Black Monday NFL 2022 thread

[Beau Vine 54254]

12 hours ago, Gourmand said:

The fact the Texans hired David Culley, fired him after one year, then brought in Josh McCown to interview for an NFL head coaching gig despite having never coached in college or the NFL is batshit insane and imo proves his point. 

Come on, Josh McCown was an assistant coach for the high-flying Rusk High School Eagles!!!  Not many candidates have *THAT* on their resumes!  Also, one of his WR's dad posts here regularly.

Also, I don't get how deciding to hire someone before you're done interviewing candidates is evidence of racial discrimination.  It sucks, but it happens all the time in the real world, even in situations without issues of race.

[Don Johnson 4754]

Marvin Lewis and Mike Tomlin were/have been HC's for 16 and 15 years.  Combined, they've hired 16 coordinators and 2 were minority (both by Lewis).  Those 2 coordinators represent 4 total seasons out of 62 possible (OC and DC for 31 total seasons between the two).

While Kyle Shanahan has been a HC for 5 seasons and all 3 coordinators that he has employed in his tenure have been minority.  Outside of being his own OC for four years, he has never not had a minority coordinator.

[Beau Vine 54254]

1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

It's totally appalling and outrageous that for the ~150 or so positions available in the 31 teams that are private, that owners interview and hire who they want for any rationale they want!

Do you know who came up with the Rooney Rule?  The NFL owners themselves.  

Just kidding, it was a mandate shoved down their throats by Joe Biden.

[6th Street 6414]

I think Houston's issue speaks more to their own ineptitude rather than racism.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Brothahorn said:

But is he really though? Or are they just more 'we need to interview a black guy' interviews? Like supposedly what happened with the Giants? Or what the Texans did to Hines Ward. Remember when Sherm Lewis got an interview with the Cowboys?

I was never a big fan if the Rooney Rule because of the fraud that it puts in the hiring process. I understand the intent but it was almost an impossible goal. A prejudiced/racist owner isn't going to suddenly see the light because you forced them to interview a minority. They are going to go through the motions and move on. And that can be more disrespectful to the applicant than not even getting the interview. How long has the rule been around? How many interviews have been done? And look at the results.

Hopefully as more minorities get in coordinator positions (especially on the offensive side) that will open things up. Plus, they will have opportunities for their kids to work the system. Other than that that, unless the players start making some real noise(and be willing to make financial sacrifices) I'm not sure how to solve the issue.

Also, not every hiring decision is based on race, like the Eric Bienemy saga. So that adds another layer to the onion. You don't need something stupid like a quota. But most of us know damn well there is more than one black coach out there who is capable of running a team just like the majority of his white counterparts.

I think Flores very much would have been scooped up by the end of this week without the suit. My impression of him after Dolphins fired him was that they were nuts, and he’d be scooped up within a week even despite internal tension with players (I heard Tua, and don’t put any stock into that). I absolutely believe he would’ve been hired again. And yes, he’s gonna witness the incestuous rotating door of white guy retreads/sons/family. But he still would’ve remained in the game. 

I don’t think his sentiments are wrong. But he won’t prove anything nefarious going on with any of the Dolphins, Broncos or Giants. His suit will be a financial disaster for him, and will likely lead to a revamped Rooney-type Rule. And that will fail because owners and GMs will ultimately hire whoever they want for their team. 

There are about 8-10 head coaches I would want to be my pro team’s coach. Bienemy and Leftwich aren’t there for me yet. Two of them are Tomlin and pre-suit Flores. It’s a shame what he’s done. I guess I admire him, but he threw away a career and nothing will change. 

[Slacks 6821]

I was referred to as "articulate" yesterday by someone who means well and is attempting to help me find a leadership role after being juked three times in the last five years.

Serious question... Do white men refer to each other as articulate often?  I never hear it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Gray Slacks

[Catdaddyhorn 3446]

4 minutes ago, Snacks said:

I was referred to as "articulate" yesterday by someone who means well and is attempting to help me find a leadership role after being juked three times in the last five years.

Serious question... Do white men refer to each other as articulate often?  I never hear it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Gray Slacks

You may be in possession of some of the necessities... according to them. 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Catdaddyhorn

[Slacks 6821]

He has a point... I do lack bouyancy. I am a non-floating summamabitch.

