Ukraine War

[wildcat09 29453]

Oh, look who is pretending that Russian pro-genocide blogger was just a journalist:

 

 

[WhatTheBuck 28825]

Just asking questions.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33917]

it's really, really, amazing to watch the mental contortions people are going through these days to make Russia not seem like the existential threat that they are. I mean, I'm not young nor am I old, but it wasn't that long ago that EVERYONE was in agreement about who Russia was/is. amazing the damage social media and election meddling has done.  

[bolverk 29807]

3 hours ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

it's really, really, amazing to watch the mental contortions people are going through these days to make Russia not seem like the existential threat that they are. I mean, I'm not young nor am I old, but it wasn't that long ago that EVERYONE was in agreement about who Russia was/is. amazing the damage social media and election meddling has done.  

Yeah, and blacklab is back to deleting posts again in the DT thread on the war. Last night, someone brought up Brexit, and I mentioned that Russia partly backed that effort. I also stated that any effort to break up NATO/EU likely also had Russia's support. Certain posters apparently got butthurt by those factually correct statements, and blacklab decided he needed to delete all the posts related to that brief sideline discussion that ended last night. He's now drawn a line in the sand that all posts not directly related to the conflict in the Ukrainian theater should be deleted. 

[Captainant 27970]

18 hours ago, cactusflinthead said:

It is so weird watching this now.

 

That's a wild thing to post - so much that has aged bizzarely. It was filmed during the 2014 Sochi Olympics, right before the Crimean invasion. At 2 minutes in, Bourdain compares russians feelings towards putin as NY'ers to guliani: "he may be a sonofabitch, but he's our sonofabitch". Fuckin dude even makes a direct trump<->putin comparison! "He is a businessman with an ego... he is Donald Trump, but shorter." (6ish minutes in)

 

Fucking crazy timecapsule of a video, especially with the late Bourdain

EDIT: wow that really is a look into many desired republican policies: extremely restrictive voting polices, "free speech zones" to contain protesting, and a deeply authoritarian culture that is deferential to their chief executive. 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Captainant

[atomheartbevo 90041]

7 hours ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

it's really, really, amazing to watch the mental contortions people are going through these days to make Russia not seem like the existential threat that they are. I mean, I'm not young nor am I old, but it wasn't that long ago that EVERYONE was in agreement about who Russia was/is. amazing the damage social media and election meddling has done.  

And the fact that they celebrate certain traits of Putin that would make somebody like Putin assassinate somebody with a bomb in a statue, but are trying to pretend that Putin wouldn't do it.  And they are glossing over that the guy was not a fan of Putin's, and that he was involved with the Wagner folks.

"We need a strong man who is not scared of killing some people to save his country"

"Oh, that's not Putin's work, that's the work of some shadowy group that is a threat to Russian society!"

I wish it was some shadowy group that was out killing people like that guy, but the reality is that it's exactly the kind of thing that Putin would do to send a message.

[WhatTheBuck 28825]

29 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

I wish it was some shadowy group that was out killing people like that guy, but the reality is that it's exactly the kind of thing that Putin would do to send a message.

"There are a lot of killers. You think our country's so innocent?"

 

[Biff Tannen 45763]

10 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

Oh, look who is pretending that Russian pro-genocide blogger was just a journalist:

 

 

Quote

Wonder if it might be the same people who murdered Darya Dungina in her car?

Dong Bangina?  Where has he been lately?

[Woland 749]

Daria Trepova reminded me of Fanny Kaplan. I’m not sure if there is any English language histories of Fanny, but there are plenty of Russian conspiracies surrounding her.

[atomheartbevo 90041]

20 minutes ago, Woland said:

I’m not sure if there is any English language histories of Fanny

Only English-language history of a Fanny that I know about is the memoirs of Fanny Hill, by noted historian John Cleland.

[YGIFS 19453]

Page 47:  I laid down then upon the couch.  And Charles finished undressing himself.  Revealing to my eyes that column of delight whose impatient gestures signaled the prelude to love's ecstatic union.   

I often wonder what happened to Vicky Eulennette of Fort Wayne, Indiana.  

