Ukraine War

[wildcat09 29327]

 

But I'm sure these people would love to negotiate a lasting peace treaty with Ukraine.

[TeeDubya 3361]

Bradley IFV working over a Russian T-90.  

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33857]

[TeeDubya 3361]

Surly level (CR) conversation with dead Russian soldier...  
 

 

[cactusflinthead 27597]

They don't like to talk about this in DT

 

More

 

Edited January 25 by cactusflinthead

[InkaUtexas 25837]

Um, it gets talked about all the time. But the political angle is left off.

What are you implying? DT is trumpkins who don't support Ukraine?

[cactusflinthead 27597]

No it's not a welcome discussion to point out that the delay is the Republicans bowing to Trump.

[InkaUtexas 25837]

2 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

No it's not a welcome discussion to point out that the delay is the Republicans bowing to Trump.

Gets said all the time. This is for politics, that is for news.

[956 Worldwide 34677]

There aren’t many pro-Trump simps in the war thread and people get angry about delayed aid all the time. The thread is fast-moving and maybe the best on the site and mods have specifically shot down any political discussion when it come to GOP fuckery. We all just play by the rules there.  This thread isn’t bad, it just doesn’t get the traffic and ground level discussion so people even forget about it. 
 

 

[cactusflinthead 27597]

46 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Gets said all the time. This is for politics, that is for news.

You might be able to post the link in there on the politics of the aid being purposely delayed, but I would probably get another timeout. News and politics are running in the same road on this issue.

[InkaUtexas 25837]

Just now, cactusflinthead said:

You might be able to post the link in there on the politics of the aid being purposely delayed, but I would probably get another timeout. News and politics are running in the same road on this issue.

Agree, that is why there are two threads. I am not pissing off the overlords to prove a internet point. As was just said, would be nice if this thread got more attention on that aspect.

 

[WhatTheBuck 28764]

I could do without all the war porn in that thread. If you got all your news on the progress of the war from that thread then you might wonder why Russia hasn’t already surrendered. 

[InkaUtexas 25837]

6 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

I could do without all the war porn in that thread. If you got all your news on the progress of the war from that thread then you might wonder why Russia hasn’t already surrendered. 

Yes, most is pro-Ukraine, and one reason is Russians are not as vocal. I agree. I left twitter, and I know of at least 1 more on this forum who did the same, because it was too much.

But I would not say DT is pro-Trump, Anti-Ukraine at all.

If people want to dicuss the politics, like Turkey saying Sweden can join NATO, lets discuss. And rules.

 

[atomheartbevo 89610]

1 hour ago, cactusflinthead said:

No it's not a welcome discussion to point out that the delay is the Republicans bowing to Trump.

It’s on the level of Nixon fucking around with Vietnam when LBJ was in office, or Reagan when Carter was in office.

Seems to be a trend with Republican Presidential candidates trying to cause problems for the country to help themselves win.

[wildcat09 29327]

Washington Post has removed the tab for the war in Ukraine from the top of their homepage. Seems they think interest is waning or that they want it to wane. 

[956 Worldwide 34677]

The American people have only room for one conflict at a time and we switched to Israel because that gets emotions higher. 
 

McConnell oddly seems to care about Ukraine, but not enough to outweigh his (and the entire) GOPs goals of destroying the United States sources of stability and prosperity at home and abroad. This really is the agenda and abandoning Ukraine helps that goal so that’s what they’ll do.  

[Ghost of LL 15531]

42 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The American people have only room for one conflict at a time and we switched to Israel because that gets emotions higher. 
 

McConnell oddly seems to care about Ukraine, but not enough to outweigh his (and the entire) GOPs goals of destroying the United States sources of stability and prosperity at home and abroad. This really is the agenda and abandoning Ukraine helps that goal so that’s what they’ll do.  

McConnell does care about Ukraine.  And he does care about the United States.*

And that's why he's running to everyone from The Washington Post to Punchbowl News saying that the Border/Ukraine deal is dead because he doesn't want to hurt Trump.  And that message is now gaining traction out in the world.  So it perversely puts pressure on the Republicans to pass this legislation because it threatens to lay the failure on immigration on their doorstep.

