Ukraine War

[Beantown Express 2.0 6597]

8 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Well see man, there was this election. Actually in Russia of all places. Fairly fresh and new post-cold war shit going down. Democracy and self determination and all that. US via IMF propped up this guy named Boris with $10B cause they did not like his opponent that was polling well. The other guy was kind of a...what do you call it?  Oh, yeah.  Communist.  IMF told everyone that the funding was contingent on the commie not winning. Boris ended up closing the deal, but Boris was a total shit show and liked to walk around the streets of DC in his underwear talking about pizza.  I mean come on, we've all been there, right? So after embarrassing himself and his country, Boris picked this guy name Vlad and earmarked him as his successor. Privatization giving rise to oligarchs and shit in parallel. Boris told the US president that his good buddy Vlad was sociable and Boris got grants of immunity. So and so looked into Vlad's soul, but Vlad didn't fucking end up having one. I wish this wasn't real life, but there you go. 

Is this the IMF Tom Cruise is in or the other one?

[Captainant 28573]

Man this is some top-shelf shithousery by annie. It's fun to break down his method:

He plays a game. He gives you a long anecdote and in that anecdote, he's very clearly making an argument. It's not a complicated argument, you can follow it, it's pretty explicit. Then, next to the anecdote, he includes a conclusion. So it looks like [Long story about how America supported post cold war RU via the IMF] / [conclusion: America is directly responsible for putin's power and his aggression]. Now, any logical person makes a leap and says, "Okay, but America didn't start this war and has stayed uninvolved....why does that apply?". He comes back and says, "I never said that America caused this war, you cannot read, you didn't understand, you're stupid". Obviously not in that language. So he's constantly constructing what he's saying in this very slippery way that anyone engaging with his ideas on his terms is going to naturally draw conclusions about how he's getting to his ideas, but the way he constructs them isn't an argument with evidence, it's very loosey-goosey and so he can constantly call you out on misrepresenting his point and claim he never said the thing you are attributing to him, etc.

So what results are these "debates" or confrontations where people try to talk to him or engage him about his ideas in a critical way and he can shut them all down, which is fun for some people. It's a display of intellectual superiority for some, and a frustrating and puzzling experience for his opponents because he'll immediately backtrack on anything you try to pin him down on. So it produces....great content! It produces a lot of videos where some fumbling liberal/leftist is trying to engage with what he said and he stomps all over them by claiming they don't get it and that's some gooooood youtube. Ben Shapiro and Crowder do the same schitck, and if you don't know that you're going into that scenario when you talk to them, you'll lose just based on the rhetorical stratgies. They look smart and cool without even really talking about the ideas, because the POINT is not to talk about the ideas.

Spoiler

This is actually a borrowed description of how Jordan Peterson weaponizes his bad faith arguments. It popped up in /r/BestOf a while back and I immediately thought of our lil' annie. Change a couple details and it's impressive how accurate it is

 

[B00M 6735]

I truly don't understand the right's opposition to the way we're aiding Ukraine. We're not getting sucked into an escalating war. We haven't gotten ROI like this in an international conflict since we armed Afghans and brought down the USSR. We don't need a "clean exit" because we're not fucking there. It's Putin that has to figure out the exit plan.

The right has been happy to be the world's police for decades, but THIS TIME when we don't actually have to put our sons on the ground, THIS TIME when we have a real opportunity to bring down an adversary and perhaps instigate regime change that may make the world safer, we should just look the other way. Fuck that. Just acknowledge that Biden is doing a decent job walking this tight rope.

[WhatTheBuck 28932]

4 minutes ago, B00M said:

I truly don't understand the right's opposition to the way we're aiding Ukraine. We're not getting sucked into an escalating war. We haven't gotten ROI like this in an international conflict since we armed Afghans and brought down the USSR. We don't need a "clean exit" because we're not fucking there. It's Putin that has to figure out the exit plan.

