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Minneapolis police murder Black man during no-knock raid, had wrong guy the entire time

Pancho

By Pancho
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52-80

52-80 19,262

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His having legal ownership to a gun has nothing to do with it.  This is literally *6 seconds* after they announced themselves and bust into the apartment.  Gun clearly visible in the confrontation.  The shooting, in this scenario, is justified.

 

The problem is this scenario should not even have happened.  I don't know the backgrounds of this case, but no-knock warrant just seems a righteous mess.  The police shouldn't shock-barge into a place like this.

image.thumb.png.34f14cd3b2ad096277f71cda0cf9f4c5.png

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Guest Lobo

Guest Lobo

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RE: the woman at the press conference.

The only thing more remarkable than her powerful message is her composure.  Were I her, I would have lost my fucking shit up there with those two assclowns just going through the motions.  But she delivers a very passionate message filled with emotion, respect, and a deep desire to make change born from tears of frustration.  

If the dangers to police during no-knock warrants at 1am at the residences of criminals worry them so much, maybe just don't do them?  If you the person you think is in there, just wait for them to come outside in the morning and blast 'em with rubber bullets.  Worse case scenario, you have a stand-off with them all day the next day and you get paid overtime.  

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52-80

52-80 19,262

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Just to be absolutely clear, with all the info so far, this is absolutely the fault of the police, but specifically the problem is their executing no-knock warrant... not a wanton/malicious premeditated shooting or whatever wild shit this mightbe characterized as

 

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hayden_horn

hayden_horn 11,365

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13 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

His having legal ownership to a gun has nothing to do with it.  This is literally *6 seconds* after they announced themselves and bust into the apartment.  Gun clearly visible in the confrontation.  The shooting, in this scenario, is justified.

 

The problem is this scenario should not even have happened.  I don't know the backgrounds of this case, but no-knock warrant just seems a righteous mess.  The police shouldn't shock-barge into a place like this.

image.thumb.png.34f14cd3b2ad096277f71cda0cf9f4c5.png

it is absolutely not a justified shooting.

the police put themselves in the wrong place. they have a greater responsibility. we need to do away with no knock warrants altogether. 

they shot someone. this person was not their suspect. even if he was, THEY HAVE A GREATER RESPONSIBILITY.

frustrating that people ignore that.

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Captainant

Captainant 27,824

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13 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Just to be absolutely clear, with all the info so far, this is absolutely the fault of the police, but specifically the problem is their executing no-knock warrant... not a wanton/malicious premeditated shooting or whatever wild shit this mightbe characterized as

 

 

21 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

His having legal ownership to a gun has nothing to do with it.  This is literally *6 seconds* after they announced themselves and bust into the apartment.  Gun clearly visible in the confrontation.  The shooting, in this scenario, is justified.

 

The problem is this scenario should not even have happened.  I don't know the backgrounds of this case, but no-knock warrant just seems a righteous mess.  The police shouldn't shock-barge into a place like this.

image.thumb.png.34f14cd3b2ad096277f71cda0cf9f4c5.png

These two posts are incongruous. The police had no legal justification to be there. They violated that man's 4th and 2nd amendment rights and fucking MURDERED him.

That is NOT a justified shoot. How the fuck can that thought even cross your mind?

If someone breaks into your house and threatens you, you defend yourself, and then they shoot you - is that a justified shoot? 

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52-80

52-80 19,262

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3 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

it is absolutely not a justified shooting.

the police put themselves in the wrong place. they have a greater responsibility. we need to do away with no knock warrants altogether. 

they shot someone. this person was not their suspect. even if he was, THEY HAVE A GREATER RESPONSIBILITY.

frustrating that people ignore that.

the shooting is not justified in the sense that the police should not have executed the no-knock warrant.  they should not have created that situation.

but the *moment* of the shooting was justified.  i.e., they were not shooting a sleeping person, or unarmed person, or mistaking a tv remote for a gun, etc.

not a meaningless distinction.  (in the culture war of police hunting people etc etc etc)

as a whole, the police were unequivocally at-fault. 