McConnell has just taking a lot of the steam out of Trump's attacks on immigration.  And the purpose of that is to get money for Ukraine.

So yeah--I'm oddly more confident of Ukraine funding today than I was 48 hours ago.

 

 

 

* Please do not mistake this as an apologia for Mitch McConnell.  His vision of the United States is a white-christian nationalist vision.  It's absolutely repellant.  But worse--to attain that vision, he has undermined the United States Senate as an institution and damaged American political culture, perhaps irretrievably.  Mitch McConnell will go down in history as not only one of the worst politicians in American history, but as someone who imperiled the Republic for his own political benefit.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33857]

I just can't fathom having to destroy your own infrastructure in order to protect yourself from invasion. America has enjoyed isolated protection for quite some time. Hopefully that remains true for at leas the rest of my life

 

[956 Worldwide 34677]

42 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

McConnell does care about Ukraine.  And he does care about the United States.*

And that's why he's running to everyone from The Washington Post to Punchbowl News saying that the Border/Ukraine deal is dead because he doesn't want to hurt Trump.  And that message is now gaining traction out in the world.  So it perversely puts pressure on the Republicans to pass this legislation because it threatens to lay the failure on immigration on their doorstep.

McConnell has just taking a lot of the steam out of Trump's attacks on immigration.  And the purpose of that is to get money for Ukraine.

So yeah--I'm oddly more confident of Ukraine funding today than I was 48 hours ago.

 

 

 

* Please do not mistake this as an apologia for Mitch McConnell.  His vision of the United States is a white-christian nationalist vision.  It's absolutely repellant.  But worse--to attain that vision, he has undermined the United States Senate as an institution and damaged American political culture, perhaps irretrievably.  Mitch McConnell will go down in history as not only one of the worst politicians in American history, but as someone who imperiled the Republic for his own political benefit.

From your lips to Gods ears. Equally likely that this all gets killed like this:

MITCH BROKEN OLD CROW MCCONNELL AND HIS DEEP STATE RINO MAFIA WANT TO COMPROMISE WITH THE FAR LEFT TRAITORS AND LET CORRUPT BIDEN SEND MORE MONEY TO A VERY BAD PLACE CALLED UKRAINE. THEY ALSO WANT TO CONTINUE THE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT INVASION FOR MORE DEEP STATE FRAUD VOTES. SAD! ONLY I CAN FIX THE BORDER AND MAKE PEACE WITH PUTIN, A VERY SMART MAN. 

[Judge Roybeanbag 11817]

5 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

I could do without all the war porn in that thread. If you got all your news on the progress of the war from that thread then you might wonder why Russia hasn’t already surrendered. 

IMO we need more war porn.  Maybe it would help make people realize the literal hell that murderous authoritarian leaders like Putin are making their people and the entirety of Ukraine go through, and maybe help us avoid the same fate.  JK we're fucked.

Edited January 25 by Judge Roybeanbag

[TeeDubya 3361]

Russian T-80 ingests a AFU FPV drone.
 

 

[Schulz2.0 28941]

12 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

I could do without all the war porn in that thread. If you got all your news on the progress of the war from that thread then you might wonder why Russia hasn’t already surrendered. 

[bolverk 29638]

Edit: I see the communist youth support for Russia discussion was deleted. I'm going to keep this here anyway if you care to discuss it further @Bevo

You made the false assertion that since young people have a more favorable view of communism, they'd also have a more favorable view of Russia/Putin when that's plainly not the case.

Let's break it down shall we?

According to Pew, as of last May, 91% view Russia unfavorably, and 64% see that country as an enemy.

 

Yes, younger Americans express slightly less antipathy towards Russia (12% favorable for 18-29-year-olds and 8% favorable for 30-49-year-olds), but it doesn't appear to be based on a politically liberal stance. And, yet, 8% of conservative Republicans have a favorable view of Russia while 5% of liberal Democrats have one. Interestingly, as people achieve higher levels of educational attainment, their favorable views of Russia decline.

