important side note to this hand is the literal previous time I had played with him, I had 99 pre, he had position on me, and i had 3 bet pre flop to $50 pre. he called all else leave.  Flop was KKx (under 9). I led out for $40 or 50, he called. Turn was another under card. and I bet out again around the same amount. he raised to $150. which i called. river was something over a 9 but not an A or another K.  So I check and he checked.  I am pretty sure I've won the hand because of that. 

Prior to this hand at APP I had ALWAYS played (casinos, home games, everywhere) where whoever bet last has to show first. 

So I am waiting for him to show, and he tells me I have to show.  I say I didnt bet last, he tells me I have to show first, and Im really fucking confused- dealer finally tells me at APP if it goes check check on the river, OOP has to show first... 

uhhhhh..... ok.  so I flip over 99 expecting it to be good. and Mr Lee flips over AK.....  Come the fuck on man, that was clearly fucking good after the back and forth bullshit.  dude was being a fucking dick just to be a fucking dick.  Left shortly after.

*so back to the hand at issue related to Blacklab's story. important to note, since it was $1/3, we were using white dollar chips that were in play.

so Ive got AKo and the flop comes total undercard rainbow rag. 

Mr Lee leads out for $30-40. I call.  turn is another mid range rag.

He bets out $75 and since its Mr Lee I call that.  River is a non-flush completing way undercard.   I think the board is either 10 or J  high. 

Mr Lee grabs a white chip flips it into the air, it hits in the middle of the table and there is very small partial but CLEARLY pregnant pause millsecond before he realizes he tossed in $1 and says "All in."  Im not trying to claim it was 3 or 4 seconds later, it might have only been .1 seconds, but it sure as shit was after that fucking chip hit the middle.  

I then argue 2 seperate points A: $1 isnt a legal bet so that means he checked or B: that $1 bet has to be the table minimum of $3.  Floor comes over, no one on the fucking table will say if Mr Lee said all in before or after the chip hit the felt, the dealer doesnt know....   Floor says  "well we know its Mr Lee and he would never just throw a chip out there, he knows the rules so it has to be an all in bet.  

I pointed out that a single chip only counts if you are fucking calling, HE was betting and that he knows the fucking rules better than all of us.  It was clear as day his brain had a disconnect and he knew damn well he hadnt said all in before that chip the middle. 

got told tough shit.

Im fucking pissed, but now I am REALLY fucking pissed....  The whole hand just looked like a Mr Lee bully special.  There was no reasonable hand that could have a straight, but this crazy fuck could be doing this with a pair of 2s. 

so I realize I am probably only good 33% of the time here. But I dont care, I tell the floor to go ahead and get me a god damned refill of $300 because I flip a dollar into the pot.  and I show the AK. 

he slides his hand toward the muck.... but I am so fucking pissed that he had tried the "im a feeble old man" move that I tell the dealer to show that shit, dealer without hesitation flips over total bullshit Mr Lee rags.  Lee stars bitching and I told him that was for the 99 hand last night.

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by AUS-97HORN

[dirtonia 269]

If it goes check check on river heads up OOP shows first 100% of the time, at least anywhere I’ve played.

[Lurch 5,930]

Same. Also, I’ve seen a ton of one chip all ins. That said, seems like mr Lee is an asshole so great call, nice hand

[TXSooner518 2,438]

Same also. Also I’d never ask to see the hand in that spot bc if he has some random dickhead pair that he missed or whatever now you lost the whole pot. I do enjoy a good spite action though so can’t fault you too much.

[AUS-97HORN 11,762]

4 hours ago, Lurch said:

Same. Also, I’ve seen a ton of one chip all ins.

I have too, but they always say all in and toss in a chip, or do it as the chip is being tossed.  This was diff. He didnt speak until after the bet hit the felt.

