Time to start allowing the unvaccinated to pay larger portions of their Covid Hospital bills?

[horn4life 3,748]

There are basically two ways to change behavior.  The carrot and the stick.  We have for over a year been trying to convince folks to be smart and protect themselves and help our country get back to normal.  I think now it's time for the stick.  

So what is your opinion? Time to start passing on some of the costs as an incentie to get a FREE SHOT?

 

[HenryJames 64,951]

I think anyone who is hospitalized in this country is already fucked enough when it comes to cost.

[Snake Diggity 4,545]

They’re already paying most of the cost.  Because they are the ones in the hospital.  The real way they are fucking us is when healthcare (and other critical) resources are stretched because of all the unvaccinated people who are sick and taxing the resources beyond capacity.  So if society is going to levy some punishment on them it should be that if the hospitals fill up they start booting out and refusing to serve unvaccinated people.  But that isn’t realistic.  There really isn’t a realistic way to punish them more than they already are.  I wouldn’t mind insurance companies starting to refuse to insure unvaxxed people or charge them a higher premium.  

[Mole 4,265]

It’d be cathartic to push them into insane medical debt, but I don’t think that’s helpful for all of us long term. Vengeance might feel good, but it’s probably not helpful. Since the problem is mostly filling up hospitals, maybe revising triage standards or instituting Uber-like surge pricing for the unvaccinated.

[Anastasis 23,191]

I think that premium surcharges are a better stick, and would have potential to effect behavior modification prior to the need for hospitalization, rather than bankrupt them after the event has occurred. Not sure what you do with safety net programs and Medicare though. 

[TexArcher 36,907]

I think the best thing we can do while hospitals are stretched thin is put the people who are vaccinated and got Covid anyway at the front of the line and the unvaccinated at the back of the line.  If beds and ventilators run out, let them run out for those who didn't do the bare minimum to protect themselves and everyone around them.

[TexArcher 36,907]

I would be in favor of a public announcement that vaccinations are still free and if you get Covid and you're not vaccinated, your health insurance company can deny your claim and stick you with the bill.    

But I don't think it would motivate many of the Tucker Carlson crowd.  The problem with cults is that they only listen to their leader.

[956 Worldwide 33,959]

I am for not treating them at this point-- for anything they have wrong with them.  Either you have a real (rare) medical excuse or you are out of luck.  Hygiene requirement to enter a hospital is the vaccine.  

[gmr548 16,260]

I think anyone who is hospitalized in this country is already fucked enough when it comes to cost.

This. I get the frustration, but for the most part, this issue is just channeling the kind of vindictive politics typically seen from Republicans. I’d rather not go there.

Premium increases similar too how smoking is treated is probably about as far as I’d go. And I imagine the increase would end up pretty small relative to smoking.

[horn4life 3,748]

I opted for a 25% starting point with my vote.  But I do agree that premium surcharges might be the most effective as a more gentle carrot.  

Ny biggest problem of the displacement of those who need treatment for the usual maladies and TRUE emergencies.  A slow and steady steam of the stupid into the emergency room is simply not a cost effective model.  So there are real costs involved that oftentimes are going to be picked up by the taxpayers simply do to stupidity. 

I was surprised to see so many say pass all the costs through, but I get the frustration.

[RDCanecutter 25,780]

I didn't see the option for paying the unvaccinated a stipend to reward their bravery, so I won't be voting.

[Rimbo 25,212]

I'm in favor of turning them away at the door. If they don't believe in medical science enough to get vaccinated, if they reject it to the point where they're taking horse paste instead of actual fact-based medicine, then they shouldn't show up at a place built on those same principles, blocking the rest of us who actually might need it.

[CooterBrown 17,700]

I would be in favor of a public announcement that vaccinations are still free and if you get Covid and you're not vaccinated, your health insurance company can deny your claim and stick you with the bill.    
But I don't think it would motivate many of the Tucker Carlson crowd.  The problem with cults is that they only listen to their leader.

Tucker would be arguing for socialized medicine just to be a contrarian.

