Ukraine War

[WhatTheBuck 28703]

2 hours ago, Gatorubet said:

 

“The Orcs have bombed the city and taken the Mariopol Zoo…I’m thinking let’s wait for the US to direct our response.”

They’ve got Orcs? Golly. 

[Gatorubet 30083]

Hey guys, I'm not here to do ___________. Now, let me go ahead and do that. His point is stupid. So is yours. I doubt you'll find a bunch of defenders of our war Vietnam here. 

I remember how those who served in Nam were treated so well by the public upon their return, who had nary a complaint about the war’s conduct - or linked war crimes or immoral conduct to that war.

And my liberal anti-war older brother and his friends who served their 15 year sentences for criticizing the war (that LBJ created by executive order). Good points all.

[Gatorubet 30083]

They’ve got Orcs? Golly. 

Why do you think they storing dead people in wells??? We know they have no provisions after a month.

[JimmyJames 12271]

3 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Basically I'd like people to try to disconnect from the emotional imagery and the pure uncut dope of Ukrainian propaganda and think logically about this. Poland and a large swath of Ukrainians DGAF if this results in WW3. They hate the Russians that much. 

I agree with Brisket's contention that bloodying the Russians' noses is good leverage at the peace table. But there's a fine line between providing for leverage and becoming a hostile combatant, and I fear far too many of y'all are willing to cross that line without a thought in your heads. Damn fool thing in the Balkans logic, and now that the atrocity stories are coming in, and can be presented in a way they never have been before, it's ever more intoxicating...Just remember -- the Ukrainians are just as capable of committing war crimes as the Russians. Maybe more so, because they are defending their land, and I'd be less willing to obey the Geneva Convention in some foreign country than I would in front of my house. We've seen how sadistic they can get with the soldiers taunting the parents of dead Russians on their cellphones. It's understandable but it's horrible. War is hell. 

And the dude found dead with his hands bound and shot in the mouth sounds like a reprisal on an informer to me. Not that there is anything strange about that in a country that has been invaded. Which is why we need a UN investigation of what happened before we accept every word of the Ukrainian gov't as gospel truth. 

As for the idea Putin simply wants to exterminate Ukrainians by the millions, well, then why hasn't he? He could have done that by simply launching thermobaric missiles from Russia straight at population centers. Again, Mearsheimer said it eight years ago -- he knows he can't occupy Ukraine so he wants to break it. And he has broken it, and so he's pulling back.

This is exactly how things played out in Georgia. We egged them on. Russia went down there and smacked them in the mouth. They appealed to us for more helo than we were willing to give. So either we are willing to get in this thing whole hog or we've just led another country into a proxy war costing tremendous loss of life and devastation while we reap more defense contracts and inflate our military budget. 

There’s no way anybody is really this fucking dumb that can type so much. This is straight up trolling at this point. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

2 hours ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

I don't want to get involved in whataboutism and I'm not here to defend Maybe a Coordinator, but all of you who are condemning his takes would be well-served to read "Anything that Moves"  by Nick Turse or at least listen to the interview with him on NPR's Fresh Air:


https://www.npr.org/2013/01/28/169076259/anything-that-moves-civilians-and-the-vietnam-war

Trump is stupid and immoral and --- as I've made abundantly clear on countless occasions ----- I hate him with the white hot intensity of ten thousand suns, but he hit on something very real when he asked "you think we're so innocent?" We're not. Within my lifetime we did the same thing that we're accusing the Russians of in Ukraine only on a much larger scale.  The U.S. military incentivized high body counts and it didn't matter whether those bodies belonged to combatants or civilians.  

 

God damn you Walter! You fuckin' asshole! Everything's a fuckin' travesty with you, man! And what was all that shit about Vietnam? What the FUCK, has anything got to do with Vietnam? What the fuck are you talking about?

[Guest Lobo]

1 hour ago, Hornius Emeritus said:

 

While I can't fault the quarter million scientists fleeing Russia for personal/professional reasons...that's a dangerous cocktail.  A country already ripe to keep autocrats just getting stupider and stupider by the day.  When the full effects of what could be a million educated leaders in their field having left the country are realized in a decade.  And Putin's dead.  The next asshat they elect could make Putin look tame by comparison.  

Thank goodness this couldn't happen in the United States.  

[JimmyJames 12271]

The focus of some posters on America in the past instead of what is happening now in Ukraine is very telling about them. Basically they are being pieces of shit.

[freyguy 4245]

2 hours ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

I don't want to get involved in whataboutism and I'm not here to defend Maybe a Coordinator, but all of you who are condemning his takes would be well-served to read "Anything that Moves"  by Nick Turse or at least listen to the interview with him on NPR's Fresh Air:


https://www.npr.org/2013/01/28/169076259/anything-that-moves-civilians-and-the-vietnam-war

Trump is stupid and immoral and --- as I've made abundantly clear on countless occasions ----- I hate him with the white hot intensity of ten thousand suns, but he hit on something very real when he asked "you think we're so innocent?" We're not. Within my lifetime we did the same thing that we're accusing the Russians of in Ukraine only on a much larger scale.  The U.S. military incentivized high body counts and it didn't matter whether those bodies belonged to combatants or civilians.  