 

3 hours ago, TXSooner518 said:

Same also. Also I’d never ask to see the hand in that spot bc if he has some random dickhead pair that he missed or whatever now you lost the whole pot. I do enjoy a good spite action though so can’t fault you too much.

totally agree, but its also super-rare for him to "forget" he had a pair. 

I was just so pissed at him, the night previous and this this hand, trying to act all fucking innocent... as BL will tell you, that MFer has no issue playing with $20k at risk and still playing the same way. Hes not innocent. 

But he brings so much money and action to a game where people will come there specifically to play him,  that the places cant (or wont) easily rule against him without hard hard evidence.

Because if he gets pissed, he can, and will (and has) taken his action elsewhere.

 

[bigup2dahorns 3,343]

Is he known as a good tipper?

[AUS-97HORN 11,762]

another fun Mr. Lee story from my time at APP.  playing $1/2 game  he is the 10 seat, I am squeezed into the 9.

Mr Lee was there before me, but after several hands that I have rags and muck, he keeps lifting his whole hand up 2-3 inches so he can see his cards, in full view of me seeing his hand as well. .

I casually mention something along the lines of "Hey Mr Lee, I think you are lifting your cards a bit too high, I might have had a glimpse of your hand"

he tells me in no uncertain terms to STFU and mind my own business.....  OK then.

 

He literally makes zero effort to hide his hand for the next 30 mins.  at first I tried to glance away, but I cant avoid it, MFer is literally showing me his hand every fucking hand. 

I keep getting garbage dealt to me where I would LOVE to play hands with him, But I get dealt K2o and he gets K7, or he gets J2 and Ive got 27o, or 58o or whatever.  Plus everyone else at the table is betting and raising with him generally calling or 3 betting with that shit. and he keeps flopping shit. 

So for like 30 mins he goes on a massive heater and all I can do is miserably watch as he has me dominated pre and I decide its not worth calling $75-100 pre being a 20% dog, especially since as I showed above, dude loves to fucking shove all in on the river, and if I dont get my 3 outer before that, I cant fucking hero call with the worst hand.  Plus hes actually someone who will call with K high every so often. so I cant do the all in bluff on the river unless the board is stupid scary.

Finally got it all in pre with KK vs another player and Ive got about $500 in front. Mr Lee covers me.  

I am later/mid position. get dealt JTs vs 9To or similar, I do my standard $10-15 initial raise, he re-raised to $30. everyone else clears.  I happily call finally having the better hand.

Flop is T6s7s.  I bet out $75. he calls, turn is a red Q.  I bet $100, he calls, river is a 4.  

I bet out $75 because I dont think he will call a shove here.  but he may try to bluff... which he does, he shoves, I snap call, and show. and double up.   

So I lose quite a bit on another hand against him where he rivers whatever he needed to beat me, and I had done a similar betting line while ahead the whole time.  and hes pissed when I dont call his river all in.

So I have roughly $700 in front, hes got around $600  I get 98cc and hes got QQ.  I do a small raise to $10 because Mr Lee loves to get cagey with large pairs and tends to just call with them.

However, this time he actually makes it $30/35 here and everyone clears out, and I decide its worth the $20/25 to try and outflop him.  Flop is either 9 or 8 high with 2 clubs and I had a backdoor inside straight draw as well.  

I check, he bets maybe $60-70.  and with the pair and draw against that exact hand. I call. Turn is Qc. so its bingo time.   I bet out $100 (knowing I am calling an all in, but trying to get him to raise) he just calls.   River is a non club non pair 5.

I bet $200 and he insta shoves. I call, say flush and he says theres no possibility of a flush.... (narrator: there was)  felt him and he's pissed, and leaving mumbling about a bullshit turn card.   as he leaves he says something like "the cards went against me"  and again because I am an asshole... I say "yeah its almost like I knew your hand"

 

[blacklab 11,929]

4 hours ago, bigup2dahorns said:

Is he known as a good tipper?

he tips well

[Lurch 5,930]

$2/5 NLH

I open UTG1 w A7ss. HJ makes it $75. BTN calls. Both are solid regs. Both have my $1k covered. I call. $225 pot

Ks8s5h. Checks to BTN who makes it $150. A check raise seems reasonable here (it was my plan vs HJ) but I slow down and call. HJ folds. $525 pot.

