Remington Arms has settled with Sandy Hook families

[fattyflattie 4636]

Comments says she passed. Don’t know if true. 

[TurkeyChew 383]

Just read this, thought it was interesting:

Quote

 

Following the families’ approach could be difficult:

• States have a patchwork of consumer protection laws like Connecticut’s: New York has adopted one, and California lawmakers have introduced another such bill. But such measures are far from common, and legal experts had long questioned whether the federal shield would protect Remington as it has other gun manufacturers.
• Gun industry executives also argue that the settlement was agreed to by insurers of Remington, which is bankrupt, and that solvent companies would mount more vigorous legal defenses.

The industry is expected to face more such lawsuits, as other victims of mass shootings test the legal strategy. Potentially helping their case is Remington’s obligation in the settlement to release thousands of pages of internal company documents that, the Sandy Hook families contend, could reveal intent to aggressively market firearms to troubled young men like the one responsible for the 2012 shooting. (That said, legal experts caution that Remington is unlikely to disclose anything that could create additional legal liability.)

 

 

[Nivek 16860]

This is my big problem with it. When I was a kid I had to take a week of hunter's safety classes (for all ages - about 10 hours total) in order to get a license to hunt. About half the time was dedicated to the correct usage, carry, and storage of firearms. Even though my father had taught me all this, I still had to prove I understood it in the final test to pass. Don't pass, no hunting license.
I'd like to see a gun safety course be required to purchase firearms. It would be boring as fuck for most responsible gun-owning people, but it might help reduce the number of idiots running around armed. Either because they are too dumb to pass or they learn a few things that would persuade them to be more responsible with them. 

1) I honestly do not know if classes on just focusing on storage and safety would really help.   It sounds like the incidents are as result of emotional people, in lizard brain mode, are reaching for a gun.  Logic has flown out the window as their adrenaline is coursing through their brain.    I think it is entirely reasonable to expect for people who are armed and emotionally compromised to react impulsively.  I am guessing that doofus in Miami who shot up his own car and shot at other motorists on the highway would have never considered that action and if he watched someone else do it, he would agree that was fucking dumb as shit.   
We, as a society have morphed individualism into selfishness which is not the same thing.   Empathy and compromise is considered weak, and taken to extremes it is.  We need an active campaign of how to live in a society and social responsibilities taught in schools and played on air.   Something like a dickhead cuts you off in traffic, and you get all angry and shit.  But then the commercial cuts to inside that car and some parent is dealing with a kid who is sick and on her way to school.   Or a young man trying to get his wife to the hospital for their birth.  Instead our driver's licenses programs are designed about punishments for kids who drink, and punishment for drunk drivers and so little is built around skills and empathy, and the correct way to handle situations.  
2) TV is a double edge sword.  I was listening the other day to a podcast which discussed how car accidents and suicides of normal folks increases after a suicide by a celebrity.  There is a clear influence on TV and it isn't just for kids.  If we continue to watch programs where people solve problems with guns it becomes ingrained in us.  If our heroes are all people who use weapons than we are doing ourselves a disservice.  It does seem that the incidents of school shootings increased because of the coverage of school shootings in combination with the proliferation of firearms and push to selfishness.   Anecdotally, I do not recall hearing about level of violence directed at police that we are currently hearing.  The number of ambushes seems to have increased.   Houston shootings and violent crime are on the rise, we have an underlying psycho-social problem.  

School shootings tend to get the most attention, and since 2000 on average there has been one school shooting every 31.6 days. In 2018, however, there has been an average of one school shooting (accidental or intentional) every week. - Link 1

"What we found was that for the mass killings — so these are high-profile mass killings where there's at least four people killed — there was significant evidence of contagion," says Towers. "We also found significant evidence of contagion in the school shootings." -Link 2

Link 1 Link 2 
3) Maybe we need a universally reviled guy like Adolph Hitler driving around and road raging and a second campaign that say's don't be a hitler.  Just have him frothing at the mouth in one of his speeches, and acting like a madman.   We can do campaigns designed at leveling social embarrassment at people who are selfish assholes, not individualists.   Morons who take guns into stores so they can pretend to be 'safe' and 'exercising their rights.'   You have a right to be an asshole, we also have a right to mock and humiliate you for sleeping with a gun next to your pillow.  Maybe some campaign about a guy getting ready to go on a date, getting all dressed up and talking to his date.  The camera cuts and shows his date is an AR-15.  He takes it home starts making out with it, takes off his shirt and grabs some gun oil as the camera fades out.  I don't know, I am not a creative type, but something designed to embarrass people for fetishizing firearms.   
4) Stop selling targets that look like people.  
 