 

 

[WhatTheBuck 28703]

24 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

God damn you Walter! You fuckin' asshole! Everything's a fuckin' travesty with you, man! And what was all that shit about Vietnam? What the FUCK, has anything got to do with Vietnam? What the fuck are you talking about?

It’s funny when people incapable of logical thought talk about thinking logically. 

[Huckleberry 32694]

2 hours ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

I don't want to get involved in whataboutism and I'm not here to defend Maybe a Coordinator, but all of you who are condemning his takes would be well-served to read "Anything that Moves"  by Nick Turse or at least listen to the interview with him on NPR's Fresh Air:


https://www.npr.org/2013/01/28/169076259/anything-that-moves-civilians-and-the-vietnam-war

Trump is stupid and immoral and --- as I've made abundantly clear on countless occasions ----- I hate him with the white hot intensity of ten thousand suns, but he hit on something very real when he asked "you think we're so innocent?" We're not. Within my lifetime we did the same thing that we're accusing the Russians of in Ukraine only on a much larger scale.  The U.S. military incentivized high body counts and it didn't matter whether those bodies belonged to combatants or civilians.  

 

No shit. What does that have to do with this thread? This entire line of argument is also completely contradictory and asinine. 

"When the USA did and does these same things they were and are horrific. So let's not focus on what Russia is doing."

How does that make sense? Yes, our involvement in the Vietnam atrocities in the past and the Yemen atrocities in the present is horrific and we should be ashamed. So we should ignore other atrocities? What's the end you're hoping for by diverting the attention of this thread? 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Huckleberry

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

3 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

I see. Your point is proved by the below. I lacked more context of this argument. 

Uncut dope of photographs and foreign journalists present at many of the scenes?

I don't know that you can commit a war crime against someone slaughtering your civilian friends, neighbors and family. Ukraine made a point of treating Russian captive soldiers humanely. 

 

We don't know any of this. And on several occasions on this board posters have urged them to take no prisoners. We do know that on several occasions the Ukes committed the (mild, bullshit, ticky tack) war crime of putting POWs on TV to discourage others to fight. On one other occasion they committed the flagrant technical of showing the Ukrainian soldier taunting the mother of a dead Russian soldier on his confiscated cellphone. 

I don't believe 98 percent of the official Russian bluster about the conduct of this war. I also don't believe at least some of the things the Ukrainian gov't and armed forces are saying about the conduct of this war. Everybody knows they've issued some patent bullshit since the days of the Ghost of Kiev but every day all o' y'all again continue to believe every single dispatch their media issues. The other day it was how the Russians had allegedly deported 500000 Ukrainians to camps in Russia. Come on y'all. Think about the logistics of that. 

 

12 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

The focus of some posters on America in the past instead of what is happening now in Ukraine is very telling about them. Basically they are being pieces of shit.

Well, we nearly ended drone strikes before this all broke loose, so there is that. For four of five whole months our missiles weren't being launched at someone, somewhere. And here we are in another proxy war with our arms manufacturers making a fortune while we sit it out.

 

You know, at the end of this I will be very surprised if the Ukrainians and Poles don't end up hating us. Unless we join in, like we sort of implied we would. And I am not sure how many of you are still opposed to American boots on the ground over there now. I imagine a lot more than a week ago and that the number will grow for the next couple of weeks, no matter how hard I try to reason for peace. In the meantime I am cast in the position of appearing to endorse war crimes. This is untenable and so I will bow out and you can have your second echo chamber back, as if one was not enough. 

[Dahobbs 17420]

1 minute ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

We don't know any of this. And on several occasions on this board posters have urged them to take no prisoners. We do know that on several occasions the Ukes committed the (mild, bullshit, ticky tack) war crime of putting POWs on TV to discourage others to fight. On one other occasion they committed the flagrant technical of showing the Ukrainian soldier taunting the mother of a dead Russian soldier on his confiscated cellphone. 

I don't believe 98 percent of the official Russian bluster about the conduct of this war. I also don't believe at least some of the things the Ukrainian gov't and armed forces are saying about the conduct of this war. Everybody knows they've issued some patent bullshit since the days of the Ghost of Kiev but every day all o' y'all again continue to believe every single dispatch their media issues. The other day it was how the Russians had allegedly deported 500000 Ukrainians to camps in Russia. Come on y'all. Think about the logistics of that. 

 

Well, we nearly ended drone strikes before this all broke loose, so there is that. For four of five whole months our missiles weren't being launched at someone, somewhere. And here we are in another proxy war with our arms manufacturers making a fortune while we sit it out.

