Ukraine War

[MaybeACoordinator 8350]

2 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

What is your fucking point with all this shit? I actually really like Russia. It was quite literally my major. I love the fucked up, twisted Russian view on life. It is bleak and beautiful at the same time. None of that changes anything about what is happening in Ukraine or what our response should be. And your nonsense with the UN is non starter unless you can get Putin to agree to it: you can't. 

How do we know? You've fallen in the trap of Putin Clairvoyance. 

[MaybeACoordinator 8350]

3 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

The laws of the UN prevent it. You're a goddamn idiot. 

Look -- why would Russia veto a treaty it signed with Ukraine?

[Guest Lobo]

Just now, MaybeACoordinator said:

How do we know? You've fallen in the trap of Putin Clairvoyance. 

Solid band name.  

[Shaddie 1684]

4 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

The laws of physics do not prevent it; therefore it can be worked around. This would test Putin's stated belief he really just wants a neutral Ukraine. So be it -- let's see. 

Tell us why Putin cares if Ukraine is neutral or not. 
Russia has NUKES. NOBODY is going to invade Russia. Who is doing the invading here? NATO is Putin’s excuse. You know this is true. You know it. 

[956 Worldwide 35598]

15 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

You know what? A cool Russian could say the same about Trump's America. With all the bashing of the Deplorables on here I would think this would be an uncontroversial opinion, but in this context I expect a few negs. So be it. 

Not even sure what this means. I happen to agree that MAGATs should not be coddled, excused, or shielded from consequences.  They need to understand that their methods and ideology are toxic to everyone, including themselves.  The United States needs a normal, norm-following conservative wing and MAGA needs to lose definitely if that’s ever to happen again.

 

Its also worth noting that the majority of American voters rejected Trump twice and successfully removed him after four years and that we gave him an opposition house after two years. And that even under Trump we never invaded a neighbor and just took part of their country. 

[Guest Lobo]

Only reason we didn't invade another country is because maps confuse Trump.  Make him angry.  

Only reason he backed off the Greenland acquisition is Tillerson showed him a picture of a non-mercator Greenland.  Once he realized how small it was, he didn't want it anymore.  He only wants islands that are YUGE! 

Honestly, we dodged so many bullets because the man is actually of average, to even slightly below average, intelligence.  

Edited March 26, 2022 by Lobo

[956 Worldwide 35598]

6 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Look -- why would Russia veto a treaty it signed with Ukraine?

Any treaty with Ukraine that Russia signs is going to be a smooth buttfucking for Ukraine unless it’s a treaty they’re signing with a  seriously weakened and chastened Russia.  That’s the whole fucking problem and it has little to do with NATO.

The absurdity of the Russian position is self-evident if you flip it around and say that Ukraine should have the right to demand reciprocity from Russia.  Why the fuck shouldn’t Ukraine get to tell Russia how big its military should be or tell Russia what political parties are acceptable.  Why can’t Ukraine demand Russia “de-Putinize?”

Edited March 26, 2022 by 956 Worldwide

[Dahobbs 18328]

4 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

How do we know? You've fallen in the trap of Putin Clairvoyance. 

Because he hasn't proposed anything like that as acceptable? Go ahead, float this on your Russian propaganda sites. I guarantee you UN troops in Ukraine would be viewed as an excuse to put NATO troops (cause that's where the UN troops would have to come from) in Ukraine. Even proposing it would be made to seem as an exact of NATO aggression. This isn't clairvoyance. It is the logical extension of what Putin has already said. 

[Shaddie 1684]

Putin isn’t afraid of invasion, he is afraid of democracy on his borders. 

[Captainant 28565]

MAC is doing that thing that redhats do where they ignore reality and instead play in the magical land of hypotheticals where the rules are made up and points don't matter.

It's the basic failing of today's conservative movement. They refuse to engage on the facts and will instead bloviate on nothing but rhetoric and theory.

Btw, for all the cries of negs and being victimized, @MaybeACoordinator sure has gotten literal pages of dialogue and discussion. Must be that cancel culture I hear so much about from MAC and sack and putin

[cactusflinthead 27628]

Disappeared? 

Edited March 26, 2022 by cactusflinthead

[TexArcher 39074]

Fuck Russia and fuck every single American who is brainwashed enough to defend them.  Buncha stupid fucking parrots.

