Ukraine War

[Longhorn_Fan68 34103]

49 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

Some in his party and Fucker Carlson is not going to like this.

mitch is in save his ass mode, which as it turns out is his only mode

[The Dog 44854]

 

[Brisketexan 106884]

1 hour ago, The Dog said:

 

They do.  Because that murder was clearly America's and NATO's fault.  See, by not agreeing with Russia on everything, we MADE Russia invade.  We MADE them commit a metric shitton of war crimes, raping and murdering civilians, POWs, etc.  We MADE them do it.  

Well, I mean, Obama did.  And probably Hillary too.  Trump would have prevented it (by giving Russia everything it wants, and more).

[Willfully Horn 8259]

10 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

They do.  Because that murder was clearly America's and NATO's fault.  See, by not agreeing with Russia on everything, we MADE Russia invade.  We MADE them commit a metric shitton of war crimes, raping and murdering civilians, POWs, etc.  We MADE them do it.  

Well, I mean, Obama did.  And probably Hillary too.  Trump would have prevented it (by giving Russia everything it wants, and more).

I’ve read that argument here on Surly. Putin pays in beer.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Willfully Horn
Edit

[atomheartbevo 90641]

39 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

They do.  Because that murder was clearly America's and NATO's fault.  See, by not agreeing with Russia on everything, we MADE Russia invade.  We MADE them commit a metric shitton of war crimes, raping and murdering civilians, POWs, etc.  We MADE them do it.  

Well, I mean, Obama did.  And probably Hillary too.  Trump would have prevented it (by giving Russia everything it wants, and more).

Obama you say?

 

Full clip if anybody needs a good laugh

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by atomheartbevo

[atomheartbevo 90641]

[atomheartbevo 90641]

 

Mr President, we still have Fox News”

 

[MagicSoccerSpray 1736]

 

[WhatTheBuck 28928]

This is kind of funny. I just heard a piece on NPR about the Ukraine war. Among other things, they talked about how intelligence and weapons from the US were helping the Ukrainians. They mentioned the Javelin missile by which a single Ukrainian soldier could take out a Russian tank. But what if the missile system won’t work, they asked? The solution, they said, was that the soldier would use his phone and call someone in Washington state, the guy who originally trained him, and within 30 minutes they’d get the problem fixed.

So basically he called tech support from the battlefield.

I wonder if the call initially went something like, “Try rebooting it and call me back if you’re still having a problem.”

[YGIFS 19458]

^

that's awesome.  I wonder if our tech support guys on that weapons platform pretend to have Ukrainian names to help boost morale on the call? 

"Hello, this is Oleskiy.  It looks like you're calling about the 148-D variant.  Have you tried unplugging it and plugging it back in?"  

[atomheartbevo 90641]

 

Always worry about stuff leaking

[SmokeyTheBear 5569]

When do we feel good enough to put boots on the ground in Ukraine? 

[Horn Dog 10158]

12 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

When do we feel good enough to put boots on the ground in Ukraine? 

[atomheartbevo 90641]

32 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

When do we feel good enough to put boots on the ground in Ukraine? 

Wait, are you saying there aren’t already boots on the ground in Ukraine?

[SmokeyTheBear 5569]

3 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Wait, are you saying there aren’t already boots on the ground in Ukraine?

Officially

But I don't think that'll happen until Crimea is recaptured. Maybe next move would be no fly zone or this is just to clarify moves if Russia destroys a nuclear reactor, or approved actions if/when Putin is removed from power. 

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by SmokeyTheBear

[Pescado_Rojo 19584]

12 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Officially

But I don't think that'll happen until Crimea is recaptured. Maybe next move would be no fly zone or this is just to clarify moves if Russia destroys a nuclear reactor, or approved actions if/when Putin is removed from power. 

 

When this is all over, the first USN ship visit to Sevastopol is gonna be fuckin lit. 

[atomheartbevo 90641]

19 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Officially

But I don't think that'll happen until Crimea is recaptured. Maybe next move would be no fly zone or this is just to clarify moves if Russia destroys a nuclear reactor, or approved actions if/when Putin is removed from power. 

I can’t decide if Russia will destroy a reactor or not, at least intentionally.  They are flirting with it to try and scare the West, but they had their bluff called multiple times, which is why they are bitching on official state TV channels, but. It actually doing it..   The biggest problem is that there will either be fallout on Belarus or Russia, or on a NATO territory, or possibly all three.  