The right has been happy to be the world's police for decades, but THIS TIME when we don't actually have to put our sons on the ground, THIS TIME when we have a real opportunity to bring down an adversary and perhaps instigate regime change that may make the world safer, we should just look the other way. Fuck that. Just acknowledge that Biden is doing a decent job walking this tight rope.

Joe Biden is a Democrat and he must not be allowed to be seen as successful in any way, shape, or form. It’s that simple.

[Hermanator 7675]

8 minutes ago, B00M said:

I truly don't understand the right's opposition to the way we're aiding Ukraine. We're not getting sucked into an escalating war. We haven't gotten ROI like this in an international conflict since we armed Afghans and brought down the USSR. We don't need a "clean exit" because we're not fucking there. It's Putin that has to figure out the exit plan.

The right has been happy to be the world's police for decades, but THIS TIME when we don't actually have to put our sons on the ground, THIS TIME when we have a real opportunity to bring down an adversary and perhaps instigate regime change that may make the world safer, we should just look the other way. Fuck that. Just acknowledge that Biden is doing a decent job walking this tight rope.

The repubs don't like this because the repubs want to do here what Putin is doing in Russia and Ukraine. They want America to be a repub led authoritarian nation so they can legally persecute gays, minorities, etc. while also stealing from and ripping off Americans even more than they are doing now. Having a Putin taking over the US and making the repub politicians his oligarchs is their dream. 

Putin's failure is their failure. The world turning against Putin is the world turning against them and what they stand for and want to accomplish. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Hermanator

[Pods 7637]

12 minutes ago, B00M said:

I truly don't understand the right's opposition to the way we're aiding Ukraine.

No matter what we do, they'll be opposed, because the Dems control the Presidency and Congress. Any move Biden makes will be called the biggest foreign policy mistake since Benghazi.

Whatever Biden does, they will scream that he should have done the other thing, no matter what that other thing is.

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Pods
I see WhatTheBuck got it before me. I wish it wasn't that simple, but it is.

[wildcat09 29595]

12 hours ago, Anastasis said:

This is stupid, even for you. 

Truth hurts, don't it? I hate to break it to you, but reflexive contrarianism isn't actually critical thinking.

[Anastasis 23723]

4 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

Yeah no

OK. Happy to consider your perspective on how Vladimir Putin rose to power.  I am not sure how you can get there without the context of post-cold war policy wrt Russia, a little light election interference, and the West's push to reshape Russia's economy resulting in the rise of the Russian oligarchy, but happy to consider it. 

[InkaUtexas 26917]

 

[Sawbonz 28232]

32 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

OK. Happy to consider your perspective on how Vladimir Putin rose to power.  I am not sure how you can get there without the context of post-cold war policy wrt Russia, a little light election interference, and the West's push to reshape Russia's economy resulting in the rise of the Russian oligarchy, but happy to consider it. 

It is absurd to say that but for US foreign policy Putin would not have risen to power. No one who knows the history of the fall of the Soviet Union and Putin’s subsequent rise is going to take time to refute that as it is prima facie ridiculous. 
 

I find it odd that you maintain that the US political landscape could yield President Trump with no interference from Russia (which I agree with for the most part) yet the Russian people have no agency and are now in the clutches of Putin solely because of the evil American empire. Just stop 

[fattyflattie 4640]

1 hour ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Joe Biden is a Democrat and he must not be allowed to be seen as successful in any way, shape, or form. It’s that simple.

This is rich.  

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20932]

6 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

This is rich.  

It's spot on. It was spot on when McConnell said it about Obama and it is spot on regarding Biden. 

 

[fattyflattie 4640]

Just now, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

It's spot on. It was spot on when McConnell said it about Obama and it is spot on regarding Biden. 

 

Yes. And absolutely nothing like ‘16-20. 

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20932]

Just now, fattyflattie said:

Yes. And absolutely nothing like ‘16-20. 