[closetohumping 17449]

16 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

I think Flores very much would have been scooped up by the end of this week without the suit. My impression of him after Dolphins fired him was that they were nuts, and he’d be scooped up within a week even despite internal tension with players (I heard Tua, and don’t put any stock into that). I absolutely believe he would’ve been hired again. And yes, he’s gonna witness the incestuous rotating door of white guy retreads/sons/family. But he still would’ve remained in the game. 

I don’t think his sentiments are wrong. But he won’t prove anything nefarious going on with any of the Dolphins, Broncos or Giants. His suit will be a financial disaster for him, and will likely lead to a revamped Rooney-type Rule. And that will fail because owners and GMs will ultimately hire whoever they want for their team. 

There are about 8-10 head coaches I would want to be my pro team’s coach. Bienemy and Leftwich aren’t there for me yet. Two of them are Tomlin and pre-suit Flores. It’s a shame what he’s done. I guess I admire him, but he threw away a career and nothing will change. 

Guessing some lawyer is taking the suit pro bono just for the resume bump or exposure.

[Don Johnson 4754]

2 minutes ago, closetohumping said:

Guessing some lawyer is taking the suit pro bono just for the resume bump or exposure.

 

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Don Johnson

[closetohumping 17449]

9 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

You may be in possession of some of the necessities... according to them. 

 

 

Ole Dominique still hating on Josh Allen?

[Catdaddyhorn 3446]

9 minutes ago, closetohumping said:

Ole Dominique still hating on Josh Allen?

He probably was a few years ago, back when Allen was completing passes at a 53% rate and throwing more INTs than TDs, but he called Allen a god the other day so I'm guessing he changed his mind as Allen improved. New data often results in new conclusions. 

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Catdaddyhorn

[closetohumping 17449]

8 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

He probably was a few years ago, back when Allen was completing passes at a 53% rate and throwing more INTs than TDs, but he called Allen a god the other day so I'm guessing he changed his mind as Allen improved. New data often results in new conclusions. 

 

 Or even 2020. 

 

https://itsgame7.com/will-espn-fire-domonique-foxworth-for-racist-josh-allen-comments/

[Beau Vine 54254]

19 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

 

 

This dude has gotten even more jaded since he left The Cure.

[Harrison Bergeron 1798]

35 minutes ago, Snacks said:

I was referred to as "articulate" yesterday by someone who means well and is attempting to help me find a leadership role after being juked three times in the last five years.

Serious question... Do white men refer to each other as articulate often?  I never hear it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Gray Slacks

Attempting to be serious ... I hear "executive presence" a lot, which I have always interpreted as "articulate."

[Texzilla58 4738]

I can’t comment on the ins and outs of Flores complaint, but as someone who is following the Saints Head a coaching search, it’s clear they are going to hire Dennis Allen, and everyone knows it.  They have met with Brian Flores, and will meet with Aaron Glenn today, but that’s all a formality. 
 
The Rooney rule is obviously just window dressing.  That’s not a comment with judgement.  It’s just a fact.
More broadly, the NFL will literally do anything to avoid opening their books, so if push comes to shove, they will back a brinks truck up to Flores house.

And is there anything really wrong with an owner and GM wanting to hire a coach with HC coaching experience who has done very well in their organization and knows their system? The Rooney Rule is designed to get minority candidates interviews, as experience in that is important. (As I was told decades ago to take damn near every interview. If you don’t practice on the jobs you may not want how will you crush it for the jobs you do want?). Everyday folks are promoted into new roles at their current companies over external candidates because of relationships, demonstrated expertise, and reduced disruption. Dan Campbell is likely kicking himself for going to Detroit as he would have likely been a nO candidate too. Is your point that the Saints be required to hire a black coach? Specifically Flores?

[Don Johnson 4754]

3 hours ago, Don Johnson said:

Considering he went 3-36, if true, he probably could buy his own team now.

 

[A-Tex Devil 2451]

Jesus.  The numbers speak for themselves.  Whether implicit or explicit bias, and it’s a combination of both, owners don’t want to hire African American head coaches   That needs to change.  