5) My comment above about selfishness is not necessarily restricted to guns and cars.   I see it with parents and kids.  Reactive instead of empathetic.  I get it, I have to fight this urge within me as well. The other day my daughter had her feelings hurt by her neighbor friend.  I learned a bit more about the exchange and chat with my wife.  She has a closer relationship with the other mom so they chat and instead of listening or trying to understand she just shuts it down deflects to something my daughter did (which hysterically amounted to not wanting be a follower all the time and not get bossed around).   

One day, I was called and told that my son and 2 other boys bullied a kid.  Everyone reacted. I talked to my son after picking him up.  He was completely confused.  The boys were in line to use the restroom (which was one at a time - small school).  The other boy needed to use the bathroom and wanted to cut in line.  He had an emergency need to poop.  There was another kid in the bathroom.  The boy did get to cut in line, and he hung up his backpack.  But he had pooped himself.   He came out, upset.  The other kids used the bathroom.  To the parents of they boy it became a bullying incident that caused the kid to crap himself, as they 'prevented' him from going to the bathroom.  Allegedly, the boys threw his backpack in the trash.   No one bothered to look that there were pegs to hang up things just above the trash, and that more likely than not, the thing fell.  The next day, it was all over from the admin as they figured it out and wanted to move on.  They learned from this. The parents of the kid were insistent that their kid was bullied and pooped himself, but the school would hear no more of it.  They just couldn’t imagine that an accident happened and take fucking responsibility for it and Maybe use it as a teaching moment to help their kiddo out. No he was a victim. He is being taught if you fuck up, it’s someone else’s fault. And those kids who let him cut in line are being taught a lesson as well.


 

[Nivek 16860]

Those guys.  Gawd.
But, really, the middle pic of the guns propped up on the booth seat give me the willies.
For the same reason you don't hold a rifle or shotgun when going over or under a fence, you don't want a bunch of guns lined up like that.  One could fall over and with all that shit hanging off em, slings, rails, shell holders, something could easily catch the trigger of one of them as it fell.
And I wonder how many have a round in the chamber?  It does look like a couple of em have open bolts and something stuck in the chamber to illuminate that fact.

How does one take a piss with one of those slung over their shoulder like that? Especially when you have the pee shields in the urinals or must they fucking squat and emasculate themselves further? Do they hang their guns on the coat rack if they need to take a dump?

Fucking losers.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

3 minutes ago, Nivek said:

How does one take a piss with one of those slung over their shoulder like that? Especially when you have the pee shields in the urinals or must they fucking squat and emasculate themselves further? Do they hang their guns on the coat rack if they need to take a dump?

Fucking losers.

nah, they hold it pointed at the door in case antifuh! decides on a sneak attack

[fattyflattie 4636]

1 hour ago, TurkeyChew said:

Potentially helping their case is Remington’s obligation in the settlement to release thousands of pages of internal company documents that, the Sandy Hook families contend, could reveal intent to aggressively market firearms to troubled young men like the one responsible for the 2012 shooting.

If that is even remotely true, then fuck them.  

[Brisketexan 104628]

49 minutes ago, Nivek said:

We, as a society have morphed individualism into selfishness which is not the same thing.   Empathy and compromise is considered weak, and taken to extremes it is.  We need an active campaign of how to live in a society and social responsibilities taught in schools and played on air.   Something like a dickhead cuts you off in traffic, and you get all angry and shit.  But then the commercial cuts to inside that car and some parent is dealing with a kid who is sick and on her way to school.   Or a young man trying to get his wife to the hospital for their birth.  Instead our driver's licenses programs are designed about punishments for kids who drink, and punishment for drunk drivers and so little is built around skills and empathy, and the correct way to handle situations.  

So, so, SO much this.  Wish I could rep it twice.  Individualism fetishized to the point that we have made selfishness practically a sacrament.  And in turn, empathy and compromise are thus unforgivable sins (remember how the people who are now champions of this philosophy used to lament the phenomenon in black gang-banger culture of shooting someone "because he disrespected me?"  Now.....they are on board with a similar ethos).  "Fuck your feelings!"  And not just "I don't care if you're offended," but rather GLORIFYING "triggering tha libz" or whatnot.  Doing shit for the express purpose of offending and hurting people is to be bragged about and paraded around like a trophy.