Joe Biden is trying to help Ukrainians overthrow an invader who has killed thousands of innocent civilians and leveled cities. Donald Trump was trying to grab Ivanka by the pussy.

There's a qualitative difference.

[fattyflattie 4640]

1 minute ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

Joe Biden is trying to help Ukrainians overthrow an invader who has killed thousands of innocent civilians and leveled cities. Donald Trump was trying to grab Ivanka by the pussy.

There's a qualitative difference.

Yes, I know.  Bestest president eva!!!!1! vs worsest person eva!!!1!!  Got it. 

[Red Five 41757]

5 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Yes, I know.  Bestest president eva!!!!1! vs worsest person eva!!!1!!  Got it. 

Decent president and human vs worsest person eva. You were close. 

[Mdhorn 6166]

1 hour ago, B00M said:

I truly don't understand the right's opposition to the way we're aiding Ukraine. We're not getting sucked into an escalating war. We haven't gotten ROI like this in an international conflict since we armed Afghans and brought down the USSR. We don't need a "clean exit" because we're not fucking there. It's Putin that has to figure out the exit plan.

The right has been happy to be the world's police for decades, but THIS TIME when we don't actually have to put our sons on the ground, THIS TIME when we have a real opportunity to bring down an adversary and perhaps instigate regime change that may make the world safer, we should just look the other way. Fuck that. Just acknowledge that Biden is doing a decent job walking this tight rope.

It's not anymore complicated than they're against it because Democrats are for it. They get paid to oppose Democrats.

[Captainant 28573]

23 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Yes, I know.  Bestest president eva!!!!1! vs worsest person eva!!!1!!  Got it. 

You're not going to find anyone on this board who defends Biden even half as much as you defend trump.

[jimmyjazz 47236]

27 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Yes. And absolutely nothing like ‘16-20. 

Donald Trump is a criminal and a con man.  He acted to undermine US foreign policy and thwart our democratic election process.

You can't say any of that about Joe BIden.

[Hookah Horns 3089]

2 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Donald Trump is a criminal and a con man.  He acted to undermine US foreign policy and thwart our democratic election process.

You can't say any of that about Joe BIden.

Idk, I heard Biden has himself a whole "crime family." Or something. 

[RomaVicta 30605]

23 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Donald Trump is a criminal and a con man.  He acted to undermine US foreign policy and thwart our democratic election process.

You can't say any of that about Joe BIden.

But they can say that about Joe Biden. They do it all the time. They really like lying. They are shameless liars who don't give a fuck about the country represented by the flag they so tiresomely and ironically wave around all over the place.

[wildcat09 29595]

27 minutes ago, Captainant said:

You're not going to find anyone on this board who defends Biden even half as much as you defend trump.

Yeah, except on foreign policy I think he's been pretty shitty. Not unexpectedly, but he's still been disappointing on most shit. But on this issue, I'm extremely fucking glad he's President right now.

[Hermanator 7675]

56 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Yes, I know.  Bestest president eva!!!!1! vs worsest person eva!!!1!!  Got it. 

Describe in detail Trump's policies and actions as president that were beneficial for the majority of American people and not just the wealthy. 

[hayden_horn 11402]

1 hour ago, Sawbonz said:

It is absurd to say that but for US foreign policy Putin would not have risen to power. No one who knows the history of the fall of the Soviet Union and Putin’s subsequent rise is going to take time to refute that as it is prima facie ridiculous. 
 

I find it odd that you maintain that the US political landscape could yield President Trump with no interference from Russia (which I agree with for the most part) yet the Russian people have no agency and are now in the clutches of Putin solely because of the evil American empire. Just stop 

i believe that you have stumbled upon the genesis of this particular argument he is putting forth. it's a strange twisted logic, but he's spent years arguing how russia could not have conspired either with or for trump to get him elected. now, somehow, we are the puppet masters causing russia to invade and slaughter innocent ukrainians?

i don't get it, but i feel like you've gotten the closest as to the "why does he argue the way he argues?"

