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Posted
  On 3/19/2022 at 3:29 PM, Nivek said:

How is this different from any other tyrannical leader?  

Drawing parallels is fine when it is appropriate.  It is not here.  Hitler and Putin are not alike in their motivations or actions.  I mean both were Surly manlets and wore pants so I guess a lot of you need to be watched.    Putin is purging people who question his motives and their dedication to his cause for subjugating Ukraine.  Once again, this is not a mass murder campaign where people were literally rounded up, had everything stolen from them (including the gold from their teeth) and put in gas chambers and then cremated in mass.    This argument is sophomoric at best.     

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I’d say the argument that you can’t compare anyone to Hitler unless they’re killing masses of people in gas chambers and incinerating them is sophomoric at best. Hitler and Putin are very much alike in their motivations and actions. How is Putin’s annexation of the Donbas different than Hitler’s annexation of the Sudetenland? How is their propagandizing different? Putin doesn’t have the superiority of arms to wage blitzkrieg on Ukraine like Hitler had to take over much of Europe, but he thought he did and he tried. Mark Twain said: “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it often rhymes.” Just because all fascists aren’t alike doesn’t mean one can’t be compared to another. 

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Posted
  On 3/19/2022 at 4:06 PM, WhatTheBuck said:

Both sides.

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the Iran-Contra, a minor data blip, gets a lot of media hype but the US-Iraq military assistance was much more solid even to the extent of destroying and killing Iranian navy targets. Iraq even accidentally blasted a missile at a US navy ship, killing 35 sailors, but was forgiven.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran–Iraq_War#:~:text=Security Council in 2002%2C almost,LA Weekly in May 2003.

I hadn't seen this pic before until reading the wiki. Tariq Aziz was a POW and died in an Iraqi prison. 

1024px-President_Ronald_Reagan_and_Tariq 

 

neverthless, the point was that Ukraine isn't the killing zone of other conflicts in the last 75-100 years, not even close really. 

Posted
  On 3/19/2022 at 4:01 PM, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

this Ukraine war doesn't come close to the mass murder of 10% of the 1980s Afghan population by the 10 year Soviet invasion, far worse than Ukraine will ever get.  Saddam's war with Iran was much worse (for both sides) - guess who we supported.  Nothing will resemble WW2 / Holocaust but a few in the last 100 years are in the ballpark -- Armenia, Rwanda, Cambodia.  Ukraine isn't as bad as the ones mentioned; refugees in the others didn't have the luxury of internet or nice trains to depart the country with food, clothing and shelter readily available within hours. The USSR planted tens of thousands of landmines in Afghanistan to blow up and maim families as they walked across the desert for days, pure hell for a people who already lived in a brutal landscape.  Forgot to mention Syria which is a ghoulish indescribable madness. So no, Ukraine is luxury compared to other situations. 

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I don’t understand this take at all.  I mean, as of five days ago 2,500 people are dead in three weeks in Mariupol alone. That is a fucking World War II style horror show, like “early siege of Leningrad before the food ran out” bad. And it might yet get to “running out of food” bad.  Comparing it to ten year conflicts is absurd. 
 

This is the biggest refugee wave in Europe since World War II. I was in one of the welcome centers in SE Poland, which is amazing and Ukrainians are deeply grateful.  There’s no luxury there, there are a lot of people with dead relatives and grocery sacks full of their belongings. Having a SIM card is nice though bro. 

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Posted

I think our obsession with equating every opponent with Hitler and nattering on about relative evil is detrimental to evaluating our involvement in an armed conflict. Now reflected in our super-hero comic book movie culture, we're obsessed with making every conflict a battle between good and evil to save the world. 

Just stop.

Putin's rating on the Hitler scale is irrelevant to discussion about American policy. We don't fight our wars since Hitler for the same reasons we fought Hitler. Our leaders just use that model (with the dull minded press usually tagging along) to drum up support for whatever hidden reason (useful or not) they have for wanting to "send our boys in to kill the bad guys."