This lawsuit may be flimsy.  I honestly don’t know.  But it will hopefully cast some sunlight on institutional bias and expose the explicit racists like Gruden at the very least through discovery.  Call it cancel culture, I don’t give a shit. But get these guys out of the game.  GonDonald Sterling on a couple of owners.  Figure it out. 

[Bateshorn 9928]

16 minutes ago, Texzilla58 said:

And is there anything really wrong with an owner and GM wanting to hire a coach with HC coaching experience who has done very well in their organization and knows their system? The Rooney Rule is designed to get minority candidates interviews, as experience in that is important. (As I was told decades ago to take damn near every interview. If you don’t practice on the jobs you may not want how will you crush it for the jobs you do want?). Everyday folks are promoted into new roles at their current companies over external candidates because of relationships, demonstrated expertise, and reduced disruption. Dan Campbell is likely kicking himself for going to Detroit as he would have likely been a nO candidate too. Is your point that the Saints be required to hire a black coach? Specifically Flores?

No. I’m just stating the obvious, the Rooney rule is nothing more than box that has to be checked when hiring a coach. I like Dennis Allen.  I have high hope for him as a Saints fan, although that cap situation is 😱

 

Regarding my last point: just if the NFL thinks it’s gonna lose, it will spend any sum of money to make it go away.  Look at what Stan Kroenke just had to pay St. Louis.  Or that the Benson kids basically walked away with his entire non sports empire. 

[Brew 3049]

2 hours ago, Duane Moore said:

If you were NFL Commissioner for a day, what revisions to the hiring process and Rooney rule would you propose?

Incentivize the result you are looking for through draft picks or cap credits. 

[Gourmand 7774]

15 hours ago, Porterhouse said:

Maybe, but his petition sounds flimsy, lacks focus and meanders all over the place.

Did you actually read the whole thing?  I did and that is not my takeaway at all. I thought the suit makes pretty compelling arguments with the data about NFL hiring practices, its clear history of racism and pattern of excluding minorities from decision-making positions, the lack of black QBs for decades, the race-norming wrt the concussion lawsuit, and all of it is well sourced. Flores has a tough case to prove but this thing has legs and could be a very big deal for the history of the NFL.

[closetohumping 17449]

1 minute ago, Brew said:

Incentivize the result you are looking for through draft picks or cap credits. 

Yep, you get to jump up 5 spots in the draft if you have a black coach.  3 spots for a Hispanic (not sure how that works with Flores, lose 4 spots if it's an Asian coach.  Then, draft all white players to make sure your team will suck so that you can pick early the next three years.  Tanking worked for the Astros right?

[Gourmand 7774]

1 hour ago, 6th Street said:

I think Houston's issue speaks more to their own ineptitude rather than racism.

When it comes to the McNair family......why not both?

[Don Johnson 4754]

2 minutes ago, Brew said:

Incentivize the result you are looking for through draft picks or cap credits. 

They do that.  In maybe even a better way.  By rewarding the team that develops the minority coach.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2020/11/10/nfl-minority-coach-general-manager-hiring-proposal-approved/6234064002/

Quote

 

NFL owners adopted a resolution on Tuesday that will compensate teams with draft picks for losing minority staff members to head coaching jobs and other premium positions elsewhere.

It’s another attempt by the league to bolster minority hiring for high-level jobs against the backdrop of a lagging record of diversity by its teams.

The gist of the resolution:

• A team that loses a minority assistant coach who becomes a head coach or loses a personnel executive who becomes a general manager will receive third-round compensatory picks in each of the next two drafts.

• A team that loses two minority staffers to head coach and general manager positions would receive three third-round picks.

Given multiple measures instituted in the name of diversity over many years, why will this resolution – approved unanimously by owners, pending approval from the NFL Players Association -- make a difference for a sustained change in the hiring patterns?

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/49ers-development-robert-saleh-nets-two-third-round-draft-picks

[Don Johnson 4754]

 

[Gourmand 7774]

1 hour ago, Beau Vine said:

Also, I don't get how deciding to hire someone before you're done interviewing candidates is evidence of racial discrimination.  It sucks, but it happens all the time in the real world, even in situations without issues of race.

Fair question, but I don't think that singular interview is what he's hanging his case on. He's arguing that his was a sham interview and fits a consistent pattern of racial discrimination across the league with black coaching candidates.