 

You know, at the end of this I will be very surprised if the Ukrainians and Poles don't end up hating us. Unless we join in, like we sort of implied we would. And I am not sure how many of you are still opposed to American boots on the ground over there now. I imagine a lot more than a week ago and that the number will grow for the next couple of weeks, no matter how hard I try to reason for peace. In the meantime I am cast in the position of appearing to endorse war crimes. This is untenable and so I will bow out and you can have your second echo chamber back, as if one was not enough. 

Seriously, you're a piece of shit. Fucking mass graves of UK citizens and you're still acting like Ukraine is only fighting because of us. Go to Ukraine and tell that to the people there. I'm pretty sure you'd end up in one of those graves. 

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20342]

4 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

No shit. What does that have to do with this thread? This entire line of argument is also completely contradictory and asinine. 

"When the USA did and does these same things they were and are horrific. So let's not focus on what Russia is doing."

 

Your ability to read into my comment that which you want to read is extraordinary. I did not say that we shouldn't focus on what Russia is doing.  All one has to do is see my countless other posts on this very thread that belie that idea to grasp that.

Is it possible that a) Russia and Putin are doing evil, horrific things in Ukraine 2) The U.S. has done evil, horrific things in the recent past?


 

[Dahobbs 17420]

9 minutes ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

Your ability to read into my comment that which you want to read is extraordinary. I did not say that we shouldn't focus on what Russia is doing.  All one has to do is see my countless other posts on this very thread that belie that idea to grasp that.

Is it possible that a) Russia and Putin are doing evil, horrific things in Ukraine 2) The U.S. has done evil, horrific things in the recent past?


 

Again, why are you putting that in this thread? What point does it serve? 

[bolverk 29394]

Cross posting from the other thread, because I think it's important to get an unfiltered view of what's being read by domestic Russian audiences in their own state media about the motivations for invading Ukraine.

 

Total pain in the ass, but I put the entire article through the Google Translation machine. Full copypasta in the spoiler with a little bit about the author added in italics. The article appears in RIA Novosti, a state-owned news agency.

Btw, learned a new word: lustration (purification).

 

Spoiler

What should Russia do with Ukraine?
Timofey Sergeytsev
Methodologist, philosopher, member of Rossiya Segodnya’s Zinoviev Club, co-founder of the Archive of the Moscow Methodological Club Foundation, research adviser of the Zinoviev International Research and Education Centre at the Department of Global Processes, Moscow State University
Zinovyev Club is a platform for expertise and analysis, created by the Zinovyev Biographical Institute together with the Rossiya Segodnya News Agency.
 

