Grizzly Bear hunting approved in Wyoming

[Brisketexan 105438]

7 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

20 yr old me did. 40 yr old me doesn't.

If the grizzly population is becoming an ecological problem, then I'm ok with thinning them out a little. But I suspect, despite 686's post, that this isn't about that. This is about appeasing the hunting and ranching lobbies.

I was certainly more of a cold-blooded killer back then.  But I still never wanted to shoot a predator.  I remember coming across a bobcat and her kittens at that age, and I was just so excited that I got to watch them for a while.  I'd love to see a bear in the wild.

And I'm not entirely opposed to such hunts....believe me, I understand that hunting pays the freight for a lot of wildlife and habitat conservation.  It's just not for me, and to the rest of the folks out there, it looks bad.

Again, I'd like it if we relocated some further south into their historic range.  It'd be pretty fucking cool to see a Grizzly in Big Bend:

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Looks like the Appalachians are the only thing that saved the east coast from Grizzly infestation.

 

[Hank Scorpio 17731]

The only way that any endangered species should be allowed to survive is if we let awesome hunter men murder them with high powered rifles out of helicopters.

[686 3451]

43 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

If the grizzly population is becoming an ecological problem, then I'm ok with thinning them out a little.

That is exactly what state game and fish agencies do, very successfully, with basically everything else (black bear, mountain lion, wolves, elk, whitetail deer, mule deer, moose, sheep, goats, turkey, grouse, doves, pheasants, quail, ducks, geese, cranes, fish, squirrels, rabbits, etc., etc.) They monitor population numbers and habitat conditions, and set quotas as appropriate to maintain ecosystem balance. 

Hunters have been able to shoot big grizzly/brown bears uninterrupted in Canada and Alaska this entire time, grizz hunting is not some unobtainable thing. IMO this isn't about pent up demand for grizzly hunting. I don't know the ranching situation around Yellowstone very well, but I do know the Park Service in Yellowstone artificially increased the numbers of bears by feeding them garbage for the better half of the 20th century, and then stopped in the 1970's, which resulted in a huge reduction in population numbers, because the habitat couldn't support that many bears. It may have led directly/indirectly to the ESA listing, I can't remember the timing there. Hunters didn't create this mess, we all did, and hunters are funding the lion's share of the restoration efforts.

Edited May 25, 2018 by 686
OU sucks

[686 3451]

48 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Again, I'd like it if we relocated some further south into their historic range.  It'd be pretty fucking cool to see a Grizzly in Big Bend

Without bison and elk there, I don't think there is enough food for Grizz populations in Big Bend. I would wager we will have a Jaguar sighting in Texas in the next 10 years, which would be great.

[Judge Roybeanbag 11821]

Some asshole down near Uvalde killed a black bear a couple years ago, that had wandered back north from Mexico because of the drought.  

[Pato del Muerto 52616]

Every year, several grizzlies are relocated as they attempt to settle into a populated area. Every year, a few unlucky hunters and hikers get attacked by grizzlies.  Sometimes the deer/elk/moose hunters are able to kill the bear. 

To wit:

 

 

i dont know that selling 22 tags is going to do much to the bear pop here other than maybe reduce some of those unwanted interactions. 

And the ranchers really really want to be able to kill the wolves. Their population has  exploded since being introduced and they take livestock very regularly. 

Ive heard rumors of anti bear folks raising money to buy all the tags they can, and sit on them, but Wyoming game and fish isn’t selling many out of state tags. 

 

[Parliament 14334]

42 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

Some asshole down near Uvalde killed a black bear a couple years ago, that had wandered back north from Mexico because of the drought.  

Did he have proof of American citizenship?

[Judge Roybeanbag 11821]

Just now, Parliament said:

Did he have proof of American citizenship?

He had a 2x4 and looked menacing to the fella’s dog.  

[Judge Roybeanbag 11821]

I was hiking the side of Mendenhall Glacier outside of Juneau in early April once upon a time, and I was scared as fuck of bears.   Never saw one but later on that trip I saw a moose fuck a college kid up at University of Alaska Fairbanks outside the library. 

[Judge Roybeanbag 11821]

Dude was running for the automatic doors, took his backpack off and threw it at the beast, and still got rolled.  

[686 3451]

17 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

 I saw a moose fuck a college kid up at University of Alaska Fairbanks outside the library. 

If the crabapples were in season, he must have been a "likes to fight drunk", as opposed to the more mellow Buzzwinkle, who would just get smashed behind the bars and then stagger home later. 

Ungulate walk of shame:

[Judge Roybeanbag 11821]

Like this.

 

[Sbbruin 21898]

I prefer targeting ivory bearing animals.

[deadshank 24653]

3 hours ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

Some asshole down near Uvalde killed a black bear a couple years ago, that had wandered back north from Mexico because of the drought.  