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Captainant

Captainant 27,824

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4 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

but the *moment* of the shooting was justified. 

Fuck the warrior cop defense. Split second defense is a fucking fallacy used to excuse state violence against citizens.

The moment of the shooting was not justified because they instigated the shooting. 

You don't get to claim self defense for a fight you started.

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Captainant

Captainant 27,824

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1 minute ago, Fondren & Main said:

Why do we have these no knock raids?  People gotta leave their place sometime.  Wouldn’t it be easier to grab them leaving a whataburger or something?

Cops need to justify getting hand-me-downs from DoD and want to go play with their toys. 

No knock raids came into vogue during the drug war so they could "prevent the destruction of evidence" and now are pretty much just used to terrify and attack the local population. And occasionally murder a few citizens and cause the local taxpayers to fund the PD's settlement and protection of the bad cops.

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31,552

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9 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Cops need to justify getting hand-me-downs from DoD and want to go play with their toys. 

No knock raids came into vogue during the drug war so they could "prevent the destruction of evidence" and now are pretty much just used to terrify and attack the local population. And occasionally murder a few citizens and cause the local taxpayers to fund the PD's settlement and protection of the bad cops.

That, and some pure laziness.  Takes more effort to follow them around and make an arrest.  And, they get off on being "tactical."

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TexasEd

TexasEd 8,077

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Do we have the stats on no-knocks gone wrong?

This one, the one where they threw an incendiary device in a baby crib, Breyonna Taylor, the EMT and her boyfriend when the real suspect was already in custody, ...

There was a law introduced to ban them in Texas last year, doubt it passed.

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Guest Lobo

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At least we’re debating facts, law, and policy.  I figured the conversation would have shifted by now to the background/lifestyle of the deceased.  Progress?

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crash_davis

crash_davis 23,115

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https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/minnesota-ag-join-investigation-fatal-police-shooting-82672750

lots of questions. the man who was shot was not named in the warrant but was he at the apartment where named individuals were? did the police have the right apartment or did they have a completely wrong apartment?

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Captainant

Captainant 27,824

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4 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/minnesota-ag-join-investigation-fatal-police-shooting-82672750

lots of questions. the man who was shot was not named in the warrant but was he at the apartment where named individuals were? did the police have the right apartment or did they have a completely wrong apartment?

Well strangely enough, the cops haven't yet released the alleged warrant. I think I read the warrant is still active though, so we may not see it until it's resolved

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mchookem

mchookem 16,407

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20 minutes ago, TexasEd said:

Do we have the stats on no-knocks gone wrong?

This one, the one where they threw an incendiary device in a baby crib, Breyonna Taylor, the EMT and her boyfriend when the real suspect was already in custody, ...

There was a law introduced to ban them in Texas last year, doubt it passed.

...our best friends whose 17 year old son shot an APD officer (with a legal gun) during a pre-dawn no-knock raid* bc he thought someone was breaking in on him and his mom (i've shared story here several times) and is now serving 13 years in TDCJ 😡💔

and don't forget the massive fuckup and scandal in the Tuttle raid in Houston!

i suppose the majority of them go according to plan, but the stakes are just too high and the consequences of being wrong are just too much!

 

*they surveilled the house for two weeks and saw no suspicious activity. he literally left the house at 7:30am every day to drive thru the neighborhood to school. they could have easily stopped him in his fucking driveway. 🤬

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crash_davis

crash_davis 23,115

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1 minute ago, Captainant said:

Well strangely enough, the cops haven't yet released the alleged warrant. I think I read the warrant is still active though, so we may not see it until it's resolved

i think this may either reduce or add fuel to the fire. if they had the right apartment, meaning the right suspect(s) lived there, and this guy happened to be sleeping there and got shot, then it may takes a little heat off from the murdering an innocent dude who had nothing to do with anything cause they used apple maps instead of google maps. but if they had the completely wrong apartment, holy fuck what kind of fucking imbeciles are they?

and i'm not saying that the first scenario justifies anything but if that dude was sleeping at an apartment of dudes who are wanted for murder, then he should've chosen better friends.  didn't watch the video but from the article it seemed like police did announce themselves but after breaking into the apartment. but yea, announcing yourself and shooting a dude within seconds, why bother announcing?