Back in April last year, we wrote about the inevitability of the denazification of Ukraine. Nazi, Bandera Ukraine, the enemy of Russia and the West's tool for the destruction of Russia, we do not need. Today, the issue of denazification has moved into a practical plane.
Denazification is necessary when a significant part of the people - most likely the majority - has been mastered and drawn into the Nazi regime in its politics. That is, when the hypothesis "the people are good - the government is bad" does not work. Recognition of this fact is the basis of the policy of denazification, of all its measures, and the fact itself is its subject matter.
Ukraine is in just such a situation. The fact that the Ukrainian voter voted for the "peace of Poroshenko" and "peace of Zelensky" should not be misleading - the Ukrainians were quite satisfied with the shortest path to peace through the blitzkrieg, which the last two Ukrainian presidents transparently hinted at when they were elected. It was this method of "appeasement" of internal anti-fascists - through total terror - that was used in Odessa, Kharkov, Dnepropetrovsk, Mariupol, and other Russian cities. And this quite suited the Ukrainian man in the street. Denazification is a set of measures in relation to the nazified mass of the population, which technically cannot be subjected to direct punishment as war criminals.
The Nazis who took up arms should be destroyed to the maximum on the battlefield. There should be no significant differences between the Armed Forces of Ukraine and the so-called national battalions, as well as the territorial defense that joined these two types of military formations. All of them are equally involved in extreme cruelty against the civilian population, equally guilty of the genocide of the Russian people, do not comply with the laws and customs of war. War criminals and active Nazis should be exemplarily and exponentially punished. There must be a total lustration (purification). Any organizations that have associated themselves with the practice of Nazism have been liquidated and banned. However, in addition to the top, a significant part of the masses, which are passive Nazis, accomplices of Nazism, are also guilty. They supported and indulged Nazi power. The just punishment of this part of the population is possible only as bearing the inevitable hardships of a just war against the Nazi system, waged as carefully and prudently as possible in relation to civilians. Further denazification of this mass of the population consists in re-education, which is achieved by ideological repression (suppression) of Nazi attitudes and strict censorship: not only in the political sphere, but also necessarily in the sphere of culture and education. It was through culture and education that a deep mass nazification of the population was prepared and carried out, secured by the promise of dividends from the victory of the Nazi regime over Russia, Nazi propaganda, internal violence and terror, as well as the eight-year war with the people of Donbass who rebelled against Ukrainian Nazism.
Denazification can only be carried out by the winner, which implies (1) his absolute control over the denazification process and (2) the power to ensure such control. In this respect, a denazified country cannot be sovereign. The denazifying state - Russia - cannot proceed from a liberal approach with regard to denazification. The ideology of the denazifier cannot be disputed by the guilty party subjected to denazification. Russia's recognition of the need to denazify Ukraine means the recognition of the impossibility of the Crimean scenario for Ukraine as a whole. However, this scenario was impossible in 2014 and in the rebellious Donbass. Only eight years of resistance to Nazi violence and terror led to internal cohesion and a conscious unambiguous mass refusal to maintain any unity and connection with Ukraine, which defined itself as a Nazi society.
The terms of denazification can in no way be less than one generation, which must be born, grow up and reach maturity under the conditions of denazification. The nazification of Ukraine continued for more than 30 years, beginning at least in 1989, when Ukrainian nationalism received legal and legitimate forms of political expression and led the movement for "independence" towards Nazism.
The peculiarity of modern nazified Ukraine is in amorphousness and ambivalence, which allow Nazism to be disguised as a desire for "independence" and a "European" (Western, pro-American) path of "development" (in reality - to degradation), to assert that in Ukraine "there is no Nazism , only private individual excesses". After all, there is no main Nazi party, no Fuhrer, no full-fledged racial laws (only their truncated version in the form of repressions against the Russian language). As a result, there is no opposition and resistance to the regime.
However, all of the above does not make Ukrainian Nazism a "light version" of German Nazism during the first half of the 20th century. On the contrary, since Ukrainian Nazism is free from such "genre" (essentially political technology) frameworks and restrictions, it freely unfolds as the fundamental basis of any Nazism - as European and, in its most developed form, American racism. Therefore, denazification cannot be carried out in a compromise, on the basis of a formula like "NATO - no, EU - yes." The collective West itself is the designer, source and sponsor of Ukrainian Nazism, while the Western Bandera cadres and their "historical memory" are only one of the tools for the Naziification of Ukraine. Ukronazism carries not less, but a greater threat to the world and Russia than German Nazism of the Hitlerite version.
The name "Ukraine" apparently cannot be retained as the title of any fully denazified state entity in a territory liberated from the Nazi regime. The people's republics newly created in the space free from Nazism should and will grow from the practice of economic self-government and social security, restoration and modernization of the life support systems of the population.
In fact, their political aspirations cannot be neutral - expiation of guilt before Russia for treating it as an enemy can be realized only by relying on Russia in the processes of restoration, revival and development. No "Marshall Plans" should be allowed for these territories. There can be no "neutrality" in the ideological and practical sense, compatible with denazification. The cadres and organizations that are the instrument of denazification in the newly denazified republics cannot but rely on Russia's direct military and organizational support.
Denazification will inevitably also be a de-Ukrainization - a rejection of the large-scale artificial inflation of the ethnic component of self-identification of the population of the territories of historical Little Russia and New Russia, begun by the Soviet authorities. Being an instrument of the communist superpower, after its fall, artificial ethnocentrism did not remain ownerless. In this official capacity, he passed under the authority of another superpower (the power standing over the states) — the superpower of the West. It must be returned to its natural boundaries and deprived of political functionality.
Unlike, say, Georgia and the Baltic countries, Ukraine, as history has shown, is impossible as a nation state, and attempts to "build" one naturally lead to Nazism. Ukrainism is an artificial anti-Russian construction that does not have its own civilizational content, a subordinate element of an alien and alien civilization. Debanderization by itself will not be enough for denazification - the Bandera element is only a performer and a screen, a disguise for the European project of Nazi Ukraine, therefore the denazification of Ukraine is also its inevitable de-Europeanization.
The Bandera elite must be liquidated, its re-education is impossible. The social "bog", which actively and passively supported it by action and inaction, must survive the hardships of the war and assimilate the experience as a historical lesson and atonement for its guilt. Those who did not support the Nazi regime, suffered from it and the war unleashed by him in the Donbass, must be consolidated and organized, must become the pillar of the new government, its vertical and horizontal. Historical experience shows that the tragedies and dramas of wartime benefit peoples who have been tempted and carried away by the role of an enemy of Russia.
Denazification as the goal of a special military operation within the framework of this operation itself is understood as a military victory over the Kiev regime, the liberation of territories from armed supporters of the Nazis, the elimination of implacable Nazis, the capture of war criminals, and the creation of systemic conditions for the subsequent denazification in peacetime.
The latter, in turn, should begin with the organization of local self-government, police and defense bodies, cleansed of Nazi elements, launching on their basis the founding processes of founding a new republican statehood, integrating this statehood into close cooperation with the Russian department for the denazification of Ukraine (newly created or remade, say, from Rossotrudnichestvo), from the adoption under Russian control of the republican regulatory framework (legislation) on denazification, the definition of the boundaries and framework for the direct application of Russian law and Russian jurisdiction in the liberated territory in the field of denazification, the creation of a tribunal for crimes against humanity in the former Ukraine. In this regard, Russia should act as the guardian of the Nuremberg Trials.
All of the above means that in order to achieve the goals of denazification, the support of the population is necessary, its transition to the side of Russia after liberation from terror, violence and ideological pressure of the Kiev regime, after the withdrawal from informational isolation. Of course, it will take some time for people to recover from the shock of hostilities, to be convinced of Russia's long-term intentions - that "they will not be abandoned." It is impossible to foresee in advance exactly in which territories such a mass of the population will constitute a critically needed majority. The "Catholic province" (Western Ukraine as part of five regions) is unlikely to become part of the pro-Russian territories. The line of alienation, however, will be found empirically. It will remain hostile to Russia, but forcibly neutral and demilitarized Ukraine with formally banned Nazism. The haters of Russia will go there. The guarantee of the preservation of this residual Ukraine in a neutral state should be the threat of an immediate continuation of the military operation in case of non-compliance with the listed requirements. Perhaps this will require a permanent Russian military presence on its territory. From the exclusion line to the Russian border there will be a territory of potential integration into Russian civilization, which is anti-fascist in its internal nature.
The operation to denazify Ukraine, which began with a military phase, will follow the same logic of stages in peacetime as a military operation. At each of them, it will be necessary to achieve irreversible changes, which will become the results of the corresponding stage. In this case, the necessary initial steps of denazification can be defined as follows:

