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cactusflinthead

cactusflinthead 27601

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21 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

In the interest of humanity and peace on earth, please watch:

 

 

Nope. Not after seeing three people dead that were dead from the fact of cooking in the front of the apartment. Not after reading about the woman adopting the kid off the street sitting by his dead parents. I find it difficult to gin up much sympathy after that.

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So our brain dead, demented president has managed to, without firing 1 shot, or risking 1 American life, and with the extremely limited tools at his disposal to respond to a mad man hell bent on irrat

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Judge Roybeanbag

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28 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

In the interest of humanity and peace on earth, please watch:

 

 

They are being snookered, while people just like them are being slaughtered for no reason.  Ukraine didn’t attack Russia.  They didn’t fly planes into buildings.  They didn’t threaten them.  What’s your point?  You’ve posted a hundred times and still can’t seem to illustrate what your point is, in justifying what is happening.  

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MaybeACoordinator

MaybeACoordinator 8349

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3 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

They are being snookered, while people just like them are being slaughtered for no reason.  Ukraine didn’t attack Russia.  They didn’t fly planes into buildings.  They didn’t threaten them.  What’s your point?  You’ve posted a hundred times and still can’t seem to illustrate what your point is, in justifying what is happening.  

Not all of them think in lockstep. Point one. Point two: to humanize the "Orcs." I fear we are spiraling out into a horrific world war over stupid shit just as in World War !. 

 

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bolverk

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7 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

If you are not even interested in seeing what Russians are saying -- including some dissent -- you brains are fried. You are afflicted with war fever. And where was your outrage over dead Iraqi children? 

I watched the entire thing. The red head was cute. The older lady who said she worked in the US has her head in the sand, but the guy at the end had the most thorough and well-thought out analysis that the Russian government is likely fucked.

I was 100% opposed to the war on Iraq, protested it, and lamented the loss of children's lives.

Edit: Wtf with that one kid in a black jacket saying that China was a fellow theocratic nation?!? Dude, like you, I've also lived in another country and understand that Russians are people who love their children too. They're no different than us -- just humans with a different and differing perspectives, and some are more susceptible to propaganda than others. Clearly, there were a couple who weren't comfortable expressing their opinions and preferred to remain "neutral" on the subject. At the same time, we have to understand that we're ultimately responsible for the government we have and will have to answer for our collective sins. Many of the interviewees appear to agree that their government unjustly invaded a sovereign country and is killing their own "brothers" in Ukraine.

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cactusflinthead

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Just now, MaybeACoordinator said:

If you are not even interested in seeing what Russians are saying -- including some dissent -- you brains are fried. You are afflicted with war fever. And where was your outrage over dead Iraqi children? 

Same as I feel now about Syrian kids, Burmese, and Yemeni. This isn't on the Russian people. I can go get the IG pages of plenty of the children of Russians that might lose their posh London flat because they stole from those same poor Russians.

This isn't Iraq though. This isn't a banana republic. This isn't Cambodia.

War is hell. No one is disputing that. I take no pleasure from the death of conscripts sent to be killed. Laughing my ass off at paratroopers getting a fist in the mouth though. And every vehicle hauled off by a tractor.

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F250

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1 minute ago, bolverk said:

I was 100% opposed to the war on Iraq, protested it, and lamented the loss of children's lives.

As was I. Blaming all Russians for the acts of the Russian government and having no empathy for the regular citizens without any influence isn't much different than the jihadists that gave zero fucks about bringing terror to everyday American citizens.

 

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MaybeACoordinator

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One last post before I bow out. (You're welcome.)

I had the rare privelige of taken a year of classes taught by Dr Harry Walsh at UH. A native of Fort Worth, Walsh was an artilleryman in the US army before attending grad school and going into army intelligence. At the height of the Cold War, he went to grad school at the University of Leningrad and spoke fluent Russian and taught it at UH. He'd casually let little clues slip that he knew the floor plan of the Pentagon -- he rolled his eyes at the endless corridors -- and let slip other hints that in all likelihood he'd been CIA. 

