Ukraine War

[Dahobbs 17515]

35 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

You seem particularly fragile, and fold up easily to run back to your blankey. 

Yes, you're oh so clever arguments that are definitely not transparent regurgitation of Russian propaganda points have me shook. 

Again, explain for the audience how the US negotiating to give up Ukrainian land is good for Ukraine, the US, justice, the world, or really anyone but Russia. Bonus points if you dance around the topic by mentioning history and context all while really not denying your blatantly Russia favorable position and while saying very little of substance. 

[956 Worldwide 34677]

[Dahobbs 17515]

See, @Anastasis became deeply suspicious of the US military industrial complex during his political formative years. He became convinced that weakening it was the most important thing to improve the world. To that end, he aligns himself with murders, rapists, and war mongers. He will gladly sacrifice every man, woman, and child in Ukraine. Anything is worth the cost if it gives the old US of A a black eye. He ignores his blatant hypocrisy because he believes the US is responsible for all the world's ills. He is blithely unaware that he displays all the moral backbone and intellectual rigor of an earthworm. A comparatively intelligent earthworm to be sure. But ultimately he is still just pink, wiggly flesh covered in shit. 

Edited February 10 by Dahobbs

[956 Worldwide 34677]

10 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

See, @Anastasis became deeply suspicious of the US military industrial complex during his political formative years. He became convinced that weakening it was the most important thing to improve the world. To that end, he aligns himself with murders, rapists, and war mongers. He will gladly sacrifice every man, woman, and child in Ukraine. Anything is worth the cost if it gives the old US of A a black eye. He ignores his blatant hypocrisy because he believes the US is responsible for all the world's ills. He is blithely unaware that he displays all the moral backbone and intellectual rigor of an earthworm. A comparatively intelligent earthworm to be sure. But ultimately he is still just pink, wiggly flesh covered in shit. 

This is fundamentally correct, it’s all about anger over other stuff leading you down to a sewer of bad-faith actors who are happy to provide the framework for your pre-existing position. 
 

Add to that a conspiratorial world view. And an inability to accept that people can be sometimes right and sometimes wrong, and a confusion of “wrong” with “evil.”  This explains the obsession with cameo characters like David Frum and Nuland. 

[Anastasis 23447]

53 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Yes, you're oh so clever arguments that are definitely not transparent regurgitation of Russian propaganda points have me shook. 

Again, explain for the audience how the US negotiating to give up Ukrainian land is good for Ukraine, the US, justice, the world, or really anyone but Russia. Bonus points if you dance around the topic by mentioning history and context all while really not denying your blatantly Russia favorable position and while saying very little of substance. 

 

29 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

See, @Anastasis became deeply suspicious of the US military industrial complex during his political formative years. He became convinced that weakening it was the most important thing to improve the world. To that end, he aligns himself with murders, rapists, and war mongers. He will gladly sacrifice every man, woman, and child in Ukraine. Anything is worth the cost if it gives the old US of A a black eye. He ignores his blatant hypocrisy because he believes the US is responsible for all the world's ills. He is blithely unaware that he displays all the moral backbone and intellectual rigor of an earthworm. A comparatively intelligent earthworm to be sure. But ultimately he is still just pink, wiggly flesh covered in shit. 

I love when you guys use the opportunity to state my arguments for me with your own massaging. Is that kind of rhetorical misrepresentation something they teach you guys in law school or were you just born intrinsically dishonest by nature? If you want to engage honestly, you can quote me and I will respond. I am not going to continually correct your misrepresentations when you are perfectly capable of using the quote function. 
 

You said I never give you answers or take a position. You asked me some questions. I very succinctly answered them. Then I asked you some question to which you responded and I responded in turn by quoting and direct response. Then you started babbling about Russian tools and disingenuousness. lol. I understand you won’t get pressed on it by anyone else here, but you are clowning yourself. 
 

 

Edited February 10 by Anastasis

[safe sex 11696]

Then state your arguments again for us all, clearly. Or copy paste them from an old post. Just say something

[Anastasis 23447]

2 minutes ago, safe sex said:

Then state your arguments again for us all, clearly. Or copy paste them from an old post. Just say something

You are free to go one page back and engage the question/answer exchange. Start at the beginning though with DAHobbs post. 

[Fastbreak 3971]

You are free to go one page back and engage the question/answer exchange. Start at the beginning though with DAHobbs post. 