The second biggest problem for Putin doing that is that while he controls the media, he does not control the social media in a timely manner, and an attack on a nuke plant would light up Russian social media in a bad way for him.  The military-aged men who are not currently in uniform, have no desire to be in uniform, and those folks do recognize that fucking with nuke plants is a Really Bad Thing, which will lead to something bigger.

[TwiceHorn 32075]

I think everyone wanted to believe that Russia had turned some kind of corner after the fall of the Soviet Union.  Even with all the corruption.

But once Putin started digging in, more should have realized that it is the same old shit again.  A totalitarian state is a totalitarian state.  It's "politics" and "economic policies" become largely if not totally irrelevant.

[TeeDubya 3362]

My sister's ex-husband got into the furniture business in Latvia and Lithuania about 20 years ago.  He wanted to expand into Moscow, and visited to make some contacts.  He said it was the most corrupt, hand-greasing, third-world, organized crime shit he'd ever dealt with, and he's been in Puerto Rico and Sicily.  He got out of there fast.

[MagicSoccerSpray 1736]

7 hours ago, TeeDubya said:

My sister's ex-husband got into the furniture business in Latvia and Lithuania about 20 years ago.  He wanted to expand into Moscow, and visited to make some contacts.  He said it was the most corrupt, hand-greasing, third-world, organized crime shit he'd ever dealt with, and he's been in Puerto Rico and Sicily.  He got out of there fast.

 

Had a great Uncle who opened a casino in the early 90s in the Baltics, but was threatened and had it stolen by the Russian Mafia. Third world shithole that country is.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13727]

A desperate Putin is now drafting 300,000 ex-soldiers. Fair to say the vast majority of them want nothing to do with this war.

if this doesn’t work for Putin, the only offensive options left are a full draft or nuclear weapons.

Putin is risking his entire regime over this.

[BearSchlong 8239]

This is kind of funny. I just heard a piece on NPR about the Ukraine war. Among other things, they talked about how intelligence and weapons from the US were helping the Ukrainians. They mentioned the Javelin missile by which a single Ukrainian soldier could take out a Russian tank. But what if the missile system won’t work, they asked? The solution, they said, was that the soldier would use his phone and call someone in Washington state, the guy who originally trained him, and within 30 minutes they’d get the problem fixed.
So basically he called tech support from the battlefield.
I wonder if the call initially went something like, “Try rebooting it and call me back if you’re still having a problem.”

And CDW is sitting right across the border in Poland ready to ship in more.

[Longhorn_Fan68 34103]

1 hour ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

A desperate Putin is now drafting 300,000 ex-soldiers. Fair to say the vast majority of them want nothing to do with this war.

if this doesn’t work for Putin, the only offensive options left are a full draft or nuclear weapons.

Putin is risking his entire regime over this.

he's already done that. he's now trying to save his ass

[B00M 6731]

10 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

he's already done that. he's now trying to save his ass

You've gotta be a giant shit stain to see what this war has become and think, you know what, ima send tens of thousands more men to die because golly, I'm worth it.

[WhatTheBuck 28928]

4 minutes ago, B00M said:

You've gotta be a giant shit stain to see what this war has become and think, you know what, ima send tens of thousands more men to die because golly, I'm worth it.

Especially when guys he thought would have his back like Xi, Modi, and Erdogan have all told him he’s on his own. Erdogan, speaking at the UN yesterday, said Putin should get out of Ukraine and give them back their territory. So I guess he’s down to, what?, Syria, Belarus, and N. Korea who haven’t been critical of his actions? And Belarus is already a puppet state. 

[Tuco 5093]

2 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

A desperate Putin is now drafting 300,000 ex-soldiers. Fair to say the vast majority of them want nothing to do with this war.

if this doesn’t work for Putin, the only offensive options left are a full draft or nuclear weapons.

Putin is risking his entire regime over this.

Also included in the decree: 

Quote

Another key clause in the decree prevents most professional soldiers from terminating their contracts and leaving service until the partial mobilization is no longer in place.

That's got to be a kick in the balls for the Russian soldiers who are on the ground now.  They are there for the duration.  There are five ways out: victory, defeat, death, debilitating injury, or desertion.  Maybe Putin figures that will commit them to victory.  But, with every Ukrainian victory, that path seems further out of reach.  And, for the average Russian soldier, the differences between victory and defeat are inconsequential.  It's not like he's defending his homeland.  

