Ukraine War

[Mdhorn 6,166]

52 minutes ago, The Dog said:

Not really:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trumpworld-figures-go-into-meltdown-after-donald-trump-endorses-dr-oz-in-pennsylvania-senate-race

I get it but they like Trump because he did what they wanted - not the other way around. 

They liked Trump because he got them paid.  They will sell their country, parents and first born for money--they already have when you think about global warming.  They didn't even blink with their children's future.  What chance does reason have with this?  They are not about 'murica so much as pay me not to care.  In fact, their followers say it here all the time--my stocks are doing well so...business is good so....pay me not to care.  

Edited April 12, 2022 by Mdhorn

[RomaVicta 30,599]

2 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

Yeah no. 

Well, a Classics professor at UT made that point in a convincing way. I guess I can just dismiss that now. Thanks.

[DigglerontheHoof 21,552]

6 hours ago, The Dog said:

1. could it be more obvious that she's being handled by an FSB officer?

2. Republicans are generally more hawkish than Democrats, so this isn't a position she's going to be able to hold for long if she wants to keep her job IMHO.

I'd be willing to bet 35-45% of her constituents are pro-Putin/Russia.  She'll get re-elected w/ zero problems. 

[UDontKnow 10,572]

On 4/11/2022 at 9:12 AM, RomaVicta said:

Actually, religious wars start with the revealed religions such as Christianity and Islam. Rome would adopt other gods and the Greeks just made equivalents of them. Conquered peoples often thought their gods were weaker than the conquerors and adopted the stronger ones. 

I don't think China or Japan ever attacked anybody for religious reasons. I'm pretty sure religious strife in India begins with the spread of Islam although I'm ignorant of Seikh history or their religious beliefs. [A brief trip to Wikipedia reveals that they are also a revealed religion dating to the the 1400s.]

Once God reveals himself through a prophet, how can one do anything other than do what he believes God's will to be? Free the Holy Land from evil. Kill the evil infidels. Crash a plane into a skyscraper.

But this is a derailment. I apologize. As to the song, it's a pretty tune but the hypocrisy of a multi-millionaire living on an entire floor of the Dakota in NYC singing, "imagine no possessions" always hits a sour note. Lennon was great. It still hurts my soul that he fought so hard to become an American then he ended up getting gunned down here. Horrible.

*Sikh (their religion has strong roots in survival against Islam).

The Eastern religions had their own share of bloody wars. Ashoka spread Buddhism with the sword. But like you suggest, their dark ages were mostly long gone by the time rise Christianity rose and Islam was founded.

Now the Abrahamic religions took it up a notch (and a permanent one at that) when they embraced the 'one true God' concept. It basically gave them carte blanche to go after anyone else that did not prescribe to their specific 'one true God.'

[Hookah Horns 3,089]

16 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Dude….Idiocracy is so far in our rear view mirror we can’t even see it from here. And Luke Wilson ain’t coming to save us.

Yeah, I'd take prez Camacho over Trump any day. 

[Longhorn_Fan68 34,106]

 

[Satchel 6,982]

3 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

 

Putin views best friends much in the same way Trump does. They’re expendable.

[Longhorn_Fan68 34,106]

2 minutes ago, Satchel said:

Putin views best friends much in the same way Trump does. They’re expendable.

yeah, but this one was rich and likely to be the one installed as the puppet president if Zelenskyy left. seems kinda important

[elfenix 34,752]

On 4/11/2022 at 10:35 AM, horn4life said:

Just sort of an interesting map overlay for "If Austin were Kyiv."

 

I wish the map was positioned more with the Texas coast lining up with the Ukrainian coast.  Then I could envision Abilene as Kyiv, and Houston Mariupol, then placind Austin more where Dnipro is.  Anyhow sort of interesting visually.  https://www.yahoo.com/news/austin-were-kyiv-ukraine-map-144523602.html

 

I

[Satchel 6,982]

7 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

yeah, but this one was rich and likely to be the one installed as the puppet president if Zelenskyy left. seems kinda important

Even so, Putin is like, who’s my new best friend?