Pretty sure that was in Quemado between Eagle Pass and Del Rio.  Black bear was in an irrigated pecan orchard.  Some dipshit local saw him up in a tree and put a window in the bear with his 30-30.  Dipshit took to calling his hermanos, tios and errbody he could think of to come admire it.  TPWD caught wind of it and went to investigate. 

The festive mood changed when TPWD arrested the shooter, impounded all his shit and the held him until the feds showed up.  

TPWD called a friend of mine that hunted just down the way and asked if they could store some evidence in their cold storage at their camp.  TPWD and the feds showed up with a really heavy body bag and shonuff that black bear was inside.  

The shooter was in a heap of problemas. 

[Pato del Muerto 52616]

Oso unfortunate 

[bolverk 29728]

5 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

20 yr old me did. 40 yr old me doesn't.

If the grizzly population is becoming an ecological problem, then I'm ok with thinning them out a little. But I suspect, despite 686's post, that this isn't about that. This is about appeasing the hunting and ranching lobbies.

I agree with all of this and it hits on the point I was criticized for. The human population of Wyoming is 580,000 (half that of Travis County in a much, much larger area), and most of that population lives in the eastern part of the state in places like Cheyenne, Laramie, Casper, etc.

How much culling is really needed in a vast, unpopulated area like western Wyoming? I assume most ranchers are armed, and I have absolutely zero issues on the self-defense argument.

So what if they kill a few cows each year? Just set up a fund to compensate ranchers at a fair market rate for any of their losses and an ecological equilibrium will eventually be achieved.

[Pato del Muerto 52616]

Jackson and Cody see millions of tourists every summer. 

[deadshank 24653]

6 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I agree with all of this and it hits on the point I was criticized for. The human population of Wyoming is 580,000 (half that of Travis County in a much, much larger area), and most of that population lives in the eastern part of the state in places like Cheyenne, Laramie, Casper, etc.

How much culling is really needed in a vast, unpopulated area like western Wyoming? I assume most ranchers are armed, and I have absolutely zero issues on the self-defense argument.

So what if they kill a few cows each year? Just set up a fund to compensate ranchers at a fair market rate for any of their losses and an ecological equilibrium will eventually be achieved.

The State of Wyoming already pays ranchers for livestock depredated by large carnivores.  

[bolverk 29728]

Problem solved then.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

29 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Oso unfortunate 

Ursa funny.....

[PHLaggie 110]

Guess mama bear 399's days are numbered.

more details on her story...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/show-tell-with-wildlife-photographer-thomas-mangelsen/

tl;dr version: photog makes a grizzly bear famous by photographing her and her cubs, in order to spread the values of conservation and love of nature. In cruel ironic twist, in the run up to Wyoming declaring open season on grizzly hunting, the hunters walk up to the photog and openly state their desire to shoot the now-famous mama grizzly bear because she'd make a cool trophy... because of the photog's famous works.

 

Edited May 26, 2018 by PHLaggie

[bolverk 29728]

17 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Jackson and Cody see millions of tourists every summer. 

Millions visit the French Quarter. I prefer my chances in the wilderness of western Wyoming.

[Pato del Muerto 52616]

8 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Millions visit the French Quarter. I prefer my chances in the wilderness of western Wyoming.

You tell people that live in the French quarter what they should and should not be allowed to do?

[bolverk 29728]

2 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

You tell people that live in the French quarter what they should and should not be allowed to do?

I was speaking from the tourist's perspective. If I'm following your logic, you're advocating vigilantism to shoot down potential criminals before they've even robbed or murdered in order to keep their numbers down.

Again, as a visitor (or even resident), I'd prefer my chances of not getting killed or harmed in Wyoming than New Orleans.

[Gatorubet 30321]

8 hours ago, tbone_ said:

Never understood the desire to kill things for sport.

...said nobody about the passenger pigeon.

[PHLaggie 110]

This is yet the latest edition of a fight that has gone on in American eco/conservation profession practically since the founding of the national parks and the eagerness to settle the West.

Ken Burns in his "The National Parks: America's Best Idea" documentary (and the companion book) covers the tussle between the wing led by Gifford Pinchot (one of the first leader of the Forest Service, and who brought European ideas of forestry and environmental studies to the U.S.) and others that wanted to use parks and federal land conservation as a means to benefit the humans and the human economy, versus those led by John Muir and Stephen Mather-- the first director of the National Park Service-- who wanted to preserve parks as an end in itself-- to protect nature for future American generations.

Pinchot wing of ecological use versus Mather wing of ecological conservation.

One would think we have grown past the old ideas and know better. But the human greed knows no bounds and the fight to preserve nature, just as the fight to preserve American freedom, is a battle that every generation must fight.