[Longhorn_Fan68 34103]

better send in the military to come round them up! oh wait

 

[Tuco 5093]

In a lot of ways, that's more impactful than mass protests.  One of the most powerful incarnations of non-violent resistances is widespread strikes.  There are currently 20 miles worth of people who aren't showing up tomorrow, or the next day, or the day after.  Those are empty chairs in the power plant* control room.  Those are loaded delivery trucks parked indefinitely.  Cancelled doctor appointments and shuttered repair shops.  It is certainly a sign that Putin can't realistically go to a full draft, not without instituting Soviet-era emigration policies.  Shit is getting real in the homeland.  

 

*Power plants, particularly nukes, have a disproportionate percentage of former Navy. At least in the US.  

[Longhorn_Fan68 34103]

17 minutes ago, Tuco said:

In a lot of ways, that's more impactful than mass protests.  One of the most powerful incarnations of non-violent resistances is widespread strikes.  There are currently 20 miles worth of people who aren't showing up tomorrow, or the next day, or the day after.  Those are empty chairs in the power plant* control room.  Those are loaded delivery trucks parked indefinitely.  Cancelled doctor appointments and shuttered repair shops.  It is certainly a sign that Putin can't realistically go to a full draft, not without instituting Soviet-era emigration policies.  Shit is getting real in the homeland.  

 

*Power plants, particularly nukes, have a disproportionate percentage of former Navy. At least in the US.  

just takes one brave person to change all of this

[Brisketexan 106884]

2 hours ago, B00M said:

You've gotta be a giant shit stain to see what this war has become and think, you know what, ima send tens of thousands more men to die because golly, I'm worth it.

He doesn't care how many people die.  Thousands?  Hundreds of thousands?  Millions?  None of that matters, SO LONG as he is not one of them.

This is how narcissists work.  Anything that happens to someone OTHER than them doesn't matter.  At all.  Not even a little bit.  No empathy, no sympathy, no humanity.  We are seeing in Russia how a narcissist led state functions.  And, on a troubling side note, it's not much different than it worked here, and will work again if TFG is elected again.  Do you really think Trump gives a rat's ass about any dead US servicemen?  Or 100k dead US servicemen?  He has zero humanity or empathy.  Those are terrifying qualities in a leader because -- as we're seeing with Putin -- it leads them to conclude that a path that kills every other human on the planet is just fine, because all of those dead people aren't him, so who cares?

A cornered narcissist is dangerous.  But he was always going to be -- there's no backing out of this.  By being a pathetic, weak population of slaves and criminals who couldn't help but elevate someone like Putin to godking, Russia set the world up for hell, and now we have to go through it.

[Longhorn_Fan68 34103]

 

[TexPx 2335]

NM

[TexPx 2335]

NM
Furk

[WhatTheBuck 28928]

I don’t know how to say “dirty dozen” in Russian but there’s video out there of a Russian official (or whatever) reportedly recruiting inmates from a Russian prison. Supposedly the deal is that they get their sentences overturned for six months of military service. I saw it first today on BBC and again on CBS. This was posted by NBC five days ago.

 

[AnTiM 1695]

6 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

I don’t know how to say “dirty dozen” in Russian but there’s video out there of a Russian official (or whatever) reportedly recruiting inmates from a Russian prison. Supposedly the deal is that they get their sentences overturned for six months of military service. I saw it first today on BBC and again on CBS. This was posted by NBC five days ago.

 

Good idea, give the convicts guns and let them take over the country.

[Longhorn_Fan68 34103]

 

[Woland 755]

 

Since February, two of my Russian friends managed to get Israeli passports for their kids and themselves. She is already living in Geneva with one kid and he was waiting in Moscow with the other until they could move into their new house in Switzerland.

[Longhorn_Fan68 34103]

4 hours ago, Woland said:

Since February, two of my Russian friends managed to get Israeli passports for their kids and themselves. She is already living in Geneva with one kid and he was waiting in Moscow with the other until they could move into their new house in Switzerland.