• liquidation of armed Nazi formations (which means any armed formations of Ukraine, including the Armed Forces of Ukraine), as well as the military, informational, educational infrastructure that ensures their activity;
• the formation of public self-government bodies and militia (defense and law enforcement) of the liberated territories, protecting the population from the terror of underground Nazi groups;
• installation of the Russian information space;
• withdrawal of educational materials and prohibition of educational programs at all levels containing Nazi ideological guidelines;
• mass investigative actions to establish personal responsibility for war crimes, crimes against humanity, the spread of Nazi ideology and support for the Nazi regime;
• lustration (purification), publication of the names of accomplices of the Nazi regime, involving them in forced labor to restore the destroyed infrastructure as punishment for Nazi activities (from among those who will not be subject to the death penalty or imprisonment);
• adoption at the local level, under the supervision of Russia, of primary normative acts of denazification "from below", a ban on all types and forms of the revival of Nazi ideology;
• the establishment of memorials, memorials, monuments to the victims of Ukrainian Nazism, perpetuating the memory of the heroes of the struggle against it;
• the inclusion of a complex of anti-fascist and denazification norms in the constitutions of the new people's republics;
• creation of permanent denazification bodies for a period of 25 years.

Russia will have no allies in the denazification of Ukraine. Since this is a purely Russian business. And also because not just the Bandera version of Nazi Ukraine will be eradicated, but including, and above all, Western totalitarianism, the imposed programs of civilizational degradation and disintegration, the mechanisms of subjugation to the superpower of the West and the United States.
In order to put the plan of denazification of Ukraine into practice, Russia itself will have to finally part with pro-European and pro-Western illusions, realize itself as the last instance of protecting and preserving those values of historical Europe (the Old World) that deserve it and which the West ultimately abandoned, losing the fight for himself. This struggle continued throughout the 20th century and was expressed in the world war and the Russian revolution, inextricably linked with each other.
Russia did everything possible to save the West in the 20th century. She implemented the main Western project, an alternative to capitalism, which won the nation-states - a socialist, red project. It crushed German Nazism, the monstrous offspring of the crisis of Western civilization. The last act of Russian altruism was the outstretched hand of friendship from Russia, for which Russia received a monstrous blow in the 1990s.
Everything that Russia has done for the West, it has done at its own expense, by making the greatest sacrifices. The West ultimately rejected all these sacrifices, devalued Russia's contribution to resolving the Western crisis, and decided to take revenge on Russia for the help that it selflessly provided. Further, Russia will go its own way, not worrying about the fate of the West, relying on another part of its heritage - leadership in the global process of decolonization.
As part of this process, Russia has a high potential for partnerships and allies with countries that the West has oppressed for centuries and which are not going to put on its yoke again. Without Russian sacrifice and struggle, these countries would not have been liberated. The denazification of Ukraine is at the same time its decolonization, which the people of Ukraine will have to understand as they begin to free themselves from the intoxication, temptation and dependence of the so-called European choice.

 

[Hermanator 6928]

4 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Basically I'd like people to try to disconnect from the emotional imagery and the pure uncut dope of Ukrainian propaganda and think logically about this. Poland and a large swath of Ukrainians DGAF if this results in WW3. They hate the Russians that much. 

I agree with Brisket's contention that bloodying the Russians' noses is good leverage at the peace table. But there's a fine line between providing for leverage and becoming a hostile combatant, and I fear far too many of y'all are willing to cross that line without a thought in your heads. Damn fool thing in the Balkans logic, and now that the atrocity stories are coming in, and can be presented in a way they never have been before, it's ever more intoxicating...Just remember -- the Ukrainians are just as capable of committing war crimes as the Russians. Maybe more so, because they are defending their land, and I'd be less willing to obey the Geneva Convention in some foreign country than I would in front of my house. We've seen how sadistic they can get with the soldiers taunting the parents of dead Russians on their cellphones. It's understandable but it's horrible. War is hell. 