[Hookah Horns 3,089]

15 hours ago, The Dog said:

Not really:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trumpworld-figures-go-into-meltdown-after-donald-trump-endorses-dr-oz-in-pennsylvania-senate-race

I get it but they like Trump because he did what they wanted - not the other way around. 

From the link: "“It’s like Donald Trump’s staff is sabotaging Trump by convincing him to make the worst possible endorsements,” conservative radio host Erick Erickson tweeted."

That's hilarious. Yeah, I'm sure dotard's staff is the reason he picked some D list TV personality and quack. These people are truly dumber than shit. It's almost like these people don't know anything about their God. 

I don't agree with your conclusion though. They love Trump mostly because he says the sort of ignorant bullshit they wanted to hear in a bellicose fashion, and it makes them feel better for being ignorant assholes. What did he give the magats besides some judges, which any R potus would have done?

[Guest Lobo]

8 minutes ago, elfenix said:

Good map, but it doesn't quite scale for the amount of Texans who are secretly cheering for Putin because he's protecting his borders, being a genius, and displaying bold alpha leadership.  

Edited April 12, 2022 by Lobo

[Mdhorn 6,166]

1 hour ago, Hookah Horns said:

From the link: "“It’s like Donald Trump’s staff is sabotaging Trump by convincing him to make the worst possible endorsements,” conservative radio host Erick Erickson tweeted."

That's hilarious. Yeah, I'm sure dotard's staff is the reason he picked some D list TV personality and quack. These people are truly dumber than shit. It's almost like these people don't know anything about their God. 

I don't agree with your conclusion though. They love Trump mostly because he says the sort of ignorant bullshit they wanted to hear in a bellicose fashion, and it makes them feel better for being ignorant assholes. What did he give the magats besides some judges, which any R potus would have done?

He gift wrapped them open racism and homophobia as nationalism.  

[Hookah Horns 3,089]

Touche.

[WhatTheBuck 28,931]

3 hours ago, Satchel said:

Even so, Putin is like, who’s my new best friend?

He likes people who don’t get captured. 

[cactusflinthead 27,627]

Mearsheimer might want to quit while he still has friends.

 

[Mdhorn 6,166]

This is one of those times I wish a covert group of seals "volunteered" to go over and put a few in the head of every one of these serial killing bastards.  Also, while we're flushing shitty people, maybe send Erik Prince over to demine the Ukraine so he could actually have a positive purpose.  No Erik, you'll be traveling alone.  Your team will meet up with you once you're on the ground in Kiev and oh by the way, you're going to need this metal rod to help you locate them.  

[956 Worldwide 35,594]

5 hours ago, cactusflinthead said:

Mearsheimer might want to quit while he still has friends.

 

On the other thread there is an analysis of how Russia’s underdeveloped regions are over represented in combat losses. There is also anecdotal testimony that non-Russian soldiers— Buriats, Tuvans, Daghestanis, etc., have been more brutal against civilians. I’d be unsurprised if this was planned knowing that ethnic Russians would have a harder time being merciless against Ukrainians that are so similar to them.

[DigglerontheHoof 21,552]

I want to see Putin's head, literally, on a pike and displayed in Kyiv. 

[WhatTheBuck 28,931]

4 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

I want to see Putin's head, literally, on a pike and displayed in Kyiv. 

Vlad should be impaled?

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

49 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

I want to see Putin's head, literally, on a pike and displayed in Kyiv. 

I like the visual. I'd settle for seeing him sitting in a small cell with iron bars.

[InkaUtexas 26,899]

51 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I like the visual. I'd settle for seeing him sitting in a small cell with iron bars.

Preferably one in Siberia or Ukraine and not in The Hague. 

[WhatTheBuck 28,931]

PBS replayed the episode of Frontline last night titled “Putin’s Road To War” that first aired a month ago. It’s still informative and even more outrageous when you consider the shocking brutality of the acts he’s committed since then.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/putins-road-to-war/

I don’t think there’s any good solution other than the death of Putin and the return of the Donbas and Crimea to Ukraine and letting them be a sovereign nation again with control of all their territory. As long as Putin lives, any concessions will only be temporary. He will never settle for anything less than a complete takeover. 