[WhatTheBuck 28825]

9 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

Only English-language history of a Fanny that I know about is the memoirs of Fanny Hill, by noted historian John Cleland.

Are you unfamiliar with the adventures of Little Annie Fanny?

[Longhorn_Fan68 33917]

👀

 

 

[horn4life 3813]

The crazy thing is Putin pulled off the greatest espionage operation in the history of man with his collusion with the Trump Campaign.  I honestly cannot think of an operation that had a more deleterious effect.  Complete change of the balance of the Supreme Court. Complete lack of commitment to NATO, and Trump's never ending subservience to Putin.

Yet this success lured Putin into thinking that NATO was so damaged by Trump that there is no way that NATO would be an effective counter to Putins invasion offensive.  Thankfully the first thing Biden did was try to rebuild our coalitions and alliances.  It is also very good that Biden knew so many of the other leaders and had a reputation for honestly and trustworthiness.  I honestly don't think Hillary, Romney or any of the other potential Presidents would have been as effective at this reconstitution as Biden was.

And that was the big miscalculation, that Biden was going to be incapable of leading a real coalition and that was a big mistake.  I also think that Biden soon needs to flex on Putin, and I would use the arrest of WSJ journalist as the lever.  Just wait a while and then start supplying planes to Ukraine.  Does this risk escalation? Sure, but I also think at this point commands to fire nuclear missiles might lead to Putin's death at the hands of those closest to him.  I will be interesting to see how the counteroffensive this Spring goes for the good guys.  

In a very weird way the great success Putin had with Trump may have made him grossly overestimate his capabilities.  This thing is a long way from over, but the biggest danger to the success of this war is keeping Republicans out of control at the Federal level.  Crazy isn't it? That the single best thing that could happen to Putin is to have Trump and the GOP return to power and starve the Ukrainian war funding.  Sure hope the good guys make some huge gains in the next few months!

[Captainant 27970]

On 4/5/2023 at 3:58 PM, horn4life said:

The crazy thing is Putin pulled off the greatest espionage operation in the history of man with his collusion with the Trump Campaign.  I honestly cannot think of an operation that had a more deleterious effect.  Complete change of the balance of the Supreme Court. Complete lack of commitment to NATO, and Trump's never ending subservience to Putin.

Yet this success lured Putin into thinking that NATO was so damaged by Trump that there is no way that NATO would be an effective counter to Putins invasion offensive.  Thankfully the first thing Biden did was try to rebuild our coalitions and alliances.  It is also very good that Biden knew so many of the other leaders and had a reputation for honestly and trustworthiness.  I honestly don't think Hillary, Romney or any of the other potential Presidents would have been as effective at this reconstitution as Biden was.

And that was the big miscalculation, that Biden was going to be incapable of leading a real coalition and that was a big mistake.  I also think that Biden soon needs to flex on Putin, and I would use the arrest of WSJ journalist as the lever.  Just wait a while and then start supplying planes to Ukraine.  Does this risk escalation? Sure, but I also think at this point commands to fire nuclear missiles might lead to Putin's death at the hands of those closest to him.  I will be interesting to see how the counteroffensive this Spring goes for the good guys.  

In a very weird way the great success Putin had with Trump may have made him grossly overestimate his capabilities.  This thing is a long way from over, but the biggest danger to the success of this war is keeping Republicans out of control at the Federal level.  Crazy isn't it? That the single best thing that could happen to Putin is to have Trump and the GOP return to power and starve the Ukrainian war funding.  Sure hope the good guys make some huge gains in the next few months!

This isn't just conjecture. It's factual record. 

At least according to the DOJ prosecutors that did the investigation and would know

[WhatTheBuck 28825]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

This isn't just conjecture. It's factual record. 

At least according to the DOJ prosecutors that did the investigation and would know

How did that not make it into Mueller’s report?

[Captainant 27970]

6 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

How did that not make it into Mueller’s report?

It almost like our government uses kid gloves with fascists and authoritarians, or something. 

[atomheartbevo 90041]

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33917]

we're at war?

[bolverk 29807]

The whole Flynn clan seems fucked up. So we all know about Michael Flynn. Then we have his brother Charles Flynn who played a role in not sending in the National Guard to defend the capitol. Now we have a third brother, Joe Flynn:

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33917]

guess this goes here.