And the dude found dead with his hands bound and shot in the mouth sounds like a reprisal on an informer to me. Not that there is anything strange about that in a country that has been invaded. Which is why we need a UN investigation of what happened before we accept every word of the Ukrainian gov't as gospel truth. 

As for the idea Putin simply wants to exterminate Ukrainians by the millions, well, then why hasn't he? He could have done that by simply launching thermobaric missiles from Russia straight at population centers. Again, Mearsheimer said it eight years ago -- he knows he can't occupy Ukraine so he wants to break it. And he has broken it, and so he's pulling back.

This is exactly how things played out in Georgia. We egged them on. Russia went down there and smacked them in the mouth. They appealed to us for more helo than we were willing to give. So either we are willing to get in this thing whole hog or we've just led another country into a proxy war costing tremendous loss of life and devastation while we reap more defense contracts and inflate our military budget. 

I don't think the imagery and Ukrainian words are influencing Biden and NATO leaders much other than knowing where Putin is escalating towards. Thing I think you're missing is Putin's nature. He knows his forces are weaker than the US. Weaker than NATO. But he's the type to take whatever he's allowed to take. He'll puff up and threaten and if he can get bigger and badder forces to back down he'll take as much as they let him. He's committing the atrocities and destroying eastern Ukraine to test where the line is. He's always testing to see where the line is. 

That's why it's important NATO establishes that line and communicates it to him. Their big mistake so far as been not doing so. 

 

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20342]

22 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Again, why are you putting that in this thread? What point does it serve? 

 

I was simply addressing a point made by MAC earlier.  

What point does this thread serve?  For that matter, what point does posting on Surly serve?  

Every single byte is somebody's mental masturbation. Transitory. That's it.



 

[Dahobbs 17420]

A few select portions from the above, which apparently @MaybeACoordinator thinks has nothing to do with the war in Ukraine since it actually all our fault. Also, apparently the "liquidation" of portions of the masses is exactly what we've been seeing, but according to @MaybeACoordinator Russia really just wants a neutral Ukraine and would totally agree to UN control of Ukraine (eye roll):

"Denazification is necessary when a significant part of the people - most likely the majority - has been mastered and drawn into the Nazi regime in its politics. That is, when the hypothesis "the people are good - the government is bad" does not work. Recognition of this fact is the basis of the policy of denazification, of all its measures, and the fact itself is its subject matter.
Ukraine is in just such a situation.

* * * 

However, in addition to the top, a significant part of the masses, which are passive Nazis, accomplices of Nazism, are also guilty. They supported and indulged Nazi power. The just punishment of this part of the population is possible only as bearing the inevitable hardships of a just war against the Nazi system, waged as carefully and prudently as possible in relation to civilians. Further denazification of this mass of the population consists in re-education, which is achieved by ideological repression (suppression) of Nazi attitudes and strict censorship: not only in the political sphere, but also necessarily in the sphere of culture and education.

* * * 

Denazification will inevitably also be a de-Ukrainization - a rejection of the large-scale artificial inflation of the ethnic component of self-identification of the population of the territories of historical Little Russia and New Russia, begun by the Soviet authorities.

* * * 

Ukrainism is an artificial anti-Russian construction that does not have its own civilizational content, a subordinate element of an alien and alien civilization. Debanderization by itself will not be enough for denazification - the Bandera element is only a performer and a screen, a disguise for the European project of Nazi Ukraine, therefore the denazification of Ukraine is also its inevitable de-Europeanization.
The Bandera elite must be liquidated, its re-education is impossible. "

[Dahobbs 17420]

1 minute ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

 

I was simply addressing a point made by MAC earlier.  

What point does this thread serve?  For that matter, what point does posting on Surly serve?  

Every single byte is somebody's mental masturbation. Transitory. That's it.



 

No, no you weren't. You're engaging in whataboutism. Stop it. Seriously, read the shit above. 

[WhatTheBuck 28703]

Just a reminder. If Russia really was engaged in “denazification,” that would make them Antifa. 

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20342]

8 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

No, no you weren't. You're engaging in whataboutism. Stop it. Seriously, read the shit above. 

No I wasn't. I'm not responsible for the error of your inferences. 

[Dahobbs 17420]

1 minute ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

No I wasn't. I'm not responsible for the error of your inferences. 

You posted an article that had nothing to do with the subject of thread (Ukraine). You may not have intended to engage in whataboutism. But you most certainly did. 

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20342]

Just now, Dahobbs said:

You posted an article that had nothing to do with the subject of thread (Ukraine). You may not have intended to engage in whataboutism. But you most certainly did. 

I posted an article that addressed a point made by somebody else on this thread. Go jump in a lake. 