I took Russian lit in English for two consecutive semesters. One class was solely on Tolstoy, and the second was an appallng class that began with Chekhov and wound its way through nightmarish Soviet novels like Cement (think 1984, only with the narrator approving of the action) to Solzhenytsin. He recognized that they were capable of great evil.

He had a complicated view on Russia. He genuinely loved the literature of the 19th Century and early 20th. And he also loved the Russian people. But one thing he impressed on all of us was that Russia was paranoid of land invasions and  Ukraine was a third rail Given their history of devastation from the west coming once a century since the 1810s,  he did not seem to think this was unreasonable. 

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Brisketexan

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In the interest of humanity and peace on earth, please watch:
 
 

I watched it. You know what every one of those people could do? Talk….because they hadn’t had their fucking face blown off by a Russian rocket falling on their home. You can’t do the same interview on the street in Mariupol. Because those rockets are still landing, right now. Fired by the country in your man on the street video.
War is hell. It fucking sucks. The people of every country involved suffer. But one side has to win, one side has to lose. I generally avoid pulling for the aggressor nation, and I generally avoid suggesting that the invaded country just roll over and allow itself to be destroyed or enslaved.
There’s one country that can stop this cold: the one that stated it. Until it does, not only will its sons come home in charred pieces, I will hope that their numbers increase. That is the economics of war, it is a measure that matters.
It’s horrific. It’s inhuman - check that, it’s entirely human. But it’s still awful. I wish it didn’t happen. But know it’s happening, so this is how it will go.
Go do that oh-so-human interview in Mariupol, right now. If you somehow got there, tell those people you think they should surrender and agree to be ruled by the power that is currently slaughtering them. See how you are received.
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bolverk

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5 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

He had a complicated view on Russia. He genuinely loved the literature of the 19th Century and early 20th. And he also loved the Russian people. But one thing he impressed on all of us was that Russia was paranoid of land invasions and  Ukraine was a third rail Given their history of devastation from the west coming once a century since the 1810s,  he did not seem to think this was unreasonable. 

You know who else is probably paranoid of land invasions given their history of devastation from the east? Ukraine, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland.

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Brisketexan

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In the interest of humanity and peace on earth, please watch:
 
 

Also, the more I think about this post, the more it pisses me off.

Humanity? You know what’s human? Defiance. Fighting for your home, your family, your neighbors. More defiance. Refusing to surrender to a fucking bully. Fucking dying on your feet instead of living on your knees. Those things are human AS FUCK. So, yeah, let’s fucking stand up for humanity. Let’s act “in the interest of humanity.” That means supporting the people who are ready to bleed and die to save their homeland. It means supporting the people fighting off a craven invader, a country that has spent hundreds of years trying to erase them as a people and culture.
Humanity. Fuck yeah. Let’s act in its interest. I see that way fucking differently than you do, and I’m good with that.
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bolverk

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This is about as simplistic as it can get but, as an image, it's pretty effective imagery (It's one I proudly wore on a t-shirt in my more in-your-face progressive days to support collective bargaining and labor unions).

@MaybeACoordinator has espoused the notion of Realpolitik to seemingly support a view that, as a great power, Russia should indeed be granted its own sphere of influence and be damned the desires of smaller neighboring nations for self-determination, including Ukraine.

What this image proposes is "What if a bunch of smaller countries band together to ward off aggression from the bigger fish and create stronger ties among themselves for a greater purpose?" While that's not entirely congruent with the original goals of the EU or NATO, it serves well enough for this example. And it certainly applies to Ukrainians' desire to freely associate themselves with the EU, which is what started this whole mess in the first place.

For the past decade, the people of Ukraine have recognized they're a small fry and don't want to get gobbled up by Putin's desire to reformulate some glorious past empire. Instead, they'd rather choose to voluntarily associate themselves with a collective to do something bigger.

organize-concept-20513599.jpg

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Dnaguy

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5 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

In the interest of humanity and peace on earth, please watch:

 

 

Woman at 8:56 comes in hot with the most bleak Russian assessment to ever Russki. 