We do what's selfish because dammit, IT'S MUH RIGHT!  And that's it.  Well, add in the "points gained" by showing how you can hurt/trigger other people.  That's close to the entire reasoning.

I will say that when you look to younger folks -- say those under 20 -- and that is NOT the dominant ethos.  Instead, like every generation does, they in large part react AGAINST that trend.  They go out of their way (and yeah, sometimes too far out of their way) to avoid hurting someone's feelings or offending them.  So, by my accounting, we've got probably another 10 years or so of dealing with toxic individualism/selfishness as the dominant social ethos, then it will wane.  But it's going to be a shitty decade to get there.

[TurkeyChew 383]

17 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

So, so, SO much this.  Wish I could rep it twice.  Individualism fetishized to the point that we have made selfishness practically a sacrament.  And in turn, empathy and compromise are thus unforgivable sins (remember how the people who are now champions of this philosophy used to lament the phenomenon in black gang-banger culture of shooting someone "because he disrespected me?"  Now.....they are on board with a similar ethos).  "Fuck your feelings!"  

I think you stumbled upon the answer on accident here.

The black gang-banger (specific race descriptor yours, not mine) is killing over ethereal concepts like "[dis]respect" because the practical value of life in the day-to-day world they inhabit has lost it's value. Life is fast and cheap in that culture and environment.

These days we live in a broader American culture and environment where practical value (read: American Happiness Reaches 5 Year Low) is such that our only dopamine and serotonin and oxytocin hits are coming from fighting and conflict and hating each other and the other team. Oh, and Drugs/Booze.

I blame the internet revolution, personally, but there is no putting the toothpaste back in the tube. The question is what do we do now that we live in a mild dystopia?

[TexasEd 8064]

22 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Totally agree with this.  Oddly enough, it occurred to me that the proliferation of feral pigs has kind of contributed to the deterioration of "gun culture."

While the hunting of feral hogs is completely legitimate, it is unlike any other type of hunting.  As a pest, I don't believe licenses are required anywhere.  There's no season, no hunter safety courses.  And, they're so numerous that squeezing off five or ten shots on as many pigs is also legit, as is other accouterments of tacticool like night vision.  And I don't think rather extraordinary hunting practices, like shooting from vehicles or helicopters is regulated or forbidden.

So, unlike a lot of other hunting, which requires licenses, safety courses, patience, and skill, hog hunting attracts the bump stock bros that just want to blast shit and have some kind of reason to do so.

To hunt pigs in Texas you (1) must have a valid hunting license and (2) safety course if you are not grandfathered in (born before 9/2/1971). There is/was a one time exception on the safety course. There is no season and the means and methods are much less stringent.

[Brisketexan 104628]

30 minutes ago, TurkeyChew said:

The question is what do we do now that we live in a mild dystopia?

Sit back and watch it burn, like the people who are championing it want.  Oh, and give up on hoping that the flames don't reach you.  They'll get all of us, eventually.  We live in a hell of our own making, because this is how we've chosen for things to be.

[Brisketexan 104628]

1 minute ago, TexasEd said:

To hunt pigs in Texas you (1) must have a valid hunting license and (2) safety course if you are not grandfathered in (born before 9/2/1971). There is/was a one time exception on the safety course. There is no season and the means and methods are much less stringent.

Let's do a little juxtaposition, though.

If I want to be out in the field -- dirt and cactus and such -- hunting ANYTHING in the State of Texas, and I was born after 1971, I have to take a course that is heavy in gun safety and responsibility.

If that same person wants to walk down the street, go to Starbucks, etc., strapped and ready to blast any HUMAN he sees.....the training and safety requirements are......zero.  None.  Not a single thing.  Buy the gun.  Load up, carry it wherever you want.  So long as you don't intend to hunt ANIMALS with it, you have no requirements.  But if you intend to use it to shoot a single feral piglet, you best have that hunter safety training.

Doesn't that strike you as a touched messed up?

[TexasEd 8064]

22 hours ago, Satchel said:

You mean assault type weapons? I’ve learned language matters when talking guns with gun lovers.

Language matters to doctors, lawyers and professors too.  Even chefs are particular on calling their pans and knives by the correct names and ranchers know the breeds of cattle on their place.  Calling Bevo a bull just exposes ignorance.

Let's just say that language matters especially when you want to pass a law on it and it be up for interpretation in a courtroom. See how I brought it back to the lawyers?

 

[TexasEd 8064]

20 hours ago, Sbbruin said:

 

 

 

19 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Those guys.  Gawd.