 

 

So, what do you think accounts for the more favorable view that young people, the uneducated, and conservative Republicans have toward Russia?

If I were to make a hypothesis, it would be that some young people are just ill-informed and/or naive. I would also postulate that some young people have also been influenced by populists, ultra-nationalists, the Neo-Nazis, the Far Right, the New Right, and/or the Alt-Right.

You do recall that Russia has played host to those groups. From the WSJ, http://www.wsj.com/articles/far-right-flocks-to-russia-to-berate-the-west-1427059613 (if you have a subscription) or https://archive.is/vSJnP (if you don't).

The Kremlin supported Le Pen's far-right Nationally Rally Party in France's last presidential election and has long been suspected of supporting Britain's right-wing UKIP party in the Brexit vote. Germany's far-right AfD party has had reciprocal support for Russia for years, and many prominent Right Wing voices in America, like Tucker Carlson, have expressed support for Russia.

And we know that Trump was supported by Russia in 2016 and the NRA was used by Russia to support Trump. And, of course, there was that whole Trump siding with Putin in Helsinki matter.

 

If you can't see the ties between the historically anti-communist Right with notably non-communist Russia by now, then I can't really help you any further.

Edited February 1 by bolverk

[Bevo 13541]

39 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Edit: I see the communist youth support for Russia discussion was deleted. I'm going to keep this here anyway if you care to discuss it further @Bevo

You made the false assertion that since young people have a more favorable view of communism, they'd also have a more favorable view of Russia/Putin when that's plainly not the case.

Let's break it down shall we?

According to Pew, as of last May, 91% view Russia unfavorably, and 64% see that country as an enemy.

 

Yes, younger Americans express slightly less antipathy towards Russia (12% favorable for 18-29-year-olds and 8% favorable for 30-49-year-olds), but it doesn't appear to be based on a politically liberal stance. And, yet, 8% of conservative Republicans have a favorable view of Russia while 8% of liberal Democrats have one. Interestingly, as people achieve higher levels of educational attainment, their favorable views of Russia decline.

 

 

So, what do you think accounts for the more favorable view that young people, the uneducated, and conservative Republicans have toward Russia?

If I were to make a hypothesis, it would be that some young people are just ill-informed and/or naive. I would also postulate that some young people have also been influenced by populists, ultra-nationalists, the Neo-Nazis, the Far Right, the New Right, and/or the Alt-Right.

You do recall that Russia has played host to those groups. From the WSJ, http://www.wsj.com/articles/far-right-flocks-to-russia-to-berate-the-west-1427059613 (if you have a subscription) or https://archive.is/vSJnP (if you don't).

The Kremlin supported Le Pen's far-right Nationally Rally Party in France's last presidential election and has long been suspected of supporting Britain's right-wing UKIP party in the Brexit vote. Germany's far-right AfD party has had reciprocal support for Russia for years, and many prominent Right Wing voices in America, like Tucker Carlson, have expressed support for Russia.

And we know that Trump was supported by Russia in 2016 and the NRA was used by Russia to support Trump. And, of course, there was that whole Trump siding with Putin in Helsinki matter.

 

If you can't see the ties between the historically anti-communist Right with notably non-communist Russia by now, then I can't really help you any further.

 

Nah, that's not cloak room material at all. And no I don't want to discuss it with you there. I want this thread to be focused on the war in Ukraine and not be interrupted daily by "sly" remarks from Brisket. It is a huge distraction to the topic and leaves people to either give their thumbs up of approval (like yourself) or to let it slide and ignore the "backhanded" comments or get the thread immediately turned into a cloak room discussion followed by a flurry of deleted posts by the moderators. Just give it a break. You should know better.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33857]

This is nuts. Ukraine does not even have a navy and they have managed to take out ~20% of the Black Sea Fleet

 

 

Edited February 1 by Longhorn_Fan68

[bolverk 29638]

2 minutes ago, Bevo said:

 

Nah, that's not cloak room material at all. And no I don't want to discuss it with you there. I want this thread to be focused on the war in Ukraine and not be interrupted daily by "sly" remarks from Brisket. It is a huge distraction to the topic and leaves people to either give their thumbs up of approval (like yourself) or to let it slide and ignore the "backhanded" comments or get the thread immediately turned into a cloak room discussion followed by a flurry of deleted posts by the moderators. Just give it a break. You should know better.