6d. Damn I wish I’d check raised. Now I’m proper fucked. I check, he bets $500.

Fold, call, jam $775?

[TXSooner518 2,438]

What did you open to pre?

C/r flop seems good.

As played, might donk turn, but as further played, we have to fold now unless BTN gets way OOL way often. We aren't getting proper odds to draw unless all of our flush outs and ace outs are good, which is too optimistic. Annoying to fold a good amount of equity, which is a peril of playing meadoker hands OOP against good players, we don't get to realize our equity often enough. 

[Lurch 5,930]

Sorry, standard $20 open at this table, and his $75 3bet was common as well. Nothing pre was a flag

[Irieguy 1,059]

@AUS-97HORN it’s pretty tough to misplay the turn when you know your opponent’s hand but you managed to do it. 👏👏👏

*The correct play is to check call the turn and go allin on any non board pairing river. Duh. 

[Irieguy 1,059]

I’m still laughing at @AUS-97HORN sharing a hand that he butchered. For anybody wondering, if you have decided to take advantage of knowing your opponent’s hand you have one goal: get as much money as possible when you know your opponent is DEAD. Not get money in on the turn when he has a 23% of winning. 0%. It’s a simple concept but obviously some people miss it. 

[JesusSweatDuck 17,781]

Any recommendations for a reputable online site?

[Irieguy 1,059]

22 minutes ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

Any recommendations for a reputable online site?

If you are willing to use Bitcoin, Ignition Poker is my favorite. Soft fields and fast payouts. And all players are anonymous which is nice. 

https://www.ignitioncasino.eu/welcome/PCB8BNK/join?extcmpid=rafcopy

[Lurch 5,930]

What did you open to pre?
C/r flop seems good.
As played, might donk turn, but as further played, we have to fold now unless BTN gets way OOL way often. We aren't getting proper odds to draw unless all of our flush outs and ace outs are good, which is too optimistic. Annoying to fold a good amount of equity, which is a peril of playing meadoker hands OOP against good players, we don't get to realize our equity often enough. 

I decided that I blocked all the likely straight and flush draws, putting him then on K8s, K5s, 88, 55 or AK.

I determined I had 9 flush outs plus 6 straight outs, but then taking out 5 of spades as he’d boat up with it some 15%ish of the time. Thus 14 solid outs, 29%

I could jam, paying $775 to win $2075 (37%) so that would be a terrible call.

However, I have the option of calling. I can presume that literally no river card will prevent him from calling my remaining stack of $275 if I shove when I hit. Therefor I can actually use implied odds to say I’m paying just the $500 call to potentially win $1850 should I hit the river and jam. Only need to hit 27% of the time, and as shown above I was at 29% vs his perceived range.

Thoughts?

[TXSooner518 2,438]

Check-folding A river? Jamming 5s river?

One issue is a solid reg may be able to make a good laydown if he sees a solid reg check call 2/3 of his stack on turn then jam when draw hits.

[Lurch 5,930]

Check-folding A river? Jamming 5s river?

One issue is a solid reg may be able to make a good laydown if he sees a solid reg check call 2/3 of his stack on turn then jam when draw hits.

Check Fold A river per my read. Have to check call 5s though

Folding a 1/7 pot river shove with any of those hands would be super skilled. I don’t think these guys are at that level. I sure as fuck am not if I was in his shoes

[TXSooner518 2,438]

Check Fold A river per my read. Have to check call 5s though

Folding a 1/7 pot river shove with any of those hands would be super skilled. I don’t think these guys are at that level. I sure as fuck am not if I was in his shoes

Might as well jam 5s right? Otherwise we are just letting him check his 2p behind and jam all his boats. If he can’t fold 2p, gotta jam.

