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I want to tell you all the story about The Freshman

hpslugga

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BurntOrange&White

BurntOrange&White 40007

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27 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

The team is constructed by a consensus of sports writers and broadcasters. That’s literally the definition of a popularity contest. 

All pro is more exclusive. I'd agree with you if you were claiming pro bowls. 

 

There is only 1 chosen a year at the QB position. I also think all-pro is the premier metric to look at when comparing vs his peers. Yesterday at the beginning of this debate I was certain he'd be a hall of famer. After researching and looking more into this and his peers He may not even be his era. IMO that is a red flag with regards to making it to canton. A few more seasons and perhaps a another super bowl ring could change my mind. 

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Codaxx

Codaxx 5841

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Just now, BurntOrange&White said:

All pro is more exclusive. I'd agree with you if you were claiming pro bowls. 

 

There is only 1 chosen a year at the QB position. I also think all-pro is the premier metric to look at when comparing vs his peers. Yesterday at the beginning of this debate I was certain he'd be a hall of famer. After researching and looking more into this and his peers He may not even be his era. IMO that is a red flag with regards to making it to canton. A few more seasons and perhaps a another super bowl ring could change my mind. 

It does depend on how he plays over the course of his career, but this is one thing that does stand out to me. 

Brady played 28 pro bowl selections on offense during his career

Rodgers played with 22 offensive Pro Bowl players

Stafford played with 10. He only had a single season with a pro bowl OL. I am not sure he has ever played with a good OL. He has played a career with basically the Texas OL 

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Gene Parmesan

Gene Parmesan 4014

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28 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

All pro is more exclusive. I'd agree with you if you were claiming pro bowls. 

 

There is only 1 chosen a year at the QB position. I also think all-pro is the premier metric to look at when comparing vs his peers. Yesterday at the beginning of this debate I was certain he'd be a hall of famer. After researching and looking more into this and his peers He may not even be his era. IMO that is a red flag with regards to making it to canton. A few more seasons and perhaps a another super bowl ring could change my mind. 

This is where I am at.  There are players in the HOF that shouldn't be, but you don't fix that problem by saying player X is better than this guy so he's in.  I think the best approach is to judge him by his peers, and Stafford has never been in the top group of his era.  Every QB of this era that plays 10+ years is going to have a shit ton of yards and TDs.  More success can certainly change my mind.  And yeah Eli Manning will be in the HOF and there is something criminal that he would be in and not Stafford.  I'd take Detroit Lions Stafford over Eli any day.  

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4062

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41 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

IMO that is a red flag with regards to making it to canton

The red flag is in your reasoning. You’re refusing to answer a simple question, which tends to suggest that you’re arguing in bad faith.

Again, what QB that had 50k yards and 300 TD’s along with a ring has been turned away by the HOF?

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Slacks

Slacks 6862

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All I know is... this thread is disrespecting the GOAT Slayer, Eli Manning.

 

Stafford will be in the HoF.  He's going to end up with 60,000 yards.  Nobody will hold it against him for playing a long career with one of the worst franchises in the last 50 years. Tom Brady wouldn't have won in DET, either.

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BurntOrange&White

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11 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

 

The red flag is in your reasoning. You’re refusing to answer a simple question, which tends to suggest that you’re arguing in bad faith.

Again, what QB that had 50k yards and 300 TD’s along with a ring has been turned away by the HOF?

In this day and age of football numbers are going to become meaningless for QB's. The rules and etc have changed. 

 

Matt Ryan has almost 60k yards and 350+ TD's....is he a hall of famer to you? IMO he's not to me.

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Codaxx

Codaxx 5841

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34 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

This is where I am at.  There are players in the HOF that shouldn't be, but you don't fix that problem by saying player X is better than this guy so he's in.  I think the best approach is to judge him by his peers, and Stafford has never been in the top group of his era.  Every QB of this era that plays 10+ years is going to have a shit ton of yards and TDs.  More success can certainly change my mind.  And yeah Eli Manning will be in the HOF and there is something criminal that he would be in and not Stafford.  I'd take Detroit Lions Stafford over Eli any day.  

There is only one issue with this. 