 

[Chad Fuck 17839]

38 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

guess this goes here.

 

I gotta say, that camera work - slowly working along the line to catch the hottie on the left, then moving to the line knowing that hottie is going to be walking back through frame - that's the work of a man knows how to plausibly deny eyeballing hotties.  

Edited April 23, 2023 by Chad Fuck

[Sawbonz 27776]

56 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

guess this goes here.

 

To prevent theft 

 

[Dnaguy 12327]

1 hour ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

guess this goes here.

 

[Hornius Emeritus 12496]

The best thing I've ever read about this war.  Unbelievably great.  Warning to @G650 : it's long. You might want to sit it out.  😉

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/06/counteroffensive-ukraine-zelensky-crimea/673781/

[G650 14301]

2 minutes ago, Hornius Emeritus said:

The best thing I've ever read about this war.  Unbelievably great.  Warning to @G650 : it's long. You might want to sit it out.  😉

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/06/counteroffensive-ukraine-zelensky-crimea/673781/

And it's in The Atlantic, where it should be, and I happen to subscribe to.

[The Dog 44180]

 

[bolverk 29807]

1 hour ago, The Dog said:

 

Marjorie Traitor Greene's not gonna like that.

[kevwun 15943]

He can say stuff like that when he doesn't have to worry about Tucker eviscerating him tonight on Fox.

[atomheartbevo 90041]

1 hour ago, bolverk said:

Marjorie Traitor Greene's not gonna like that.

Tucker's not on Fox anymore though.

[bolverk 29807]

1 hour ago, kevwun said:

He can say stuff like that when he doesn't have to worry about Tucker eviscerating him tonight on Fox.

 

6 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Tucker's not on Fox anymore though.

 

Yes, but she's stated her opposition to supporting Ukraine many times, and y'all might recall the "deal" that was struck for McCarthy to obtain the speakership was that any single GQP congress critter can call for a vote of "no confidence" (or whatever they called it) in him at any time. The two of them may have now formed a close enough bond that he feels comfortable stating he'll continue to support Ukraine, but he'll always have that hanging over his head, especially with those other holdouts.

[kevwun 15943]

She gives up power if she calls in that vote though.  There are no guarantees she will ever get it back.  They both need each other.

[TwiceHorn 31677]

On 4/11/2023 at 8:33 AM, WhatTheBuck said:

How did that not make it into Mueller’s report?

What if it did? pp. 139-140.

 

[Captainant 27970]

6 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

What if it did? pp. 139-140.

 

Well yes but as we both know since trump wasn't saying that he was doing it for criminal purposes, there's absolutely zero evidence the support any other conclusion 

[atomheartbevo 90041]

4 hours ago, bolverk said:

Yes, but she's stated her opposition to supporting Ukraine many times, and y'all might recall the "deal" that was struck for McCarthy to obtain the speakership was that any single GQP congress critter can call for a vote of "no confidence" (or whatever they called it) in him at any time. The two of them may have now formed a close enough bond that he feels comfortable stating he'll continue to support Ukraine, but he'll always have that hanging over his head, especially with those other holdouts.

I think McCarthy answered that question as forcefully (not that forcefully) as he did because he's seen a shift in the GOP House and yeah, Tucker is not around to make Reps squirm which may contribute to that shift.  Plus I'm sure the defense industry is lobbying the Republicans, and the Dems are pushing for a lot more aid (with more than a few Republicans siding with them) and McCarthy wants to lead things, not let a bunch of Dems and a decent chunk of Republicans walk over him.

4 hours ago, kevwun said:

She gives up power if she calls in that vote though.  There are no guarantees she will ever get it back.  They both need each other.

Yep.  She's got one shot, and if she loses, she's finished, and McCarthy and his followers will push her little group to the side.

[WhatTheBuck 28825]

4 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

What if it did? pp. 139-140.