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BabaYaga

BabaYaga 15,328

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1 minute ago, GringoSalado said:

Cannot fucking believe that there is not a larger movement to end no-knock warrants. In a sane world, with rational, normal readings of bill of rights, there is no way this is a legal tactic.

Same.  Seems something "both sides" can agree on.  They are a clear violation and a gross overstep and should be used very, very sparingly and be hard as shit to get.  They seem as easy to get as a FOIA request these days.  They should also implicate those that signed off on.....all the way up the chain.  

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Captainant

Captainant 27,824

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3 minutes ago, GringoSalado said:

Cannot fucking believe that there is not a larger movement to end no-knock warrants.

 

Just now, BabaYaga said:

Same.  Seems something "both sides" can agree on.  They are a clear violation and a gross overstep and should be used very, very sparingly and be hard as shit to get.  They seem as easy to get as a FOIA request these days.  They should also implicate those that signed off on.....all the way up the chain.  

Bro do you even back the blue? 

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BabaYaga

BabaYaga 15,328

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I understand the premise behind NNR's:  if they know the dude is armed, violent and/or mentally disturbed containing the arrest to a building or room may be warranted to prevent civilians injured or killed (Vs letting them leave before arresting).

BUT, the justification needs to be transparent and provided to all after and not shielded behind BS "protecting sources" nonsense.  Show your work.  If if it gets people fired, all the better.  

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Captainant

Captainant 27,824

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Just now, BabaYaga said:

BUT, the justification needs to be transparent and provided to all after and not shielded behind BS "protecting sources" nonsense.  Show your work.  If if it gets people fired, all the better.  

[Laughs in police union]

Yeah, cops getting fired for making mistakes is TOTALLY going to happen. They definitely won't be allowed to resign (rather than be terminated) and move on to another town to rinse and repeat. 

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'stache

'stache 21,892

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1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

The shooting is justifiable but for the wrong person and the wrong place.  A little different in the details than the usual, but it's still reckless cops and innocent dead men.

The latter makes the former irrelevant. It was unjust, period, because they had no reason to be there.

On the broader point, no-knock warrants seem like a way to create a justified killing. Assuming that they are used to aprehend dangerous people, you have to expect that they are armed, so you know in advance that the cops are likely going to need to kill the person. Very much goes against the constitutional rights we've created.

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GopherRock

GopherRock 1,770

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Last fall, the Minneapolis voters decided that paying eight-figure excessive force settlements was acceptable.

And this thing keeps looking more and more fucked up. Not only was the name of the deceased not in the warrant, St Paul police originally applied for a standard search warrant, but MPD wanted and got an upgrade to no-knock.

 

 

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40 minutes ago, mchookem said:

...our best friends whose 17 year old son shot an APD officer (with a legal gun) during a pre-dawn no-knock raid* bc he thought someone was breaking in on him and his mom (i've shared story here several times) and is now serving 13 years in TDCJ 😡💔

and don't forget the massive fuckup and scandal in the Tuttle raid in Houston!

i suppose the majority of them go according to plan, but the stakes are just too high and the consequences of being wrong are just too much!

 

*they surveilled the house for two weeks and saw no suspicious activity. he literally left the house at 7:30am every day to drive thru the neighborhood to school. they could have easily stopped him in his fucking driveway. 🤬

These are your best friends?!?!  What were they raiding the house for?

Kid is lucky to be alive. Wow. 

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DanRydell

DanRydell 799

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the shooting is not justified in the sense that the police should not have executed the no-knock warrant.  they should not have created that situation.
but the *moment* of the shooting was justified.  i.e., they were not shooting a sleeping person, or unarmed person, or mistaking a tv remote for a gun, etc.
not a meaningless distinction.  (in the culture war of police hunting people etc etc etc)
as a whole, the police were unequivocally at-fault. 