 

Every QB of this era that plays 10+ years is going to have a shit ton of yards and TDs.

 

This is 100% true, but it is also a ridiculously small sample size. There are only 12 QBs to start 200 games in the NFL history. Of that list 7 are eligible for the HOF. 6 of them are in the HOF, with only Testaverde not being in the hall.  You take any list of a 10 years starters and you are looking at HOF candidates, because it is extremely rare to be healthy and  productive for 10+ years in the NFL. 

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4062

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1 minute ago, BurntOrange&White said:

In this day and age of football numbers are going to become meaningless for QB's. The rules and etc have changed. 

 

Matt Ryan has almost 60k yards and 350+ TD's....is he a hall of famer to you? IMO he's not to me.

Matt Ryan does not fit the description I gave you. You knew that. 

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BurntOrange&White

BurntOrange&White 40007

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1 minute ago, hpslugga said:

Matt Ryan does not fit the description I gave you. You knew that. 

Joe Flacco will be. :)

 

 

As Codaxx has said, QB's will put up numbers in this era....I don't think numbers will matter going forward as much as they used to, except in Rushing. A runningback hitting that 10k number will be more meaningful IMO.

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Covri

Covri 6253

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9 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

Matt Ryan does not fit the description I gave you. You knew that. 

Swap out super bowl win with league mvp and Matt Ryan has been a better QB and has more yards and touchdowns even if you account for his one extra year in the league.  So if Ryan isn’t a HOFer how can Stafford be based solely on one super bowl win? If Donald  doesn’t get that sack and Burrow wins the game does that mean Stafford is not a HOFer? If that’s the thin line then Stafford is not a sure fire hall of famer to begin with. 

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4062

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5 minutes ago, Snacks said:

All I know is... this thread is disrespecting the GOAT Slayer, Eli Manning.

 

Stafford will be in the HoF.  He's going to end up with 60,000 yards.  Nobody will hold it against him for playing a long career with one of the worst franchises in the last 50 years. Tom Brady wouldn't have won in DET, either.

It's actually worse than you think: Detroit's been one of the worst franchises in the last 60 years. 

 

1 minute ago, BurntOrange&White said:

Joe Flacco will be. :)

Uh no he won't.

But you're missing the whole point of the question. The point is that the answer is "there is none that fit that description," so you'd be asking the HOF to consider making a special exception based on what amounts to the fallacy of special pleading. That is the red flag.

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4062

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1 minute ago, Covri said:

Swap out super bowl win with league mvp and Matt Ryan has been a better QB and has more yards and touchdowns even if you account for his one extra year in the league.  So if Ryan isn’t a HOFer how can Stanford be based solely on one super bowl win?

It's not "solely based on one super bowl win."

 

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Slacks

Slacks 6862

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3 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

It's actually worse than you think: Detroit's been one of the worst franchises in the last 60 years. 

Yeah, but I tried to keep it within my lifetime...

I mean, this team made Barry Sanders and Megatron say, "Eh, I'm good. I'll retire early."

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Covri

Covri 6253

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4 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

It's not "solely based on one super bowl win."

 

So is Matt Ryan a Hall of Famer in your eyes?

 

22 hours ago, hpslugga said:

Has nothing to do with “the moment.” I’ve been saying that his ticket to Canton is a ring away from being punched for a few years now. He punched it. It’s really that simple.

Seems like it is based on that one super bowl win to you. And that he went to Highland Park…

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4062

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5 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Matt Ryan will finish with Dan Marino numbers.  Will that get him in?  I bet it does at some point. 

It will and it'd be bullshit if he didn't. But that's not why I was dismissive of his name being mentioned. I asked a simple question that multiple posters are taking great care to avoid answering. 

EDIT: He'll cover Marino on the yards (he's only like 1,600 short, so he'll cover it this coming season barring an injury) but not sure on the TD's. Not that it makes any difference, but just had to point that out.

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Codaxx

Codaxx 5841

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16 minutes ago, Covri said:

Swap out super bowl win with league mvp and Matt Ryan has been a better QB and has more yards and touchdowns even if you account for his one extra year in the league.  So if Ryan isn’t a HOFer how can Stafford be based solely on one super bowl win? If Donald  doesn’t get that sack and Burrow wins the game does that mean Stafford is not a HOFer? If that’s the thin line then Stafford is not a sure fire hall of famer to begin with. 