So it does! Good catch. In my notes from that section I only wrote about Manafort sharing polling data with Kilimnik (and sharing with him info about the battleground states of Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania where an interested foreign entity who wanted to meddle in the election with a campaign of false ads, misinformation, fake Facebook and Twitter accounts, etc. might target their efforts). I guess at the time the insidious nature of Putin’s effort to get Trump to assist him with his takeover of Ukraine wasn’t so obvious.

In light of Trump’s recent comments about how he could’ve prevented Putin’s full scale invasion of Ukraine by ceding parts of the country to him, we have to wonder when he first learned of Putin’s plan.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/fox-news-edits-out-donald-trump-saying-he-mightve-let-russia-take-over-parts-of-ukraine

Maybe he really did know about it back in late 2016 and early 2017 when Manafort and Kilimnik were discussing it. Or maybe it was discussed in one of those private meetings Trump had with Putin or his minions where we have no record of what went on.

Trump’s a fool, of course. Ceding parts of Ukraine wouldn’t stop Putin from trying to seize the whole country. And Trump wouldn’t have done anything to stop him. 

[The Dog 44180]

There have been plenty of Republicans - especially in the Senate - that have been loudly calling for increased aid to Ukraine and are sick of Biden holding back things like F-16s and long range missiles. The problem is people like MTG and her ilk get ratings and clicks so they get all of the airtime. 

And yeah Tucker losing his job helps a bit.

[bolverk 29807]

1 hour ago, The Dog said:

There have been plenty of Republicans - especially in the Senate - that have been loudly calling for increased aid to Ukraine and are sick of Biden holding back things like F-16s and long range missiles. The problem is people like MTG and her ilk get ratings and clicks so they get all of the airtime. 

And yeah Tucker losing his job helps a bit.

No kidding. Here's a pretty thorough thread on shit Tucker has said in opposition to Ukraine.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1653350200176459780.html

 

[Trey3216 15380]

On 4/2/2023 at 9:51 PM, cactusflinthead said:

It is so weird watching this now.

 

I've hung out with his buddy Zamir on several occasions.  Have his phone number in my contact list as well.  Fun dude.  

[cactusflinthead 27615]

 

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20617]

Russian Governor of Belgorod, which is in Russia, says that two anti-Putin RUSSIAN  militias have conducted raids in the region.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/23/ukraine-war-live-updates-latest-news-on-russia-and-the-war-in-ukraine.html

 

[SL Xpress 7518]

1 hour ago, Rimbo said:

slight cloak room

 

I don't like to get too critical of the Obama administration at the time. I was extremely disappointed we didn't support Ukraine more back in 2014, especially since - just like in the Arab Spring countries - there was an implied support from the pro democracy NGOs funded transparently and clandestinely by the US, that repeatedly evaporated when push came to shove, or was misapplied and led to all kinds of unintended consequences. 

But I'm unconvinced a Republican administration would have performed better. I am convinced the Trump administration wasn't better, and would have been far worse post 2022 invasion. But all of that is simply my opinion. Not trying to proselytize. If someone wants to believe the Trump administration handled everything wonderfully have at it. I'm not going to argue it here. 

What I will say is I always loved John McCain. He was butchered by an infamous attack in the South Carolina primary otherwise there's a chance he could have won the election in 2000. He had no real shot in 2008 after Lehman Brothers was allowed to go kaput. I don't know that he had that much interest in domestic affairs, but I always felt he had a tremendous sense of foreign policy - probably because it so often mimicked my personal beliefs. I was grateful to him for the surge in Iraq, regardless of the merit of us being there. It wasn't enough, and I felt it was too late in some regard, and the rest of the philosophy around the occupations led a lot to be desired, but it was absolutely a huge step in the right direction. 

In any case, I miss him. For me he represented many of the best parts of the Republican party. Thanks for posting. Makes me wistful.

[Bevo 13633]

56 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

I don't like to get too critical of the Obama administration at the time. I was extremely disappointed we didn't support Ukraine more back in 2014, especially since - just like in the Arab Spring countries - there was an implied support from the pro democracy NGOs funded transparently and clandestinely by the US, that repeatedly evaporated when push came to shove, or was misapplied and led to all kinds of unintended consequences. 

