Ukraine War

[Brisketexan 105,082]

I will say it's my personal belief that one of the dangers of being a populist and appealing to the lowest common denominator is that there's always a danger that at some point you start believing your own bullshit. It's part of what makes the best cons/salespeople. There's a whole "what's good for America is good for General Motors, and vice versa" type of mindset. The country is better off with me in power and therefore the things I say and do are perfectly justified, and there's some truth in there anyway, so it's not like I'm completely lying or fabricating it (even though they are). 
I do notice there's a lot of railing about the far right on here, but extremes on both sides are capable of some of the same kinds of mindsets. And unfortunately, conversations are naturally driven by the people who take the most extreme positions among us. 
The real issue as far as I'm concerned is the use of computer technology and fine tuning datasets to establish more and more effective gerrymandering. When the system itself rewards extreme mindsets by requiring candidates to appeal to the most motivated members of their tribe in primaries, without having to significantly concern themselves with general elections, there's going to be a natural pull to the extreme. People are as motivated at the issue of facing a well backed opponent in the primary as they are at losing the race. So they'll tend to shift towards the extreme simply to avoid that outcome. Which can be just as destructive for the kind of representative process I'd like to see as electing a Marjorie Taylor Greene. 

I disagree. A good example on the left is Noam Chomsky. I disagree with him on most such things, and have for as long as I’ve known of him. BUT…I don’t believe he’s serving any other person’s agenda. He gave these matters a great deal of thought, reached his conclusions, and that’s what he believes. He’s dead-fucking wrong, and repeatedly fails to account for chaotic human nature, setting unrealistic standards and condemning based on same…but again, they are REAL ideas, and they are his. And, they are motivated by a foundational desire to reach an outcome that is best for all humanity.
The American Right’s slavish devotion to Putinism? It’s all about their thirst for power and control. They love putinsim because they want to implement it here, with them playing the role of Putin. And the only people who would find any favor in this world are members of their own tribe; all others are enemies, second-class citizens, or just plain disposable.
Two wrong-headed ways of approaching this world. One motivated by a goal of the world being better for all. The other motivated by a thirst for absolute power and a desire to make the world good for the chosen tribe, and hell on earth for all “out groups” as decided by the chosen tribe.
That’s a huge fucking difference. A goddamn Grand Canyon of difference. One is misguided. The other is evil.
Fuck evil. Fuck its adherents and champions. We fought an existential war against an iteration of evil last century. I’m glad we’re - at least for now - on the right side of a similar fight in this century.

[Biff Tannen 45,666]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Two wrong-headed ways of approaching this world. One motivated by a goal of the world being better for all. The other motivated by a thirst for absolute power and a desire to make the world good for the chosen tribe, and hell on earth for all “out groups” as decided by the chosen tribe.
That’s a huge fucking difference. A goddamn Grand Canyon of difference. One is misguided. The other is evil.

This.  One is understandable and even noble, but as you said, misguided.  The other is fucking selfish, evil, and wrong.

[cactusflinthead 27,598]

[SL Xpress 7,513]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

I disagree. A good example on the left is Noam Chomsky. I disagree with him on most such things, and have for as long as I’ve known of him. BUT…I don’t believe he’s serving any other person’s agenda. He gave these matters a great deal of thought, reached his conclusions, and that’s what he believes. He’s dead-fucking wrong, and repeatedly fails to account for chaotic human nature, setting unrealistic standards and condemning based on same…but again, they are REAL ideas, and they are his. And, they are motivated by a foundational desire to reach an outcome that is best for all humanity.
The American Right’s slavish devotion to Putinism? It’s all about their thirst for power and control. They love putinsim because they want to implement it here, with them playing the role of Putin. And the only people who would find any favor in this world are members of their own tribe; all others are enemies, second-class citizens, or just plain disposable.
Two wrong-headed ways of approaching this world. One motivated by a goal of the world being better for all. The other motivated by a thirst for absolute power and a desire to make the world good for the chosen tribe, and hell on earth for all “out groups” as decided by the chosen tribe.
That’s a huge fucking difference. A goddamn Grand Canyon of difference. One is misguided. The other is evil.
Fuck evil. Fuck its adherents and champions. We fought an existential war against an iteration of evil last century. I’m glad we’re - at least for now - on the right side of a similar fight in this century.