[WhatTheBuck 28932]

15 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

But they can say that about Joe Biden. They do it all the time. They really like lying. They are shameless liars who don't give a fuck about the country represented by the flag they so tiresomely and ironically wave around all over the place.

They care a lot more about the flag as a symbol than they do about anything it represents, starting with the Constitution. 

[956 Worldwide 35598]

17 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

i believe that you have stumbled upon the genesis of this particular argument he is putting forth. it's a strange twisted logic, but he's spent years arguing how russia could not have conspired either with or for trump to get him elected. now, somehow, we are the puppet masters causing russia to invade and slaughter innocent ukrainians?

i don't get it, but i feel like you've gotten the closest as to the "why does he argue the way he argues?"

The U.S. military industrial complex enriched itself under the guise of opposing fascism and ending the depression via the lend-lease program which needlessly prolonged and escalated the war in Europe, which otherwise might very well have been over by early 1942.  The symbol of American military aid being the Studebaker deuce and a half truck, which allowed for Soviet logistical support across the Eastern Front. The subsequent victory of the USSR, which otherwise would have at the very least been reduced in size and power, led to the Cold War and our unrelenting efforts to undermine our erstwhile Soviet allies and encourage liberation movements in Eastern Europe. This of course led to the inevitable post-Cold War politics of the 1990s, which created a kleptocratic oligarchy that craved the type of return to order and national renewal that Vladimir Putin offered.  And so here we are. 
 

We can’t talk about Bucha or this war in Ukraine without considering FDR and Studebaker’s role in creating this tragedy. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by 956 Worldwide

[fattyflattie 4640]

51 minutes ago, Captainant said:

You're not going to find anyone on this board who defends Biden even half as much as you defend trump.

That is funny.  You'd have a hard fucking time finding me defending Trump.  You're welcome to try, but I wouldn't waste my time on it. 

25 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Not unexpectedly, but he's still been disappointing on most shit. But on this issue, I'm extremely fucking glad he's President right now.

You can go all the way back to Reagan on presidents that would have handled this better the guy that followed them.  Better than the last guy is a pretty, pretty low bar.  And I'm not certain he's even clearing it other than not being a felonious, twitter obsessed dickhead. 

[Kilgorehorn 308]

3 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The U.S. military industrial complex enriched itself under the guise of opposing fascism and ending the depression via the lend-lease program which needlessly prolonged and escalated the war in Europe, which otherwise might very well have been over by early 1942.

Could you expand on this. Who would have won and how would this have affected the war in the Pacific?

 

[Brisketexan 106951]

4 minutes ago, Kilgorehorn said:

Could you expand on this. Who would have won and how would this have affected the war in the Pacific?

 

See, it's like kidney disease.....

[956 Worldwide 35598]

7 minutes ago, Kilgorehorn said:

Could you expand on this. Who would have won and how would this have affected the war in the Pacific?

 

U.S. defense contractors were unhappy and needed more orders and so we provoked Japan to attack us. We should have had the foresight to allow Japan to successfully conquer China and kept our nose out of their business. Instead, we supported Chinese national forces which inevitably led to the fall of China to Mao and today’s peer competitor China.  All part of American forever war and the military industrial complex! 

[Dahobbs 18335]

13 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

That is funny.  You'd have a hard fucking time finding me defending Trump.  You're welcome to try, but I wouldn't waste my time on it. 

You can go all the way back to Reagan on presidents that would have handled this better the guy that followed them.  Better than the last guy is a pretty, pretty low bar.  And I'm not certain he's even clearing it other than not being a felonious, twitter obsessed dickhead. 

What is Biden doing wrong in managing the war in Ukraine? He has galvanized our allies, reinvigorated NATO, organized our allies to punish Russia with extensive sanctions, quickly mobilized addition logistical support for Ukraine, and, oh yeah, he called out Russia's intent to invade from the very fucking beginning when everyone else was saying otherwise. His leadership has been pretty fucking close to flawless. You could quibble with the speed of sanctions I guess, but that is smallest of nits.   