This is the Cloak Room. That's why I responded over here. Agreed that the political shit belongs in here and not over there. 

[Bevo 13541]

5 minutes ago, bolverk said:

This is the Cloak Room. That's why I responded over here. Agreed that the political shit belongs in here and not over there. 

 

Fuck, how did that happen?

[bolverk 29638]

3 minutes ago, Bevo said:

 

Fuck, how did that happen?

Click the three dots in the upper right-hand portion of a post and hit "share". Copy that link and post it elsewhere on the site, and then you can reply to anywhere you'd like. That's what I did in this case.

But I guess you don't want to discuss the ties between the Kremlin and the far-right in America and Europe because you'd rather continue the illusion that the party you support isn't the same party it once was. Do you think that Reagan, Bush Sr., and Bush Jr. would be turning their backs on an authoritarian menace in Europe like much of your party's leadership is doing today?

There once was a time when the GOP was renowned for having robust international policies dedicated to supporting our allies, but those days are gone. It seems that conservatives have instead decided to look inward and become isolationists. Hell, I'd say most "conservatives" are now simply populists. I'd argue the reasons are two-fold for this isolationism: 1) Bush Jr's disastrous invasion of Iraq made Republicans become disillusioned, and 2) Russia's mouthpieces like Tucker Carlson et al told y'all not to care anymore.

And to be clear, I don't think you support Putin. You obviously give a shit. But you should note how much of your party's leadership is blocking efforts to support Ukraine and is ambivalent towards NATO, and that's exactly what many of today's conservatives want.

'

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2023/05/10/americans-hold-positive-feelings-toward-nato-and-ukraine-see-russia-as-an-enemy/

[Longhorn_Fan68 33857]

 

 

[Bevo 13541]

56 minutes ago, bolverk said:

But I guess you don't want to discuss the ties between the Kremlin and the far-right in America and Europe because you'd rather continue the illusion that the party you support isn't the same party it once was. Do you think that Reagan, Bush Sr., and Bush Jr. would be turning their backs on an authoritarian menace in Europe like much of your party's leadership is doing today?

There once was a time when the GOP was renowned for having robust international policies dedicated to supporting our allies, but those days are gone. It seems that conservatives have instead decided to look inward and become isolationists. Hell, I'd say most "conservatives" are now simply populists. I'd argue the reasons are two-fold for this isolationism: 1) Bush Jr's disastrous invasion of Iraq made Republicans become disillusioned, and 2) Russia's mouthpieces like Tucker Carlson et al told y'all not to care anymore.

Nah, I hate the cloak room. What's the point?

[bolverk 29638]

Apologies to @RomaVicta for cross-posting, but its application is universal.

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33857]

 

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33857]

1 hour ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

This is nuts. Ukraine does not even have a navy and they have managed to take out ~20% of the Black Sea Fleet

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

 

 

Q: if I were to post the two above links on the DT thread, would it pass muster? the only thing I can think that might be political are the hashtags, but I cannot edit those. just wondering what actually flies over there. then again, do I even bother?

Edited February 1 by Longhorn_Fan68

[bolverk 29638]

6 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

 

Q: if I were to post the two above links on the DT thread, would it pass muster? the only thing I can think that might be political are the hashtags, but I cannot edit those. just wondering what actually flies over there. then again, do I even bother?

They're fine. Those are par for the course in the DT thread. I haven't checked it since earlier this morning, but the first two I think are already there.