It’s amazing these “patriots” are aligned with Russia, North Korea and Iran. Their minds are so filled with the Russian propaganda that’s been pumped to them since 2016 via chain Emails, Facebook and Twitter that they are mental jello molds.

Fuck all of them. Including you traitor…

[Dahobbs 17515]

38 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

 

I love when you guys use the opportunity to state my arguments for me with your own massaging. Is that kind of rhetorical misrepresentation something they teach you guys in law school or were you just born intrinsically dishonest by nature? If you want to engage honestly, you can quote me and I will respond. I am not going to continually correct your misrepresentations when you are perfectly capable of using the quote function. 
 

You said I never give you answers or take a position. You asked me some questions. I very succinctly answered them. Then I asked you some question to which you responded and I responded in turn by quoting and direct response. Then you started babbling about Russian tools and disingenuousness. lol. I understand you won’t get pressed on it by anyone else here, but you are clowning yourself. 
 

 

You did answer some questions, I'll give you that. Your questions were disingenuous and you know it. It is just like asking "when did you stop beating your wife." You pretend it is just a question, ignoring the assumptions and implications pregnant within it, and then wonder why no one engages with you.

At any rate, am I incorrect? Do you not want the US to "negotiate" on behalf of Ukraine and end the war by having Ukraine give up its territory? Is not the end result of your desire that Russia will be rewarded for invasion and killing of its neighbor? Do you not believe that the US military/surveillance apparatus is to blame for many, if not all, the bad things happening in the world? You blame the US for Russia invading Ukraine, right? You blame the US for killing in Israel and Palestine, right? You believe that other actors lack any independent agency or responsibility other than as mere predictable reactionary forces to conniving american policy, right? 

 

[troph 24772]

I’m deeply suspicious of the global industrial military industry myself. But one thing is more true than their desire to sell bombs which require the use of bombs - humans fight each other. 
 

when you recognize the fight will not stop, then it’s inevitable that you must have a winner and a loser. And if there is a winner and a loser then the only question becomes which side do you want to be on and what can you do to get there? 
 

I would much rather have the United States the victor. All enemies should be defeated or at least held in check. 
 

We can argue the merits this or that conflict or skirmish in far reaches of the globe. It is not arguable and it is clear and unequivocal that Russia is a pariah state in our eyes and should be soundly defeated. 
 

the fact that we have a willing ally to conduct a proxy war - because of the consequences to them if they choose not to - is a god send.

light ‘em up. Fuck Putin and fuck Russia. 
 

Edited February 10 by troph

[Willfully Horn 7985]

11 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Good talk, you mush brained bot. 

Your narcissism is showing, wormtongue.

[Anastasis 23447]

6 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

You did answer some questions, I'll give you that. Your questions were disingenuous and you know it. It is just like asking "when did you stop beating your wife." You pretend it is just a question, ignoring the assumptions and implications pregnant within it, and then wonder why no one engages with you.

Funny for all the rhetoric earlier, it is you and not me that seems to have a hard time answering questions and engaging in back and forth to clarify, refine, and arrive at a conclusion.

8 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

At any rate, am I incorrect? Do you not want the US to "negotiate" on behalf of Ukraine and end the war by having Ukraine give up its territory?

I think that my previous statements are quite clear, but you are in constant struggle mode, so I guess I have to restate again my view. Negotiations should be conducted between Ukraine and Russia, as was done at Istanbul. I don't think that the US should be a party directly at the table. I am not sure why you are going off on this particular tangent, but I am sure that it is well thought through. Of course the US and our western allies have substantial influence on how the negotiations shakes out, as we saw from the result at Istanbul. 

I think that this should be clear to you based on the prior exchange, but you are not really interesting in an honest exchange. 

  

19 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Do you think that America should be exerting their influence to bring the hostilities in Ukraine to an end by engaging negotiations as soon as possible?

My answer [is] yes

12 hours ago, Anastasis said:

3) Do you think that America should be exerting their influence to bring the hostilities in Ukraine to an end by engaging negotiations as soon as possible?

No, I don't think it is for the United States to negotiate on behalf of Ukraine. Unless Ukraine wants to cede territory, the only negotiation should be Russia leaving and paying for the damage it has done. Stop doing Russia's work for it.

You don't think that America should exert influence in working towards negotiation between Russia and Ukraine, but have no problem with America and other western allies exerting influence to stop negotiations between the parties. That checks out. 