Edited April 5, 2022 by Dahobbs

[fattyflattie 4640]

6 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

What is Biden doing wrong in managing the war in Ukraine? He has galvanized our allies, reinvigorated NATO, organized our allies to punish Russia with extensive sanctions, quickly mobilized addition logistical support for Ukraine, and, oh yeah, he called out Russia's intent to invade from the very fucking beginning when everyone else was saying otherwise. His leadership has been pretty fucking close to flawless. You could quibble with the speed of sanctions I guess, but that is smallest of nits.   

Please go back and find where I've criticized anything Biden has done with regards to Ukraine.  I commented on a post about how the irony was oh so thick that there are political motives from political parties.  Because, you know, no one but R's have ever tried to get in the way of their political rivals, ever.  All the other bullshit that followed came from people that don't read too good, or are constantly making assumptions.  Both are par for the course in CR.  

*ETA - my very last post saying each preceding president likely would have done better was meant from Trump back, if that wasn't clear. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by fattyflattie

[Dahobbs 18335]

3 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Please go back and find where I've criticized anything Biden has done with regards to Ukraine.  I commented on a post about how the irony was oh so thick that there are political motives from political parties.  Because, you know, no one but R's have ever tried to get in the way of their political rivals, ever.  All the other bullshit that followed came from people that don't read too good, or are constantly making assumptions.  Both are par for the course in CR.  

Uh....

22 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

That is funny.  You'd have a hard fucking time finding me defending Trump.  You're welcome to try, but I wouldn't waste my time on it. 

You can go all the way back to Reagan on presidents that would have handled this better the guy that followed them.  Better than the last guy is a pretty, pretty low bar.  And I'm not certain he's even clearing it other than not being a felonious, twitter obsessed dickhead. 

The above pretty fucking clearly implies that you think Biden may not be handling this [read: Ukraine War]  better than Trump would have. That's fucking ridiculous.  Do you seriously believe Trump would have done ANY of the above? After speeding years trying to tear down NATO and isolate us from our allies, you think he was going to get Germany on board with sanctions against Russia? You think he would have called our Russia's intent to invade? Come the fuck on. What a bunch of horse shit. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Dahobbs

[fattyflattie 4640]

1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

Uh....

The above pretty fucking clearly implies that you think Biden may not be clearing handling this [read: Ukraine War]  better than Trump would have. That's fucking ridiculous. : Do you seriously believe Trump would have done ANY of the above? After speeding years trying to tear down NATO and isolate us from our allies, you think he was going to get Germany on board with sanctions against Russia? You think he would have called our Russia's intent to invade? Come the fuck on. What a bunch of horse shit. 

I clarified that while you were posting.  I meant from Trump back.  I'm fine with whatever the string pullers are doing in Ukraine while Joe eats icecream and sundowns. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by fattyflattie

[956 Worldwide 35598]

2 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Please go back and find where I've criticized anything Biden has done with regards to Ukraine.  I commented on a post about how the irony was oh so thick that there are political motives from political parties.  Because, you know, no one but R's have ever tried to get in the way of their political rivals, ever.  All the other bullshit that followed came from people that don't read too good, or are constantly making assumptions.  Both are par for the course in CR.  

*ETA - my very last post saying each preceding president likely would have done better was meant from Trump back, if that wasn't clear. 

There is only one President in the history of the United States that has asked a hostile foreign power to help him find and circulate kompromat on his American political enemies. 