[Ghost of LL 15,226]

13 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

Tucker would be arguing for socialized medicine just to be a contrarian.

That's essentially what he is arguing for--socializing the costs of private decisions.

[TexArcher 36,907]

21 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

That's essentially what he is arguing for--socializing the costs of private decisions.

There's a fabulous gay socialist repressed deep down inside every single one of them.

[Bateshorn 9,494]

Not only would Allow insurers to reject any claims, I’d make the debt undischargeable in bankruptcy. 

[High Plains Drifter 10,916]

2 hours ago, Rimbo said:

I'm in favor of turning them away at the door. If they don't believe in medical science enough to get vaccinated, if they reject it to the point where they're taking horse paste instead of actual fact-based medicine, then they shouldn't show up at a place built on those same principles, blocking the rest of us who actually might need it.

 

Turning them away would be cruel. I say just set up a tent in the back with some horse blankets. They can lay in there until they die or recover. Their families can bring them food and change out their bed pans and haul off their dead bodies.

 

 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 18,304]

59 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

Not only would Allow insurers to reject any claims, I’d make the debt undischargeable in bankruptcy. 

This right here.  Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.  Tired of subsidizing stupid.

Edited February 7, 2022 by PenelopeWitherspoon

[HenryJames 64,951]

[horn4life 3,748]

Wow sort of surprised so many wanted to pass on all the costs.  But maybe that is the only way to get the stupid to wise up?

[Biff Tannen 44,929]

With mask mandates being lifted (I fully expect this to be nationwide within a few weeks), I don't think we have a choice, but to make some changes to how these people are treated.  We can't keep hospitals full of unvaxxed people.  It's not fair to our healthcare workers or vaxxed people that need the hospitals for other reasons.

[Pescado_Rojo 19,195]

I said pass it all through, but I'm just running out of patience for these people. Actually, I think a phased approach would be best.

Year 1, insurance surcharge if you can't show proof of vaccination or blood test antibodies in excess of XXX. Make them take the test at an approved facility, don't let them bring you a result from Dr Freedom Eagle. Make sure you spell it out as a specific surcharge for Covid risk, too. These people only understand punitive, so make it punitive. I get a discount on my health insurance for getting a physical every year and some other discounts based on activity and lifestyle choices. Fuck all that. Spell it out in big letters "WE ARE CHARGING YOU MORE BECAUSE YOU WON'T DO THE SIMPLEST THING AND GET VACCINATED". 

Year 2 and beyond, same as above, but add a coverage cap for Covid related costs. 

Year 3, same as year 1, but no coverage if you get Covid. 

[TurkeyChew 383]

I've long said that a legitimate exemption to vaccines or mandates should be a means test:

If you can prove you either have a) the requisite employer-backed insurance to pay for a worst case scenario hospital stay and/or b) a mix of liquid and non-liquid assets to pay for a worst case scenario hospital/medical stay, then can choose to not take the vaccination and have all the rights and freedoms available to the vaxxed.

If you are already on Obamacare or Medicare or Medicaid or otherwise under-insured, then sorry, you have to get the vaccination or be saddled with the cost and go bankrupt.

Edited February 8, 2022 by TurkeyChew

[Dutchrudder 10,974]

It's a self-correcting problem. They are dying in droves compared to those vaccinated and boostered.  There's a finite amount of those who are anti-vax, not much you can do about it, but let them fuck around and find out. Sorry to anyone out there who is unable to be vaccinated for legitimate reasons though, these people don't care about you and your problems.  

 

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination

[High Plains Drifter 10,916]

2 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

With mask mandates being lifted (I fully expect this to be nationwide within a few weeks), I don't think we have a choice, but to make some changes to how these people are treated.  We can't keep hospitals full of unvaxxed people.  It's not fair to our healthcare workers or vaxxed people that need the hospitals for other reasons.

 

hospital workers are quitting in droves, everything from surgeons to nurses to janitors. Even if covid disappears completely tomorrow, it will take years for the health system in this country to recover.