 

12 hours ago, Anastasis said:

3. Maybe.  "Bringing hostilities to an end" is not fucking "peace."  The absence of war is not peace.  The purpose of negotiations should be towards an actual peace.  "Peace" means Ukraine remains Ukraine.  It means an end to Russian aggression in the region.  Sometimes, and this really really sucks, the way to finish a fight is to fucking finish it.

was just told by DAHobbs that we should let Ukraine negotiate on behalf of Ukraine without US influence. I am ok with that. I know that it might hurt the inner jingos of the brave proxy warmongers, but you will get over it. 

 

[956 Worldwide 34677]

23 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

You did answer some questions, I'll give you that. Your questions were disingenuous and you know it. It is just like asking "when did you stop beating your wife." You pretend it is just a question, ignoring the assumptions and implications pregnant within it, and then wonder why no one engages with you.

At any rate, am I incorrect? Do you not want the US to "negotiate" on behalf of Ukraine and end the war by having Ukraine give up its territory? Is not the end result of your desire that Russia will be rewarded for invasion and killing of its neighbor? Do you not believe that the US military/surveillance apparatus is to blame for many, if not all, the bad things happening in the world? You blame the US for Russia invading Ukraine, right? You blame the US for killing in Israel and Palestine, right? You believe that other actors lack any independent agency or responsibility other than as mere predictable reactionary forces to conniving american policy, right? 

 

One of the key commonalities in all this (shared by Tommy Tuberville as well) is the complete unwillingness to extend consideration of context beyond either Russia or how Russia feels about the United States.  The people getting killed and their country simply don’t have a voice in any of it.  The question of “what is the context for why Eastern Europeans might want to join NATO or the EU” isn’t even asked, let alone given serious thought. If they matter or exist at all they are just empty vessels to be manipulated by the “warmongers in DC.” It is very much a Putin-esque view of the world. 
 

[Dahobbs 17515]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Funny for all the rhetoric earlier, it is you and not me that seems to have a hard time answering questions and engaging in back and forth to clarify, refine, and arrive at a conclusion.

I think that my previous statements are quite clear, but you are in constant struggle mode, so I guess I have to restate again my view. Negotiations should be conducted between Ukraine and Russia, as was done at Istanbul. I don't think that the US should be a party directly at the table. I am not sure why you are going off on this particular tangent, but I am sure that it is well thought through. Of course the US and our western allies have substantial influence on how the negotiations shakes out, as we saw from the result at Istanbul. 

I think that this should be clear to you based on the prior exchange, but you are not really interesting in an honest exchange. 

 

See, you answered the question without answering the question. Do you want Ukraine to give up territory and Russia to be awarded for its aggression? Saying you want the US to use its influence to "negotiate" doesn't mean anything unless you identify what you want those negotiations to accomplish. 

Here, let me help you. I want the US to use its influence and power to push Russia to drop it's claim to Ukrainian territory and to leave the country. In that sense, sure, I want the US to negotiate. I don't want the US to use its influence to try and force Ukraine to give up its territory if it doesn't want to. That's what you want because you know it'll hurt the US and help Russia. You'll never say that of course. You'll keep with mush mouth non positions that simply imply it without ever clearly stating your desired outcome. 

[Brisketexan 104953]

See, you answered the question without answering the question. Do you want Ukraine to give up territory and Russia to be awarded for its aggression? Saying you want the US to use its influence to "negotiate" doesn't mean anything unless you identify what you want those negotiations to accomplish. 
Here, let me help you. I want the US to use its influence and power to push Russia to drop it's claim to Ukrainian territory and to leave the country. In that sense, sure, I want the US to negotiate. I don't want the US to use its influence to try and force Ukraine to give up its territory if it doesn't want to. That's what you want because you know it'll hurt the US and help Russia. You'll never say that of course. You'll keep with mush mouth non positions that simply imply it without ever clearly stating your desired outcome. 

He wants the US to use its power and influence by…not using it. Back off. Starve Ukraine for weapons, we need to stay out of it, right? I mean…the fact that the inevitable result of that approach is the complete and total conquest of Ukraine, which would be “negotiated” by an unconditional surrender of Ukraine to Russia as Kyiv falls…well, that’s just a happy accident, and not what Anastasis wants at all. Nosiree.

Ana, how about you answer this question: when this is over, what do you think a just outcome map of Ukraine, according to the Ukrainians, should look like? Ukraine is Russia? Russia completely out of Ukraine? Russia continues to hold only eastern Ukraine and Crimea? Something different?