[Longhorn_Fan68 34106]

3 hours ago, Captainant said:

Man this is some top-shelf shithousery by annie. It's fun to break down his method:

He plays a game. He gives you a long anecdote and in that anecdote, he's very clearly making an argument. It's not a complicated argument, you can follow it, it's pretty explicit. Then, next to the anecdote, he includes a conclusion. So it looks like [Long story about how America supported post cold war RU via the IMF] / [conclusion: America is directly responsible for putin's power and his aggression]. Now, any logical person makes a leap and says, "Okay, but America didn't start this war and has stayed uninvolved....why does that apply?". He comes back and says, "I never said that America caused this war, you cannot read, you didn't understand, you're stupid". Obviously not in that language. So he's constantly constructing what he's saying in this very slippery way that anyone engaging with his ideas on his terms is going to naturally draw conclusions about how he's getting to his ideas, but the way he constructs them isn't an argument with evidence, it's very loosey-goosey and so he can constantly call you out on misrepresenting his point and claim he never said the thing you are attributing to him, etc.

So what results are these "debates" or confrontations where people try to talk to him or engage him about his ideas in a critical way and he can shut them all down, which is fun for some people. It's a display of intellectual superiority for some, and a frustrating and puzzling experience for his opponents because he'll immediately backtrack on anything you try to pin him down on. So it produces....great content! It produces a lot of videos where some fumbling liberal/leftist is trying to engage with what he said and he stomps all over them by claiming they don't get it and that's some gooooood youtube. Ben Shapiro and Crowder do the same schitck, and if you don't know that you're going into that scenario when you talk to them, you'll lose just based on the rhetorical stratgies. They look smart and cool without even really talking about the ideas, because the POINT is not to talk about the ideas.

  Reveal hidden contents

This is actually a borrowed description of how Jordan Peterson weaponizes his bad faith arguments. It popped up in /r/BestOf a while back and I immediately thought of our lil' annie. Change a couple details and it's impressive how accurate it is

 

underscores why I have had him on ignore for quite some time

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

You're not going to find anyone on this board who defends Biden even half as much as you defend trump.

goddamn, this is a good, simple point. and 100% true

[fattyflattie 4640]

3 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

There is only one President in the history of the United States that has asked a hostile foreign power to help him find and circulate kompromat on his American political enemies. 

Cool.  What does that have to do with the comment I made about the irony of the statement that what the other side does is always bad/wrong?

[WhatTheBuck 28932]

32 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The U.S. military industrial complex enriched itself under the guise of opposing fascism and ending the depression via the lend-lease program which needlessly prolonged and escalated the war in Europe, which otherwise might very well have been over by early 1942.  The symbol of American military aid being the Studebaker deuce and a half truck, which allowed for Soviet logistical support across the Eastern Front. The subsequent victory of the USSR, which otherwise would have at the very least been reduced in size and power, led to the Cold War and our unrelenting efforts to undermine our erstwhile Soviet allies and encourage liberation movements in Eastern Europe. This of course led to the inevitable post-Cold War politics of the 1990s, which created a kleptocratic oligarchy that craved the type of return to order and national renewal that Vladimir Putin offered.  And so here we are. 
 

We can’t talk about Bucha or this war in Ukraine without considering FDR and Studebaker’s role in creating this tragedy. 

Fwiw, I’ve been to the Studebaker Museum in South Bend. It was pretty cool. 

[Dahobbs 18335]

8 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

I edited that while you were posting.  I meant from Trump back.  

I have no idea what you mean. Your post says the same thing and implies Trump would have handled this as well as Biden. Even if you meant to say that all prior Presidents going back to Reagan other than Trump [definitely not what you wrote], that still reads like as a criticism, which is absurd since his performance has been near flawless.  He has galvanized the world in a way that hasn't been done since the Cuban missile crisis. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Dahobbs

[A-Tex Devil 2500]

4 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Cool.  What does that have to do with the comment I made about the irony of the statement that what the other side does is always bad/wrong?

So “both sides”?  Just say it. 

[Anastasis 23723]

2 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

It is absurd to say that but for US foreign policy Putin would not have risen to power. No one who knows the history of the fall of the Soviet Union and Putin’s subsequent rise is going to take time to refute that as it is prima facie ridiculous. 