[DigglerontheHoof 21,552]

Yep.  Putin must die. 

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

Bring me the head of Vladimir Putin, a great movie title.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Onboard 2.0

[horn4life 3,838]

36 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

PBS replayed the episode of Frontline last night titled “Putin’s Road To War” that first aired a month ago. It’s still informative and even more outrageous when you consider the shocking brutality of the acts he’s committed since then.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/putins-road-to-war/

I don’t think there’s any good solution other than the death of Putin and the return of the Donbas and Crimea to Ukraine and letting them be a sovereign nation again with control of all their territory. As long as Putin lives, any concessions will only be temporary. He will never settle for anything less than a complete takeover. 

Yeah the wife and I watched/ listened to that last night.  There was also some show before that we first tuned in on that was interesting regarding Stalin and intelligence via spying in the lead up to Germany's push into Russia.  It was pretty interesting, especially seeing all the tentacles of information.  

You know that now Putin is going to try to crate a land bridge taking most everything east of Odessa along the coast.   I will go back to what a ssid a week or so ago.  time to start sinking ships.  Mainly simply because ships are expensive, and you can't easily replace them or propaganda their disappearance away.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

16 minutes ago, horn4life said:

Yeah the wife and I watched/ listened to that last night.  There was also some show before that we first tuned in on that was interesting regarding Stalin and intelligence via spying in the lead up to Germany's push into Russia.  It was pretty interesting, especially seeing all the tentacles of information.  

You know that now Putin is going to try to crate a land bridge taking most everything east of Odessa along the coast.   I will go back to what a ssid a week or so ago.  time to start sinking ships.  Mainly simply because ships are expensive, and you can't easily replace them or propaganda their disappearance away.

Think it’s been established that sinking ships is a much bigger task does Ukraine have a navy capable of doing that ? which then means NATO hast to get involved and I think we all know where that leads to.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Onboard 2.0

[horn4life 3,838]

12 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Think it’s been established that sinking ships is a much bigger task does Ukraine have a navy capable of doing that ? which then means NATO hast to get involved and I think we all know where that leads to.

Missiles.  There is the capability, and it's land based not sea based.

[WhatTheBuck 28,931]

14 minutes ago, horn4life said:

There was also some show before that we first tuned in on that was interesting regarding Stalin and intelligence via spying in the lead up to Germany's push into Russia.  It was pretty interesting, especially seeing all the tentacles of information.

That was episode one of season two of the series Dictators at War titled “Rise of the Nazis.” Also good and representative of events still going on in the world today.

If you have Create TV, a digital subchannel of PBS, they show reruns of the previous night’s prime time PBS broadcasts. If you don’t, and live in a metro area, a cheap antenna will probably get it for you. They also carry a lot of great cooking shows. That’s where I was introduced to BBQ with Franklin. 

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

16 minutes ago, horn4life said:

Missiles.  There is the capability, and it's land based not sea based.

Is that a system easily used, does it require a much more sophisticated fire system, training, is it mobile or fixed, etc. ?  I like the idea.

[Pescado_Rojo 19,587]

16 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Is that a system easily used, does it require a much more sophisticated fire system, training, is it mobile or fixed, etc. ?  I like the idea.

It depends. If the current model of everyone sending Ukraine their old shit holds true, a lot of land based anti-ship missiles are fairly fixed systems. There's a new system the Marines are just starting to deploy that's mounted on a truck body and is extremely mobile. I don't think it's fully deployed by our guys yet and is probably an integrated system, so I doubt we'd send it to the Ukes. 

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

9 minutes ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

It depends. If the current model of everyone sending Ukraine their old shit holds true, a lot of land based anti-ship missiles are fairly fixed systems. There's a new system the Marines are just starting to deploy that's mounted on a truck body and is extremely mobile. I don't think it's fully deployed by our guys yet and is probably an integrated system, so I doubt we'd send it to the Ukes. 

Yep, we're not sending first line, new toy stuff, which makes sense for all kinds of reasons. Something truck mounted/mobile seems to be a great, quick way to tackle the situation.

[horn4life 3,838]

On 3/30/2022 at 7:09 AM, horn4life said:

Time to start sinking ships!

