Ukraine War

[cactusflinthead 27602]

 

['stache 21866]

5 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

 

Yes Lady G, we are well aware that you love poles.

[cactusflinthead 27602]

 

[Gil Bang 26020]

 

[cactusflinthead 27602]

 

[Caponata 151]

 

[cactusflinthead 27602]

Whoa hey a man changed his opinion?

Why that's unheard of!

[Woland 749]

In case anyone wants to read another view point concerning Putin’s thinking. I’ve subscribed to Russian Life for years… they sent an email out today stating they would be suspending publication out of fear for the safety of their correspondents in Russia.

https://www.russianlife.com/stories/online/why-putin-invaded-ukraine/?goal=0_2e99ba62b2-aff19223f1-191233569&mc_cid=aff19223f1&mc_eid=690e8fa84a

[babysdaddy 2728]

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/10/poland-fighter-jet-deal-ukraine-russia-00016038

[elfenix 34332]

Does Ukraine really have a bunch of trained fighter pilots waiting around without planes? They seem to be doing a pretty good job denying Russia air superiority with whatever air force they've got and the basically infinite stingers we're giving them. 

Typical Russian combat pilots fly 60-100 hours per year per my googling. So maybe 5-10 pilots at any one time might be cycling on each aircraft. Multiply that by the MiG 29 being in service for 40 years and you’ve got a lot of people with experience flying them in comparison to how many are in inventory.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13587]

50 minutes ago, Caponata said:

 

For time frame reference, 1973 is closer to this than is today. 

Also, I'm old. 

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13587]

Add a couple years to that and we all get Physical Graffiti.

[Nivek 16986]

5 hours ago, F250 said:

All of this is irrelevant. If a nation has an underlining ideology that guides their policies then it's important to understand it. It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not.

At this point we are in the Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy nor Roman territory.

 

No one is saying it is not important to understand, but it is more important to pay attention to the actions than the rhetoric or the lofty ideal of some founder that seems to have long been cast aside by successors.    To the earlier point about the transitionary period, this undefined phase, with undefined goals, and an undefined timeline seems a rather, enduring.      

[SaucyJack 3504]

1 hour ago, Caponata said:

 

Have some history, if your too young to remember.

Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

[Nivek 16986]

28 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/10/poland-fighter-jet-deal-ukraine-russia-00016038

Meh, Poland scuttled the deal, the US just shouldered the blame.   Poland could let them have them directly, or tried like heck to get Moldova to allow it as a conduit.  

[F250 28818]

6 minutes ago, Nivek said:

No one is saying it is not important to understand, but it is more important to pay attention to the actions than the rhetoric or the lofty ideal of some founder that seems to have long been cast aside by successors.    To the earlier point about the transitionary period, this undefined phase, with undefined goals, and an undefined timeline seems a rather, enduring.      

So then you agree, communist.

 

[WhatTheBuck 28798]

16 minutes ago, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

Add a couple years to that and we all get Physical Graffiti.

Add nothing and we get Dark Side of the Moon. And Wake of the Flood. And Over-Nite Sensation. And Larks’ Tongues in Aspic...

Oh! And Countdown to Ecstasy!

Edited March 11, 2022 by WhatTheBuck

[gmr548 16616]

This has probably been discussed at some point, but I haven't seen it.  Why couldn't the jets be positioned some place like Austria and have the Ukranian pilots fly them from there?  Austria isn't part of NATO.  Russia isn't going to directly retaliate militarily without going through NATO airspace.  I assume someone has already looked at this and decided it would still be too provocative.  

… how exactly would one fly from Austria to Ukraine without entering NATO airspace?

[Brisketexan 105337]

… how exactly would one fly from Austria to Ukraine without entering NATO airspace?

….inverted….

[Hagbard Celine 10923]

6 hours ago, Eggo said:

Oh don't be such a bitch. If you're going to post wikipedia links with no context as some sort of point, you deserve the dismissive reply you get. 

there's plenty of context in those links

i like you and don't want to go further with this if we can just move on

[berlinerbaer 678]

8 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

The Chinese disposition was always a poor match for communism. They are hyper capitalists at heart. That's just the culture. Hell, my grandmother would haggle with McDonald's worker at the mall to get a 10 cent discount on a hamburger. 

