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Ukraine War

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Horn Dog
Horn Dog

So our brain dead, demented president has managed to, without firing 1 shot, or risking 1 American life, and with the extremely limited tools at his disposal to respond to a mad man hell bent on irrat

BearSchlong
BearSchlong

The Biden 82nd airborne pizza eating photo? My son is in this photo.

cactusflinthead
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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28798

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, like all the "good" ones (overstatement), Kinzinger will not seek reelection.

So, no.

Anthony Gonzales too. I was sad to see him run as a Republican but he did the right thing and voted for impeachment, caught hell for it, and said tuck it, I’m out. 

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956 Worldwide

956 Worldwide 34758

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14 hours ago, bangkok said:

i'm about as anti-war as one may be, and i also try to look at all sides of an issue.

i'm a skeptic. i've never voted.

i think we see a ton of misinformation, propaganda from all angles.

i hate the political climate of the states, which is part of why i live in bangkok.

i want to know what conservatives are spouting on an issue, and same with progressives.. i try to look at multiple news sources and opinions.

that said, trump was a horrible president, and his presidency influences putins actions today.

i don't typically take sides.. i try to look at all angles, everything's a grey area for me. what one person benefits from, another suffers..

no one's right, and everyone has their own agenda.

i'm hoping we pursue a peaceful agenda and can take a longer-term view of that while flexing our military, economic, and political muscles to encourage peace.

You act like this stance is an expression of your sophisticated, worldly, nuanced outlook. In fact it is simply a refusal to exercise critical thinking capacity and to instead throw up your hands because you don’t want to do the work. It’s not even that hard to sift through the disinfo/misinfo and even to see the difference in quantity, quality, and aim. (Hint: the Ukrainians do it a lot less, much less toxically, and are trying  to keep up morale as they are invaded).

Usually people behave like this when they are aware that critically thinking will lead them places that they don’t want to go and that they might have to abandon a position that they’ve gotten comfortable with.  

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13 hours ago, F250 said:

MAC has always come across as more of a leftist progressive than a liberal. He definitely isn't a conservative and his views are not that different than the statement put out by the DSA or that of Bernie.

This war and entire region is a blind spot for a certain brand of western leftist.  They end up committing the error that they castigate others for: they deny millions of people agency or the right to self-preservation and determination.  In a framework where the United States and capitalism are to blame for most of the world’s ills, millions of Central Europeans deciding freely and logically to rush towards NATO and the western order presents and issue.  So they reduce the narrative to either aggressive NATO expansion or intelligence agency skullduggery. 
 

There is also, in some quarters, a whiff of racial politics: Europeans are imperialist colonizers.  The existence of millions of Poles, Belarusians, Ukrainians, Czechs, Slovaks, Romanians, etc. who are not perpetrators but victims and subjects of non-Western imperialism and colonialism throws a spanner into the framework.  
 

Frameworks are useful as a guide and a way to test ideas against reality. But you have to let reality win. 

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Goredho

Goredho 17419

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20 hours ago, bangkok said:

i'm hoping we pursue a peaceful agenda and can take a longer-term view of that while flexing our military, economic, and political muscles to encourage peace.

♫ All we are say....ing, is give peace a chance you're a dumbass ♫

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Dutchrudder

Dutchrudder 11150

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Captainant said:

Bruh. Zero hedge is a russian intelligence mouthpiece blog. Your choice of sources speaks volumes, tovarich

I didn't know US intelligence "leaked" that Zerohedge was tied to Russian propaganda directly. This happened before the invasion of Ukraine started. I wonder how many other sites have been named by officials off the record?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-15/us-accuses-financial-website-of-spreading-russian-propaganda

Funny thing is, I used to read Zerohedge back in 2007-2009 or so. They were big proponents of Ron Paul and his calls to Audit the Fed, reign in spending and have sensible monetary policy. If Ron Paul was the first candidate Russia backed in this Infowar project, it would make sense for them to push his views and pump him up. 

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28798

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41 minutes ago, Dutchrudder said:

I didn't know US intelligence "leaked" that Zerohedge was tied to Russian propaganda directly. This happened before the invasion of Ukraine started. I wonder how many other sites have been named by officials off the record?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-15/us-accuses-financial-website-of-spreading-russian-propaganda

Funny thing is, I used to read Zerohedge back in 2007-2009 or so. They were big proponents of Ron Paul and his calls to Audit the Fed, reign in spending and have sensible monetary policy. If Ron Paul was the first candidate Russia backed in this Infowar project, it would make sense for them to push his views and pump him up. 