I think I would say take a look at the talent the 2 have played with. Stafford has had 9 Pro Bowl selections (Calvin is 6 of them) on offense with him and Matt Ryan has had 30. I would certainly factor that in. I also dont think Matt Ryan is an obvious Hall of Fame exclusion. 

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Johnny Sack

Johnny Sack 8397

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18 minutes ago, Codaxx said:

I think I would say take a look at the talent the 2 have played with. Stafford has had 9 Pro Bowl selections (Calvin is 6 of them) on offense with him and Matt Ryan has had 30. I would certainly factor that in. I also dont think Matt Ryan is an obvious Hall of Fame exclusion. 

That is not accurate.  Kenny Golladay, TJ Hockenson, TJ Lang (T), Frank Ragnow (C), and Golden Tate all made pro bowls with Stafford.  Plus Cooper Kupp.

 

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Codaxx

Codaxx 5841

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33 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

That is not accurate.  Kenny Golladay, TJ Hockenson, TJ Lang (T), Frank Ragnow (C), and Golden Tate all made pro bowls with Stafford.  Plus Cooper Kupp.

 

MY bad I missed 2, Hockenson and Lang. That said that moves it from 10 to 30 to 12 to 30, so it I think the argument is essentially unchanged .

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closetohumping

closetohumping 17464

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On 2/14/2022 at 4:50 AM, Pam Cummings said:

If Tony Boselli is a HOFer then Matthew Stafford is 100% a HOFer.

Boselli was the best at his position several years.  
 

 

I think Matt should get in but held kind of a stat compliler, like raffy palmeiro.  And lol @hpslugga negging someone for disagreeing.  

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4062

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3 minutes ago, closetohumping said:

Boselli was the best at his position several years.  
 

 

I think Matt should get in but held kind of a stat compliler, like raffy palmeiro.  And lol @hpslugga negging someone for disagreeing.  

He got negged bc he negged my OP, not because he “disagreed.” As someone else said, that’s just an indicator of sucking at life. 

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Hornius Emeritus

Hornius Emeritus 12487

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15 hours ago, hpslugga said:

It will and it'd be bullshit if he didn't. But that's not why I was dismissive of his name being mentioned. I asked a simple question that multiple posters are taking great care to avoid answering. 

 



Zero. There are zero QBs who have a SB ring, 300 TDs and 50k yards that have been denied a spot in the HOF.

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7 hours ago, Hornius Emeritus said:



Zero. There are zero QBs who have a SB ring, 300 TDs and 50k yards that have been denied a spot in the HOF.

It’ll be a no brainer when he’s at 75,000 and 300 because he’ll likely get there. 

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6 hours ago, TurkeyChew said:

Okay be honest. How many of us own a Youth Medium "Scots for Stafford" shirt? Seems like there are a couple. You can't hide!

We have two at our house. My teenage daughter doesn’t but my other two do. 

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20 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

Your teenage daughter wears a YM?

Huh?  I was reading the thread and asked her if she had one. She said no. My two younger kids wore them to SB parties. My youngest goes to Bradfield so she didn’t make the UP Elementary pic. Apparently Stafford was one of those people. 

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Carl Spackler

Carl Spackler 3504

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On 2/13/2022 at 8:52 PM, hpslugga said:

Not saying he isn’t good, just that the idea of him deserving a PB nomination ahead of Stafford is a bad joke.

Disagree.  Not saying Cousins is better.  In fact, if you gave me a choice of picking one or the other in general, I'd take Stafford

All I'm saying is that they both had similarly good seasons in '21.  Statistically, Stafford has the edge in certain categories, Cousins has the edge in others.  To suggest that Stafford played head and shoulders above Cousins this past season to the point that there is no comparison between the two . . . well, that's simply wrong. 

     

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Carl Spackler

Carl Spackler 3504

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On 2/14/2022 at 4:50 AM, Pam Cummings said:

If Tony Boselli is a HOFer then Matthew Stafford is 100% a HOFer.