 

[Eggo 3993]

1 hour ago, gmr548 said:

… how exactly would one fly from Austria to Ukraine without entering NATO airspace?

Hyperloop

[Dahobbs 17682]

48 minutes ago, berlinerbaer said:

 

It is sooo true. The Chinese fucking love money. Again, the culture is the antithesis of communism. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Have you ever been to a casino?

[WhatTheBuck 28798]

Stop it with the nonsense that the Chinese aren’t communists.

[WhatTheBuck 28798]

Remember former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovich? She testified at Trump’s first impeachment trial after he tried to extort Ukrainian President Zelensky by threatening to withhold Congressionally authorized military aid unless he announced an investigation into Trump’s political opponent. Remember her? Her testimony was pretty compelling, not that it held any sway with the corrupt GQP.

Well, she’s written a book and gotten a makeover.

This is her now:

[pacman 7371]

 

 

[Junior Miller 1502]

6 hours ago, Woland said:

In case anyone wants to read another view point concerning Putin’s thinking. I’ve subscribed to Russian Life for years… they sent an email out today stating they would be suspending publication out of fear for the safety of their correspondents in Russia.

https://www.russianlife.com/stories/online/why-putin-invaded-ukraine/?goal=0_2e99ba62b2-aff19223f1-191233569&mc_cid=aff19223f1&mc_eid=690e8fa84a

[Caponata 151]

Lol

 

 

 

 

[956 Worldwide 34772]

9 hours ago, Woland said:

In case anyone wants to read another view point concerning Putin’s thinking. I’ve subscribed to Russian Life for years… they sent an email out today stating they would be suspending publication out of fear for the safety of their correspondents in Russia.

https://www.russianlife.com/stories/online/why-putin-invaded-ukraine/?goal=0_2e99ba62b2-aff19223f1-191233569&mc_cid=aff19223f1&mc_eid=690e8fa84a

Quote

For many (we at Russian Life included), the invasion of Ukraine was a sudden and abrupt turn of events. While tensions had been ongoing for years, few, even at the highest levels, foresaw an actual military operation. After all, this is 2022, not 1936. Countries, especially European countries, don't invade each other anymore.

We were shocked and astounded that Russia invaded Ukraine, a country that it had already partially invaded twice in eight years.  Few of us even at the heights of power saw another actual military operation except for the American president who warned us about it for over a month. And also the Secretary of State and the NATO Secretary General. Other than them, who are not at the highest levels, no one saw this coming. 

 

Quote

This 2014 episode was fuelled by a specific set of fears on the part of Russia that are now resurfacing in Putin's February 24 speech and elsewhere; to what extent this is legitimate or mere Russian propaganda is anyone's guess. 

 

Putin’s nationalist ravings and post-hoc justifications— propaganda or real? It’s a mystery, destined to be lost to the sands of time. 
 

Quote

 At the same time, two relatively poor, industrial regions in eastern Ukraine (called "Donbas"), Donetsk and Luhansk, largely populated by people of Russian ethnicity and language, declared independence with Russian support (and probably troops and equipment, too, though we can't be sure). These mini-nations were almost solely recognized by Russia, and skirmishes erupted and continued along the border of these regions and Ukraine.

Were Russian troops and equipment in eastern Ukraine? Another mystery lost to the sands of time, no one know for sure. Just like how no one knows for sure that a Russian missile in that region shot down a civilian airliner. On the one hand we have an extensive and carefully crafted investigation including eyewitnesses, satellite imagery, debris from the crash site,  and communications between the Russian military and separatists. On the other hand, Russia says it wasn’t them.

Skirmeshes erupted. Like a volcano, a true tragedy that no one could have foreseen or stopped. Along the border of Ukraine and these regions, which are also Ukraine, but lets call it a border.