Guess what? We were the bad guys in Vietnam. To most of Iraq, we were the bad guys in Iraq. Same in Afghanistan. Does anyone who has read a paragraph of history think we invaded Grenada to save third rate medical students? Did Nicaragua love the Contras? Was Chile glad we orchstrated the removal and murder of Allende? 

Hey man, who even knows about that shit anymore?

Exactly. Tally-ho, after the wicked fox!

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Posted
  On 3/19/2022 at 4:33 PM, 956 Worldwide said:

I don’t understand this take at all.  I mean, as of five days ago 2,500 people are dead in three weeks in Mariupol alone. That is a fucking World War II style horror show, like “early siege of Leningrad before the food ran out” bad. And it might yet get to “running out of food” bad.  Comparing it to ten year conflicts is absurd
 

This is the biggest refugee wave in Europe since World War II. I was in one of the welcome centers in SE Poland, which is amazing and Ukrainians are deeply grateful.  There’s no luxury there, there are a lot of people with dead relatives and grocery sacks full of their belongings. Having a SIM card is nice though bro. 

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well that's a comparison to a 6 year horror show. 

Ukraine isn't as bad as the other wars lists, Syria by itself is much more of a horror show with 500,000 killed - ISIS, Al Qaeda, the murderous Assad army, Israel, Hezbollah and more.  Snipers shoot little boys in the spine just for fun.  Fanatics behead just for entertainment. It's panic time every day over there without the goodie packages from American housemoms. 

Posted
  On 3/19/2022 at 1:05 PM, MaybeACoordinator said:

He is not Hitler if only because he is incapable of being Hitler. He doesn't have the resources -- human or natural -- to fight against NATO. To me, nationalistic fervor within Russia is immaterial if they don't have the clout to match. He does not have superior tanks or airplanes. He has not developed a new set of tactics on the order of the blitzkrieg. In fact, he is basically still using cumbersome blitzkrieg tactics now, and is paying the consequences. With NATO air support, their levels of attrition would approach that of the Krauts at Stalingrad or the Iraqis on the highway of death. (This argument that Ukraine is just a speed bump to empire reminds me more and more of how Saddam was allegedly going to blaze through Kuwait and take down Saudi.)

I did not mean to imply he has the lost the war. It does seem to me like a Pyrrhic victory, in that they have been exposed as a paper tiger. He will win this fight but the underdog caught him under the chin and put him on the canvas for a three-count. 

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hitler with hitler's resources and in-game position: no

hitler without the resources and a totally different in-game position: yes

saddam with nukes..... sort of, but totally with you on the speed bump to empire.   make vlad bash his head against the uke brick wall for as long as possible.  starve his economy and people.  an asymmetric siege of attrition like this situation has never happened before.  this is 100x more severe than the federal blockade of the south in the civil war or the battle of the atlantic in ww2, the only 2 similar circumstances in world history that come to mind.

his only cards in reserve are chem or nukes, so there is no reason (other than the humanitarian disaster) to do anything different for at least 60 days and re-assess.

Posted (edited)
  On 3/19/2022 at 4:04 PM, WhatTheBuck said:

I’d say the argument that you can’t compare anyone to Hitler unless they’re killing masses of people in gas chambers and incinerating them is sophomoric at best. Hitler and Putin are very much alike in their motivations and actions. How is Putin’s annexation of the Donbas different than Hitler’s annexation of the Sudetenland? How is their propagandizing different? Putin doesn’t have the superiority of arms to wage blitzkrieg on Ukraine like Hitler had to take over much of Europe, but he thought he did and he tried. Mark Twain said: “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it often rhymes.” Just because all fascists aren’t alike doesn’t mean one can’t be compared to another. 

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You can say that but you would be wrong.   The idea of making a comparison is to find things in which are alike in specific manners and not in some coarse generalized methodology.   As I stated above all mass murderers in recent years have worn pants.   So I suppose anyone that wears pants is a potential mass murderer?  Well that is absurd if you are honest (and I think you are).   The idea that a Hitler is one who uses the machinations of government to do his bidding, is true for everyone in government.  So by that standard, George Washington and Hitler are the same.    So such criteria is simply foolish, you are not a fool but you are a bit stubborn and do not like to be challenged and shown wrong.   