[RomaVicta 29769]

2 minutes ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

I posted an article that addressed a point made by somebody else on this thread. Go jump in a lake. 

The point to which you refer was irrelevant to the discussion about what the US should do now regarding Ukraine. Not a single person has posted that our actions to aid Ukraine are founded in a pure history of our own.  No one has disagreed with the fact of American atrocities or disregard for civilian lives in past wars.

We have a horrifying murder rate in the US, too. How does that fit in? What about the utter destruction of the Indians? Is that relevant to the war today? No.

The original point was also part of a fabric of argument that we are slaves to Ukraine propaganda and can't really know that Russia has done horrible things. Pictures and reportage don't matter to MAC, so are we just having a philosophical discussion about what is knowable?

I wonder if you are just unaware of the context of MAC's arguments just as I was when I first entered this conversation after it had been going on awhile.

[Dahobbs 17420]

10 minutes ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

I posted an article that addressed a point made by somebody else on this thread. Go jump in a lake. 

Right, an article in support of the guy that is definitely engaging in whataboutism. Explain for the class what it has to do with Ukraine.

[Gatorubet 30083]

9 minutes ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

I posted an article that addressed a point made by somebody else on this thread. Go jump in a lake. 

NOW it was serious. A double-dog-dare. What else was there but a "triple dare you"? And then, the coup de grace of all dares, the sinister “go jump in a lake!”

[cactusflinthead 27594]

[Hagbard Celine 10749]

On 4/2/2022 at 12:26 AM, Anastasis said:

Tell us more 9/11 truther. 

That's the best you can do?  You're cornered and you bring up WTC 7 ?

Dude, that's all-galaxy ad-hominem.  Thanks for the credibility boost.

[Anastasis 23390]

1 hour ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

Your ability to read into my comment that which you want to read is extraordinary.

New here?

2 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

You're cornered and you bring up WTC 7 ?

Whoosh!!!

[cactusflinthead 27594]

MAC is hanging onto the idea those pics are faked? 

How much confirmation do you need? Not going to believe it until the UN comes to count graves?

Let's see. On one side you have a host of newspapers, agencies, and even the EU affirming the events.

On the other side is Russia. 

This is not looking good for you.

[Anastasis 23390]

5 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

Ukraine made a point of treating Russian captive soldiers humanely.

The information space is flooded right now. I assume that you have seen the videos of some of the "humane treatment" you are trumpeting?

[Scheiss Meister 8398]

This discussion has me wondering two things:  How much of Dr. Mearsheimer's funding comes, or came, directly or indirectly, from Russian or Russian-controlled sources?  How much of @MaybeACoordinator's funding comes, or came, directly or indirectly, from Russian or Russian-controlled sources?

[Anastasis 23390]

1 minute ago, Scheiss Meister said:

This discussion has me wondering two things:  How much of Dr. Mearsheimer's funding comes, or came, directly or indirectly, from Russian or Russian-controlled sources?  How much of @MaybeACoordinator's funding comes, or came, directly or indirectly, from Russian or Russian-controlled sources?

Jesus man, really?

[Woland 729]

I have an acquaintance in Russia that documents graffiti (mostly for artistic quality)

 

[Dahobbs 17420]

15 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

The information space is flooded right now. I assume that you have seen the videos of some of the "humane treatment" you are trumpeting?

Yeah, those videos are cringey. I don't blame UK for doing it, but I wouldn't classify those as humane treatment.  

[Scheiss Meister 8398]

Yeah, really.  We have explored naivete, muddled thinking, wishful thinking, and many other reasons for blaming a third parties (EU, US, NATO) for the actions taken by Russia against Ukraine.  This is another possible reason for MACs attitude, and also worthy of exploration, in my opinion.

Honestly it didn't occur to me until the "verified by a third party" bullshit, which is exactly in line with Russian misinformation.

[WhatTheBuck 28703]

1 hour ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

No I wasn't. I'm not responsible for the error of your inferences. 

You are responsible for the errors of your own.

[Huckleberry 32694]

2 hours ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

Your ability to read into my comment that which you want to read is extraordinary. I did not say that we shouldn't focus on what Russia is doing.  All one has to do is see my countless other posts on this very thread that belie that idea to grasp that.

Is it possible that a) Russia and Putin are doing evil, horrific things in Ukraine 2) The U.S. has done evil, horrific things in the recent past?


 

I didn't read anything into your comment. I was addressing your point and MAC's line of reasoning. You conflated the two in your reading of my post which is funny, all things considered.

I asked you what your end goal was of diverting attention on this thread from Russia's atrocities toward American atrocities because I wanted to know what your goal is. Everybody here understands and recognizes that the United States has done some really bad shit and continues to selectively ignore really bad shit.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Huckleberry

[cactusflinthead 27594]

Right down there in the street. Handing out food.

Getting really tired of comparisons to Vietnam. The history of Ukraine and Russia is plenty.