Don’t tell us what you think people should do or not do…tell us what should “be.” Because the goal defines the actions to get there. And if you define the goal as X, then your argument in support of actions that will only lead to result Y turns to shit. So…tell us what the goal is.

[956 Worldwide 34677]

15 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Funny for all the rhetoric earlier, it is you and not me that seems to have a hard time answering questions and engaging in back and forth to clarify, refine, and arrive at a conclusion.

I think that my previous statements are quite clear, but you are in constant struggle mode, so I guess I have to restate again my view. Negotiations should be conducted between Ukraine and Russia, as was done at Istanbul. I don't think that the US should be a party directly at the table. I am not sure why you are going off on this particular tangent, but I am sure that it is well thought through. Of course the US and our western allies have substantial influence on how the negotiations shakes out, as we saw from the result at Istanbul. 

I think that this should be clear to you based on the prior exchange, but you are not really interesting in an honest exchange. 

  

 

 

This is all such garbage and evidence of why it’s useless to talk to you. “First accept Putin’s version of what happened at Istanbul……” 

[Anastasis 23447]

And as to the others questions, which are far broader in terms of subject matter, responses below. 

24 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Is not the end result of your desire that Russia will be rewarded for invasion and killing of its neighbor?

Of course not, my desire is that the parties can find a way to bring the hostilities to conclusion.

24 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Do you not believe that the US military/surveillance apparatus is to blame for many, if not all, the bad things happening in the world?

I think that American foreign policy and the related system components operate in a way that is generally extremely short-sighted, inconsistent, and results in bad outcomes, some of which should have been easy to anticipate, others less so, but a good number of them fundamentally in opposition to American values. There are lots of bad things that happen in the world though and I wouldn't blame all of them on US foreign policy. I mean it is windy and raining pretty hard to today and one of my pots got knocked over on my patio.

24 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

You blame the US for Russia invading Ukraine, right?

I think that US has played a significant role in how the board was set, and that what we are seeing today was predictable.There were exchanges on this board earlier in the conflict where those predictions and the people that made them were discussed. The US is not responsible for the invasion though, that is a strawman that you guys created to deflect from the fact that we don't pay attention and never fucking learn. And some of you count on it.

 

24 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

You blame the US for killing in Israel and Palestine, right?

I do not think that we should be funding the collective punishment/ethnic cleansing operations that Israel is carrying out. I do not think that we should be flying them c130s full of bombs to drop on Gaza. I think that given the very close political, financial, and military relatinoship between the US and Israel, what is happening in Gaza while we run cover and defect and ship money and weapons over is a dark stain on our country. 

24 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

You believe that other actors lack any independent agency or responsibility other than as mere predictable reactionary forces to conniving american policy, right? 

You are not acting like a serious person DA. You are arguing against an imaginary strawman that seems to occupy quite a bit of real estate in your dome. 

[RomaVicta 29884]

I've got to say that the volume of ad hominem attachments to discussion is disappointing. I understand the irritation with bomb throwers who come here to state their idiotic versions of the truth or just to stir shit up. Sometimes crowd sourcing is the way to go. 

If you're first reaction to seeing someone's handle is to dismiss his/her post out of hand and insult them, maybe put them on ignore.  

[RomaVicta 29884]

18 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

One of the key commonalities in all this (shared by Tommy Tuberville as well) is the complete unwillingness to extend consideration of context beyond either Russia or how Russia feels about the United States.  The people getting killed and their country simply don’t have a voice in any of it.  The question of “what is the context for why Eastern Europeans might want to join NATO or the EU” isn’t even asked, let alone given serious thought. If they matter or exist at all they are just empty vessels to be manipulated by the “warmongers in DC.” It is very much a Putin-esque view of the world. 
 

Putin says he's open to peace talks. So let's change the status quo that brought him to this point. In fact, had we not supported Ukraine at all, I'm sure Putin would have asked for peace even before his dying army confronted such furiuos opposition.

The time to turn down the pressure is just before you will get what you want.

When you're going in for the winning touchdown, punt! The other team will concede after you do so.

Fucking bent idiot.

[Anastasis 23447]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Ana, how about you answer this question: when this is over, what do you think a just outcome map of Ukraine, according to the Ukrainians, should look like? Ukraine is Russia? Russia completely out of Ukraine? Russia continues to hold only eastern Ukraine and Crimea? Something different?