 

But Noam Chomsky has never sought out power. Therein lies a goddamn Grand Canyon of difference, to use your words. Karl Marx wasn't evil. Jesus Christ wasn't evil. Nietzsche wasn't evil. It's when the application of their words are used to obtain and then execute the instruments of power that evil is performed. There can be no abuse of power without holding power, by definition. And I'm convinced that all of us under specific circumstances are capable of heinous acts of abuse if we're able to convince ourselves of its utility and righteous purpose. That's not exclusive to one side of a debate or another. That's inherent in our species and was rewarded over hundreds of thousands of years, arguably millions, as our species evolved. 

So what's important is that our side first of all has the military and/or political might to achieve our objective, and then secondarily refrains from the worst abuses of power. But the first part still comes before the second. You can't show any restraint if you don't possess the power to do so in the first place. 

But yes, Putinism is evil. As you've pointed out previously, there's something broken about the Russian culture inherently that's not going to be easily fixed, or maybe never fixed at all. I'm still unconvinced that the Germans have completely expunged some of the instincts that led to WWII and the Holocaust. They've merely shifted that mentality into predatory economic strategies. Which, all the better, frankly. But I'm unconvinced they've fundamentally changed.

And for sure the Japanese are still the most xenophobic population on this planet. Being conquered for the first time in their history has helped in all kinds of ways, but fundamentally they're still the same culture that prosecuted the war in southeast Asia. 

Really, outside of an occupation of Russia and a complete takeover of their system of government and educational system for a significant period of time, I don't see them becoming less capable of evil in the future. And I don't see an occupation in a timeline in which I exist. 

But yeah, I'm with you that I'm glad we're on the side we're on, and that we're doing as much as we're doing. Eternally grateful, really.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33,867]

2 hours ago, cactusflinthead said:

ok, Dallas doesn't TOTALLY suck

[Captainant 27,640]

1 hour ago, SL Xpress said:

I'm still unconvinced that the Germans have completely expunged some of the instincts that led to WWII and the Holocaust. They've merely shifted that mentality into predatory economic strategies. Which, all the better, frankly. But I'm unconvinced they've fundamentally changed.

I mean, we still have a shitload of institutional racism and discrimination in our country, largely due to the failure of reconstruction. I'd argue that German has done better than we have in diminishing the power of their worst thinkers, and your point of "shifting to a predatory economic strategy" is just literally the southern strategy in different words

[cactusflinthead 27,598]

 

[atomheartbevo 89,630]

Gotta admit, with all of the shit that happened in 2020 and 2021, I really didn't have "Republicans destroying their reputations by embracing Russia and its ex-KGB dictator".

When Republicans bash Reagan and claim they are not the part of Reagan, I fully believe them.

[cactusflinthead 27,598]

 

[956 Worldwide 34,705]

Vindman is right. Look, it’s true there are some really useful idiots on the left, and in some European nations they are the vanguard of Russia’s influence. 
 

In our country we just have to admit that the only truly powerful and influential people singing off that sheet music are in the GOP. Intelligent GOP voters would ask why their leaders are saying identical shit to true-pink, far-left socialists and commies in Europe, but the GOP encourages parochialism. 

[Biff Tannen 45,666]

17 hours ago, Captainant said:

I mean, we still have a shitload of institutional racism and discrimination in our country, largely due to the failure of reconstruction. I'd argue that German has done better than we have in diminishing the power of their worst thinkers, and your point of "shifting to a predatory economic strategy" is just literally the southern strategy in different words

They also banned the Nazis in every conceivable way while we erected statues to our traitors. 

[956 Worldwide 34,705]

 

[atomheartbevo 89,630]

[956 Worldwide 34,705]

I’d really like to congratulate Senator Cruz for saying the quiet part out loud and accurately describing American conservatism: “if the libs are for it, we’re against it even if it’s the right thing.” 
 

If this was just some culture war bullshit instead of the existence of a nation and people it would be funny. 
 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ted-cruz-said-support-ukraine-205725105.html

Quote

Cruz said that there are conservatives who "want Putin to lose" but who are disaffected with being on the same side as liberals.

"As we see all these leftists preening around with Ukrainian flags, and you know almost dancing with their fealty to" Zelenskyy, Cruz said, "it is driving millions of Americans away and saying, 'All right, if they're for it, I ain't for it.'"