Edit: @Longhorn_Fan68 It's a very PRO-Ukraine thread with only occasional dissent, primarily drive-by posts from GRhorn socks that get nuked immediately. Definitely, post that third one. It's an impressive as fuck visualization. 

Edited February 1 by bolverk

[956 Worldwide 34677]

2 hours ago, bolverk said:

Edit: I see the communist youth support for Russia discussion was deleted. I'm going to keep this here anyway if you care to discuss it further @Bevo

You made the false assertion that since young people have a more favorable view of communism, they'd also have a more favorable view of Russia/Putin when that's plainly not the case.

Let's break it down shall we?

According to Pew, as of last May, 91% view Russia unfavorably, and 64% see that country as an enemy.

 

Yes, younger Americans express slightly less antipathy towards Russia (12% favorable for 18-29-year-olds and 8% favorable for 30-49-year-olds), but it doesn't appear to be based on a politically liberal stance. And, yet, 8% of conservative Republicans have a favorable view of Russia while 5% of liberal Democrats have one. Interestingly, as people achieve higher levels of educational attainment, their favorable views of Russia decline.

 

 

So, what do you think accounts for the more favorable view that young people, the uneducated, and conservative Republicans have toward Russia?

If I were to make a hypothesis, it would be that some young people are just ill-informed and/or naive. I would also postulate that some young people have also been influenced by populists, ultra-nationalists, the Neo-Nazis, the Far Right, the New Right, and/or the Alt-Right.

You do recall that Russia has played host to those groups. From the WSJ, http://www.wsj.com/articles/far-right-flocks-to-russia-to-berate-the-west-1427059613 (if you have a subscription) or https://archive.is/vSJnP (if you don't).

The Kremlin supported Le Pen's far-right Nationally Rally Party in France's last presidential election and has long been suspected of supporting Britain's right-wing UKIP party in the Brexit vote. Germany's far-right AfD party has had reciprocal support for Russia for years, and many prominent Right Wing voices in America, like Tucker Carlson, have expressed support for Russia.

And we know that Trump was supported by Russia in 2016 and the NRA was used by Russia to support Trump. And, of course, there was that whole Trump siding with Putin in Helsinki matter.

 

If you can't see the ties between the historically anti-communist Right with notably non-communist Russia by now, then I can't really help you any further.

The USSR exploited ideology and modern Russia exploits vibes.  Russia effectively leverages far-right and far-right anti-system actors across the West and United States. 
 

The far-right is more likely to project explicit messages of support for Russia as a “traditional Christian” country and endorse its war aims in Ukraine explicitly. 
 

The far-left is more likely (in the U.S. and Western Europe but not elsewhere) to argue that while Russia’s war is not good, anything the U.S. or its Allies do to oppose it is worse and must be stopped. Further East they simply endorse war aims. 
 

Both of these messages are of equal use to the Kremlin.  You’ve mentioned AfD and Le Pen, which forged Kremlin ties as a response to the migrant crisis. The new BSW party in Germany is approaching the set from the left as an “anti-war” spinoff of far-left Die Linke. The Corbyn wing of Labour is the most reliable public messenger of “Russia isn’t good but stopping Russia is worse” in the UK. In Central and Eastern Europe the Kremlin uses a mix of nationalist, leftist, unreformed Communists, and corrupt Social Democrats as their proxies. 
 

Actual support for Russia is not as important as capturing influencers and other key figures; one Jackson Hinkle or MTG or Briahna Joy Gray is more valuable than thousands of their followers. The goal is to shape the ground of the debate (achievable) and not win it.  These figures also allow to present the illusion of deep division where none exists. 
 

TL; DR: Pay attention to vibes and not ideology because that’s what the adversary cares about. People who are angry, anti-system, and cynical are potential future vectors, useful idiots, or proxies. Left or right ain’t got much to do with it. Being a normie is a good prophylaxis against Kremlin exploitation. 

[tx 3 putt 76806]

 

[atomheartbevo 89610]

6 hours ago, bolverk said:

There once was a time when the GOP was renowned for having robust international policies dedicated to supporting our allies, but those days are gone. It seems that conservatives have instead decided to look inward and become isolationists.