[cactusflinthead 27628]

 

[956 Worldwide 35598]

It’s telling how all of the supposed off-ramps and compromises the no escalation camp throws around boil down to “how much are you willing to be robbed of, Ukraine.”

”Putin no longer wants to sack Kyiv and install a puppet government.  Now he just wants you to give up the East and Crimea and a land bridge and also he wants Ukraine to be defenseless. In exchange he won’t bomb hospitals and libraries.  He’s clearly willing to bargain, why can’t Ukraine accept a deal here!” 

[MaybeACoordinator 8350]

17 minutes ago, Captainant said:

MAC is doing that thing that redhats do where they ignore reality and instead play in the magical land of hypotheticals where the rules are made up and points don't matter.

It's the basic failing of today's conservative movement. They refuse to engage on the facts and will instead bloviate on nothing but rhetoric and theory.

Btw, for all the cries of negs and being victimized, @MaybeACoordinator sure has gotten literal pages of dialogue and discussion. Must be that cancel culture I hear so much about from MAC and sack and putin

Well, maybe you are right about some of your post but I am about the farthest thing from a conservative on this site, and have been even when being a screaming liberal was very uncool in the Hornfans days. I guess you are better at reading Putin's mind than you are mine.

[wildcat09 29593]

2 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Well, maybe you are right about some of your post but I am about the farthest thing from a conservative on this site, and have been even when being a screaming liberal was very uncool in the Hornfans days. I guess you are better at reading Putin's mind than you are mine.

You keep saying you’re the farthest thing from a conservative and then expressing very conservative foreign policy takes. Cmon man, just try it once. “All empire bad.” See how that feels.

[jimmyjazz 47221]

What if Zelenskyy just asked Putin to stop the invasion?  Maybe start with "please" or even "pretty please"?

We won't know if it would work if he never tries.

[Brisketexan 106929]

You've got a kid in Germany. Mine is in ready reserve. Your kid can fly home at will. Uncle Sam can call my kid up at will. We have different stakes in this game and it shows.

Do we?
Mine is fighting age. With an outsize sense of duty and compassion, and he’s an adult and I can’t stop him from joining. I had to actively convince him not to go to the border of a war zone (he was aiming to go help refugees, not fight, but a Russian missile don’t GAF). And if the fight expands quickly, he may not have a choice; we already talked about hauling ass to the underground station if he hears the air raid siren.
But you’re taking this far afield. NATO is not putting boots on the ground. That is not how we are playing this.
And further, this planet ain’t about you or me, or our sons. It’s about a shitload more than that. If a people have any means of fighting off an invader, they can and should do so. Capitulating because other people are afraid they will end up getting hurt in the fight is insane and irrational. “We should surrender half of our country to Russia because America is afraid that Putin might do something to attack them.” That makes zero sense. I wouldn’t do it. You wouldn’t. Our sons wouldn’t.

[Sawbonz 28230]

11 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

If you are not even interested in seeing what Russians are saying -- including some dissent -- you brains are fried. You are afflicted with war fever. And where was your outrage over dead Iraqi children? 

Wtf is wrong with you

[Dahobbs 18328]

4 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Wtf is wrong with you

Quite a bit it turns out

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

38 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It’s telling how all of the supposed off-ramps and compromises the no escalation camp throws around boil down to “how much are you willing to be robbed of, Ukraine.”

”Putin no longer wants to sack Kyiv and install a puppet government.  Now he just wants you to give up the East and Crimea and a land bridge and also he wants Ukraine to be defenseless. In exchange he won’t bomb hospitals and libraries.  He’s clearly willing to bargain, why can’t Ukraine accept a deal here!” 

Of course it is telling. We see how this type of deal works out....

Article XI. A perpetual alliance offensive and defensive is to be entered into as soon as may be with the Six Nations; their Limits to be ascertained and secured to them; their Land not to be encroached on, nor any private or Colony Purchases made of them hereafter to be held good, nor any Contract for Lands to be made but between the Great Council of the Indians at Onondaga and the General Congress. The Boundaries and Lands of all the other Indians shall also be ascertained and secured to them in the same manner; and Persons appointed to reside among them in proper Districts, who shall take care to prevent Injustice in the Trade with them, and be enabled at our general Expense by occasional small Supplies, to relieve their personal Wants and Distresses. And all Purchases from them shall be by the Congress for the General Advantage and Benefit of the United Colonies. --Benjamin Franklin, 1775