But, really, the middle pic of the guns propped up on the booth seat give me the willies.

For the same reason you don't hold a rifle or shotgun when going over or under a fence, you don't want a bunch of guns lined up like that.  One could fall over and with all that shit hanging off em, slings, rails, shell holders, something could easily catch the trigger of one of them as it fell.

And I wonder how many have a round in the chamber?  It does look like a couple of em have open bolts and something stuck in the chamber to illuminate that fact.

This.  I wonder if the picture I left in the first quote is even legal.  It's an "open carry" law not a prop it up on a restaurant booth law.  If they are not carrying (under control) are they legal? (I don't know because doing that in a town makes no sense to me so never looked it up).  

[Satchel 6908]

1 hour ago, TurkeyChew said:

I think you stumbled upon the answer on accident here.

The black gang-banger (specific race descriptor yours, not mine) is killing over ethereal concepts like "[dis]respect" because the practical value of life in the day-to-day world they inhabit has lost it's value. Life is fast and cheap in that culture and environment.

These days we live in a broader American culture and environment where practical value (read: American Happiness Reaches 5 Year Low) is such that our only dopamine and serotonin and oxytocin hits are coming from fighting and conflict and hating each other and the other team. Oh, and Drugs/Booze.

I blame the internet revolution, personally, but there is no putting the toothpaste back in the tube. The question is what do we do now that we live in a mild dystopia?

You and Brisket are ver much on point.

[TurkeyChew 383]

53 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Sit back and watch it burn, like the people who are championing it want.  Oh, and give up on hoping that the flames don't reach you.  They'll get all of us, eventually.  We live in a hell of our own making, because this is how we've chosen for things to be.

Actually, I think the following makes sense with the bifurcation of America we are seeing in the response to our falling. If we allow that the visceral feeling of ennui and malaise of us living in a mild dystopia is felt by all (both conscious and sub/unconsciously), then:

Group A: Fighting it. They don't accept it. They want to channel their inner Dylan Thomas and not go gentle into the good night. We can still salvage America from being the aforementioned mild dystopia.

Group B: Embrace it. Accept the new world order that is America in 2022. They want to ensure their position (or better their position) with the brokenness that widespread technology and connectivity has created and channel their inner Littlefinger and see chaos as a ladder.

The above is not without a fair share of irony.

Edited February 16, 2022 by TurkeyChew

[Brisketexan 104628]

7 minutes ago, TurkeyChew said:

Actually, I think the following makes sense with the bifurcation of America we are seeing in the response to our falling. If we allow that the visceral feeling of ennui and malaise of us living in a mild dystopia is felt by all (both conscious and sub/unconsciously), then:

Group A: Fighting it. They don't accept it. They want to channel their inner Dylan Thomas and not go gentle into the good night. We can still salvage America from being the aforementioned mild dystopia.

Group B: Embrace it. Accept the new world order that is America in 2022. They want to ensure their position (or better their position) with the brokenness that widespread technology and connectivity has created and channel their inner Littlefinger and see chaos as a ladder.

The above is not without a fair share of irony.

Group C -- we've tried option A.  We face nothing but venom and renewed vigor intent on championing an approach of selfishness and pain.  We've not just tried and failed, any effort to improve our awareness and our lot has only made things worse, as it inspires even stronger cruelty and selfishness in response.  But....we can't bring ourselves to be Group B, because we still have a conscience.  

So, here we are.  On the ledge.   Watching it burn because there's nothing we can do to stop it.

[Sbbruin 21737]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Sit back and watch it burn, like the people who are championing it want.  Oh, and give up on hoping that the flames don't reach you.  They'll get all of us, eventually.  We live in a hell of our own making, because this is how we've chosen for things to be.

[fattyflattie 4636]

1 hour ago, TexasEd said:

To hunt pigs in Texas you (1) must have a valid hunting license and (2) safety course if you are not grandfathered in (born before 9/2/1971). There is/was a one time exception on the safety course. There is no season and the means and methods are much less stringent.

Landowners need not be licensed for hogs. 
 

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

If I want to be out in the field -- dirt and cactus and such -- hunting ANYTHING in the State of Texas, and I was born after 1971, I have to take a course that is heavy in gun safety and responsibility.

Define heavy. I took and passed it when I was 8 or so. It very well could have changed (probably has) since then but at that time it was this is a mourning dove, this is a white wing, and this is an 8 point buck. Now let’s go shoot .22’s for demonstration of safety (after a brief review of the golden rules), and you can take a test consisting of questions like: can you trespass to recover a wounded animal?    