Republicans also used to understand that a huge part of the reason why we had a Big Fucking Navy was the same reason the Brits, Spaniards, Dutch, French, etc., all did at various times in history - to make sure that our companies can do their thing around the globe and that raw materials and finished goods can be easily moved around the globe to wherever we are selling or buying from.  Countries like Russia being allowed to invade countries at will and disrupt markets used to be understood as being a bad thing - politicians and governments understood that if say Russia decides to disrupt food supplies to Africa (either the actual supplies or the costs), it would put African refugees on the move towards other places (say Europe, or in the Americas, from South America to the US borders), or undermine stable governments.  Or if countries like Iran were allowed to disrupt shipping (oil and otherwise) it could destabilize nations, drive up prices for the average consumer and business.

In other words, a robust foreign policy and the military (and will) to back it were key to a successful American economy post-World We Ii.

I don’t know when so many educated Republican politicians forget the basics of Business/Economics 101 (feels like it was before Trump), but you would have thought that the ship getting stuck in the Suez Canal or COVID disrupting Chinese supply chains would have been a major reminder.

But good luck finding Republicans in Congress who actually A) understand that and B) aren’t scared of what Daddy Trump will say.

[cactusflinthead 27597]

 

[TeeDubya 3361]

No one is shooting at them, and these drunk ass orcs drive into each other....
 

 

[bolverk 29638]

Germany continues to struggle with its defense role in Europe, even as it faces the possibility of Trump fucking over NATO.

Germany Braces for Decades of Confrontation With Russia
Leaders are sounding alarms about growing threats, but Chancellor Olaf Scholz is wary of pushing the Kremlin, and his own ambivalent public, too far.

Defense Minister Boris Pistorius has begun warning Germans that they should prepare for decades of confrontation with Russia — and that they must speedily rebuild the country’s military in case Vladimir V. Putin does not plan to stop at the border with Ukraine.

Russia’s military, he has said in a series of recent interviews with German news media, is fully occupied with Ukraine. But if there is a truce, and Mr. Putin, Russia’s president, has a few years to reset, he thinks the Russian leader will consider testing NATO’s unity.

“Nobody knows how or whether this will last,” Mr. Pistorius said of the current war, arguing for a rapid buildup in the size of the German military and a restocking of its arsenal.

Mr. Pistorius’s public warnings reflect a significant shift at the top levels of leadership in a country that has shunned a strong military since the end of the Cold War. The alarm is growing louder, but the German public remains unconvinced that the security of Germany and Europe has been fundamentally threatened by a newly aggressive Russia.

The defense minister’s post in Germany is often a political dead end. But Mr. Pistorius’s status as one of the country’s most popular politicians has given him a freedom to speak that others — including his boss, Chancellor Olaf Scholz — do not enjoy.

As Mr. Scholz prepares to meet President Biden at the White House on Friday, many in the German government say that there is no going back to business as usual with Mr. Putin’s Russia, that they anticipate little progress this year in Ukraine and that they fear the consequences should Mr. Putin prevail there.

Those fears have now mixed with discussions about what will happen to NATO if former President Donald J. Trump is elected and has a second chance to act on his instinct to pull the United States out of the alliance.

cont'd:

Spoiler

The prospect of a re-elected Mr. Trump has German officials and many of their fellow NATO counterparts informally discussing whether the nearly 75-year-old alliance structure they are planning to celebrate in Washington this year can survive without the United States at its center. Many German officials say that Mr. Putin’s best strategic hope is NATO’s fracture.

For the Germans in particular, it is an astounding reversal of thinking. Only a year ago NATO was celebrating a new sense of purpose and a new unity, and many were confidently predicting Mr. Putin was on the run.

But now, with an undependable America, an aggressive Russia and a striving China, as well as a seemingly stalemated war in Ukraine and a deeply unpopular conflict in Gaza, German officials are beginning to talk about the emergence of a new, complicated and troubling world, with severe consequences for European and trans-Atlantic security.