Going into specifics which shows some similarities doesn't necessarily work as well.  Alexander expanded the Macedonian state through conquest and Hitler expanded his state through conquest.  So does this criteria mean they are the same?    No?  Well then this criteria fails as well.   Shit, countries use propaganda?  I suppose then the Kims of North Korea are the same as the United States in the 1940s.  I mean watch some old ww2 Bugs Bunny cartoons and you will see propaganda aimed at kids in there as well.  

Let me offer you a good comparison instead.  If you wanted to compare grossular vs. pyrope then this would be something worth discussing because they are similar in form and structure, and represent endmember garnets.  They share so many similarities they are considered part of the garnet group.   What you are doing is saying that because they are aluminum-silicates they are comparable to Kyanite which is an aluminum-silicate, but not recognized to be in the same category and exists on its own phase diagrams and has a different chemical formula.   If you wanted to group Kyanite to Sillimanite, then you would be correct as they are part of the AL2SiO5 polymorphs, but unrelated to the Mg3Al2(SiO4)3 Pyrope (garnets).   Well I suppose they are both shiny.  

If you wanted to suggest that Hitler and Putin both have police-states  and both are brutal in oppressing their own people and others, well this is accurate.  One was more competent in supporting and building up the military machine than the other, both have goals for conquest but Hitler's is far grander, and it was obvious by the debt financed restoration of the military whereas Putin is more of a kleptocrat who is more interested in his own power.   Hitler wanted to eradicate all Jewish and Roma populations from Europe.  He worked to this end and succeeded in mass murder.  Putin is interested in restoring the Soviet Union's influence, but he is not willing to actually make the financial sacrifices to do such.  He is far too fucking lazy to do this.  He got a lesson in 2017 about how inferior his forces were to the United States.    He had plenty of time invest in the Russian armed forces, ramp up production of newer equipment, sell off the the shit and get his troops in order through professionalism.   He is simply not interested in putting in the effort and money, but rather surrounding himself with buddies and wearing 11,000 euro italian jackets.   Hitler getting a mercedes was a minor controversy in Germany.     Also the interwar period between WW1 and WW2 was dedicated to learning and analyzing WW1 and developing new decentralized tactics, where they conducted realistic maneuvers to test their new doctrine which was happening before Hitler took power.   Hitler's invasion of Austria was a learning point and the German military recognized there were failures up and down and so they adapted to this before they went into Czech.  Throughout the whole process they kept analyzing their actions adapting their strategies and becoming more effective.     Now look at Putin's military, they are using substandard equipment, sending in people whom have little knowledge, using old tactics, failures a logistics, and according to one youtuber ex-infantry guy, they appear to be following old soviet doctrine.  

TLDR: So this is a lot of words to basically say that it is a shit comparison.  

 

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Edited by Nivek
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Posted

Putin's Folly  ... excellent article from The Economist

 

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Posted
  On 3/19/2022 at 9:02 PM, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:


Holy shit. HOLY MUTHERFUCKING SHIT.   The size of the cojones on those guys is unreal, knowing what may happen to them when they land and also what may happen to their families while they're in orbit. 

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I was thinking about that, too.  I'd hope that they're too big of a deal for Putin to mess with, but who am I kidding.  Maybe they don't come back down for another year and they figure he'll be gone by then.

Posted
  On 3/19/2022 at 9:18 PM, Bullneck said:

I was thinking about that, too.  I'd hope that they're too big of a deal for Putin to mess with, but who am I kidding.  Maybe they don't come back down for another year and they figure he'll be gone by then.

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I just read that these are the colors of Moscow State Technical University and that all three cosmonauts graduated from there and that they all have a MSTU patch on their jumpsuits, that the suits were made months ago etc...  Meaning it's just a coincidence.

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Posted
  On 3/19/2022 at 4:40 PM, RomaVicta said:

I think our obsession with equating every opponent with Hitler and nattering on about relative evil is detrimental to evaluating our involvement in an armed conflict. Now reflected in our super-hero comic book movie culture, we're obsessed with making every conflict a battle between good and evil to save the world. 