[TurkeyChew 383]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Group C -- we've tried option A.  We face nothing but venom and renewed vigor intent on championing an approach of selfishness and pain.  We've not just tried and failed, any effort to improve our awareness and our lot has only made things worse, as it inspires even stronger cruelty and selfishness in response.  But....we can't bring ourselves to be Group B, because we still have a conscience.  

So, here we are.  On the ledge.   Watching it burn because there's nothing we can do to stop it.

Whoa. Talk about some journal/writing therapy. You might take a break and come back and reread that. I definitely can't empathize, but I do appreciate and was moved with what I read as a heart-heavy resignation and hopelessness. I felt your exhaustion in those words. But you can't give up. Take some time and recharge and work on your wellness and health if you need to, but at some point you gotta get back in the game one way or another, I think. Otherwise you are just a voice from the sidelines, criticizing those who are doing.

[Brisketexan 104628]

Just now, fattyflattie said:

Landowners need not be licensed for hogs. 
 

Define heavy. I took and passed it when I was 8 or so. It very well could have changed (probably has) since then but at that time it was this is a mourning dove, this is a white wing, and this is an 8 point buck. Now let’s go shoot .22’s for demonstration of safety (after a brief review of the golden rules), and you can take a test consisting of questions like: can you trespass to recover a wounded animal?    

My son took it just a few years ago -- from what he told me, it covered all the gun safety basics he had long known (been shooting with me since he was little), and covered them in some detail.  The point being, it's actual firearms safety training.

Of which zero is required if I want to go patrolling the mean streets of Austin ready to take out people instead of pigs.

[Brisketexan 104628]

5 minutes ago, TurkeyChew said:

Whoa. Talk about some journal/writing therapy. You might take a break and come back and reread that. I definitely can't empathize, but I do appreciate and was moved with what I read as a heart-heavy resignation and hopelessness. I felt your exhaustion in those words. But you can't give up. Take some time and recharge and work on your wellness and health if you need to, but at some point you gotta get back in the game one way or another, I think. Otherwise you are just a voice from the sidelines, criticizing those who are doing.

Counterpoint: sometimes, the smartest move is figuring out when to quit wasting your time and energy on something futile.

As a society, we are dead-set on as much self-inflicted pain as possible.  Nothing any of us do will even slow that down.  In fact, our efforts have only further inflamed the situation.  "We'll show YOU!   WATCH US TOUCH THE STOVE!  WATCH US!"    Time to get of the way, and let the inevitable unfold.  It's going to be horrific, but that's how we want it to be.  

[Sbbruin 21737]

7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Counterpoint: sometimes, the smartest move is figuring out when to quit wasting your time and energy on something futile.

As a society, we are dead-set on as much self-inflicted pain as possible.  Nothing any of us do will even slow that down.  In fact, our efforts have only further inflamed the situation.  "We'll show YOU!   WATCH US TOUCH THE STOVE!  WATCH US!"    Time to get of the way, and let the inevitable unfold.  It's going to be horrific, but that's how we want it to be.  

I think part of the despair may stem from being in Texas.  Some of the attitudes there are, um, extreme.

[fattyflattie 4636]

38 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

My son took it just a few years ago -- from what he told me, it covered all the gun safety basics he had long known (been shooting with me since he was little), and covered them in some detail.  The point being, it's actual firearms safety training.

Of which zero is required if I want to go patrolling the mean streets of Austin ready to take out people instead of pigs.

I get it, a fraction of an amount is better than none. Ironically, the “golden rules” sheet we reviewed was Remington branded iirc, or sponsored.   Same sheet you get in the box when you purchase a rifle. 

[fattyflattie 4636]

24 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

I think part of the despair may stem from being in Texas.  Some of the attitudes there are, um, extreme.

Many times you find what you search for. 

[YChang 3431]

21 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

Some of the attitudes there are, um, extreme.

Have you glanced over yonder at what your fellow Californians' attitude in Orange County and the Inland Empire are recently? 😀

[Sbbruin 21737]

2 hours ago, YChang said:

Have you glanced over yonder at what your fellow Californians' attitude in Orange County and the Inland Empire are recently? 😀

You mean these guys?

[Gil Bang 25898]

2 hours ago, YChang said:

Have you glanced over yonder at what your fellow Californians' attitude in Huntington Beach and the Inland Empire are recently? 😀

FIFY.

 

Although you were technically correct, HB isn't like the rest of OC.  HB is the Florida of California.