[The Dog 44063]

 

[closetohumping 17449]

8 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

Fair question, but I don't think that singular interview is what he's hanging his case on. He's arguing that his was a sham interview and fits a consistent pattern of racial discrimination across the league with black coaching candidates.

And it very well could be, but the Giants also interviewed white coaches.

[Catdaddyhorn 3446]

2 minutes ago, The Dog said:

 

Those receipts seems to be growing. 

[PittsburghTiger 6190]

3 hours ago, Gourmand said:

Shit is gonna get worse for the NFL.

And the Browns used that #1 pick on Baker Mayfield.

[Gourmand 7774]

5 minutes ago, closetohumping said:

And it very well could be, but the Giants also interviewed white coaches.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Snacks said:

I was referred to as "articulate" yesterday by someone who means well and is attempting to help me find a leadership role after being juked three times in the last five years.

Serious question... Do white men refer to each other as articulate often?  I never hear it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Gray Slacks

Did he call you clean and articulate?  No, white people do not call each other articulate. I mean, if a guy is really articulate, he might be called a nerd or wonkish before articulate. 

White people calling black people articulate is a form of well-intentioned racism. It suggests surprise that an urban fellow can match wits with my kind. I don’t understand why white people act surprised that a brother can hang in the same arenas we do. I guess I hang around my hand surgeon buddy (whom I owe dinner) and my son’s hoops coaches, who are all young “articulate” leaders of young men. All are black. All are guys like Daron Roberts. People are people; I don’t get surprised at anything impressive a black guy does, and my lack of surprise doesn’t make me special. 

Snacks did your conversation go like this?

 

[Don Johnson 4754]

7 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

Every team that hires a white HC is going to be easily accused of passing over specific black coaches due to the Rooney Rule.  Every team that has a white HC is not racist.

Also, some of those guys listed are awful (as are the guys who were actually hired).  Some were not even coordinators.

[closetohumping 17449]

3 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

Every team that hires a white HC is going to be easily accused of passing over specific black coaches due to the Rooney Rule.  Every team that has a white HC is not racist.

Also, some of those guys listed are awful (as are the guys who were actually hired).  Some were not even coordinators.

And I don't see Coughlin as a shit hire.  Teryl Austin?  Steve Wilks, Studesville?  Are they hot commodities?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Don Johnson said:

 

 

Now Robert Smith is basically Carlton, but a few things: he’s very smart (I mean….Carlton), and he’s absolutely right. I think Flores saw several instances of bullshit, was rightfully pissed about it, and was encouraged to make an emotionally-charged decision. 

[TonyTexas 10516]

New listing. NFL team for sale. 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Harrison Bergeron said:

Attempting to be serious ... I hear "executive presence" a lot, which I have always interpreted as "articulate."

It wouldn’t to me but I don’t hear that term used to describe smart blacks. Conversely I hear articulate all the time whereas it is not applied to whites. It’s like the person that says that to compliment a black guy expects all of them to speak like the jive talkers from Airplane! or Allen Iverson. 

[Bateshorn 9928]

1 minute ago, Porterhouse said:

It wouldn’t to me but I don’t hear that term used to describe smart blacks. Conversely I hear articulate all the time whereas it is not applied to whites. It’s like the person that says that to compliment a black guy expects all of them to speak like the jive talkers from Airplane! or Allen Iverson. 

Practice?!!!

[Don Johnson 4754]

2 minutes ago, closetohumping said:

And I don't see Coughlin as a shit hire.  Teryl Austin?  Steve Wilks, Studesville?  Are they hot commodities?

Agree.  Coughlin has won 2 SB as a HC, yet they mention he was chosen over Romeo Crennel who "would go on to receive head coaching positions with the Cleveland Browns, Kansas City Chiefs and Houston Texans."  Like that's a good point that they hired a guy who won 2 SB over a guy who went 32-63 and never made the playoffs with three different franchises.

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, Brew said:

Incentivize the result you are looking for through draft picks or cap credits. 

That’s a terrible idea. 

[Duane Moore 5243]

49 minutes ago, Brew said:

Incentivize the result you are looking for through draft picks or cap credits. 

So teams that hire a minority coach get an extra first round pick that year? Or $10 million in extra salary cap room?

[Don Johnson 4754]

1 minute ago, Porterhouse said:

That’s a terrible idea. 