Thanks Obama Biden Brandon!

 

[dingleberryswitzer 2,724]

I said “no” because I feel like the insurance companies (health and life) will eventually adjust and figure out how to charge them more or offer rebates for vaccinated people.  People without insurance aren’t paying anyways, doesn’t matter if they owe the hospital $1k or 100k. 

[gyroprotagonist 2,591]

same treatment, same cost with 1 exception.  their saline solution has the 5G chip in there.  the bag has "5G version, made by Microsoft" in big bold letters.  

might be down with a Uber-like surge pricing for intake for unvaxxed coming into the ER with issues from Covid and the place is already packed.

[Biff Tannen 44,929]

2 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

hospital workers are quitting in droves, everything from surgeons to nurses to janitors. Even if covid disappears completely tomorrow, it will take years for the health system in this country to recover.

Thanks Obama Biden Brandon!

 

I can't blame them.  Most people in healthcare get into it for the right reasons: to help people.  When they have seen two years of the worst humanity has to offer, I can't imagine they still want to help these stupid fucks.

[Horn Dog 9,465]

4 hours ago, Dutchrudder said:

It's a self-correcting problem. They are dying in droves compared to those vaccinated and boostered.  There's a finite amount of those who are anti-vax, not much you can do about it, but let them fuck around and find out. Sorry to anyone out there who is unable to be vaccinated for legitimate reasons though, these people don't care about you and your problems.  

 

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination

Yes, but as my close conservatives friends love to say,  "Why the fuck should I have to pay for their lifestyle choices?   This is not a socialist country!"  

[Anastasis 23,191]

4 hours ago, TurkeyChew said:

If you can prove you either have a) the requisite employer-backed insurance to pay for a worst case scenario hospital stay and/or b) a mix of liquid and non-liquid assets to pay for a worst case scenario hospital/medical stay, then can choose to not take the vaccination and have all the rights and freedoms available to the vaxxed.

Item a) just results in the costs being spread to all via premium increases, so basically where we already are. 

Surcharges could make the people that are causing the increased utilization directly responsible for covering the costs.  The surcharge would likely be a large amount.  

The only real problem with a surcharge approach as applied to employer sponsored plans would be that the actuarial math requires large numbers to work right and for some small groups and/or individual plans it would be really hard if not impossible to price the surcharge.

[GreenspointTexas 9,354]

2 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

hospital workers are quitting in droves, everything from surgeons to nurses to janitors. Even if covid disappears completely tomorrow, it will take years for the health system in this country to recover.

Thanks Obama Biden Brandon!

 

The healthcare system will likely never recover from this, at least wont be the same as pre covid. I know personally about 7-8 people (RNs, Scrub Techs, NPs, MA, etc) that have left healthcare altogether or have a job over the phone now because of the pandemic/burnout.

 

There was already a gigantic staffing shortage pre-covid. Now….. shiiiiiiit. At least healthcare peeps are making bank now. Other than that, it fucking sucks ass to be in the field right now.

 

such is life

[Post Oak 20,068]

38 minutes ago, gyroprotagonist said:

same treatment, same cost with 1 exception.  their saline solution has the 5G chip in there.  the bag has "5G version, made by Microsoft" in big bold letters.  

might be down with a Uber-like surge pricing for intake for unvaxxed coming into the ER with issues from Covid and the place is already packed.

This is the way

[TexasEd 8,012]

On 2/7/2022 at 9:18 AM, Anastasis said:

I think that premium surcharges are a better stick, and would have potential to effect behavior modification prior to the need for hospitalization, rather than bankrupt them after the event has occurred. Not sure what you do with safety net programs and Medicare though. 

I don't think this works because most of the people making the decision against vaccination probably can't afford the bill in the first place so charging them $12K or $112K, what is the difference?  Many would be covered by insurance so may be limited by out of pocket max.  

On 2/7/2022 at 9:19 AM, TexArcher said:

I think the best thing we can do while hospitals are stretched thin is put the people who are vaccinated and got Covid anyway at the front of the line and the unvaccinated at the back of the line.  If beds and ventilators run out, let them run out for those who didn't do the bare minimum to protect themselves and everyone around them.