Damn.

But maybe even sadder:

im horny donald glover GIF
 

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Thatguy

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         While I don't agree with the war on Iraq, I do at least understand it. You had a country that DID leave their borders and invade their neighbors. Little Bush wanted to finish his daddy's war, and the country needed a show of power for what happens when you F with the USA. They damn sure weren't going to attack Saudis, and Iraq has the 5th largest oil reserves. Plus the dictator in charge was a real piece of shit who deserved to be 86'd. We were coming for somebody. The stars just happened to align for them. A sad day for sure, but America was responding no matter what. Somebody brown was getting it.

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Thatguy

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Not all of them think in lockstep. Point one. Point two: to humanize the "Orcs." I fear we are spiraling out into a horrific world war over stupid shit just as in World War !. 

 

   Look its pretty simple. Do you have kids? Dictators are like children. My 13 year old daughter wore something she shouldn't have to school. Momma dropped her off and didn't say anything as she was tired of fighting about it. When I picked her up I got mad and her excuse was it was ok with momma. If you do not agree but say nothing that means you agree. Simple as that. This man wants to reconstruct the USSR. He took Crimea, and like a toddler, looked around to see the response. When no one responded he kept pushing. No one still and here we are.

    You keep saying Putin can't do what Hitler did but you have to understand the difference. Hitler flew through countries in weeks. Russia doesn't fight like that. We sit here and make fun of them for their ineptitude but the Ukrainians have it right when they call them Orcs. Orcs may be stupid but they keep coming and coming until they overwhelm you with numbers.

 

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Thatguy

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2 hours ago, Caponata said:

They've already been dehumanized. They don't care. 

 

2 hours ago, Dnaguy said:

Woman at 8:56 comes in hot with the most bleak Russian assessment to ever Russki. 

Damn.

But maybe even sadder:


 

   Anyone over 40 is going to shrug their shoulders at that shit. Imagine what they've been through and where this is on the meter for them.  Look at the olds in that video. Barely even a facial expression change. My wife's friend Masha is like that. When she delivers bad news its like it didn't even happen to her. Tough SOBs.

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Shaddie

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MAC’s argument is “we remember being invaded thus we should be able to do what we want”. 
NOBODY is ever going to invade Russia. They have nukes. 
This excuse is because Putin wants to go down as the greatest Russian leader of all time. He also does not want democracy at his door because he knows it will eventually bleed over. 
By your argument we should have remained isolationist forever. 
 

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hpslugga

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1 hour ago, cactusflinthead said:

I think they call this projection. Considering 300 years of trying to kill off Ukrainian identity it's laughable.

 

To be fair, he wouldn’t have said it if he didn’t know he could reliably count on the idea that there’d be people that would easily fall for it. 

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MaybeACoordinator

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9 hours ago, Brisketexan said:


Also, the more I think about this post, the more it pisses me off.

Humanity? You know what’s human? Defiance. Fighting for your home, your family, your neighbors. More defiance. Refusing to surrender to a fucking bully. Fucking dying on your feet instead of living on your knees. Those things are human AS FUCK. So, yeah, let’s fucking stand up for humanity. Let’s act “in the interest of humanity.” That means supporting the people who are ready to bleed and die to save their homeland. It means supporting the people fighting off a craven invader, a country that has spent hundreds of years trying to erase them as a people and culture.
Humanity. Fuck yeah. Let’s act in its interest. I see that way fucking differently than you do, and I’m good with that.

You've got a kid in Germany. Mine is in ready reserve. Your kid can fly home at will. Uncle Sam can call my kid up at will. We have different stakes in this game and it shows.

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Gonna do a long cat post on Russia and empathy for Russia and Russians.  Up front: I love Russia. I have loved ones in Russia and will for the foreseeable future.  Russia was the first foreign country I lived in for any extended period. My Russian has degraded, but I used to read the Russian pantheon in the original.  My exposure to Russian spiritual writing led me to Orthodox Christianity. My bookshelf is full of known and not so known Russian writers, my walls with Russian icons. In art, music, literature, science, and culture Russia stands with Greece, Italy, and England in what it’s given the world.  No exaggeration.