Quote

owever, in 1940s Ukraine, amid food shortages and brutal political repressions, allegiance to the USSR was not a given. Many Ukrainians opted instead to join forces with the Nazi army; the choice between Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia would be a tough one, and some Ukrainians thought that perhaps their odds for survival and flourishing were better with this outside regime rather than the homegrown one. Russia has never forgotten this fact.

Many Ukrainians opted to join forces with the Nazis, and Russia never forgot that. Just like many Russians decided to fight with the Nazis, and Russia did forget that. But they weren’t Ukrainians, so that’s important. Also, the USSR was homegrown in Ukraine, like the wheat from its black soil or Kievan Rus, it is known that the Soviet regime was birthed and nurtured in Ukraine, except for the Ukrainians who fought against it and declared i dependence. But they later became Nazis and therefore, foreign. 

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by 956 Worldwide

[Fastbreak 3992]

Lol
 
 
 
 

Wait…that was fucking real?

[fuggled 576]

8 hours ago, gmr548 said:

… how exactly would one fly from Austria to Ukraine without entering NATO airspace?

I never claimed you would. Is that a requirement? Have we drawn a redline on any Ukrainian soldier, pilot or equipment passing through NATO countries? The concern I've heard around jets is having NATO pilots flying in Ukraine or using NATO facilities/bases to stage and launch from.  An Austrian model avoids those aspects.

[fuggled 576]

8 hours ago, gmr548 said:

… how exactly would one fly from Austria to Ukraine without entering NATO airspace?

Rereading my post, it may not have been clear.  What I meant was, if Russia wanted to retaliate against Austria they would have to go through NATO airspace and that's not something they're going to do.

[956 Worldwide 34772]

Austria is officially neutral and wouldn’t do it so it’s not even worth discussing.

[DigglerontheHoof 21245]

We are lucky AF that Donny isn't potus right now. 

[Pescado_Rojo 19428]

46 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

We are lucky AF that Donny isn't potus right now. 

Putin would be shaking hands with his puppet president in Kyiv right now if Donny was potus. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

55 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

We are lucky AF that Donny isn't potus right now. 

 

8 minutes ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

Putin would be shaking hands with his puppet president in Kyiv right now if Donny was potus. 

Before he was banned, Trump had tweets mentioning Ukraine. Obviously I cannot embed them as his account is for all practical purposes not accessible. However, through the archive, here is a choice tweet or two from some years back:

AUGUST 1, 2016: "When I said in an interview that Putin is "not going into Ukraine, you can mark it down," I am saying if I am President. Already in Crimea!

JUNE 20, 2017: It was a great honor to welcome President Petro Poroshenko of Ukraine to the @WhiteHouse today with @VP Pence

 

[cactusflinthead 27602]

3 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

We were shocked and astounded that Russia invaded Ukraine, a country that it had already partially invaded twice in eight years.  Few of us even at the heights of power saw another actual military operation except for the American president who warned us about it for over a month. And also the Secretary of State and the NATO Secretary General. Other than them, who are not at the highest levels, no one saw this coming. 

 

 

Putin’s nationalist ravings and post-hoc justifications— propaganda or real? It’s a mystery, destined to be lost to the sands of time. 
 

Were Russian troops and equipment in eastern Ukraine? Another mystery lost to the sands of time, no one know for sure. Just like how no one knows for sure that a Russian missile in that region shot down a civilian airliner. On the one hand we have an extensive and carefully crafted investigation including eyewitnesses, satellite imagery, debris from the crash site,  and communications between the Russian military and separatists. On the other hand, Russia says it wasn’t them.

Skirmeshes erupted. Like a volcano, a true tragedy that no one could have foreseen or stopped. Along the border of Ukraine and these regions, which are also Ukraine, but lets call it a border.

Many Ukrainians opted to join forces with the Nazis, and Russia never forgot that. Just like many Russians decided to fight with the Nazis, and Russia did forget that. But they weren’t Ukrainians, so that’s important. Also, the USSR was homegrown in Ukraine, like the wheat from its black soil or Kievan Rus, it is known that the Soviet regime was birthed and nurtured in Ukraine, except for the Ukrainians who fought against it and declared i dependence. But they later became Nazis and therefore, foreign. 