I think that it's absurd to not appreciate the role that the failures of our post-cold war policies play in where we are today. 

You and others might find this article interesting: https://prospect.org/world/was-putin-inevitable-feb-2022/

The Western officials who inflicted raw, uncushioned shock therapy on Russia’s economy and needlessly treated Russia as a defeated enemy rather than a new security partner virtually invited a nationalist reaction likely to produce a Vladimir Putin or someone like him. This observation doesn’t make Putin a good guy. Quite the contrary: He is a thug, an autocrat, and an ally of kleptocrats. But the history shows that the twin conceits of America as sole superpower and abrupt marketization as the cure for communism interacted to create a needless catastrophe that ranks with the Treaty of Versailles. The fact that an American president has been enlisted as Putin’s agent only deepens the disaster. The rise of Hitler, at least, paralleled the ascent of Roosevelt.

As the Russia scholar Michael Mandelbaum observes, looking back at two centuries of great wars, there were two postwar settlements that basically got it right and two that got it disastrously wrong. After the Napoleonic Wars crushed the French, the 1815 Congress of Vienna nonetheless recognized France as a great power with legitimate interests. There was no such treatment of Germany after World War I. After a second world war, the victorious Allies made sure to help promote German economic recovery and bring Germany into both the Western alliance and the Western economic system. But after the Cold War, the triumphalist Americans repeated the folly of Versailles, with similar results.

This winter happens to be the 100th anniversary of the publication of the book that launched Keynes as the world’s leading critic of dumb geopolitics and misguided economics. It’s also the 30th anniversary of the collapse of communism and the bungled effort to help Russia rebuild as a democratic market economy, as well as the 20th anniversary of Putin’s rule. At 67, he is now the longest-tenured leader of any major nation, having served longer than any Russian ruler since Stalin. This is a good moment for a sorting-out. In an effort to assess whether U.S. policy and Russian history might have been different, I reviewed dozens of memoirs, books, documents, and articles from the period, and interviewed more than a score of former senior officials. The record shows there was a better road not taken.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Anastasis

[956 Worldwide 35598]

1 minute ago, fattyflattie said:

Cool.  What does that have to do with the comment I made about the irony of the statement that what the other side does is always bad/wrong?

You stated:

Quote

 Because, you know, no one but R's have ever tried to get in the way of their political rivals, ever. 

Today’s Republican Party with Trump as its leader is uniquely awful and destructive in its political war fighting. A failure to admit and recognize this and instead to relativize it by pointing at Democrat political maneuvering is the rhetorical equivalent to “are we so innocent.” Its why we can’t have a healthy conservative wing in American politics and why instead of playing normal politics we’re all looking over out shoulder and trying to fend off autocrats at home instead of just abroad. 

[Neonmoon 38130]

[BearSchlong 8248]

The U.S. military industrial complex enriched itself under the guise of opposing fascism and ending the depression via the lend-lease program which needlessly prolonged and escalated the war in Europe, which otherwise might very well have been over by early 1942.  The symbol of American military aid being the Studebaker deuce and a half truck, which allowed for Soviet logistical support across the Eastern Front. The subsequent victory of the USSR, which otherwise would have at the very least been reduced in size and power, led to the Cold War and our unrelenting efforts to undermine our erstwhile Soviet allies and encourage liberation movements in Eastern Europe. This of course led to the inevitable post-Cold War politics of the 1990s, which created a kleptocratic oligarchy that craved the type of return to order and national renewal that Vladimir Putin offered.  And so here we are. 
 
We can’t talk about Bucha or this war in Ukraine without considering FDR and Studebaker’s role in creating this tragedy. 

Take it back further to Henry Ford contributing to the rise of the Third Reich?

[fattyflattie 4640]

Just now, Dahobbs said:

I have no idea what you mean. Your post says the same thing and implies Trump would have handled this as well as Biden. Even if you meant to say that all prior Presidents going back to Reagan other than Trump [definitely not what you wrote], that still reads like as a criticism, which is absurd since his performance has been near flawless.  