I advocated very early on for what I thought was the best help we could give them would be to flood the battlefield with Drones and Stingers.  Simply a I felt is was the best way to extract a higher cost for Russia.  The ferocity of the good guys was far, far beyond my expectations.  

This war has evolved and it's time to switch tactics with the main focus to further increase the cost to Putin.  Sinking a couple ships that were pounding Mariupol, would be a very, very good start in allowing the Ukrainians to clearly show they can extract enormous costs as time goes forward.

I have no illusion that Putin is actually withdrawing.  More likely IMHO he is trying to simply consolidate the coast around the Sea of Azov and lock Ukraine out of sea access. Strategically this is the one thing I think Putin can do and plausibly save face for his people.  Conversely IMHO it's an outcome that I think could be made extremely costly if the Ukrainians could start sinking ships.  I also think there is a certain psychology that is unique to the Navy than other branches of the Military.  Ships return to port or they do not.  Not having a ship return psychologically is like losing every sailor on the ship, even if that is not true.  It's like an empty parking spot reminding daily of a defeat and loss of fellow soldiers.

Anyhow let's get them whatever they need to start sinking a few ships.  Putin is only going to try to save face if we can further ratchet up the costs on and off the battle field.  I personally believe that beginning to sink a few ships is the single best next step we could take in moving this war toward an end.  Not that I think it will end anytime soon, but I think that a couple of new reefs made of Russian Naval ships, is the best and most cost effective strategy to make Putin bleed a little more.

 

On 3/30/2022 at 9:36 AM, horn4life said:

Apparently the ship killer can be launched from these, so a good fit for a more stealthy presence

This looks like it would work, but how fast could you shift production?  Seems like it's not something we have a lot of laying around.  Marine corps Anti ship truck mounted missile launcher, can be remotely operated apparently

Not really sure if there is much of a stealth method to sink the ships other than perhaps drones, or something like above.  What sort of production window and TRAINING window might be needed to get Ukraine capable of retaking access to the Sea?  The longer this goes on the more it costs Russia, but Ukraine is paying a horrific cost. 

But finding a way to break the ONLY THING that I see as a possible "victory" for Putin is taking the Sea of Azov. I personally feel with the sort of cost Ukraine has already taken on finding a way to thwart complete Russian control of the coast is paramount.  Now it may be that the Ukrainians feel that land is lost, but that is where Putin is most determined to try to maintain control.  If not from occupation, from destruction.  But sinking a few ships would be a nice way to make the coastal occupation a bit more uncomfortable and expensive longer term,

Wow... I didn't realize it was a month ago.  Definitely would need at least some training.  But if the platform is small enough to be mounted on the back of a truck, then I imagine the training can't be horrifically complicated.  Probably more of a "if this doesn't work in the field, how do you fix it or do a work around?"  In anticipation of the obvious issues of field use of any weaponry. The other problem is we simply do not have shit tons of these missiles as our Naval capabilities would be a compatible with what our needs were... until the end of February. 😞 

 

 

[WhatTheBuck 28,931]

14 minutes ago, horn4life said:

Wow... I didn't realize it was a month ago.  Definitely would need at least some training.  But if the platform is small enough to be mounted on the back of a truck, then I imagine the training can't be horrifically complicated.  Probably more of a "if this doesn't work in the field, how do you fix it or do a work around?"  In anticipation of the obvious issues of field use of any weaponry. The other problem is we simply do not have shit tons of these missiles as our Naval capabilities would be a compatible with what our needs were... until the end of February. 😞 

I saw someone ask James Stavridis how long it would take to train Ukrainian forces if we provided them with our more advanced weapon systems, whether it would take weeks or months. He said that under the circumstances it would only take weeks and that these systems aren’t designed to be difficult to use.

I should probably add that what I gather from separate reporting is that part of our reluctance in providing our advanced weapon is a concern that they could fall into Russian hands and that would give them the opportunity to study them. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by WhatTheBuck

[WhatTheBuck 28,931]

*weapons

[TXSG8R 3,362]

20 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

I saw someone ask James Stavridis how long it would take to train Ukrainian forces if we provided them with our more advanced weapon systems, whether it would take weeks or months. He said that under the circumstances it would only take weeks and that these systems aren’t designed to be difficult to use.