In this way our settlements will gradually circumbscribe [sic] & approach the Indians, & they will in time either incorporate with us as citizens of the US. or remove beyond the Missisipi.The former is certainly the termination of their history most happy for themselves. But in the whole course of this, it is essential to cultivate their love. As to their fear, we presume that our strength & their weakness is now so visible that they must see we have only to shut our hand to crush them.--Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Henry Harrison, 1803

And lastly:

“There is a certain kind of person who, from many years of being bullied, becomes convinced that bullies run the world, and that if they run the world they must have a right to run the world, and that if they have a right to run the world they must be running it as it is supposed to run.” --S.E. Grove, The Golden Specific

[Brisketexan 106929]

You know what? A cool Russian could say the same about Trump's America. With all the bashing of the Deplorables on here I would think this would be an uncontroversial opinion, but in this context I expect a few negs. So be it. 

Hey….maybe you remember me referring to our American descent into madness and cruelty (the MAGA years…maybe still ongoing), and saying “we get what we deserve?” We are not immune to this calculus, nor should we.
Nations…”good” nations full of “good” people… can descend into cruelty and folly. It happened in Germany. We’re still trying to make it happen here (MAGA insanity ain’t gone). It has happened in Russia.
If my country embarked on something as cruel and deranged as Putin’s rape of Ukraine tomorrow, I would hope that we suffered serious pain in response, because that is the only thing left to get our attention and turn away from horrific autocracy. When the cancer is bad enough, the only cure is brutal chemo.
In all of this, your complete disregard for 40 million Ukrainians and their desires and voice in this matter (they are willing to fight and die with molotovs and rifles, if need be) is where you fail. Putin fucked up. He attacked a people who give a fuck. Now he is finding out. Lots of people will die while he does so.

[Thatguy 9371]

2 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

The laws of physics do not prevent it; therefore it can be worked around. This would test Putin's stated belief he really just wants a neutral Ukraine. So be it -- let's see. 

  What would your version of that agreement look like? For shits and giggles

[Sawbonz 28230]

Hey guys can’t you just consider it from the rapist’s point of view for a moment? He’s a human being after all and we don’t know what he’s been going through. Maybe just let him finish up. It’s not you or me he’s raping. He might even agree not to do it again, and we should take his word for it in that case

[Neonmoon 38130]

The “neutral Ukraine” argument is the dumbest version of “just sit back and take it” propaganda

There are two sides, but it’s not Russia v NATO. It is Sovereign Nation v Controlled by Russia. So there is no neutrality position, either they are a sovereign nation and can do whatever the fuck they want, or their national policies are dictated by Russia. This mythical place where Ukraine doesn’t join NATO or doesn’t join Russia doesn’t fucking exist and it’s a reframing of reality. Agreeing to not have an army or Russia will invade again isn’t a neutral fucking country, that is a country under control. Sweet Jesus 

 

[Dahobbs 18328]

11 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

The “neutral Ukraine” argument is the dumbest version of “just sit back and take it” propaganda

There are two sides, but it’s not Russia v NATO. It is Sovereign Nation v Controlled by Russia. So there is no neutrality position, either they are a sovereign nation and can do whatever the fuck they want, or their national policies are dictated by Russia. This mythical place where Ukraine doesn’t join NATO or doesn’t join Russia doesn’t fucking exist and it’s a reframing of reality. Agreeing to not have an army or Russia will invade again isn’t a neutral fucking country, that is a country under control. Sweet Jesus 

 

And, again, as soon as Ukraine agrees not to have an army, Putin would just send in his forces under the guise of a police action just as he has done, but obviously with less resistance.  

[Sawbonz 28230]

It is clear to anyone with half a brain that Putin is going to do exactly as much as he is allowed to do. He will take all of Ukraine and then set his sights on the next former Soviet republic he thinks he can take back into the fold.

[Royalfan5 2384]

Someone should ask Belgium how agreeing to be neutral can work out for a flattish strategically located country

[Hefeweizen 5445]

2 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

How do we know? You've fallen in the trap of Putin Clairvoyance. 

I’m thinking this guy may not be debating honestly.

 

in this vein….