Eh, ok. Near flawless.  I've been told the CR is tough on Biden, glad to see it in person.

I'm saying Reagan>41>Clinton>Jr>Obama >Trump in this situation.  Of course all of these guys can also say it would never happen during their tenure but I really don't gaf to debate everyone on that.  We are helping Ukraine, and that's all that matters. 

[fattyflattie 4640]

5 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

You stated:

Today’s Republican Party with Trump as its leader is uniquely awful and destructive in its political war fighting. A failure to admit and recognize this and instead to relativize it by pointing at Democrat political maneuvering is the rhetorical equivalent to “are we so innocent.” Its why we can’t have a healthy conservative wing in American politics and why instead of playing normal politics we’re all looking over out shoulder and trying to fend off autocrats at home instead of just abroad. 

Actually, it all started with this.  

2 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

This is rich.  

2 hours ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

It's spot on. It was spot on when McConnell said it about Obama and it is spot on regarding Biden. 

 

2 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

Yes. And absolutely nothing like ‘16-20. 

Then a bunch of assumptions and shit flinging happened.  But I'm out.  I got stuck in time out last time for "off topic" while no one I was conversing with did, so fuck that noise. 

[956 Worldwide 35598]

1 minute ago, BearSchlong said:

41 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The U.S. military industrial complex enriched itself under the guise of opposing fascism and ending the depression via the lend-lease program which needlessly prolonged and escalated the war in Europe, which otherwise might very well have been over by early 1942.  The symbol of American military aid being the Studebaker deuce and a half truck, which allowed for Soviet logistical support across the Eastern Front. The subsequent victory of the USSR, which otherwise would have at the very least been reduced in size and power, led to the Cold War and our unrelenting efforts to undermine our erstwhile Soviet allies and encourage liberation movements in Eastern Europe. This of course led to the inevitable post-Cold War politics of the 1990s, which created a kleptocratic oligarchy that craved the type of return to order and national renewal that Vladimir Putin offered.  And so here we are. 
 
We can’t talk about Bucha or this war in Ukraine without considering FDR and Studebaker’s role in creating this tragedy. 

Take it back further to Henry Ford contributing to the rise of the Third Reich?

Which led to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact between the Reich and USSR and the subsequent division of Poland.  Poland lost Lwow (Lviv) and western Ukraine to the Soviets which led to Stepan Bandera and Ukrainian nationalists fighting against the Soviets and collaborating with Nazis. Today the far-right Azov Battalion and Pravy Sektor are inspired by Bandera and his fighters, explicitly.  These extremists threatened Russian speakers in Ukraine which prompted Russia to intervene.  American war profiteers have very bloody hands. There’s a direct line here. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

32 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

U.S. defense contractors were unhappy and needed more orders and so we provoked Japan to attack us. We should have had the foresight to allow Japan to successfully conquer China and kept our nose out of their business. Instead, we supported Chinese national forces which inevitably led to the fall of China to Mao and today’s peer competitor China.  All part of American forever war and the military industrial complex! 

I see, so you're saying Pearl Harbor was an inside job.

[Dahobbs 18335]

11 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Eh, ok. Near flawless.  I've been told the CR is tough on Biden, glad to see it in person.

I'm saying Reagan>41>Clinton>Jr>Obama >Trump in this situation.  Of course all of these guys can also say it would never happen during their tenure but I really don't gaf to debate everyone on that.  We are helping Ukraine, and that's all that matters. 

Stop playing games. I have plenty of non-Ukraine related criticisms. But I very clearly talking about Ukraine. 

What criticism would you have of Biden's performance during this crisis? What about my description of his performance in regards to Ukraine do you disagree with?

 

[kevwun 16442]

There was a pedophile ring being run in a pizza parlor located in the engine compartment of the USS Arizona.  FDR had it destroyed to cover up the evidence.

Edited April 5, 2022 by kevwun