I should probably add that what I gather from separate reporting is that part of our reluctance in providing our advanced weapon is a concern that they could fall into Russian hands and that would give them the opportunity to study them. 

Combat arms MOSes are generally not full of Mensa candidates, so yes, most weapon systems are usually extremely easy to train and operate by design. Aircraft generally being the exception to that rule. There are other hurdles to overcome though, mainly in logistics and support. There’s a reason we always have a large contractor contingent that follows US forces into combat.  Most of our equipment can’t be sustained at the unit level beyond a few weeks without external support.  I think that’s the biggest issue facing handing off a lot of our gear to the Ukes.  
 

Second point is also correct, we usually don’t provide anyone else our top shelf toys to anyone that runs the risk of losing them. 

[Pescado_Rojo 19,587]

I also wonder how much of the improvement over the older stuff is them being connected to our larger networks (Radar, GPS, Satellite data networks, etc) Stuff they won't have access to even with the newer kit. 

[TreatyOak 17,390]

I'm a big fan of the current Belorussian military strategy:

"Mother Russia, we are coming to help you! We are ready to begin. Our soldiers will be marching together with you in victory very soon!! Here we go! We are ready to march shortly! Let this begin, tomorrow, or the next day, for sure! Or maybe the very next day! Onward to certain victory!!!!!

 

 

 

[WhatTheBuck 28,931]

Stavridis had a piece in TIME a couple days ago about what we can learn from the war in Ukraine. A couple of things I noticed were the question about whether the tank was becoming obsolete in modern warfare and the burgeoning technology of “swarm drones.” That was a new concept to me. I’ll post the link and spoiler the article in plain text:

https://time.com/6165506/military-strategy-ukraine-war

Spoiler

What the U.S. Military Needs to Learn from the Ukraine War

BY JAMES STAVRIDIS
APRIL 11, 2022 6:00 AM EDT

As the brutal fighting continues in the Ukraine War, it seems likely to fundamentally upend the way we wage war in the 21st-century. From new tactics to equipment, the Russian invasion of Ukraine may presage fundamental changes in how war is conducted. What can Western militaries learn from the war thus far?

First, the extraordinary success the Ukrainian forces (armed with western technology) are enjoying against Russia armor. The numbers of tanks, armored vehicles, and heavy trucks destroyed by the Ukrainians are almost certainly in the thousands. This is largely the result of the hand-held anti-armor weapons provided by NATO countries (NLAWS from Britain, Javelins from the U.S., etc).

But it is also indicative of a tactical approach by the Ukrainians that fuses the intelligence provided by the West; the portability of the missile and drone systems; the employment of them by small, light special forces teams; and entirely new systems like the Switchblade drones.

Most importantly, each tank and armored vehicle destroyed means more dead Russians. Russian soldiers killed in action probably number around 15,000 over five weeks, which is staggering. As a point of comparison, the U.S. lost 7,000 in twenty years of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

And the lost armor stocks will be difficult to replace in the short term. Each Russian tank costs more than $10 million, but each missile is only a hundred thousand dollars or so. War is hell, as General Sherman said in the American Civil War, but it is also expensive.

Is it time to write the obituary for the tank on the battlefield? Will they turn out to be the battleships of the 21st century, rendered obsolete by new technologies and tactics? It is certainly time to consider reducing tank inventories (as the U.S. Marine Corps is already doing) and using the resources to move toward new systems, notably unmanned. Tanks can still be effectively employed, but must be used in a coherent combined-arms manner that includes protection of them from such “cheap kill” mechanisms.

Second, the concept of close air support is increasingly at risk as well. Alongside the concerns about the efficacy of heavy armor are about the vulnerability of helicopters. We are seeing $18 million Russian attack helicopters destroyed by a hundred thousand dollar stingers—over and over. This was a key tactic in allowing the Afghanistan mujahideen to defeat the Soviet Union in the 1980s. Again, the economics of this, especially for a weak economy like Russia, are daunting, as well as replacing trained pilots.