 

 

[WhatTheBuck 28,775]

Ted doesn’t like Zelensky because Zelensky was man enough to stand up to Trump. 

[The Royal We 3,069]

4 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I’d really like to congratulate Senator Cruz for saying the quiet part out loud and accurately describing American conservatism: “if the libs are for it, we’re against it even if it’s the right thing.” 
 

If this was just some culture war bullshit instead of the existence of a nation and people it would be funny. 
 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ted-cruz-said-support-ukraine-205725105.html

 

 

This fuckin guy.

[Biff Tannen 45,666]

5 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I’d really like to congratulate Senator Cruz for saying the quiet part out loud and accurately describing American conservatism: “if the libs are for it, we’re against it even if it’s the right thing.” 
 

If this was just some culture war bullshit instead of the existence of a nation and people it would be funny. 
 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ted-cruz-said-support-ukraine-205725105.html

 

 

YOU MADE ME SIDE WITH PUTIN!

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13,578]

4 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I’d really like to congratulate Senator Cruz for saying the quiet part out loud and accurately describing American conservatism: “if the libs are for it, we’re against it even if it’s the right thing.” 
 

If this was just some culture war bullshit instead of the existence of a nation and people it would be funny. 
 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ted-cruz-said-support-ukraine-205725105.html

 

 

Of course the Flag Addicts Party Senator thinks flag waving is preening now. And even though he's saying the quiet part loud, he's still being deceptive by omitting there's plenty of authoritarian, might equals right conservatives that want to see Putin win, so even while admitting the obvious, and something other GOP officials have stated in the past- that their goal is to automatically oppose anything the Dems support, even if it's something the GOP previously supported- he's still being deliberately deceptive.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13,578]

8 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

YOU MADE ME SIDE WITH PUTIN!

I used to teach you peons the ways of personal responsibility, now look what you made me do!

[cactusflinthead 27,598]

This has absolutely nothing and everything to do with politics.

[WhatTheBuck 28,775]

Have you seen this story? I caught this on Anderson Cooper the other night. It’s part of the larger story of Ukrainian children being taken by Russia. Here they’re parading around a 15-year-old Ukrainian girl at a rally in Moscow, along with her orphaned siblings, and making her “thank” the Russian soldier for “saving” them. People reportedly were posting death threats and hateful things about her online. But looking at her tears I don’t think she’s there and saying those things by choice. She looks traumatized. The whole thing is just sick.

Here’s the segment from Anderson Cooper 360:

Here’s more reporting on it:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/25/thats-my-neighbour-mariupol-residents-shock-at-putins-parade-line-up

[Schulz2.0 28,951]

Because I can't post this in the DT thread:

 

[Tuco 5,076]

I don't know who else follows GeographyNow, but he's a youtuber who has been doing videos on all of the UN recognized countries in alphabetical order.  He made it up to Ukraine.  Good primer on the country including current events. 

 

 

[cactusflinthead 27,598]

Rancid appeasement.

Yeah that fits.

And then this 

 

 

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by cactusflinthead

[wildcat09 29,348]

So this isn't exactly about the war, but I don't think it really merits its own thread and there's a bit of a connection here. The Grayzone "alt-left" chuds, who like to dabble in war crimes denial for Assad and Putin, released an article yesterday attacking the Navalny documentary for being filled with misinformation. It turns out, their article had some, uh, problems:

 

 

 

 

TLDR, the Grayzone dipshits basically used chatGPT to make up a bunch of lies to peddle their pro-Russia bullshit and were incredibly sloppy about it, because while they are malevolent they're also extremely stupid.  

Edited March 14, 2023 by wildcat09

[Biff Tannen 45,666]

2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

So this isn't exactly about the war, but I don't think it really merits its own thread and there's a bit of a connection here. The Grayzone "alt-left" chuds, who like to dabble in war crimes denial for Assad and Putin, released an article yesterday attacking the Navalny documentary for being filled with misinformation. It turns out, their article had some, uh, problems:

 

 

 

 

TLDR, the Grayzone dipshits basically used chatGPT to make up a bunch of lies to peddle their pro-Russia bullshit and were incredibly sloppy about it, because while they are malevolent they're also extremely stupid.  