I wanna run some math on it. Currently playing my standard cash session at 1/2.

I straddle button two limps I go 19 w QQ. Two calls. K72 ck to me I 20 one call. Turn 2 he ck call 35. River 6. Ck ck. He win K8.

Open 78hh, loose guy small 3b I call. Flop 543 one heart he 100 lol.

Open 44, KQx flop.

Open JT to 10, guy 3b to 21, 5 to flop, 964.

3 limps, I complete SB with 64, guy 10 on top all call, Q98 flop.

Only hands I’ve played in 2 hours. Every other hand 85o or like A3o when someone goes 22 pre. Zero pots.

[Lurch 5,930]

I straddle button two limps I go 19

What the everloving fuck

[TXSooner518 2,438]

What the everloving fuck

Lol why? Straddle was $4 I threw 3 nickels on top.

Win a pot! Go 15 on button with A9 get two calls. Flop QJT. I go 35 one call. Turn T. Ck ck. River 4. Opp ck. He loves calling. I cry ck and he has K8.

Heater alert! Open AsQh to 10, three calls. Flop Q42ss. I 25, one call. Turn Ts he ck call 50. River 8s. He ck call 80 and shows 54ss.

[TXSooner518 2,438]

Wowwwww lol dude just snapped AKo when 50yo passive dude ripped $460 in pre. It was, uh, no good.

[TXSooner518 2,438]

Terribad loose guy opens to 27, two calls. I go 150 with AQ, terribad calls with like 40 back lol. I’m gonna put him in on any flop, but Q22 works nicely. He has KQo and we hold.

Win a nice pot with QQ also before game breaks. In for $400, out for $717, no complaints.

[TXSooner518 2,438]

Also a lady was sweating her friend on slots while snacking on *checks notes* corn on the cob.

[Bookman 4,639]

7 hours ago, TXSooner518 said:

Terribad loose guy opens to 27, two calls. I go 150 with AQ, terribad calls with like 40 back lol. I’m gonna put him in on any flop, but Q22 works nicely. He has KQo and we hold.

Win a nice pot with QQ also before game breaks. In for $400, out for $717, no complaints.

I'm shocked he didn't have A-2 suited.

[TXSooner518 2,438]

I'm shocked he didn't have A-2 suited.

Not as shocked as I am esp since he had mentioned multiple times how twos and kings were hot so should play them all.

[bigup2dahorns 3,343]

[Lurch 5,930]

Saw this. Not a fan. Our $5/10 is uncapped and it keeps a ton of us as $2/5 regs. On several occasions we’ve upgraded our $2/5 to $5/10 game while the stacks were reasonable and it was a much more enjoyable game imo

[bigup2dahorns 3,343]

Agree. When I’ve played $5/10 I do it at Bellagio where it has a reasonable cap. The $10/20 game at Bellagio is uncapped and I never made the jump to it.

[Lurch 5,930]

In our room, $5/10 is time rake so the room doesn’t have any incentive to make it more enticing. They’re happy with their higher per hand rake at $2/5. Sucks

[TXSooner518 2,438]

On 5/10/2022 at 12:54 PM, Lurch said:

 

I decided that I blocked all the likely straight and flush draws, putting him then on K8s, K5s, 88, 55 or AK.

I determined I had 9 flush outs plus 6 straight outs, but then taking out 5 of spades as he’d boat up with it some 15%ish of the time. Thus 14 solid outs, 29%

I could jam, paying $775 to win $2075 (37%) so that would be a terrible call.

However, I have the option of calling. I can presume that literally no river card will prevent him from calling my remaining stack of $275 if I shove when I hit. Therefor I can actually use implied odds to say I’m paying just the $500 call to potentially win $1850 should I hit the river and jam. Only need to hit 27% of the time, and as shown above I was at 29% vs his perceived range.