And that is before new swarm drone systems come into full force. As artificial intelligence becomes a wartime reality, the ability to control large numbers of unmanned systems and operate them in synch to attack large relatively less maneuverable platforms like helicopters and troop transports. We are at the leading edge of achieving this capability, and doing so augers badly for expensive manned aircraft, especially those that operate routinely near to the ground.

The lesson here is not (yet) to fully walk away from manned aircraft providing the close support on the battlefield. But the Ukrainian war is a warning that we should be spending more on research and development that improves unmanned air systems, both in ground attack and in anti-air capacities; leverage improvements in artificial intelligence to make them operate synergistically together; and experiment with such capabilities aggressively to be able to provide close air support from higher altitudes and with unmanned, less expensive vehicles controlled directly by ground forces.

Third, another key factor on the Ukrainian battlefield has been the ability of Western intelligence systems to track Russian formations and provide real-time targeting directly to the Ukrainians. This has led not only to high levels of Russians killed in action, but also to operations killing Russian general officers. This in turn creates chaotic conditions, with numerous reports indicating a lack of coherent command and control on the battlefield, and operations being directed from Moscow.

When I was Supreme Allied Commander at NATO, in strategic command of the Afghan operation, I could not have imagined taking tactical control of 150,000 troops in the field. Yet that is exactly what appears to be happing in Ukraine, with attendant failures. The lesson is that by providing real-time, highly precise targeting to forces in the field, a belligerent can help undermine one of the true centers-of-gravity in combat: a coherent command and control system anchored by capable senior leaders.

Finally, we should learn from the continuing Russian playbook of what are clearly war crimes. We need to appreciate that our opponents are going to utilize horrible tactics that are in fact war crimes: destruction of civilian infrastructure (including internet and cyber systems) with indiscriminate fires; false flag operations replete with deep fake videos; weaponizing civilian populations by creating the conditions for mass movements, taxing the logistics of the nation under attack; utilization of unprincipled mercenaries like the Wagner Group, Chechens, and Syrians; and at least threatening the use of chemical and nuclear weapons.

All of this has been called “hybrid” or “gray zone” warfare, and we’ve seen the Russians go to this list of dirty tricks in Afghanistan, Chechnya, and Syria over the past several decades. We need to do a better job of preparing to face these new realities on the battlefield. Obviously, we will not use these techniques, but we need to reverse engineer and blunt them in our training and equipment choices. This means training our troops to operate in chemical and biological environments more effectively; providing more civil support to local populations to defuse the impact of refugees; sharpen our ability to collect evidence to undermine fake videos and propaganda; and hone our responses to battlefield cyber attacks to include offensive options.

A new tactical triad is emerging in the 21st century battlefield—special forces, unmanned systems, and cyber will be far more important going forward. While legacy systems from tanks to destroyers to close air support aircraft will retain utility, we need to rethink our way of war. Sadly, there is much to learn from the battlefields of Ukraine.

And here’s the link from the TIMES article to a Forbes article about swarm drones; that’s wild stuff:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2021/03/01/what-are-drone-swarms-and-why-does-everyone-suddenly-want-one/

[Longhorn_Fan68 34,106]

25 minutes ago, TreatyOak said:

I'm a big fan of the current Belorussian military strategy:

"Mother Russia, we are coming to help you! We are ready to begin. Our soldiers will be marching together with you in victory very soon!! Here we go! We are ready to march shortly! Let this begin, tomorrow, or the next day, for sure! Or maybe the very next day! Onward to certain victory!!!!!

 

 

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 34,106]

 

[WhatTheBuck 28,931]

Damnit. *TIME. 

[Longhorn_Fan68 34,106]

 

['stache 22,144]

11 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

 

Only 398?

[Brisketexan 106,907]

11 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

 

Well, based on history, that may actually put a crimp in several GOP congress critters' travel plans....

Quote

So, what do we call these Red Square Republicans? My interlocutors on Twitter suggest “Moscow Mules.” Or, given the position they put themselves in before our masters in Moscow, perhaps they should be called the Prostrate Eight: Sens. Richard C. Shelby (Ala.), Steve Daines (Mont.), John Hoeven (N.D.), John Neely Kennedy (La.), Jerry Moran (Kan.), John Thune (S.D.) and Johnson, plus Rep. Kay Granger (Tex.).