[HenryJames 67401]

[Sawbonz 28230]

Looks like a whole lot of Lieutenant Colonels are gonna have to step up for Russia 

[Bama Chick 28596]

You've got a kid in Germany. Mine is in ready reserve. Your kid can fly home at will. Uncle Sam can call my kid up at will. We have different stakes in this game and it shows.

My kid is an active duty Marine and I agree with everyone else about your opinions, Neville Chamberlain.

[WhatTheBuck 28931]

14 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

It is clear to anyone with half a brain that Putin is going to do exactly as much as he is allowed to do. He will take all of Ukraine and then set his sights on the next former Soviet republic he thinks he can take back into the fold.

Lukashenko already gave up the plan that the next target is Moldova.

https://www.thehill.com/policy/international/596409-belarus-president-stands-in-front-of-battle-map-indicating-moldova

[Goredho 17659]

On 3/24/2022 at 6:42 PM, HenryJames said:

 

Trump is going to be President in 2024 and invade the Ukraine from the west, isn’t he?

[WhatTheBuck 28931]

It’d be a shame if Tucker got audited by the IRS. 

[Hagbard Celine 11265]

3 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

That can be worked around, obviously. 

no, it can't

i see 956 has got this one

[Hagbard Celine 11265]

14 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

In the interest of humanity and peace on earth, please watch:

 

 

- the olds give zero fucks

- the  brunette that first appears at 3:04 is totally in my wheelhouse, 10 for me

- the blond is also smoking hot (first appears at 0:10)

- the situation there is just like it is here: 37% live in a different simulation

- when putin is deposed, and russia is allowed back in to the world economy, i should buy a mcdonald's franchise in russia

[Hagbard Celine 11265]

3 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

The laws of physics do not prevent it; therefore it can be worked around. This would test Putin's stated belief he really just wants a neutral Ukraine. So be it -- let's see. 

dude.

 

you carry the flag of phoebe's tits on this board.

 

you have an important duty to deliver quailty, rational content that honor's brad's orgasm, and the quadrillion free swimmers that followed around the world.

 

if you must insist on dying on this hill, we must remand you and request you surrender your avatar until such time as you have rejoined The Ledge segment of the simulation (TM CR Brisket 2017)

[cactusflinthead 27628]

 

[Hagbard Celine 11265]

3 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Why the fuck shouldn’t Ukraine get to tell Russia how big its military should be or tell Russia what political parties are acceptable.  Why can’t Ukraine demand Russia “de-Putinize?”

given an infinite supply of 21st century tech from the west and enough willing bodies, they will attrition the russian military indefinitely, and every vehicle and soldier putin loses will be difficult to replace.   this isn't 1943.   putin doesn't have 10000 tanks, 3000 fighters and 20 million infantry to throw at the problem.

[cactusflinthead 27628]

21 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

this isn't 1943.   putin doesn't have 10000 tanks, 3000 fighters and 20 million infantry to throw at the problem

About those tanks and all that stuff in conservation. From Miller's posts r/ukraine

"In general, the Russian Federation often faces the problem of the impossibility of restoring equipment after "deconservation" from warehouses. Optical devices and electronics containing precious metals were completely stolen from the combat vehicles.

In particular, the 4th Panzer Division of the Russian Federation found out that out of 10 "canned" tanks, only one is in a more or less operational condition. The rest are completely dismantled. Some of them do not even have engines. At present, plans to transfer equipment taken from storage to the front have actually been thwarted.

According to available information - the commander of the 13th tank regiment of the 4th tank division of the Russian Federation - shot himself."

None of that is confirmed but it's certainly plausible. I've seen no indications that they are able to field a quarter of what they claim to have in reserve. 

[TexArcher 39074]

1 hour ago, Neonmoon said:

The “neutral Ukraine” argument is the dumbest version of “just sit back and take it” propaganda

This.

There's an amazing irony in Americans suggesting that Ukraine ought to be satisfied with forced neutrality or a limited military to appease an aggressive neighbor when not a single one of us, left or right, would listen to such bullshit for one second if it were pointed at America.

[jimmyjazz 47221]

6 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

This.

There's an amazing irony in Americans suggesting that Ukraine ought to be satisfied with forced neutrality or a limited military to appease an aggressive neighbor when not a single one of us, left or right, would listen to such bullshit for one second if it were pointed at America.