This is a worthwhile reference:

http://www.propornot.com/p/the-list.html

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jimmyjazz

jimmyjazz 46124

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Posted

I can't remember if it was shaggy times or earlier, but there was a day where ZeroHedge got a lot of push around Longhorn forums for economic/financial writings.  Who was the guy who was the main proponent?  It's too long ago.  What's his sock now?

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bolverk

bolverk 29717

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4 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I can't remember if it was shaggy times or earlier, but there was a day where ZeroHedge got a lot of push around Longhorn forums for economic/financial writings.  Who was the guy who was the main proponent?  It's too long ago.  What's his sock now?

DSA was really big on it.

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MaybeACoordinator

MaybeACoordinator 8349

Posted
Posted
On 3/26/2022 at 8:50 AM, Captainant said:

MAC is doing that thing that redhats do where they ignore reality and instead play in the magical land of hypotheticals where the rules are made up and points don't matter.

It's the basic failing of today's conservative movement. They refuse to engage on the facts and will instead bloviate on nothing but rhetoric and theory.

Btw, for all the cries of negs and being victimized, @MaybeACoordinator sure has gotten literal pages of dialogue and discussion. Must be that cancel culture I hear so much about from MAC and sack and putin

 

You are wrong about everything about my political beliefs and have mischaracterized my posts. I've mentioned negs a couple of times in passing and have said nothing about "cancel culture" whatsoever. 

 

 

On 3/26/2022 at 11:24 AM, Royalfan5 said:

Someone should ask Belgium how agreeing to be neutral can work out for a flattish strategically located country

 

As I stated there were hiccups but in the long run -- look at it now, literally the capital of the European Union. If you'd told people that ni 1830 they'd think you were as insane as y'all are characterzing me for believing that Ukraine could be an eastern analogue. 

 

7 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

This war and entire region is a blind spot for a certain brand of western leftist.  They end up committing the error that they castigate others for: they deny millions of people agency or the right to self-preservation and determination.  In a framework where the United States and capitalism are to blame for most of the world’s ills, millions of Central Europeans deciding freely and logically to rush towards NATO and the western order presents and issue.  So they reduce the narrative to either aggressive NATO expansion or intelligence agency skullduggery. 
 

There is also, in some quarters, a whiff of racial politics: Europeans are imperialist colonizers.  The existence of millions of Poles, Belarusians, Ukrainians, Czechs, Slovaks, Romanians, etc. who are not perpetrators but victims and subjects of non-Western imperialism and colonialism throws a spanner into the framework.  
 

Frameworks are useful as a guide and a way to test ideas against reality. But you have to let reality win. 

*One thing I wanted to get out of the way -- yesterday you claimed that I watched RT and suggested I did so regularly. I watched RT once for a half hour months ago and could see right through their BS propaganda approach. What I have done a little more frequently is read RT.com, where the propaganda is far more opaque -- subtle to the point of hardly being propaganda at all. And I haven't done that in a week or so.

This is the one critique of the realist philosophy of IR that gives me pause, but I truly believe that, sadly, not every country can be a liberal democracy, and that it is in American fallacy that every country wants to be a liberal democracy, or should be a liberal democracy. Or that the proliferation of nation states is always a good thing. Former Yugoslavia has already gone up in flames once and remains a tinderbox today. Absent strongmen leaders, minorities suffer terribly in Middle Eastern states, and out crusade to westernize that region ended fast and badly in Iraq. (Remember, the plan the Iraq war's architects was to march on to Syria and Iran after our swift victory there.) 

Again it goes back to Thucydides: strong nations do what they will, weak nations what they must. America has egged Ukraine on for years now and now the country is in ruins and it almost seems dishonorable now for us not to come to their aid in a more direct manner; else, this is just a repeat of us encouraging the Kurdish uprising in Iraq in the first Gulf War and then standing by when Saddam crushed them after we left. Or any number of other times we've used the Kurds like a ten-dollar whore. 

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tx 3 putt

tx 3 putt 77397

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, Fastbreak said:

The mypillow guy is days away from producing the evidence of the ejection being rigged. That 98% of the minimal fraud that has been reported was in favor of the QOP is inconsequential.


And days away from 200mil+ Americans being arrested / locked up  !!!

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956 Worldwide

956 Worldwide 34758

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

 

You are wrong about everything about my political beliefs and have mischaracterized my posts. I've mentioned negs a couple of times in passing and have said nothing about "cancel culture" whatsoever. 