Just stop.

Putin's rating on the Hitler scale is irrelevant to discussion about American policy. We don't fight our wars since Hitler for the same reasons we fought Hitler. Our leaders just use that model (with the dull minded press usually tagging along) to drum up support for whatever hidden reason (useful or not) they have for wanting to "send our boys in to kill the bad guys."

Guess what? We were the bad guys in Vietnam. To most of Iraq, we were the bad guys in Iraq. Same in Afghanistan. Does anyone who has read a paragraph of history think we invaded Grenada to save third rate medical students? Did Nicaragua love the Contras? Was Chile glad we orchstrated the removal and murder of Allende? 

Hey man, who even knows about that shit anymore?

Exactly. Tally-ho, after the wicked fox!

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That’s one of the nice things about this conflict between Russia and the Ukraine.  It’s pretty fucking crystal clear who the asshole is.

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Posted (edited)
  On 3/19/2022 at 9:02 PM, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:


Holy shit. HOLY MUTHERFUCKING SHIT.   The size of the cojones on those guys is unreal, knowing what may happen to them when they land and also what may happen to their families while they're in orbit. 

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Calculated move.  Basically, they're taking the risk that Pooty will get iced or exiled before any of them set foot on Earth again.  Families are probably safe, otherwise I seriously doubt they would have done that.

Edited by SizzleChest
Posted

    What makes this war different is the lack of a DP by the Nazis and Soviets to start things off and our(the west) quick aid.  If not for the West throwing in immediately with lethal aid Russia is planning their next invasion. It's too early to say "Putin doesn't have the military" when he is sitting on nukes. The rhetoric and propaganda is the same.

Posted
  On 3/19/2022 at 8:52 PM, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:
Putin's Folly  ... excellent article from The…
 


Related, I think dictators miss the crucial role the free press has in Quality Assurance. Remember how the Bradley fighting vehicle? Generals and defense contractors can cover that up. But one fucking journalism major can expose the flaws and improve the military. Despots might hate that, but the alternative is the tragic joke that is the Russian military with their 20 year old MREs.
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Posted
  On 3/19/2022 at 9:31 PM, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:


 

 

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Was FDR Hitler for moving Japanese Americans into concentration camps?

Your form of argument would seem to argue so. My position does not. Neither FDR or Putin are Hitler. Nor is Putin FDR. 

It's like arguing about how many Todesengels can dance on the head of a pin. Further, a nation sometimes puts up with evil or even supports it in what it perceives to be its own interests. We're a nation that does that. Sometimes it's the best if not right thing to do.

It's not a schoolyard out there.

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Posted
  On 3/19/2022 at 9:22 PM, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:


I just read that these are the colors of Moscow State Technical University and that all three cosmonauts graduated from there and that they all have a MSTU patch on their jumpsuits, that the suits were made months ago etc...  Meaning it's just a coincidence.

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Their mascot is potato. Go Potato!

Posted
  On 3/19/2022 at 6:45 PM, Nivek said:

The idea of making a comparison is to find things in which are alike in specific manners and not in some coarse generalized methodology. 

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Or you could just spew the most basic and disingenuous nonsense about 1960s Cuba as analogy and call it a day.   

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Posted
  On 3/19/2022 at 10:36 PM, Neonmoon said:
I think I’ve seen this movie before 

A long time ago we took in for a few weeks an exchange student from Uzbekistan. She had Asian features but also had blue eyes and freckles. Her great-grandfather had been a Polish officer who was captured and he and his family were sent to Uzbekistan. The officer and his wife died leaving a young daughter who was sold to be a wife for a wealthy Uzbek. The daughter was the exchange student’s grandmother.
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Posted (edited)
  On 3/20/2022 at 2:11 AM, Woland said:


A long time ago we took in for a few weeks an exchange student from Uzbekistan. She had Asian features but also had blue eyes and freckles. Her great-grandfather had been a Polish officer who was captured and he and his family were sent to Uzbekistan. The officer and his wife died leaving a young daughter who was sold to be a wife for a wealthy Uzbek. The daughter was the exchange student’s grandmother.