Tony Boselli was an absolutely elite OT during almost his entire career.  The only knock against him was the lack of longevity.  From an on-field performance standpoint he was definitely a HOFer.  Boselli was better at his position than Stafford is at his, and that's coming from someone who respects Stafford a lot.   

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Hagbard Celine

Hagbard Celine 10923

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On 2/13/2022 at 9:17 PM, hpslugga said:

On Saturday November 16th 2002, we went out for an early afternoon playoff game in Mesquite at Hanby Stadium against Sulphur Springs. Our quarterback, DFW Offensive Player of the year Bill Foran, sat out the game due to a high ankle sprain he suffered 2 weeks earlier in the district championship against Wylie. Our starting QB that afternoon was our strong safety, Rob Rain. 

Behind Rob was this pudgy, doughy white 14 year old freshman. He had just moved up to the varsity roster, the first freshman to do so since Lance McIlhenny around a quarter century before.

This kid would run past me every day on the way to practice because in 9th grade, you’re told to run your ass to practice from 7th period since we don’t have time to fuck around. Because the first thing varsity players would do after 7th period was watch film, get taped up, have position meetings, etc, none of us had the need to haul ass to practice like freshmen did. When he’d pass me (or anyone else), he’d always say “excuse me, sir.” Sir? I’m 18 years old and this 14 year old is calling me “sir?” Damn.

When we got near the end of practice we always had to go to the sideline to do wind sprints for conditioning and we did them by position groups so it had the feel of a legit race. They put The Freshman with us kickers since, as Coach Randy Allen put it to him, that’s what his speed and conditioning indicated. Of course the two of us (starter Ryan Wolcott and myself) would whip his ass. He actually went over to the side to puke after Monday’s conditioning.

Anyways, cut to the 4th quarter of this first round game against Sulphur Springs. We had just scored a touchdown to go up 44-7 (or something to that effect). I was called on to execute the sky/pooch kickoff since it was against the wind. 

The upback let the ball go through his arms, bounced between his legs and one of our guys recovered the muff. 

On the very next play, The Freshman was put in. He didn’t throw a single pass across the line of scrimmage but still managed to conduct a touchdown drive to make it 51-7. We ended up winning 51-15. 

Tonight, almost 20 years later, that very same Freshman led his team on a game winning TD drive in the Super Bowl and is very likely bound for Canton.

Jim Plunkett has TWO RINGS and awaits his invitation to Canton.

Cazart.

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14 hours ago, Carl Spackler said:

Disagree.  Not saying Cousins is better.  In fact, if you gave me a choice of picking one or the other in general, I'd take Stafford

All I'm saying is that they both had similarly good seasons in '21.  Statistically, Stafford has the edge in certain categories, Cousins has the edge in others.  To suggest that Stafford played head and shoulders above Cousins this past season to the point that there is no comparison between the two . . . well, that's simply wrong. 

     

No, it’s not. 665 more yards and 8 more TDs. 103 ratings for both. Only in interceptions did Cousins outperform. 665 yards is not splitting hairs. Stafford had a much more difficult schedule too. 

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14 hours ago, Hagbard Celine said:

Jim Plunkett has TWO RINGS and awaits his invitation to Canton.

Cazart.

Lol. Yeah let’s pick the guy that has a 67.5 rating, barely 25,000 yards, and many more interceptions than TDs. 

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Carl Spackler

Carl Spackler 3504

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46 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

No, it’s not. 665 more yards and 8 more TDs. 103 ratings for both. Only in interceptions did Cousins outperform. 665 yards is not splitting hairs. Stafford had a much more difficult schedule too. 

8 more TDs but more than twice the number of picks (17 to 7).  Cousins' RTG was higher as well.  Stafford had more yards, but he also had more pass attempts and a better O-line.

Like I wrote above, I'm not saying Cousins is better than Stafford.  (Although PFF did have him ranked just above Stafford this season.)  My point is that a selection of Cousins to the Pro Bowl ahead of Stafford (assuming Stafford could have even played) wasn't completely out of the realm of reason.  There are good arguments for both.  That's the very definition of a close call. 

We're going to have to agree to disagree. 

 

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