 

 

 

As I stated there were hiccups but in the long run -- look at it now, literally the capital of the European Union. If you'd told people that ni 1830 they'd think you were as insane as y'all are characterzing me for believing that Ukraine could be an eastern analogue. 

 

*One thing I wanted to get out of the way -- yesterday you claimed that I watched RT and suggested I did so regularly. I watched RT once for a half hour months ago and could see right through their BS propaganda approach. What I have done a little more frequently is read RT.com, where the propaganda is far more opaque -- subtle to the point of hardly being propaganda at all. And I haven't done that in a week or so.

This is the one critique of the realist philosophy of IR that gives me pause, but I truly believe that, sadly, not every country can be a liberal democracy, and that it is in American fallacy that every country wants to be a liberal democracy, or should be a liberal democracy. Or that the proliferation of nation states is always a good thing. Former Yugoslavia has already gone up in flames once and remains a tinderbox today. Absent strongmen leaders, minorities suffer terribly in Middle Eastern states, and out crusade to westernize that region ended fast and badly in Iraq. (Remember, the plan the Iraq war's architects was to march on to Syria and Iran after our swift victory there.) 

Again it goes back to Thucydides: strong nations do what they will, weak nations what they must. America has egged Ukraine on for years now and now the country is in ruins and it almost seems dishonorable now for us not to come to their aid in a more direct manner; else, this is just a repeat of us encouraging the Kurdish uprising in Iraq in the first Gulf War and then standing by when Saddam crushed them after we left. Or any number of other times we've used the Kurds like a ten-dollar whore. 

Two former Yugoslav Republics are in the EU and NATO, two more are in NATO with EU accession in the works.  All of them are at peace with their neighbors, are wealthier than at any point in their history, and safe.  The breakup of Yugoslavia was an awesome thing for them and could be for the Serbs too, if they cared more about being healthy than bringing others down. 
 

Also BELGIUM IS NOT FUCKING NEUTRAL. It’s where it is because it stopped being neutral and integrated into a broader security structure. 

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MaybeACoordinator

MaybeACoordinator 8349

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Posted
1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Two former Yugoslav Republics are in the EU and NATO, two more are in NATO with EU accession in the works.  All of them are at peace with their neighbors, are wealthier than at any point in their history, and safe.  The breakup of Yugoslavia was an awesome thing for them and could be for the Serbs too, if they cared more about being healthy than bringing others down. 

But there's the rub -- there's always an asshole around. 

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Shaddie

Shaddie 1651

Posted
Posted

Jesus Fucking Christ MAC

 

    You keep saying this and yet you cannot explain how Russia is afraid of being invaded. What are they afraid of? They can nuke anybody. 
Once please answer why the are afraid. 
 

 

 

Or could it be they don’t want democracy on their door step. 

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28798

Posted
Posted
Just now, tx 3 putt said:

A foldable pizza slice is an undercooked or soggy crust = out !!!!

Yeah, that’s not correct. Any New Yorkers want to chime in here? A good New York slice will have a thinner crust, not too thin (unless it’s coal-fired which is to die for). And the tip won’t droop. But it’ll be cut in wide wedges so folding it makes it easier to eat with one hand.

I don’t want to pretend I’m an expert but I have a little bit of experience living and traveling between the New York to Chicago pizza beltway. Maybe Penelope or UpperWestside would like to share their thoughts. 

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tx 3 putt

tx 3 putt 77397

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Yeah, that’s not correct. Any New Yorkers want to chime in here? A good New York slice will have a thinner crust, not too thin (unless it’s coal-fired which is to die for). And the tip won’t droop. But it’ll be cut in wide wedges so folding it makes it easier to eat with one hand.

I don’t want to pretend I’m an expert but I have a little bit of experience living and traveling between the New York to Chicago pizza beltway. Maybe Penelope or UpperWestside would like to share their thoughts. 


The Office Pizza GIF by Danny Chang

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MaybeACoordinator

MaybeACoordinator 8349

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, Shaddie said:

Jesus Fucking Christ MAC

 

    You keep saying this and yet you cannot explain how Russia is afraid of being invaded. What are they afraid of? They can nuke anybody. 
Once please answer why the are afraid. 
 

 

 

Or could it be they don’t want democracy on their door step. 

It's not rational. Why does England make you quarantine your pets for a full fucking year to ensure they are not rabid?

In Russia's case, it's a leftover from the tens of millions killed in living memory.

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Shaddie

Shaddie 1651

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Posted
3 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

It's not rational. Why does England make you quarantine your pets for a full fucking year to ensure they are not rabid?