I feel for the Russian people. I have met many ex-pats here and in Europe who always say the same thing: our governments hate each other, but we don't. of course, there are plenty nationalist west-hating Russians out there, but there are plenty who are fed up and just want a better life. Hope they get it. They have to earn it, though

[Brisketexan 106884]

Just now, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

I feel for the Russian people. I have met many ex-pats here and in Europe who always say the same thing: our governments hate each other, but we don't. of course, there are plenty nationalist west-hating Russians out there, but there are plenty who are fed up and just want a better life. Hope they get it. They have to earn it, though

This.  They've enabled and chosen this path repeatedly.  Russia is getting what it chose.  Lots of FA.  Now the FO.  If hey want something different or better, they should be less fucking servile and happy to profit from a corrupt and bankrupt system from top to bottom, and actively stand and fight for something better.

Oh, and those soldiers butchering and raping Ukrainians by the truckload, and looting everything not tied down, are not Putin -- they are "Russian people."  We've learned a lot about who Russia STILL is by how its people have conducted themselves in this war.  Don't ignore that.

[Tuco 5093]

This.  They've enabled and chosen this path repeatedly.  Russia is getting what it chose.  Lots of FA.  Now the FO.  If hey want something different or better, they should be less fucking servile and happy to profit from a corrupt and bankrupt system from top to bottom, and actively stand and fight for something better.
Oh, and those soldiers butchering and raping Ukrainians by the truckload, and looting everything not tied down, are not Putin -- they are "Russian people."  We've learned a lot about who Russia STILL is by how its people have conducted themselves in this war.  Don't ignore that.

Yep, while Russian elections are by no means free or fair, there is zero reason to believe that Putin doesn’t rule by consent of the people. And probably by a healthy majority. I’ve said from the beginning, they’re going to need to feel some pain before this thing will end. I’m glad to see they are, because it certainly pales in comparison to what the Ukrainians are experiencing through no fault of their own.
My heart certainly goes out to Russians who oppose Putin and have opposed him for a long time. Like any citizens of a shitty country, there is only so much they can do.
Recalling two things from WW2: 1) George Orwell’s editorial on why it is reasonable that London citizens should be bombed. There is no reason that only young men should bare the brunt of the decisions of their government. 2) Marlene Dietrich’s memoirs (or letters maybe) where she reflects on raising money to buy bombs being dropped on her mother’s home. She knew what was necessary.

[C-Man 27779]

On 9/21/2022 at 11:44 AM, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

just takes one brave person to change all of this

[Satchel 6982]

Putin will be neutralized by oligarchs or a cabal of government insiders…most likely before year’s end. 

[Born to Run 6601]

He doesn't care how many people die.  Thousands?  Hundreds of thousands?  Millions?  None of that matters, SO LONG as he is not one of them.
This is how narcissists work.  Anything that happens to someone OTHER than them doesn't matter.  At all.  Not even a little bit.  No empathy, no sympathy, no humanity.  We are seeing in Russia how a narcissist led state functions.  And, on a troubling side note, it's not much different than it worked here, and will work again if TFG is elected again.  Do you really think Trump gives a rat's ass about any dead US servicemen?  Or 100k dead US servicemen?  He has zero humanity or empathy.  Those are terrifying qualities in a leader because -- as we're seeing with Putin -- it leads them to conclude that a path that kills every other human on the planet is just fine, because all of those dead people aren't him, so who cares?
A cornered narcissist is dangerous.  But he was always going to be -- there's no backing out of this.  By being a pathetic, weak population of slaves and criminals who couldn't help but elevate someone like Putin to godking, Russia set the world up for hell, and now we have to go through it.

By being a pathetic, weak population of slaves and criminals who couldn't help but elevate someone like Trump.... Fixed

Russia is kind of showing us where we could easily go. Propaganda and lies are effective.


Trump craves adulation more than power. He's a game show host, so he would be annoyed by 100k us troops dead because that lowers ratings and is less humans to adore him.

[Born to Run 6601]

This.  They've enabled and chosen this path repeatedly.  Russia is getting what it chose.  Lots of FA.  Now the FO.  If hey want something different or better, they should be less fucking servile and happy to profit from a corrupt and bankrupt system from top to bottom, and actively stand and fight for something better.
Oh, and those soldiers butchering and raping Ukrainians by the truckload, and looting everything not tied down, are not Putin -- they are "Russian people."  We've learned a lot about who Russia STILL is by how its people have conducted themselves in this war.  Don't ignore that.