Their immediate concern is growing pessimism that the United States will continue to fund Ukraine’s struggle, just as Germany, the second-largest contributor, has agreed to double its contribution this year, to about $8.5 billion.

Now, some of Mr. Pistorius’s colleagues are warning that if American funding dries up and Russia prevails, its next target will be closer to Berlin.

“If Ukraine were forced to surrender, that would not satisfy Russia’s hunger for power,” the chief of Germany’s intelligence service, Bruno Kahl, said last week. “If the West does not demonstrate a clear readiness to defend, Putin will have no reason not to attack NATO anymore.”

But when they are pressed about a possible conflict with Russia, or the future of NATO, German politicians speak carefully.

In the decades since the Soviet Union collapsed, most Germans have grown accustomed to the notions that the country’s security would be assured if it worked with Russia, not against it, and that China is a necessary partner with a critical market for German automobiles and equipment.

Even today, Mr. Scholz, a Social Democrat whose party traditionally sought decent ties with Moscow, seems reluctant to discuss the far more confrontational future with Russia or China that German defense and intelligence chiefs describe so vividly.

With the exception of Mr. Pistorius, little known before he was picked to run the Defense Ministry a year ago, few politicians will take on the subject in public. Mr. Scholz is especially careful, tending to Germany’s relationship with the United States and wary of pushing Russia and its unpredictable president too hard.

Two years ago, he declared a new era for Germany — a “Zeitenwende,” or a historic turning point, in German security policy, one that he said would be marked by a significant shift in spending and strategic thinking. He made good on a promise to allocate an extra 100 billion euros for military spending over four years.

This year, for the first time, Germany will spend 2 percent of its gross domestic product on the military, reaching the goal that all NATO countries agreed to in 2014, after the Russian annexation of Crimea, but that most experts warn is now too low. And Germany has committed to beefing up NATO’s eastern flank against Russia by promising to permanently station a brigade in Lithuania by 2027.

Yet in other ways, Mr. Scholz has moved with great caution. He has opposed — along with Mr. Biden — setting a timetable for Ukraine’s eventual entry into the alliance.

The most vivid example of his caution is his continued refusal to provide Ukraine a long-range, air-launched cruise missile called the Taurus.

Last year, Britain and France gave Ukraine their closest equivalent, the Storm Shadow/SCALP, and it has been used to devastate Russian ships in Crimean ports — and to force Russia to pull back its fleet. Mr. Biden reluctantly agreed to provide ATACMS, a similar missile though with a range limited to about 100 miles, to Ukraine in the fall.

The Taurus has a range of more than 300 miles, meaning Ukraine could use it to strike deep into Russia. And Mr. Scholz is not willing to take that chance — nor is the country’s Bundestag, which voted against a resolution calling for the transfer. While the decision seems to fit German opinion, Mr. Scholz wants to avoid the subject.

But if he remains reluctant to push Mr. Putin too hard, it is a caution Germans share.

Polls show that Germans want to see a more capable German military. But only 38 percent of those surveyed said they wanted their country to be more involved in international crises, the lowest figure since that question began to be asked in 2017, according to the Körber Foundation, which conducted the survey. Of that group, 76 percent said the engagement should be primarily diplomatic, and 71 percent were against a military leadership role for Germany in Europe.

German military officials recently set off a small outcry when they suggested that the country must be “kriegstüchtig,” which roughly translates to the ability to fight and win a war.

Norbert Röttgen, an opposition legislator and a foreign policy expert with the Christian Democrats, said the term was regarded as “rhetorical overreach” and quickly dropped.

“Scholz has always said that ‘Ukraine must not lose but Russia must not win,’ which indicated that he’s always thought of an impasse that would lead to a diplomatic process,” Mr. Röttgen said. “He thinks of Russia as more important than all the countries between us and them, and he lacks a European sense and of his possible role as a European leader.”

Mr. Röttgen and other critics of Mr. Scholz think he is losing a historic opportunity to lead the creation of a European defense ability that is far less dependent on the American military and nuclear deterrent.