[Gatorubet 30321]

18 minutes ago, bolverk said:

 If I'm following your logic, you're advocating vigilantism to shoot down potential criminals before they've even robbed or murdered in order to keep their numbers down.

 

[F250 28826]

7 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

  It'd be pretty fucking cool to see a Grizzly in Big Bend:

 

[Armybrat 40920]

12 hours ago, Hank Scorpio said:

I bet Leonardo DiCaprio is behind all of this. 

Can you really blame him?

 

[686 3451]

I prefer targeting ivory bearing animals.

[Thetexashammer 1062]

You can bear hunt in Arkansas. Black bear of course. Meat's supposed to be really good.

 

My only concern in hunting a Grizzly would be that after I shoot at it, it laughs and then eats me.

[Judge Roybeanbag 11821]

10 hours ago, deadshank said:

Pretty sure that was in Quemado between Eagle Pass and Del Rio.  Black bear was in an irrigated pecan orchard.  Some dipshit local saw him up in a tree and put a window in the bear with his 30-30.  Dipshit took to calling his hermanos, tios and errbody he could think of to come admire it.  TPWD caught wind of it and went to investigate. 

The festive mood changed when TPWD arrested the shooter, impounded all his shit and the held him until the feds showed up.  

TPWD called a friend of mine that hunted just down the way and asked if they could store some evidence in their cold storage at their camp.  TPWD and the feds showed up with a really heavy body bag and shonuff that black bear was inside.  

The shooter was in a heap of problemas. 

I was thinking about this one.

https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local_news/article/Black-bear-killed-in-Kerr-County-1883588.php

 

 

 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4977]

9 hours ago, PHLaggie said:

This is yet the latest edition of a fight that has gone on in American eco/conservation profession practically since the founding of the national parks and the eagerness to settle the West.

Ken Burns in his "The National Parks: America's Best Idea" documentary (and the companion book) covers the tussle between the wing led by Gifford Pinchot (one of the first leader of the Forest Service, and who brought European ideas of forestry and environmental studies to the U.S.) and others that wanted to use parks and federal land conservation as a means to benefit the humans and the human economy, versus those led by John Muir and Stephen Mather-- the first director of the National Park Service-- who wanted to preserve parks as an end in itself-- to protect nature for future American generations.

Pinchot wing of ecological use versus Mather wing of ecological conservation.

One would think we have grown past the old ideas and know better. But the human greed knows no bounds and the fight to preserve nature, just as the fight to preserve American freedom, is a battle that every generation must fight.

The thing is that preservation and conservation don't have to be at odds with each other. We can do both as there is plenty of land for both. In fact we need to do both with many resources. We also can't exactly practice preservation in the way that they envisioned it without doing active management because we've already modified the environment so much that if we just leave it alone it will not be preserved in any sort of historic condition.

[tbone_ 14181]

...said nobody about the passenger pigeon.

And scorpions.

[Armybrat 40920]

While my Dad's regiment was ensconced in the Aleutian Islands 1942-43, some of his troops went out hunting for a moose to supplement their rations with fresh meat. They didn't figure they would be charged by a Kodiak bear after rounding a rock outcrop by a stream. The M1 Carbine used by the sergeant didn't even penetrate the bear hide. The corporal with the M1 Garand finally brought the huge animal down just a few feet in front of them. Dad didn't say if those fellows needed a change of their GI underwear afterwards, but their company did get to enjoy a break from their usual rations. Can't imagine what recipe the field kitchen cooks came up with.

[Pato del Muerto 52616]

Just read in the local paper that if a female is taken, the season ends immediately in the demographic monitoring area. Only one hunter is allowed at a time. 

I guess the argument is, is it trophy hunting or is it wildlife management? 

Its not much of a money grab, as 75% of the tags will be in state $600 tags, so around $10,000 total from in state and $30,000 from 5 out of state tags. 

And refunds for unused tags if the season is stopped early. 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Pato del Muerto

[Johnny Sack 8397]

I suspect they are managing this properly and the money will be used for conservation.  If so, it does not bother me.

I hunt a lot.  I have killed over 500 deer in my life.  I don't shoot bobcats.  The only predators I kill are coyotes, and I shoot every one I see.  Have zero desire to kill a bear.  Have zero desire to shoot a lion.  But I am glad some people do.  Because those type of animals seem to disappear when their hunting is banned.  See Kenya.

I did not understand people getting upset about the rich guy from Dallas who paid hundreds of thousands to shoot a rhino.  Who was non-breeding age and was killing other young rhinos of other breeding ages.

[El Diablo 4232]

3 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Just read in the local paper that if a female is taken, the season ends immediately in the demographic monitoring area. Only one hunter is allowed at a time. 