JFC.  How fucking lazy do you have to be?  Journalism is dead.

[Satchel 6,934]

MTG and Granny are not going to like this one bit:

The International Criminal Court has issued an arrest warrant for Russian President Vladimir Putin for alleged war crimes involving accusations that Russia has forcibly taken Ukrainian children.

The ICC also issued a warrant for Putin's commissioner for children's rights, Maria Lvova-Belova.

The court said in a news release Friday the two are "allegedly responsible for the war crime of unlawful deportation of population (children) and that of unlawful transfer of population (children) from occupied areas of Ukraine to the Russian Federation."

The move by the criminal court at the Hague marked a significant step, requesting the arrest of a sitting world leader — even as analysts acknowledged the chances of arresting President Putin are slim.

[nbmishoid 949]

On 2/25/2023 at 8:12 AM, Biff Tannen said:

This.  One is understandable and even noble, but as you said, misguided.  The other is fucking selfish, evil, and wrong.

I would say his commitment to better the world is his fundamental position, and that is not misguided.  Secondly, his honest assessments of the goals and impacts of US policy have been mostly right, during a long time when much of us assessed the same with too much coloring in our glasses. And as you say, he is very thoughtful.  None of this is misguided.  True, he quite bizarrely sees any hierarchy as a means to evil power.  He was never a Cub Scout den mother.  And his views on epistemology are unreadable. 
 

Misguided is to be working for evil while thinking or being deluded by the opposite.   That is our friends on the right.  I would trade any of them for a bunch of Chomsky’s.  

[956 Worldwide 34,705]

On 3/14/2023 at 3:24 PM, Biff Tannen said:

JFC.  How fucking lazy do you have to be?  Journalism is dead.

The Gray Zone isn’t journalism, it’s a channel for authoritarian propaganda. 

[cactusflinthead 27,598]

Might be the only time I agree with him this year.

 

[WhatTheBuck 28,775]

On 3/18/2023 at 4:10 AM, 956 Worldwide said:

The Gray Zone isn’t journalism, it’s a channel for authoritarian propaganda. 

The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. 

[YGIFS 19,449]

Listen Betty, don't start in with your white zone shit again.  

[Longhorn_Fan68 33,867]

possible dumb question alert: can russians wanting to flee and come to the US claim asylum due to not wanting to become part of the meat grinder that is the russian army?

[Woland 732]

possible dumb question alert: can russians wanting to flee and come to the US claim asylum due to not wanting to become part of the meat grinder that is the russian army?

I don’t know the answer to this question, but I know Russian refugees need a western COVID vaccine. One of my former exchange daughters (and her family) escaped to Switzerland. She was scheduled to come to Dallas for business but was stopped at the Geneva airport and not allowed to fly because she had only received the Russian vaccine. It was strange because I stopped worrying about those things a year ago.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33,867]

7 minutes ago, Woland said:

I don’t know the answer to this question, but I know Russian refugees need a western COVID vaccine. One of my former exchange daughters (and her family) escaped to Switzerland. She was scheduled to come to Dallas for business but was stopped at the Geneva airport and not allowed to fly because she had only received the Russian vaccine. It was strange because I stopped worrying about those things a year ago.

I don't mind that rule. I'm guessing the russian vax is probably bunk

[JohnnyRage 1,617]

It was vodka.

[Woland 732]

I don't mind that rule. I'm guessing the russian vax is probably bunk

I don’t disagree.

[Grade of D as in David 13,253]

23 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. 

Will Nick Saban pick up the airport courtesy phone please?

[atomheartbevo 89,630]

 

[DigglerontheHoof 21,183]

American Christians, the ultimate rubes. 

[YGIFS 19,449]

On 3/23/2023 at 2:56 PM, DigglerontheHoof said:

American Christians, the ultimate rubes. 

Yeah, no judgement here.  But I hope and pray that I remain an educated man as well as a man of faith.  And after doing "My own research", I've concluded that despite all its global shortcomings and errors, Christianity still has a great deal to offer the world and that American Christianity is the absolute, stupidest fucking version of it---bar none and it's not even close.  To me, the most Christian nations on Earth, in terms of numbers and values are in Latin America.  And we're just this late model, fix-it, bastardized version of it all.  And the worst fucking part?  We couldn't be more loudly proud of it.  We're stuck on a few convenient passages from the 137th translated version of a book some Latino friends of ours accidentally left behind at our duplex and ostensibly killing people based on what we read from the grease-stuck pages we happened upon on the shitter.  