In Russia's case, it's a leftover from the tens of millions killed in living memory.

So they should never change? That is bullshit and you know it. The whole world should be held hostage cause a dictator uses bullshit to whip up fear. 
Fuck that. 

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MaybeACoordinator

MaybeACoordinator 8349

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, Shaddie said:

Jesus Fucking Christ MAC

 

    You keep saying this and yet you cannot explain how Russia is afraid of being invaded. What are they afraid of? They can nuke anybody. 
Once please answer why the are afraid. 
 

 

 

Or could it be they don’t want democracy on their door step. 

Finland and the Baltics have been there for years now.

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PenelopeWitherspoon

PenelopeWitherspoon 19142

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

It's not rational. Why does England make you quarantine your pets for a full fucking year to ensure they are not rabid?

In Russia's case, it's a leftover from the tens of millions killed in living memory.

Um, they don't.  Neither does the EU.  There are rules in place, but that quarantine (which at one time was 6 months) is a thing of the past.  I'm shocked you used incorrect information to try and prove an incorrect point.  Holy shit you are dense.

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bangkok

bangkok 89

Posted
Posted
20 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

No, you’re just a moron. It’s like if you go around saying the Earth is flat. People won’t be calling you a moron because you don’t think exactly as they do. They’ll be calling you a moron because you’re a goddamn fool. And they’ll be right. 

yea, you may be right. i'm not sure. 

i don't really think any one of us could be sure who's "right" as this is a charged situation, continually evolving, and what information we're given is incomplete and biased.

i'll give you that.

i'm saying we're on equal footing and our opinions are relatively equally valid as the possible outcomes of this war aren't able to be analyzed with a costs and benefits, and surly isn't quite a peer-reviewed journal either. we're all guessing here.

your opinion isn't more valid than mine prima facia, but i'm open to listening and changing my views if you'd express that clearly.

if i said nuke russia, or abandon ukraine completely, i'd imagine either of those views would be justifiably and heavily criticized.

what i'm saying is probably as reasonable as it gets.

no escalation from either side, and do whatever we can to broker peace.

and you're saying i'm a moron without countering my concerns.

you're attacking my intelligence rather than addressing the issues.

that's moronic.

so please give me an explanation of why hoping for the most peaceful resolution here makes me a moron.

all that said, i do feel like a moron for responding to this because i don't think you'll be able to put together a coherent response - so prove me wrong, i'm all ears.

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Neonmoon

Neonmoon 38130

Posted
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

It's not rational. Why does England make you quarantine your pets for a full fucking year to ensure they are not rabid?

In Russia's case, it's a leftover from the tens of millions killed in living memory.

England does not make you quarantine your pets for a full year. As long as they’re microchipped and vaccinated, they can enter. 

This info is easily available on their website. https://www.gov.uk/bring-pet-to-great-britain
 

Edited by Neonmoon
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bangkok

bangkok 89

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

You act like this stance is an expression of your sophisticated, worldly, nuanced outlook. In fact it is simply a refusal to exercise critical thinking capacity and to instead throw up your hands because you don’t want to do the work. It’s not even that hard to sift through the disinfo/misinfo and even to see the difference in quantity, quality, and aim. (Hint: the Ukrainians do it a lot less, much less toxically, and are trying  to keep up morale as they are invaded).

Usually people behave like this when they are aware that critically thinking will lead them places that they don’t want to go and that they might have to abandon a position that they’ve gotten comfortable with.  

this is a great post, thank you for that.

i'm in full agreement ukraine deserves democracy and peace - as any country who seeks that, does too.

i also agree it's clear which side most of the misinformation is coming from. 

my point is that it's also important to look at the other side to gain some sense of understanding.

we largely agree.

i'm also in agreement that we shouldn't be allowing putin to dictate the outcome of this.

he's backed in a corner, he's desperate, that's probably good but fuck is it dangerous too.

give the man an out.

if we don't do that, i think the loss of life and repercussions are at risk of becoming significantly worse if we continue to provide an endless supply of weapons to ukraine. i'd love to see a diplomatic end to this as soon as possible.

on a slightly different note, i'd also like to ask why now is where the line in the sand must be drawn? clearly we've watched the buildup of troops for months and did very little. and for years his ambitions were met with very little resistance.

now clearly putin is unhinged and overestimated his capabilities and western response. i'd love to see him fuck off and minimize loss of life and end the war. 

right now it appears we're content with buckling down and continuing this for months, with great risk of escalation. i find that troubling.

what's the best case scenario in your view?

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