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math-lady.gif

Edited by Biff Tannen
Albert Einstein?
Posted
  On 3/19/2022 at 8:52 PM, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

Putin's Folly  ... excellent article from The Economist

 

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fantastic

60 daya

Posted
  On 3/20/2022 at 2:11 AM, Woland said:


A long time ago we took in for a few weeks an exchange student from Uzbekistan. She had Asian features but also had blue eyes and freckles. Her great-grandfather had been a Polish officer who was captured and he and his family were sent to Uzbekistan. The officer and his wife died leaving a young daughter who was sold to be a wife for a wealthy Uzbek. The daughter was the exchange student’s grandmother.

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pics?

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Posted

One wonders why -- even as the Russian siege starves the half-million residents of Mariupol -- these food companies carry on business as normal in Russia:

@kfc
@pizzahut
@PapaJohns
@tacobell
@SUBWAY
@GeneralMills
@Cinnabon
@dunkindonuts
@KraftHeinzCo
@KelloggCompany

Do not support these American companies!

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Posted
  On 3/20/2022 at 4:07 AM, Anastasis said:
If it takes the invasion of Ukraine for you to reconsider patronage of kfc and taco bell you are already lost. 

But jack in the box tacos are still ok, right?
Because America, freedom, and alcohol-fueled bad decisions.
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Posted
  On 3/20/2022 at 12:59 AM, RomaVicta said:

Was FDR Hitler for moving Japanese Americans into concentration camps?

Your form of argument would seem to argue so. My position does not. Neither FDR or Putin are Hitler. Nor is Putin FDR. 

It's like arguing about how many Todesengels can dance on the head of a pin. Further, a nation sometimes puts up with evil or even supports it in what it perceives to be its own interests. We're a nation that does that. Sometimes it's the best if not right thing to do.

It's not a schoolyard out there.

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Are you equating  Putin with FDR?

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Posted
  On 3/20/2022 at 4:07 AM, Anastasis said:

If it takes the invasion of Ukraine for you to reconsider patronage of kfc and taco bell you are already lost. 

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That KFC chicken sandwich is pretty legit, though. And you'll have to pry my Heinz ketchup from my cold, dead fingers.

Posted
  On 3/20/2022 at 2:11 AM, Woland said:


A long time ago we took in for a few weeks an exchange student from Uzbekistan. She had Asian features but also had blue eyes and freckles. Her great-grandfather had been a Polish officer who was captured and he and his family were sent to Uzbekistan. The officer and his wife died leaving a young daughter who was sold to be a wife for a wealthy Uzbek. The daughter was the exchange student’s grandmother.

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   That's exactly what my wife looks like. Asian features with blue eyes.

Posted
  On 3/20/2022 at 5:58 AM, Dutchrudder said:

"NO PUPPET! NO PUPPET! YOURE THE PUPPET!!!". Will forever be the greatest line delivered in a Presidential Debate. I still chuckle to myself when I think of it. 

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Listen to Hillary's points. She was dead on.  Too bad people didn't listen or were incapable of actual thinking.

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Posted
  On 3/20/2022 at 7:58 AM, C-Man said:

That KFC chicken sandwich is pretty legit, though. And you'll have to pry my Heinz ketchup from my cold, dead fingers.

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Fortunately the Chicago overlords have not yet put a Whataburger in Moscow, so we’re rolling. 

Posted
  On 3/20/2022 at 5:13 AM, Fastbreak said:

Amazing how Fox is now just a Russian mouthpiece. I really wonder if these people can really sleep at night.

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They can.  Horrible people don't feel guilt about being paid massive sums of money to do horrible things.

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Posted
  On 3/20/2022 at 5:13 AM, Fastbreak said:

Amazing how Fox is now just a Russian mouthpiece. I really wonder if these people can really sleep at night.

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Bold Response: Um, they have been for a while dude.  

Italics Response: I hear cash stuffed pillows and duvets are rather insulating.  

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