But I'm unconvinced a Republican administration would have performed better. I am convinced the Trump administration wasn't better, and would have been far worse post 2022 invasion. But all of that is simply my opinion. Not trying to proselytize. If someone wants to believe the Trump administration handled everything wonderfully have at it. I'm not going to argue it here. 

What I will say is I always loved John McCain. He was butchered by an infamous attack in the South Carolina primary otherwise there's a chance he could have won the election in 2000. He had no real shot in 2008 after Lehman Brothers was allowed to go kaput. I don't know that he had that much interest in domestic affairs, but I always felt he had a tremendous sense of foreign policy - probably because it so often mimicked my personal beliefs. I was grateful to him for the surge in Iraq, regardless of the merit of us being there. It wasn't enough, and I felt it was too late in some regard, and the rest of the philosophy around the occupations led a lot to be desired, but it was absolutely a huge step in the right direction. 

In any case, I miss him. For me he represented many of the best parts of the Republican party. Thanks for posting. Makes me wistful.

He was way too pro-War for me. I have always been more pro-military budget but more isolationist. I wouldn't have done Iraq and with Afghanistan I would have used the northern alliance and air and then would have gotten out. No major ground forces. And if we did go in to war, have us do it decisively rather than green zones and nation building.

[SL Xpress 7518]

11 minutes ago, Bevo said:

He was way too pro-War for me. I have always been more pro-military budget but more isolationist. I wouldn't have done Iraq and with Afghanistan I would have used the northern alliance and air and then would have gotten out. No major ground forces. And if we did go in to war, have us do it decisively rather than green zones and nation building.

Yeah, but to me the decisions on both Iraq and Afghanistan ultimately were with the president and his administration. I don’t mind blaming the party for those decisions, but I have a rough time blaming any specific member of Congress - even McCain, as influential as he was in foreign affairs and military matters. 

That doesn’t address what you’re specifically saying because I don’t want to get into the weeds about my views on Iraq and Afghanistan. But I can’t think of any initial efforts utilizing the US military where I put the responsibility for those actions on a member of Congress. The Surge in Iraq is different, because misguided or not (and we were certainly already balls deep in Iraq by that time) that doesn’t happen without McCain pushing so hard for it against a reluctant administration. 

[Bevo 13633]

50 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

Yeah, but to me the decisions on both Iraq and Afghanistan ultimately were with the president and his administration. I don’t mind blaming the party for those decisions, but I have a rough time blaming any specific member of Congress - even McCain, as influential as he was in foreign affairs and military matters. 

That doesn’t address what you’re specifically saying because I don’t want to get into the weeds about my views on Iraq and Afghanistan. But I can’t think of any initial efforts utilizing the US military where I put the responsibility for those actions on a member of Congress. The Surge in Iraq is different, because misguided or not (and we were certainly already balls deep in Iraq by that time) that doesn’t happen without McCain pushing so hard for it against a reluctant administration. 

PM me if you want. Keep it short, though.

[wildcat09 29453]

21 hours ago, Bevo said:

He was way too pro-War for me. I have always been more pro-military budget but more isolationist. I wouldn't have done Iraq and with Afghanistan I would have used the northern alliance and air and then would have gotten out. No major ground forces. And if we did go in to war, have us do it decisively rather than green zones and nation building.

So you want to spend trillions of dollars to build a military you never want used? That makes sense.

[Bevo 13633]

35 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

So you want to spend trillions of dollars to build a military you never want used? That makes sense.

Having a strong military keeps us safe. Going to war usually does not. The phrase is called speak softly and carry a big stick.  It came from Theodore Roosevelt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_stick_ideology

 

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33917]

also pertains to dicks. that might have even been what he meant

now that's a fine way to start a new page!

[cactusflinthead 27615]

Longish thread

 

[956 Worldwide 34908]

Jeffrey Sachs is a real garbage person for lots of reasons and it’s exhausting to have to continually slap down shit that he and other “smart people” have to say about the war. 
 

He’s an economist and expert on sustainable development. Things he isn’t: a Russia scholar, a Ukraine scholar, a speaker of any of the regional languages, a security scholar, a military practitioner, a diplomat, a diplomatic historian, a Cold War expert, an intelligence practitioner. Why the fuck do people who have no frame of reference offered space to bloviate?