 

[RomaVicta 30,599]

18 hours ago, cactusflinthead said:

Mearsheimer might want to quit while he still has friends.

 

You put a face with this kind of crime and it carries so much emotional power. Rape ceases to be abstract. Execution after rape by imagining a bullet tearing into the back of the head of that face fuels outrage. And it should. 

The whole country is being raped and murdered. It's gets harder and harder not to roll the dice on the chance for nuclear war to just smash this evil army once and for all.

Strip away all air cover and mechanized support for these bearded pieces of shit and let Ukrainian soldiers destroy the remaining infantry.

It's so hard not to give the go for that.

[RomaVicta 30,599]

2 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Stavridis had a piece in TIME a couple days ago about what we can learn from the war in Ukraine. A couple of things I noticed were the question about whether the tank was becoming obsolete in modern warfare and the burgeoning technology of “swarm drones.” That was a new concept to me. I’ll post the link and spoiler the article in plain text:

https://time.com/6165506/military-strategy-ukraine-war

  Reveal hidden contents

What the U.S. Military Needs to Learn from the Ukraine War

BY JAMES STAVRIDIS
APRIL 11, 2022 6:00 AM EDT

As the brutal fighting continues in the Ukraine War, it seems likely to fundamentally upend the way we wage war in the 21st-century. From new tactics to equipment, the Russian invasion of Ukraine may presage fundamental changes in how war is conducted. What can Western militaries learn from the war thus far?

First, the extraordinary success the Ukrainian forces (armed with western technology) are enjoying against Russia armor. The numbers of tanks, armored vehicles, and heavy trucks destroyed by the Ukrainians are almost certainly in the thousands. This is largely the result of the hand-held anti-armor weapons provided by NATO countries (NLAWS from Britain, Javelins from the U.S., etc).

But it is also indicative of a tactical approach by the Ukrainians that fuses the intelligence provided by the West; the portability of the missile and drone systems; the employment of them by small, light special forces teams; and entirely new systems like the Switchblade drones.

Most importantly, each tank and armored vehicle destroyed means more dead Russians. Russian soldiers killed in action probably number around 15,000 over five weeks, which is staggering. As a point of comparison, the U.S. lost 7,000 in twenty years of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

And the lost armor stocks will be difficult to replace in the short term. Each Russian tank costs more than $10 million, but each missile is only a hundred thousand dollars or so. War is hell, as General Sherman said in the American Civil War, but it is also expensive.

Is it time to write the obituary for the tank on the battlefield? Will they turn out to be the battleships of the 21st century, rendered obsolete by new technologies and tactics? It is certainly time to consider reducing tank inventories (as the U.S. Marine Corps is already doing) and using the resources to move toward new systems, notably unmanned. Tanks can still be effectively employed, but must be used in a coherent combined-arms manner that includes protection of them from such “cheap kill” mechanisms.

Second, the concept of close air support is increasingly at risk as well. Alongside the concerns about the efficacy of heavy armor are about the vulnerability of helicopters. We are seeing $18 million Russian attack helicopters destroyed by a hundred thousand dollar stingers—over and over. This was a key tactic in allowing the Afghanistan mujahideen to defeat the Soviet Union in the 1980s. Again, the economics of this, especially for a weak economy like Russia, are daunting, as well as replacing trained pilots.

And that is before new swarm drone systems come into full force. As artificial intelligence becomes a wartime reality, the ability to control large numbers of unmanned systems and operate them in synch to attack large relatively less maneuverable platforms like helicopters and troop transports. We are at the leading edge of achieving this capability, and doing so augers badly for expensive manned aircraft, especially those that operate routinely near to the ground.

The lesson here is not (yet) to fully walk away from manned aircraft providing the close support on the battlefield. But the Ukrainian war is a warning that we should be spending more on research and development that improves unmanned air systems, both in ground attack and in anti-air capacities; leverage improvements in artificial intelligence to make them operate synergistically together; and experiment with such capabilities aggressively to be able to provide close air support from higher altitudes and with unmanned, less expensive vehicles controlled directly by ground forces.