You are asking me what a just outcome map of Ukraine, according to the Ukrainians, should look like? I think that maybe you should ask the Ukrainians that question.

[cactusflinthead 27597]

8 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

put them on ignore

You've chosen to ignore content by Anastasis.

The first one I have. 

[Dahobbs 17515]

7 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

I've got to say that the volume of ad hominem attachments to discussion is disappointing. I understand the irritation with bomb throwers who come here to state their idiotic versions of the truth or just to stir shit up. Sometimes crowd sourcing is the way to go. 

If you're first reaction to seeing someone's handle is to dismiss his/her post out of hand and insult them, maybe put them on ignore.  

It isn't the first reaction. I think his posts deserve a response rather than let the propaganda stand on its own. I also hold out some hope that he will one day change. But, until then, I don't mind calling a spade a spade. 

[Dahobbs 17515]

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

You are asking me what a just outcome map of Ukraine, according to the Ukrainians, should look like? I think that maybe you should ask the Ukrainians that question.

Weird. That was my point. You're the one that wants the US to negotiate a peace, but you refuse to take a position on what that peace should look like. How strange. 

[Dahobbs 17515]

16 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Of course not, my desire is that the parties can find a way to bring the hostilities to conclusion.

See, another non answer. What should Ukraine look like after this according to you? Say what you mean for once in your life. 

[Anastasis 23447]

1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

Weird. That was my point. You're the one that wants the US to negotiate a peace, but you refuse to take a position on what that peace should look like. How strange. 

I quoted my posts above. Trying reading them. Maybe slowly. 

[YGIFS 19449]

Man, we're all mostly full of shit on here.  But I think, at least based on reading your posts which may or may be indicative of future performance, you come across as well educated and thoughtful.  

But I cannot for the life of me,   figure out if you're going through an absolutely brilliant floor routine of mental gymnastics to stick the landing for a clever way to side with your team on the Ukraine issue.  Or if you're just a fancied version of the moronic MAGA culture that would suck on Putin's taint if Trump asked them to.  But I guess I see it on a lot of issues and the justification for strange positions.  You are honest and engaging, so bonus points for that.

[Dahobbs 17515]

14 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I quoted my posts above. Trying reading them. Maybe slowly. 

Should Ukraine be in Russian or Ukrainian hands? Pick one. 

[Brisketexan 104953]

You are asking me what a just outcome map of Ukraine, according to the Ukrainians, should look like? I think that maybe you should ask the Ukrainians that question.

Then let me ask the questions that follow that:
Do you think the Ukrainians would choose some version of the map has Russia excluded from Ukraine either in whole or in large part (i.e., no more territory than it already holds)?
And, do you think the Ukrainians should receive western support, including weapons, to help them achieve/get closer to that goal?

I’ll even give you my answers first: they want Russia gone completely. But they will likely settle for something less, eventually. And we should continue to supply them the ammo and weapons they request, at similar levels to what we’ve done the past two years (it has varied, I’d prefer towards the higher end).

Because your answer of “I just want hostilities to end” is hot garbage, and you know it. Hostilities would end tomorrow if Ukraine surrendered unconditionally (although in truth, they wouldn’t…the parade of horrors and reprisals a Russian occupation force would inflict on Ukrainians would make anyone do any conscience puke). “The absence of war” is not peace, yet you seem to miss that point. Purposefully. That the audience reaches that conclusion about your position is not their fault - it’s yours.

I just stated my answers and goals, as plain as day above. Why don’t you do the same?

[956 Worldwide 34677]

 

30 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

You are asking me what a just outcome map of Ukraine, according to the Ukrainians, should look like? I think that maybe you should ask the Ukrainians that question.

They’ve been asked that and answered multiple times and only deep-fried Kremlobots think there’s an alternative:

 

[Anastasis 23447]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I’ll even give you my answers first: they want Russia gone completely. But they will likely settle for something less, eventually. And we should continue to supply them the ammo and weapons they request, at similar levels to what we’ve done the past two years (it has varied, I’d prefer towards the higher end).

We are not too far apart. I agree that the bolded probably reflects reality.

I don't think that the US taxpayer should be on the hook for a blank check. To the extent that our solution to the issue is to dump more arms and weapons into the region, I think that we need to have robust controls on arms and money from US taxpayers. I know that unintended consequences are not real though, and we shouldn't spend any time thinking about them with a longer run time horizon.   

[956 Worldwide 34677]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

We are not too far apart. I agree that the bolded probably reflects reality.