Even if they had a proper warrant to search that place, it was still not justified. The deceased had the right to exercise self defense against who he reasonably-perceived as home intruders. As the instigators, the officers do not have the right to exercise self-defense.
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Smax

Smax 3,800

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5 minutes ago, GopherRock said:

Last fall, the Minneapolis voters decided that paying eight-figure excessive force settlements was acceptable.

And this thing keeps looking more and more fucked up. Not only was the name of the deceased not in the warrant, St Paul police originally applied for a standard search warrant, but MPD wanted and got an upgrade to no-knock.

 

 

 

 

These settlements should not be funded by the tax payers, they should come from the police officers unions, pensions, 401ks whatever. 

Won't happen but if it did, these incidents would be extremely rare

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4doorsMoreWhores

4doorsMoreWhores 107

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27 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Not necessarily....it is a recently introduced model chambered in an uncommon caliber.

https://www.ruger.com/products/ruger57/specSheets/16401.html

The article said he was using an FN, which is not so recently introduced. The Ruger model is, and considerably cheaper and much more attractive(in my opnion). I've been entertaining buying one. Too bad this guy didn't get a few rounds off at these assholes. Some 5.7 loads can penetrate soft body armor. 

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Helobious

Helobious 9,467

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2 hours ago, 52-80 said:

His having legal ownership to a gun has nothing to do with it.  This is literally *6 seconds* after they announced themselves and bust into the apartment.  Gun clearly visible in the confrontation.  The shooting, in this scenario, is justified.

 

The problem is this scenario should not even have happened.  I don't know the backgrounds of this case, but no-knock warrant just seems a righteous mess.  The police shouldn't shock-barge into a place like this.

image.thumb.png.34f14cd3b2ad096277f71cda0cf9f4c5.png

You’re wrong. It’s not a justified shooting. 8 years ago in Texas, guy wins capital murder defense after he shot & killed a deputy who entered his house during a no knock warrant. He argued self-defense, the shooter in that case actually was the intended target of the raid & did have drugs in the house, he didn’t beat those charges but he beat the capital murder charge. He was a white guy though, probably helped.

https://www.kbtx.com/content/news/Man-who-shot-killed-Burleson-deputy-serving-time-for-drug-charges-418017733.html

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31,552

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29 minutes ago, 'stache said:

The latter makes the former irrelevant. It was unjust, period, because they had no reason to be there.

On the broader point, no-knock warrants seem like a way to create a justified killing. Assuming that they are used to aprehend dangerous people, you have to expect that they are armed, so you know in advance that the cops are likely going to need to kill the person. Very much goes against the constitutional rights we've created.

That was pretty much my point.  Should have used the sarcasm font.  The "but for" kind of swallows everything else.

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52-80

52-80 19,262

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5 minutes ago, DanRydell said:


Even if they had a proper warrant to search that place, it was still not justified. The deceased had the right to exercise self defense against who he reasonably-perceived as home intruders. As the instigators, the officers do not have the right to exercise self-defense.

that's right.  that's why the no-knock intrusion was wrong, and is the basis for the ultimate fault being on the side of the police.

the first twitter comment from the original post mentioned amir's right to a weapon, his gun being legally registered, etc, which is all a red herring. 

the legality of his gun doesn't change WHY he was shot (because it was presented to the police), and it being legal does not imply he should otherwise not have been shot.

 

he should not have been shot because the confrontation should not have materialized in the first place.

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Foosters

Foosters 17,889

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54 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

And hard as hell to get the go-ahead for.  

Unfortunately, they're not:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/the-war-on-drugs-gave-rise-to-no-knock-warrants-breonna-taylors-death-could-end-them

Quote

Data collected by Kraska shows that municipal police and sheriffs’ departments used no-knock or quick-knock warrants about 1,500 times in the early 1980s, but that number rose to about 40,000 times per year by 2000, he said. In 2010, Kraska estimated 60,000-70,000 no-knock or quick-knock raids were conducted by local police annually. The majority of those raids were looking for marijuana, he added.

 

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