[Tuco 5,076]

Well, on that basis, I’d have to say the Russian Orthodox Church is up there as worse fucking version of Christianity. American Christianity isn’t a huge outlier.

[atomheartbevo 89,630]

https://www.mediaite.com/trump/trump-predicts-russia-will-conquer-ukraine-gushes-over-very-smart-people-putin-and-xi-at-waco-rally/

Quote

Former President Donald Trump used his campaign rally to rail against the state of the war in Ukraine — while making glowing remarks on Russian President Vladimir Putin and Chinese President Xi Jinping.

In his Saturday rally out of Waco, TX, Trump largely turned the event into an airing of his usual grievances as he blasted a long list of his political enemies. Russia’s year-long invasion of Ukraine was a recurring topic in the speech — with Trump claiming that if re-elected president in 2024, “I will have the disastrous war between Russia and Ukraine settled. It would never have happened.”

Quote

This led to Trump making his prediction of how the war will end, plus his reaction to the meeting Putin and Xi had last week.

Quote

I got along well with Putin. I used to talk to Putin about it. It’s something he certainly had on his mind, never even talked about for four years. You didn’t even hear about it. As soon as I was out… they started putting soldiers on the border. But even then, he didn’t want to do it. He wanted to get a piece. Now it looks like he’ll end up probably getting the whole thing, but I’ve never seen anything like it.

And if you saw the other day — President Xi, smart, top of his game. President Putin, smart, very smart people, standing there talking about the world order for the next 100 years. That’s one of the saddest things you can imagine.

Quote

Trump went on to insist. “I’m gonna get a settlement very quickly.” He has admitted in the past that this peace plan of his would involve having Ukraine give up its territory to Russia.

Dunning-Kruger effect in action, kind of.  Trump is fucking stupid when it comes world events, that much we know.  But he not only fails to recognize his stupidity (and thinks he can solve the world's problems), but he doesn't recognize the stupidity of Putin either.  In his eyes, Putin is a strong man, a man that Trump desperately wants to emulate avoid the blackmail comeing out, and Trump would do what Putin is doing because he thinks it's okay, and therefore Putin is right and Trump is right.

[DigglerontheHoof 21,183]

https://www.reuters.com/world/wall-street-journal-reporter-russia-detained-suspicion-spying-ifax-cites-fsb-2023-03-30/

 

LONDON, March 30 (Reuters) - A Moscow court ruled that a U.S. journalist for the Wall Street Journal newspaper should be detained for nearly two months on suspicion of spying for Washington, the most serious move against a foreign journalist since Russia invaded Ukraine.

Russia's FSB security service said earlier on Thursday it had opened a criminal case against U.S. national Evan Gershkovich on suspicion of espionage and the Kremlin said he had been "caught red-handed".

 

Russia cranking up FAFO

[bolverk 29,657]

This was posted over in the Daily Texan thread without too much comment. I think it deserves to be highlighted here.

 

[cactusflinthead 27,598]

I'm going to put this over here instead of the DT thread.  I got right up to the line with the latest iteration of GRU and this will put it even closer.

I'm not worried about Japan buying 13000 barrels of oil. Nor the ability of people to get gas in Europe.

 

[AnTiM 1,666]

Vladlen Tatarsky, a blogger who favored the Ukraine invasion, has been killed by a bomb hidden in a statuette given

 to him at a St. Petersburg  party.  Several attendees also died.  This according to Reuters.  Hope it was a Russian who arranged it.

Edited April 2, 2023 by AnTiM
add source

[Longhorn_Fan68 33,867]

59 minutes ago, AnTiM said:

Vladlen Tatarsky, a blogger who favored the Ukraine invasion, has been killed by a bomb hidden in a statuette given

 to him at a St. Petersburg  party.  Several attendees also died.  This according to Reuters.  Hope it was a Russian who arranged it.

 

 

[cactusflinthead 27,598]

Let's see what kind of coalition they are going to put together.

 

[cactusflinthead 27,598]

It is so weird watching this now.