Thoughts?

 

You have 32.5% equity vs a range of K8s, K5s, 88, 55, AKs, AKo. Is this player really flatting $75 pre with K8 or K5?  If he is, I think we have to also bake in some out-of-line equity. Also, can't he then have K7s? K6s? KQ?  QJ/QT/JT/65 of spades? AA?

I think you are underestimating your opp's fold chances when you check-call turn then jam when draw hits. 2 of your 15 outs put both the flush and a 4-straight on board. What are you check-calling $500 turn and now jamming for 1/7 pot on a 3-flush, 4-straight board that AK beats?

But let's work from your assumptions.  

If we fold, our stack is $775, $0 EV.

If we jam, we make a pot of $2075 which we win 32.5% of so our stack is on average $674, -$101 EV.

If we call, we will hit a spade or straight card 15/46 of the time or 32.6% of the time. If we jam the other 32.6% of the time (I def think we have to jam the 5s and 6s, otherwise we just let him check back when he has less than a boat and stack us when he has a boat), we win always 13/15 of the time (86.7%) and win 67% of time on 5s river and 60% of time on 6s river. 

So 67.4% of the time our stack is $275 as we check fold our misses. 28.2% of the time our stack is $2075 as we jam when we hit other than 5s or 6s and get called and win. 1.6% of the time our stack is $2075 as we jam on 5s and get called and win. 0.8% of the time our stack is $0 as we jam on 5s and get called and lose. 1.3% of the time our stack is $2075 as we jam on 6s and get called and win. 0.7% of the time our stack is $0 as we jam on 6s and get called and lose. That adds up to:

31.1% of time $2075 and 1.5% $0.  (.675 x 275) + (.311 x 2075) + (.015 x 0) = 645.33 + 185.63 = $830.96, +$56 EV. Note that if opp folds AK on river that's going to be 40% of the time he folds when we ht, which would reduce our EV roughly to +$30.  So it's pretty close, and I'd say better than my initial impression, and profitable if your assumptions are correct.

[Lurch 5,930]

I call the $500. $1525 pot

Js. Nailed it. I had prepped my chips to look as if the incoming jam was the plan all along, so I quickly slide them out. It took a second for the opponent to see the distinction between my turn call stack and this last $275 river jam.

He says “I know you have it, but I can’t fold for $275” and shows his AKo as we drag the $2075 pot

I can’t recall a similarly advanced play I’ve made in the past. I obviously didn’t do the depth of the math Sooner has shared in the moment, but the thought process was there, so that’s a mental “win” for me, regardless of the results

[Bookman 4,639]

I have an etiquette question.

I was in a home game with complete strangers. One guy was a bit older (60+) and obviously had bad eyesight. A few times, when I wasn't in the hand, I read the board to him because he clearly had difficulty seeing it, even though they were jumbo Copag cards and he was in the middle of the table. One time he called a river bet and said "I didn't see the flush." 

Fast forward an hour or two, and the older guy raised preflop, bet the flop and turn in position, and then faced a river donk jam on a four-heart board. He called, his opponent said "straight, do you have a flush?" He said "no" and maybe he mucked his hand but right in front of him.

I did not think he had mucked, and I said "You don't have a heart?" He checked and he did, indeed, have a flush.

His opponent threw a fit, saying he had already mucked. Maybe he did or didn't, but the guy was mad at me for saying anything. Did I breach etiquette there? What if I had said something like "there are four hearts out there"?

 

[TXSooner518 2,438]

Tough because of the eyesight thing but should definitely never say something like “four hearts on board” or “wow no one has a heart?” When hands are tabled, must ensure they are read correctly. But before tabled, no. The old guy should definitely just table his hand every time at showdown.

Also, opponent is a bitch bc he basically already mentioned the flush also so he shouldn’t be salty at you about it. If he said “straight” and old man goes “mmf” and kind of pitches his cards and you said “wow no heart?” or something that’s worse.