I have to think that what I’ve felt as I’ve watched what Russia has turned into since the poor but hopeful days of the 1990s and early 2000s must be comparable to what people who genuinely loved Germany or Japan felt in the 1930s.  It is a horror. Everything bad and dysfunctional about the nation has been amplified to the extreme.  Everything good and beautiful has been distorted into something unrecognizable and enlisted in service of evil aims.  If you love Russia you should hate what it has become.
 

Russia is not a special snowflake and does not have special security needs that trump the rest of the world. It is time for Russia to grow up and take on a more mature and cooperative view of security and politics.  Other nations have managed this.  For some it was traumatic- Germany, Japan. For others it was painful but managed— the melting away of the British Empire and French colonies.  These are also proud, historic nations with legitimate security concerns that have moved past paranoia and aggression and might makes right. Even the United States has been appropriately chastened by Iraq and Afghanistan and we now are more modest in our use of power and our ambitions, hopefully for good. If you love Russia you should hope they lose this war, quickly if possible, long and painfully if it comes to it.  They aren’t going to achieve anything good for themselves or the world if they win.
 

Most of us have seen someone we love completely lose the plot in a similar way. The things they want for themselves are bad, they exaggerate their faults. Even the qualities we used to value and love are twisted into something horrible.  They hurt people around them and they demand we sympathize.  Mature people know that the only response is to help the people they hurt and to let our loved ones experience the consequences of their actions. Even if it hurts us to see that happen.  We don’t help anyone by making excuses or trying to shield them from the tragedy they create for themselves.  Even when the people they are hurting aren’t perfect, even if we haven’t always been a perfect friend or dad or spouse, we have to recognize who is wrong and who is right. 
 

Finally— nations do not have emotions, interests, or aims. People do. It is not in the interest of the Russian people to be sanctioned or to see boys come back in boxes from an unneeded war in Ukraine that will not make Russians safer or more prosperous.  There is a lot of truth in the analogy that the Russian people are traumatized to the point that they have trouble knowing what’s actually good for them.  Many of us have seen this as well. We can’t want to help Russians more than Russians want to be helped.  Only Russians can decide for themselves that they hate being abused more than they love the good times with the abuser.  It’s not our job to make that process less painful for them, in fact, pain may be the only way they figure it out. 

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MaybeACoordinator

MaybeACoordinator 8349

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5 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

MAC, your need to blame everything on America has completely broken your brain. Try thinking “all empire bad,” just give it a shot. Just consider the possibility that someone other than the CIA is also doing bad shit in the world.

Which is why more neutral countries make for a better planet. 

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956 Worldwide

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Just now, MaybeACoordinator said:

That can be worked around, obviously. 

It literally cannot be worked around.  That happened once, with Korea when the Soviets stupidly boycotted the UNSC over the question of Taiwan or China being the UNSC representative. The UNSC voted to intervene in Korea without them and the Soviets/Russians have never left the room or caved on something they really wanted since. 

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MaybeACoordinator

MaybeACoordinator 8349

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17 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Gonna do a long cat post on Russia and empathy for Russia and Russians.  Up front: I love Russia. I have loved ones in Russia and will for the foreseeable future.  Russia was the first foreign country I lived in for any extended period. My Russian has degraded, but I used to read the Russian pantheon in the original.  My exposure to Russian spiritual writing led me to Orthodox Christianity. My bookshelf is full of known and not so known Russian writers, my walls with Russian icons. In art, music, literature, science, and culture Russia stands with Greece, Italy, and England in what it’s given the world.  No exaggeration.

I have to think that what I’ve felt as I’ve watched what Russia has turned into since the poor but hopeful days of the 1990s and early 2000s must be comparable to what people who genuinely loved Germany or Japan felt in the 1930s.  It is a horror. Everything bad and dysfunctional about the nation has been amplified to the extreme.  Everything good and beautiful has been distorted into something unrecognizable and enlisted in service of evil aims.  If you love Russia you should hate what it has become.
 