It already happens.

[Gourmand 7774]

3 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

I think Flores saw several instances of bullshit, was rightfully pissed about it, and was encouraged to make an emotionally-charged decision. 

Dude just got pissed about losing out on a job and decided to sue the NFL, take on all the scrutiny and criticism that comes with it, and end his coaching career in a hissy fit? 

What a stupid take. Whatever the NFL lawyers may say about the merits of this case, there's zero chance Flores took this route without thinking about the personal ramifications and it certainly wasn't done impulsively. He's been in the league a long time, he knows the the game these owners are playing and he is going to get a lot of support from others who think they share similar experiences. 

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

Did you actually read the whole thing?  I did and that is not my takeaway at all. I thought the suit makes pretty compelling arguments with the data about NFL hiring practices, its clear history of racism and pattern of excluding minorities from decision-making positions, the lack of black QBs for decades, the race-norming wrt the concussion lawsuit, and all of it is well sourced. Flores has a tough case to prove but this thing has legs and could be a very big deal for the history of the NFL.

Yes. It’s poorly focused and meanders. It’s not very damning at all. Elway showed up hungover and you suspect Giants hired Daboll before interviewing a slew of candidates for days after you got a Belichick text. I think it’s entirely circumstantial and weak. He’s probably right on some of it, but it’s really weak legally speaking. 

[closetohumping 17449]

8 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

Now Robert Smith is basically Carlton, but a few things: he’s very smart (I mean….Carlton), and he’s absolutely right. I think Flores saw several instances of bullshit, was rightfully pissed about it, and was encouraged to make an emotionally-charged decision. 

I remember him saying he was considering med school at some point?  Bright guy

3 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

Agree.  Coughlin has won 2 SB as a HC, yet they mention he was chosen over Romeo Crennel who "would go on to receive head coaching positions with the Cleveland Browns, Kansas City Chiefs and Houston Texans."  Like that's a good point that they hired a guy who won 2 SB over a guy who went 32-63 and never made the playoffs with three different franchises.

Yeah, would anyone be a bit more critical of Romeo if he were a honkey, I mean white?  That wouldn't be an example I would bring up.  Also if everyone thinks Eric B is the best prospect in the market, why hasn't he been hired?  Is it racial?  Idk.

[Gourmand 7774]

2 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

Yes. It’s poorly focused and meanders. It’s not very damning at all. Elway showed up hungover and you suspect Giants hired Daboll before interviewing a slew of candidates for days after you got a Belichick text. I think it’s entirely circumstantial and weak. He’s probably right on some of it, but it’s really weak legally speaking. 

You haven't actually read the whole thing have you?

[Gourmand 7774]

2 minutes ago, closetohumping said:

Yeah, would anyone be a bit more critical of Romeo if he were a honkey, I mean white?  That wouldn't be an example I would bring up.  Also if everyone thinks Eric B is the best prospect in the market, why hasn't he been hired?  Is it racial?  Idk.

That's kind of the point. They are arguing that guys like Teryl Austin and Eric Bienemy are not being afforded the same opportunities as their white counterparts despite years of experience in the league, and then those that do get a chance (Culley, Wilks, Caldwell) are not afforded the same leash to prove themselves as white coaches and they have the data to back it up.

 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

It already happens.

It’s a terrible practice and providing further incentive from what is provided now is a bad bad idea. 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

Dude just got pissed about losing out on a job and decided to sue the NFL, take on all the scrutiny and criticism that comes with it, and end his coaching career in a hissy fit? 

What a stupid take. Whatever the NFL lawyers may say about the merits of this case, there's zero chance Flores took this route without thinking about the personal ramifications and it certainly wasn't done impulsively. He's been in the league a long time, he knows the the game these owners are playing and he is going to get a lot of support from others who think they share similar experiences. 

I’m sure he thought about the ramifications, and while I may be wrong, I think he acted very impulsively. Why?  He would’ve been offered NO or Houston or a HC next year. But he was in the running for jobs RIGHT NOW and he had a ready-made 58-page petition?  He’s been plotting this ever since he was fired by Miami, and probably before, and surely hasn’t been emotionally stable since then. 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

You haven't actually read the whole thing have you?

Dude, yes. Whoever authored it should be flayed.