Well, it's important that we cast Biden's efforts as less than effective, regardless of what tack he takes.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19307]

So I have not been around much the last few days as work has been insane.  Just catching up on this thread, and it seems like we have @MaybeACoordinator and @bangkok garbling Putin's balls.  Do I have that right?

[bangkok 89]

10 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

given an infinite supply of 21st century tech from the west and enough willing bodies, they will attrition the russian military indefinitely, and every vehicle and soldier putin loses will be difficult to replace.   this isn't 1943.   putin doesn't have 10000 tanks, 3000 fighters and 20 million infantry to throw at the problem.

true.

but he does have conceptions and intentions of restoring soviet-era territories and re-establishing russia as country you don't fuck with directly, like the cold war.

and he's not getting any younger, so his political ambitions are sort of now or never. 

a weakened russia strengthens the west and encourages democracy and of course thats a good thing for us.

i also think this isn't necessarily an end all, be all moment - we can and should encourage a delay here, a stalemate. support our interests after the violence.

and yes i think ukraine would be willing to embrace that, while also understanding they have their own ambitions and deserve their own opportunities to shape the future of the country as they see fit, democratically. all good.

so can we make putin walk, give him what he wants right now - as what he's stated is pure propaganda, so call him on it, call the bluff.

what he's stated is clearly not reality and demonstrative of his intentions.

maybe he's killed or politically deemed not in russia's best interest (economically).. let it ride.

don't risk escalation over this, as tempting as that is - that's what he wants. don't give him that option.

our policy should be ok dude, clearly you fucked up. go home and we'll give you an out.

and yea if it's an escalation where tactical nukes are deployed, it should be an immediate no-fly zone enforced by nato.

let the motherfucker have an opportunity to call his shot but lay out the options first.

and be prepared to respond either way.

peace deserves every opportunity first though.

[Pescado_Rojo 19590]

14 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

About those tanks and all that stuff in conservation. From Miller's posts r/ukraine

"In general, the Russian Federation often faces the problem of the impossibility of restoring equipment after "deconservation" from warehouses. Optical devices and electronics containing precious metals were completely stolen from the combat vehicles.

In particular, the 4th Panzer Division of the Russian Federation found out that out of 10 "canned" tanks, only one is in a more or less operational condition. The rest are completely dismantled. Some of them do not even have engines. At present, plans to transfer equipment taken from storage to the front have actually been thwarted.

According to available information - the commander of the 13th tank regiment of the 4th tank division of the Russian Federation - shot himself."

None of that is confirmed but it's certainly plausible. I've seen no indications that they are able to field a quarter of what they claim to have in reserve. 

Shocking in a kleptocracy like Russia. 

[jimmyjazz 47221]

3 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

So I have not been around much the last few days as work has been insane.  Just catching up on this thread, and it seems like we have @MaybeACoordinator and @bangkok garbling Putin's balls.  Do I have that right?

*gargling

But yes.  Just remember, Maybe is a liberal.

[Hagbard Celine 11265]

1 Jan 44

[bangkok 89]

1 minute ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

So I have not been around much the last few days as work has been insane.  Just catching up on this thread, and it seems like we have @MaybeACoordinator and @bangkok garbling Putin's balls.  Do I have that right?

i'm about as anti-war as one may be, and i also try to look at all sides of an issue.

i'm a skeptic. i've never voted.

i think we see a ton of misinformation, propaganda from all angles.

i hate the political climate of the states, which is part of why i live in bangkok.

i want to know what conservatives are spouting on an issue, and same with progressives.. i try to look at multiple news sources and opinions.

that said, trump was a horrible president, and his presidency influences putins actions today.

i don't typically take sides.. i try to look at all angles, everything's a grey area for me. what one person benefits from, another suffers..

no one's right, and everyone has their own agenda.

i'm hoping we pursue a peaceful agenda and can take a longer-term view of that while flexing our military, economic, and political muscles to encourage peace.

[Scheiss Meister 8472]

28 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

So I have not been around much the last few days as work has been insane.  Just catching up on this thread, and it seems like we have @MaybeACoordinator and @bangkok garbling Putin's balls.  Do I have that right?

I think that they see themselves as prioritizing peace by any means, no matter what the short term or long term costs to Ukraine and Russia's next targets.  I also think that they are uncomfortable applying ethical judgements to Russian actions.

ETA - didn't see the post above before I sent.  There it is.

Edited March 26, 2022 by Scheiss Meister