[blacklab 11,929]

Is there anything in life better than playing in a tournament 8 hours, outlasting 124 people and finishing 20th when top 15 get paid?

[AUS-97HORN 11,762]

41 minutes ago, blacklab said:

Is there anything in life better than playing in a tournament 8 hours, outlasting 124 people and finishing 20th when top 15 get paid?

uh yeah.... finishing 16th in the same tournament?  

[Lurch 5,930]

I’ve been bubble or edge of bubble so many damn times. I wonder if my strategy somehow lends itself to that outcome. It’s so incredibly frustrating, especially when as you walk to the parking lot you pass the juicy cash games you could have invested your time in instead

And you always have the same thought: “if I had just won THAT hand, I’d be amongst the chip leaders right now”

[TexArcher 37,774]

Can somebody give me the Cliff's Notes on how Ignition works with buy-ins and cash-outs?

I used to play a shit ton online back in the day and had a couple grand on Stars and Full Tilt when the bad thing happened.  I'd like to get back into it, but not if there's a chance of losing a couple grand again, ya know?

Edit: yes, I play live, but I can't play 70 hands an hour times 8 tables and they don't have those magnificent single table SNGs...

Edited May 19, 2022 by TexArcher

[Lurch 5,930]

I stopped a few years ago, but it was all bitcoin when I last played. Fairly straight forward

Just assume you’re playing with cheaters (RTA and collusion) and can’t win long term unless you are too

[TexArcher 37,774]

8 minutes ago, Lurch said:

I stopped a few years ago, but it was all bitcoin when I last played. Fairly straight forward

Just assume you’re playing with cheaters (RTA and collusion) and can’t win long term unless you are too

Well, I was winning online back in the day.  Not huge, around 9 to 10 BB per 100 hands and 16-18% ROI on SNG's.  Had no trouble grinding out a few grand a year and enjoyed it.

But I was also using Poker Tracker, which seems impossible with the anonymity on Ignition.  Also seems like it would be impossible to note the obvious colluders and avoid them.  Etc...

[deech 2,275]

14 hours ago, Lurch said:

I’ve been bubble or edge of bubble so many damn times. I wonder if my strategy somehow lends itself to that outcome. It’s so incredibly frustrating, especially when as you walk to the parking lot you pass the juicy cash games you could have invested your time in instead

And you always have the same thought: “if I had just won THAT hand, I’d be amongst the chip leaders right now”

The week I played the main has for the most part the final week that I played tournament poker.  I've played one or two small buy-in tournaments with friends for fun, but in general - I haven't played a tournament for five years.  I have no regrets.  Much prefer the juicy cash games.

[Lurch 5,930]

The week I played the main has for the most part the final week that I played tournament poker.  I've played one or two small buy-in tournaments with friends for fun, but in general - I haven't played a tournament for five years.  I have no regrets.  Much prefer the juicy cash games.

I’m pretty much there, too. In great part because the better I become at cash, the less appealing a tourney’s payout is. Those with buyins less than $400 make no sense at all, and those between $400 and $1k are debatable given the super low probability of me landing a significant score.

[Lurch 5,930]

$2/5 w $700

UTG $10 straddle. MP and BTN call. SB (young solid reg) makes it $50. I call BB w Td9d. Straddle folds, others call. $210 pot

AsThTc. SB checks. I make it $100. Only SB calls. $410 pot.

Jc. SB checks, I make it $200, leaving $350 behind. He jams putting me all in.

Call $350 to win $1510 pot? (23.1%)

[CBT 1,282]

Snap call and spike a 9.

[Bookman 4,639]

Did  he have A-A or A-T?

[Lurch 5,930]

KQss. I snapped called missed. Dammit

[BillyGoatHill 4,312]

15 hours ago, Lurch said:

KQss. I snapped called missed. Dammit

We went to the same school of poker for the turn and river (4 outs).....Run Better 😀