This may help but then it lets the people Like Lying Ted and Tucker "Just asking questions" claim that the discrimination they predicted is real.

The chart that Dutchrudder needs to be plastered on the airwaves and in facebook ads. And maybe add on that the costs of funerals are up due to supply chain shortages.

4 hours ago, Dutchrudder said:

It's a self-correcting problem. They are dying in droves compared to those vaccinated and boostered.  There's a finite amount of those who are anti-vax, not much you can do about it, but let them fuck around and find out. Sorry to anyone out there who is unable to be vaccinated for legitimate reasons though, these people don't care about you and your problems.  

 

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination

 

[C-Man 26,543]

5 hours ago, TurkeyChew said:

I've long said that a legitimate exemption to vaccines or mandates should be a means test:

If you can prove you either have a) the requisite employer-backed insurance to pay for a worst case scenario hospital stay and/or b) a mix of liquid and non-liquid assets to pay for a worst case scenario hospital/medical stay, then can choose to not take the vaccination and have all the rights and freedoms available to the vaxxed.

If you are already on Obamacare or Medicare or Medicaid or otherwise under-insured, then sorry, you have to get the vaccination or be saddled with the cost and go bankrupt.

Yeah, that won't fly with insurance companies. There's a $25 vaccine that could potentially save us a $250K hospital bill? Fuck you, pay me. There's a $25 vaccine that could help us avoid a $1 million term life payout to somebody dying decades before they might otherwise? Fuck you, pay me.

At some point, COVID-19 hangs around long enough that the carriers will price in whether you take minimal preventative measures. Even if the pandemic portion of this passes before they do it, they'll put safeguards in future contracts to account for the next pandemic disease.

[High Plains Drifter 10,916]

1 hour ago, GreenspointTexas said:

The healthcare system will likely never recover from this, at least wont be the same as pre covid. I know personally about 7-8 people (RNs, Scrub Techs, NPs, MA, etc) that have left healthcare altogether or have a job over the phone now because of the pandemic/burnout.

 

There was already a gigantic staffing shortage pre-covid. Now….. shiiiiiiit. At least healthcare peeps are making bank now. Other than that, it fucking sucks ass to be in the field right now.

 

such is life

 

I have one sister who is a hospital administrator, another who is a PA, and a BIL who is a doctor. They are all burn out, fed up, pissed off, and getting sick of the bullshit. They are all young or youngish and on the early side of their careers, so hopefully they will be able to last. The doctor BIL doesn't normally work in a hospital, but he's been taking a 12 hour shift on the weekends (after his normal ~50 hr a week at his practice) at a hospital to help out with the shortage. The administrator sister has been having to cover stuff like intakes that she normally doesn't do because of shortages at her hospital. She's even done time in the kitchen, taking meals to the patients in their beds and rooms, and stuff like that. The PA sister has two young kids, but my mother has been keeping her kids on Saturdays so she can work an extra saturday shift. Its crazy, and its not sustainable.

I can feel my self getting angrier and angrier as I type.

 

And then there is the other sister, and her husband, who refuse to get vaccinated, and have become the family pariahs.

[Bama Chick 28,595]

Dude - working in ANY area of direct patient care right now SUCKS.

I can’t even tell you the number of departments I’ve subbed in for over the past two and a half years. Everything from housekeeping to the vaccine clinic to the ED to Occupational Medicine.

I’m so fucking tired.

[Bateshorn 9,494]

Again: make it clear, make it costly, and make the debt stick to you like pine tar.  
 

once people understand you can get the free vax, or spend the rest of your life having this debt destroy you, people will get the shot. And IDGAF about antibodies. Vax or bust. 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Bateshorn

[Skipper 5,955]

This has always been my preferred approach over mandates.   Actions have consequences.  Edit, and I agree Premium Increases is the preferred approach. 

Edited February 9, 2022 by Skipper