I guess the argument is, is it trophy hunting or is it wildlife management? 

Its not much of a money grab, as 75% of the tags will be in state $600 tags, so around $10,000 total from in state and $30,000 from 5 out of state tags. 

And refunds for unused tags if the season is stopped early. 

I haven't followed the story closely and so I'm not familiar with the details of the plans for these 22 tags and so I have some questions that might be stupid or have already been addressed. 

It was pointed out earlier that bear have a large range, is it safe to assume that they don't overlap much except for during breeding? Are they solitary critters? Social? I know we see pictures of lots of bears feeding on fish during certain times of the year. Point I'm trying to get to is: Is the bear that the hunter is supposed to take basically picked out for them? If the problem is overpopulation then I'm assuming that the state has identified which animals need to be taken to alleviate the situation in that particular locale? At that point is it even "hunting" in any traditional sense? There's a big difference in my opinion between shooting and hunting. When I lived in North Carolina I knew some guys who hunted bear with hounds. It seemed a bit barbaric but I understood the historical nature of the hunt and it wasn't a given that they would tree and kill the bear though it was likely. I'm no fan of the traditional hunting over a feeder either, for bear or deer. Seems cheap. I grew up in Central Texas hunting small game but never deer, that required either land or money for a lease of which my family had neither. So I learned to hunt the old fashioned way, stalking and still hunting. When I did deer hunt it was in North Carolina and it was on land that I'd been told I could hunt on, no leases there that I'm aware of. I stalked and still hunted for several seasons but never killed one, though I did foolishly take a shot at one that I had little chance of killing. I know that there have been instances where in western states a trophy will be identified and tracked and then the shooter will be notified and brought in to do the deed. That sort of thing isn't hunting and is a shameful way to take game, jmho. I hope these bear hunts don't resemble that in any way. 

[686 3451]

1 hour ago, El Diablo said:

It was pointed out earlier that bear have a large range, is it safe to assume that they don't overlap much except for during breeding? Are they solitary critters? Social? I know we see pictures of lots of bears feeding on fish during certain times of the year. Point I'm trying to get to is: Is the bear that the hunter is supposed to take basically picked out for them? If the problem is overpopulation then I'm assuming that the state has identified which animals need to be taken to alleviate the situation in that particular locale? At that point is it even "hunting" in any traditional sense? 

From what I know: Bears don't usually travel as far or as fast as other apex predators, their "territories" overlap but they don't have habitual patterns to the degree things like deer do (like where you know the same deer that comes to the same spot every evening). They aren't social, Boars are solitary and Sows keep their cubs with them (I believe for 2 seasons). The only time I know of State Game and Fish depts singling out individual animals is when they are targeting problem apex predators that are habitually killing threatened/endangered species, livestock, or endangering people (e.g. mountain lion trackers/hunters can sometimes track individual lions from a kill site). Some State Game and Fish agencies do require non resident hunters to have a guide so as to help the hunters differentiate legal animals or male/female (mountain goats, some sheep, etc.), where the state want hunters to target older males. Sometimes in lieu or requiring a guide, the state will reduce the remaining quota of animals available if hunters shoot too many females during the course of the season.

This Grizzly hunt is setup to target males, and of course most hunters going through the effort to hunt Grizz are going to be looking for a big/mature one. 

Here's a summary of the regs:

Resident Application Fee $5 – If you draw the tag is $600
Non Resident Application Fee $15 – If you draw the tag is $6,000

Licensed grizzly bear hunters shall attend a mandatory training on grizzly bear ecology and management

DMA Hunt Areas 1-6. The total quota for these units will be 10 Boars and 2 Sows
Non DMA – Hunt Area 7. The Quota will be 12 bears

Shooting sows with cubs is not allowed (probably a fineable offence)

Only two hunters will be in the field at a time to allow the state to hit the exact quotas or less and not over-harvest.

 

 

Edited May 29, 2018 by 686

[Pato del Muerto 52616]

My understanding was that if a sow is taken in the dma, the season ends there even if she’s the first bear taken. 

[686 3451]

5 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

My understanding was that if a sow is taken in the dma, the season ends there even if she’s the first bear taken. 

I didn't see the regs on G&F's website, but this synopsis seemed legit:

http://www.westernbearfoundation.org/wyoming-grizzly-bear-hunting-regulation/

 

[Pato del Muerto 52616]

http://www.codyenterprise.com/news/local/article_02753544-6051-11e8-86ef-0f76c71063ca.html

[Orange&White 5539]

On 5/25/2018 at 9:21 PM, bolverk said:

Again, as a visitor (or even resident), I'd prefer my chances of not getting killed or harmed in Wyoming than New Orleans.

In your particular case, I think the primary fear of being harmed or killed in New Orleans probably relates more to the person you are there visiting.