Third, another key factor on the Ukrainian battlefield has been the ability of Western intelligence systems to track Russian formations and provide real-time targeting directly to the Ukrainians. This has led not only to high levels of Russians killed in action, but also to operations killing Russian general officers. This in turn creates chaotic conditions, with numerous reports indicating a lack of coherent command and control on the battlefield, and operations being directed from Moscow.

When I was Supreme Allied Commander at NATO, in strategic command of the Afghan operation, I could not have imagined taking tactical control of 150,000 troops in the field. Yet that is exactly what appears to be happing in Ukraine, with attendant failures. The lesson is that by providing real-time, highly precise targeting to forces in the field, a belligerent can help undermine one of the true centers-of-gravity in combat: a coherent command and control system anchored by capable senior leaders.

Finally, we should learn from the continuing Russian playbook of what are clearly war crimes. We need to appreciate that our opponents are going to utilize horrible tactics that are in fact war crimes: destruction of civilian infrastructure (including internet and cyber systems) with indiscriminate fires; false flag operations replete with deep fake videos; weaponizing civilian populations by creating the conditions for mass movements, taxing the logistics of the nation under attack; utilization of unprincipled mercenaries like the Wagner Group, Chechens, and Syrians; and at least threatening the use of chemical and nuclear weapons.

All of this has been called “hybrid” or “gray zone” warfare, and we’ve seen the Russians go to this list of dirty tricks in Afghanistan, Chechnya, and Syria over the past several decades. We need to do a better job of preparing to face these new realities on the battlefield. Obviously, we will not use these techniques, but we need to reverse engineer and blunt them in our training and equipment choices. This means training our troops to operate in chemical and biological environments more effectively; providing more civil support to local populations to defuse the impact of refugees; sharpen our ability to collect evidence to undermine fake videos and propaganda; and hone our responses to battlefield cyber attacks to include offensive options.

A new tactical triad is emerging in the 21st century battlefield—special forces, unmanned systems, and cyber will be far more important going forward. While legacy systems from tanks to destroyers to close air support aircraft will retain utility, we need to rethink our way of war. Sadly, there is much to learn from the battlefields of Ukraine.

And here’s the link from the TIMES article to a Forbes article about swarm drones; that’s wild stuff:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2021/03/01/what-are-drone-swarms-and-why-does-everyone-suddenly-want-one/

For a long time, tanks have only been good for bullying an inferior opponent who presents no threat from the air and limited capability against a better trained American force. Now, as you point out, they're even more vulnerable than ever.

In many ways, it seems to me, tanks are like armored knights trying to find ways to survive the development of firearm. The heavy armor developed was too limiting to the soldier and not effective enough, so the armored knight passed into history.

I don't read as much about the military as I used to, but I do get the impression we're investing more in mobile lightly armored vehicles which, presumably, can be deployed in greater numbers with less logistical requirement. Sort of like the American Sherman in WWII; it wasn't a match for a single heavy German tank, but it was more reliable and more numerous.

I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a tank in real war. Iraqi tankers stayed in fox holes a hundred yards from their vehicles when they weren't on the move. They knew the danger.

Drones may be the bridge to totally vicarious warfare. Or maybe it will make conventional warfare so difficult that it won't break out so much.

[Longhorn_Fan68 34,106]

 

[jimmyjazz 47,219]

[RomaVicta 30,599]

19 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

 

From Wikipedia:

Quote

Neptune (Ukrainian: Р-360 «Нептун», romanized: R-360 "Neptun") is a Ukrainian anti-ship cruise missile developed by Luch Design Bureau.

Neptune's design is based on the Soviet Kh-35 anti-ship missile, with substantially improved range and electronics.[1] The system is designed to defeat surface warships and transport vessels with a displacement of up to 5,000 tons, either in convoys or moving individually.

The system entered service with the Ukrainian Navy in March 2021.[2]

They've lost a half dozen generals, a military supply ship, and now this? 

Fuck the fuck around and fucking find fucking out you fucking motherfucker!