It's an authoritarian state where any dissent can lead to death. So I have a lot of empathy for the Russian people.

Consider rural Texas. While not as fucked, you have a lot of people just accepting a shitty life. Brain Drain accelerates decline, then the big plant closes down and moves abroad, because profit margins. Poverty, alcoholism, no jobs. You blame others to feel better about your sorry lot and do jack shit to make it better. I may be poor, but I'm not a socialist, Ukraine nazi, Mexican whatever. Your only way out is the military. So you find a measure of pride and self worth in blind patriotism and the military success of your kids or spouse. When someone suggests the War in Afghanistan, err Ukrain is Ill advised you have another OTHER to hate, the peacenik, libtards, patriot haters. Or you keep your head down and cope; and anyway all the stuff on the news is so confusing, and I can't keep up with politics.

Cycle of poverty.
I am curious about how much Russia influenced our current domestic environment versus how much of this is human nature. Russian Influence is greater than zero, even if very small, it worked here very well.

We, as a people, are more like Russians than we may want to admit.

We have better guardrails. Our overlords are still selfish capitalists, and don't give a fuck about living wages. But they are not a kleptocratic mafia state.

Again, we can throw stones, but there is a lotta fucking glass in our own house.

[Horn80 6356]

On 9/19/2022 at 6:59 PM, atomheartbevo said:

Wait, are you saying there aren’t already boots on the ground in Ukraine?

I suspect there are a lot more Americans fighting there than will ever be reported. 

[The Dog 44854]

 

[Woland 755]

The Motherland is like an abusive parent. The good times are awesome enough that you endure a lot of pain before severing the relationship.

[Satchel 6982]

How To Break Arm," Becomes Russia's Top Google Search After Putin Gives 4 Hours To Say Goodbye To Families

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/how-to-break-arm-becomes-russias-top-google-search-after-putin-gives-4-hours-to-say-goodbye-to-families-3369531

[Brisketexan 106884]

It's an authoritarian state where any dissent can lead to death. So I have a lot of empathy for the Russian people.

Consider rural Texas. While not as fucked, you have a lot of people just accepting a shitty life. Brain Drain accelerates decline, then the big plant closes down and moves abroad, because profit margins. Poverty, alcoholism, no jobs. You blame others to feel better about your sorry lot and do jack shit to make it better. I may be poor, but I'm not a socialist, Ukraine nazi, Mexican whatever. Your only way out is the military. So you find a measure of pride and self worth in blind patriotism and the military success of your kids or spouse. When someone suggests the War in Afghanistan, err Ukrain is Ill advised you have another OTHER to hate, the peacenik, libtards, patriot haters. Or you keep your head down and cope; and anyway all the stuff on the news is so confusing, and I can't keep up with politics.

Cycle of poverty.
I am curious about how much Russia influenced our current domestic environment versus how much of this is human nature. Russian Influence is greater than zero, even if very small, it worked here very well.

We, as a people, are more like Russians than we may want to admit.

We have better guardrails. Our overlords are still selfish capitalists, and don't give a fuck about living wages. But they are not a kleptocratic mafia state.

Again, we can throw stones, but there is a lotta fucking glass in our own house.

No disagreement…at all.

[Tuco 5093]

4 hours ago, Born to Run said:

IWe, as a people, are more like Russians than we may want to admit.

We have better guardrails. Our overlords are still selfish capitalists, and don't give a fuck about living wages. But they are not a kleptocratic mafia state.

Again, we can throw stones, but there is a lotta fucking glass in our own house.

Yeah, I know.  

Russians are just people.  But people suck.  And when people are fed a constant stream of hateful bullshit, they suck more.  And when they feel they have lost their rightful position in the world...well, let's just keep piling on parallels shall we.  I don't hate the Russians.  It's just another short story in the Anthology of Human Shittiness to One Another. This isn't new.  What's the Voltaire line "those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities."  I don't know who he was talking about.  Different short story, from long ago.  

But regardless, the solution is the same.  The Russian public has to become disgruntled for this to end, and the only way that happens is if they feel pain. Sanctions were the West's best shot at it.  But that pales in comparison to pulling in a bunch unwilling conscripts from their homes and putting them in harms way for a "Special Military Operation."  And, while not the goal, maybe the end result of feeling the pain is some real, lasting change in their country and how they choose to engage the rest of the planet.  Win win, right.