But Mr. Scholz clearly feels most comfortable relying heavily on Washington, and senior German officials say he especially mistrusts Emmanuel Macron, the president of France, who has argued for European “strategic autonomy.” Mr. Macron has found few followers on the continent.

Even Mr. Scholz’s main European defense initiative, a coordinated ground-based air defense against ballistic missiles known as Sky Shield, depends on a mix of American, American-Israeli and German missile systems. That has angered the French, Italians, Spanish and Poles, who have not joined, arguing that an Italian-French system should have been used.

Mr. Scholz’s ambitions are also hamstrung by his increasingly weak economy. It shrank 0.3 percent last year, and roughly the same is expected in 2024. The cost of the Ukraine war and China’s economic problems — which have hit the auto and manufacturing sectors hardest — have exacerbated the problem.

While Mr. Scholz acknowledges that the world has changed, “he is not saying that we must change with it,” said Ulrich Speck, a German analyst.

“He is saying that the world has changed and that we will protect you,” Mr. Speck said.

But doing so may well require far more military spending — upward of 3 percent of Germany’s gross domestic product. For now, few in Mr. Scholz’s party dare suggest going that far.

Germans, and even the Social Democrats, “have come to the realization that Germany lives in the real world and that hard power matters,” said Charles A. Kupchan, a Europe expert at Georgetown University.

“At the same time,” he said, “there’s still this hope that this is all just a bad dream, and Germans will wake up and be back in the old world.”

 

[956 Worldwide 34677]

 
 

After the war we kept Ezra Pound in an open-air cage in Italy and I absolutely recommend this for Tucker. 

Edited February 3 by 956 Worldwide

[atomheartbevo 89610]

At least he’s not trying to hide his allegiance any more.  

[cactusflinthead 27597]

 

[956 Worldwide 34677]

Nothing but contempt for this party and everyone associated with it. Letting our friends get killed by Russians and making America weaker just because of one man, who is not the president.

 

[Brisketexan 104956]

Nothing but contempt for this party and everyone associated with it. Letting our friends get killed by Russians and making America weaker just because of one man, who is not the president.

 

Because…and this is really important…the GQP is a terrorist organization. It checks all the boxes.

[956 Worldwide 34677]

 

“Its”

 

 

Edited February 4 by 956 Worldwide

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13562]

I depend on the guy whose lies cost his employer 787 million to tell us the truth! 

[956 Worldwide 34677]

Reading the tea leaves I think we are tossing Ukraine overboard.  There won’t be another big package until MAYBE after the general and then only if Trump loses.  This is nearly all the fault of the GOP but the Sullivan approach for the 1.5 years we had was frankly uninspired. 

American foreign policy has gone the way of the nation. Neurotic and timid on the left, insane and hateful from the right. 
 

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/01/15/what-foreign-diplomats-say-about-u-s-politics-behind-closed-doors-00135326 

Quote

The U.S. is a “fat buffalo trying to take a nap” as hungry wolves approach, the envoy mused. “I can hear those Champagne bottle corks popping in Moscow — like it’s Christmas every fucking day.”

As voters cast ballots in the Iowa caucuses Monday, many in the United States see this year’s presidential election as a test of American democracy. But, in a series of conversations with a dozen current and former diplomats, I sensed that to many of our friends abroad, the U.S. is already failing that test.

 

 

[texastough 1129]

18 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Reading the tea leaves I think we are tossing Ukraine overboard.  There won’t be another big package until MAYBE after the general and then only if Trump loses.  This is nearly all the fault of the GOP but the Sullivan approach for the 1.5 years we had was frankly uninspired. 

American foreign policy has gone the way of the nation. Neurotic and timid on the left, insane and hateful from the right. 
 

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/01/15/what-foreign-diplomats-say-about-u-s-politics-behind-closed-doors-00135326 

 

Are we out of workarounds like lend/lease, presidential drawdown authority, creative accounting, etc.?