 

250,000 fought for the Nazis. 4.5 million for the Soviets. 

 

[Anastasis 23485]

12 hours ago, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

For time frame reference, 1973 is closer to this than is today. 

Also, I'm old. 

The time increment involved is also similar to that between the overthrow of Mohammad Mosaddegh and the Iranian revolution. 

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Anastasis

[The Royal We 3072]

1 hour ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

Putin would be shaking hands with his puppet president in Kyiv right now if Donny was potus. 

So much this.  I don't understand how Trumpaloos can say with a straight face "This never would have happened if TFG were still president." 

I mean, I can, because brain worms, but it takes an extraordinary amount of mental gymnastics/cognitive dissonance to be of the opinion that Putin would have been so afraid of Dotard that he never would have thought to invade Ukraine again.

Do you even Helsinki bro?

[horn4life 3783]

2 hours ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

Putin would be shaking hands with his puppet president in Kyiv right now if Donny was potus. 

And Trump would be flying over, to meet with the Puppet.  Lots of cheap available real estate in Novorossiya, to gild.

Edited March 11, 2022 by horn4life

[WhatTheBuck 28798]

33 minutes ago, The Royal We said:

So much this.  I don't understand how Trumpaloos can say with a straight face "This never would have happened if TFG were still president." 

I mean, I can, because brain worms, but it takes an extraordinary amount of mental gymnastics/cognitive dissonance to be of the opinion that Putin would have been so afraid of Dotard that he never would have thought to invade Ukraine again.

Do you even Helsinki bro?

All it takes is the ability to copy and paste. Thinking takes effort. They don’t do that. 

[HenryJames 66171]

 

[RomaVicta 30018]

17 hours ago, cactusflinthead said:

Rot in hell Putin

Total war terrorism. I don't know that Putin can find a way to conduct this war in an any worse manner.

Bomb civilians or children's hospitals anywhere and you don't make them want to capitulate. You make them furious with rage. They don't want to wave a white flag. They want revenge.

It's a mistake we make over and over because we think every war is WWII where our boys will be cheered as liberators. We have a hard time with the simple lesson that people don't much like invaders of any kind. 

The number of Ukraine patriots willing to seriously risk their lives to launch a missile or shoot a soldier has just gone up. 

I don't think Putin is insane. I think he just keeps compounding the bad decision to invade Ukraine with increasingly horrific decisions. He's completely undone whatever he'd achieved in making NATO less stable and the democracies of the world less resolved.

 

[Degenerate Gardner 4085]

1 hour ago, The Royal We said:

So much this.  I don't understand how Trumpaloos can say with a straight face "This never would have happened if TFG were still president." 

I mean, I can, because brain worms, but it takes an extraordinary amount of mental gymnastics/cognitive dissonance to be of the opinion that Putin would have been so afraid of Dotard that he never would have thought to invade Ukraine again.

Do you even Helsinki bro?

To be capable of cognitive dissonance, one first must practice cognition.

[jimmyjazz 46131]

One can suffer from a variety of mental disorders without being "insane".  The term is largely a matter of law.

More than any other diagnoses from afar, it seems most psychologists and psychiatrists I've seen discussing Donald Trump land on narcissistic personality disorder.  Putin could be in a similar boat.  It doesn't mean that, by definition, he can't distinguish reality from fantasy.  Most likely, he simply doesn't care.  He certainly doesn't seem to possess any high-level concern for the lives of others.

[brakeman 28423]

RIP.

[hookemATL 11893]

Good God y’all, what is it good for?

Edited March 11, 2022 by hookemATL

[RomaVicta 30018]

2 minutes ago, hookemATL said:

Good God y’all, what is it good for?

I believe that was part of Tolstoy's original title for War and Peace. 

[Macanudo 13012]

21 minutes ago, hookemATL said:

Good God y’all, what is it good for?

Absolutely nothing.   Say it again, ya'll.