Russia is not a special snowflake and does not have special security needs that trump the rest of the world. It is time for Russia to grow up and take on a more mature and cooperative view of security and politics.  Other nations have managed this.  For some it was traumatic- Germany, Japan. For others it was painful but managed— the melting away of the British Empire and French colonies.  These are also proud, historic nations with legitimate security concerns that have moved past paranoia and aggression and might makes right. Even the United States has been appropriately chastened by Iraq and Afghanistan and we now are more modest in our use of power and our ambitions, hopefully for good. If you love Russia you should hope they lose this war, quickly if possible, long and painfully if it comes to it.  They aren’t going to achieve anything good for themselves or the world if they win.
 

Most of us have seen someone we love completely lose the plot in a similar way. The things they want for themselves are bad, they exaggerate their faults. Even the qualities we used to value and love are twisted into something horrible.  They hurt people around them and they demand we sympathize.  Mature people know that the only response is to help the people they hurt and to let our loved ones experience the consequences of their actions. Even if it hurts us to see that happen.  We don’t help anyone by making excuses or trying to shield them from the tragedy they create for themselves.  Even when the people they are hurting aren’t perfect, even if we haven’t always been a perfect friend or dad or spouse, we have to recognize who is wrong and who is right. 
 

Finally— nations do not have emotions, interests, or aims. People do. It is not in the interest of the Russian people to be sanctioned or to see boys come back in boxes from an unneeded war in Ukraine that will not make Russians safer or more prosperous.  There is a lot of truth in the analogy that the Russian people are traumatized to the point that they have trouble knowing what’s actually good for them.  Many of us have seen this as well. We can’t want to help Russians more than Russians want to be helped.  Only Russians can decide for themselves that they hate being abused more than they love the good times with the abuser.  It’s not our job to make that process less painful for them, in fact, pain may be the only way they figure it out. 

You know what? A cool Russian could say the same about Trump's America. With all the bashing of the Deplorables on here I would think this would be an uncontroversial opinion, but in this context I expect a few negs. So be it. 

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Guest Lobo

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19 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

 

This should provide for some interesting "I'm just asking questions" moments for Tucker Carlson.  

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Dahobbs

Dahobbs 17675

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35 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

No, you fucking idiot -- the UN enforces a treaty worked out by the interested parties here: Ukraine and Russia.

 

No you fucking idiot, the UN can't do anything unless Russia allows it. Hint: it will not. 

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MaybeACoordinator

MaybeACoordinator 8349

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10 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It literally cannot be worked around.  That happened once, with Korea when the Soviets stupidly boycotted the UNSC over the question of Taiwan or China being the UNSC representative. The UNSC voted to intervene in Korea without them and the Soviets/Russians have never left the room or caved on something they really wanted since. 

The laws of physics do not prevent it; therefore it can be worked around. This would test Putin's stated belief he really just wants a neutral Ukraine. So be it -- let's see. 

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Dahobbs

Dahobbs 17675

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11 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

You know what? A cool Russian could say the same about Trump's America. With all the bashing of the Deplorables on here I would think this would be an uncontroversial opinion, but in this context I expect a few negs. So be it. 

What is your fucking point with all this shit? I actually really like Russia. It was quite literally my major. I love the fucked up, twisted Russian view on life. It is bleak and beautiful at the same time. None of that changes anything about what is happening in Ukraine or what our response should be. And your nonsense with the UN is non starter unless you can get Putin to agree to it: you can't. 

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Captainant

Captainant 27743

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Posted
11 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

You know what? A cool Russian could say the same about Trump's America. With all the bashing of the Deplorables on here I would think this would be an uncontroversial opinion, but in this context I expect a few negs. So be it. 

John David Washington Fighting GIF by NETFLIX

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Dahobbs

Dahobbs 17675

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2 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

The laws of physics do not prevent it; therefore it can be worked around. This would test Putin's stated belief he really just wants a neutral Ukraine. So be it -- let's see. 

The laws of the UN prevent it. You're a goddamn idiot. 

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