[Hagbard Celine 10749]

11 hours ago, Anastasis said:

I don't believe this to be true.  And it is not just Mearsheimer's argument, although that seems to be one common recurring example used here and elsewhere. There were lots of people raising the flag 25+ years ago. They lost the debate wrt how to proceed in the post-Cold War world and here we are. Anyhow, that does not absolve Russia or Putin in any way for what is taking place in Ukraine. Just like OBL was not absolved for 9/11 by people who sought to understand the various influences and factors related to the emergence of OBL and the Taliban.     

wow - that is a tangible opinion - well done - we shall call you - sisatsana

[Anastasis 23390]

8 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Yeah, those videos are cringey. I don't blame UK for doing it, but I wouldn't classify those as humane treatment.  

It is impossible to know to ascertain what is legit or not atm. Wild, but not unexpected, to see people chime in with very definitive takes.    

[Anastasis 23390]

2 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

we shall call you - sisatsana

Now that is pretty curious.  @immamac any thoughts what that is in reference to?

[Scheiss Meister 8398]

29 minutes ago, Woland said:

I have an acquaintance in Russia that documents graffiti (mostly for artistic quality)

 

I get the z.  Got translations for the rest?

Edited April 4, 2022 by Scheiss Meister
Question, dammit.

[Guest Lobo]

I think the historical chapters of U.S. crimes against humanity and wartime atrocities by MAC and HUBS should be banned from our collective education system.  They suggest there is institutional war crime commitments inherent in the United States since its founding.  Such educational materials make Americans made to feel uncomfortable and even ashamed.  History does not need to be viewed through a lens of violence and immorality.  We should focus on the positive aspects of history, and use the extra time to focus on STEM-related topics. 

This Critical Warcrime Theory, or CWT, has no place in our education systems, even forums like this where many Americans gather to learn from the expertise of those with experience in these fields.  So from now on, just mention the atrocities of other nations like Russia and leave the once involving the U.S. in the past where they belong and get over it.  

Edited April 4, 2022 by Lobo

[Dahobbs 17420]

41 minutes ago, Woland said:

I have an acquaintance in Russia that documents graffiti (mostly for artistic quality)

 

The first image says "Russia without Putin". But the word "without" is crossed out and replaced with the word for "with." 

The second image says "I'm against"  - and then I can't make out the underlying characters. Obviously it has the Z placed over it by someone else. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Dahobbs

[Dahobbs 17420]

7 minutes ago, Lobo said:

I think the historical chapters of U.S. crimes against humanity and wartime atrocities by MAC and HUBS should be banned from our collective education system.  They suggest there is institutional war crime commitments inherent in the United States since its founding.  Such educational materials make Americans made to feel uncomfortable and even ashamed.  History does not need to be viewed through a lens of violence and immorality.  We should focus on the positive aspects of history, and use the extra time to focus on STEM-related topics. 

This Critical Warcrime Theory, or CWT, has no place in our education systems, even forums like this where many Americans gather to learn from the expertise of those with experience in these fields.  So from now on, just mention the atrocities of other nations like Russia and leave the once involving the U.S. in the past where they belong and get over it.  

I assume and hope this sarcasm. That said, none of it is relevant to this thread. Pointing out the obvious misdirection doesn't mean anyone wants to whitewash our history. 

[Serak The Preparer 3424]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

Now that is pretty curious.  @immamac any thoughts what that is in reference to?

At the risk of being wooshed, I believe that is just your user name backwards. Also good memory on the 9-11 truther bullshit. I just think of hagbard as the asshole who likes to talk about "nips", always good to remember that people are rarely just assholes in a single way (myself certainly not excluded).

[Hornius Emeritus 12408]

2 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

The point to which you refer was irrelevant to the discussion about what the US should do now regarding Ukraine. Not a single person has posted that our actions to aid Ukraine are founded in a pure history of our own.  No one has disagreed with the fact of American atrocities or disregard for civilian lives in past wars.

 

After reading pretty much this entire thread sounds to me like you and HUABS are on the same page here.  He pointed out that Americans have committed war crimes and you agree.

I didn't realize that there is a relevance meter that accompanies the posts here at Surly.  In fact, I would have been pretty sure there isn't, since I've made so many comments that were not relevant to the thread and never been called out on it by anybody. Hell, over on the Ewers thread on the recruiting board we had page after page of discussion about hamburger places that we miss. Were they irrelevant to Quinn Ewers? Yes. So what?

[brakeman 28219]

1 hour ago, cactusflinthead said:

Right down there in the street. Handing out food.

Getting really tired of comparisons to Vietnam. The history of Ukraine and Russia is plenty.

Hero!

[Anastasis 23390]

Just now, Serak The Preparer said:

At the risk of being wooshed, I believe that is just your user name backwards. Also good memory on the 9-11 truther bullshit. I just think of hagbard as the asshole who likes to talk about "nips", always good to remember that people are rarely just assholes in a single way (myself certainly not excluded).

I'll let imma chime in before I comment further. And yes, people that have been paying attention know about certain posters and WTC7 conspiracies.