I don't think that the US taxpayer should be on the hook for a blank check. To the extent that our solution to the issue is to dump more arms and weapons into the region, I think that we need to have robust controls on arms and money from US taxpayers. I know that unintended consequences are not real though, and we shouldn't spend any time thinking about them with a longer run time horizon.   

You and @Brisketexan are extremely far apart; you are concern trolling about imaginary future consequences.  Brisket is legitimately concerned about preventing more of these extremely real consequences: 

 

 

That is what cessation of hostilities means for Ukrainians. You don’t give a shit about anything but hopefully being proven right about how bad America is. Which is exactly what @Dahobbs has explained.

 

[Anastasis 23447]

7 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

you are concern trolling about imaginary future consequences.

Someone could have pulled the string in your back in the 90s and you would have spit out the same exact shit about the warnings from Kennan and others. And yet here we are. 

[Anastasis 23447]

8 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Ukrainians. You don’t give a shit about anything but hopefully being proven right about how bad America is.

I am able to draw a distinction between my country and the ideals it claims to stand for, and the dysfunction, incoherence, and impacts of American foreign policy that run contrary. I love my country. I am not a traitor as has been charged here. I understand that that shit is a common tactic to suppress dissent. Most of the posters here should remember how people like David Frum and many others deployed the tactic in the early 2000s. But maybe not. 

[956 Worldwide 34677]

7 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Someone could have pulled the string in your back in the 90s and you would have spit out the same exact shit about the warnings from Kennan and others. And yet here we are. 

Vladimir Putin just gave a two hour long interview about how he was always going to invade Ukraine because of 1654 and you’re still here shitting out this tired bullshit. You won’t even let him tell you that you’re wrong. 
 

Because your brain is broken. 

[YGIFS 19449]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I am able to draw a distinction between my country and the ideals it claims to stand for, and the dysfunction, incoherence, and impacts of American foreign policy that run contrary. I love my country. I am not a traitor as has been charged here. I understand that that shit is a common tactic to suppress dissent. Most of the posters here should remember how people like David Frum and many others deployed the tactic in the early 2000s. But maybe not. 

Fair point.  But also understand that the mobilization and armament buildup by Russia to launch its ground/air/naval campaign on Ukraine began in 2020.  And we knew about it between SIGINT, HUMINT, and satellite imagery.  Where were your foreign policy American heroes then?  If many fantastic people are yugely claiming that you/we/they could have prevented this war...why not end it before it begins? 

[Anastasis 23447]

2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Vladimir Putin just gave a two hour long interview about how he was always going to invade Ukraine because of 1654 and you’re still here shitting out this tired bullshit. You won’t even let him tell you that you’re wrong. 

This is all such garbage and evidence of why it’s useless to talk to you. “First accept Putin’s version…”

[956 Worldwide 34677]

4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I am able to draw a distinction between my country and the ideals it claims to stand for, and the dysfunction, incoherence, and impacts of American foreign policy that run contrary. I love my country. I am not a traitor as has been charged here. I understand that that shit is a common tactic to suppress dissent. Most of the posters here should remember how people like David Frum and many others deployed the tactic in the early 2000s. But maybe not. 

We get it, you love America so much you want Putin to get everything he wants so that David Frum and Toria Nuland are proven wrong and we can finally make America be what you want it to be. 
 

Very sophisticated and just so happens to align perfectly with Marjorie Taylor Greene, who is also Very Concerned about what may happen with the IFVs and Javelins we send to Ukraine. 

[Anastasis 23447]

Just now, 956 Worldwide said:

We get it, you love America so much you want Putin to get everything he wants so that David Frum and Toria Nuland are proven wrong and we can finally make America be what you want it to be. 

It’s been a real blast letting you guys run wild with your imagination and the strawmen and rhetorical fallacies. I do think that the rehabilitation of the neocons here is pretty hilarious though in light of past discussions over the last 20+ years in the various political forums. 

[atomheartbevo 89610]

46 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Vladimir Putin just gave a two hour long interview about how he was always going to invade Ukraine because of 1654 and you’re still here shitting out this tired bullshit. You won’t even let him tell you that you’re wrong. 

This is the most frustrating thing with a lot of these people - Putin and his talking heads on Russian state TV are telling us what they intend to do, but these people would rather put words in Putin’s mouth.

Putin could announce the sky is blue and give an 30-minute speech about why it’s blue, and these people would try and tell us that what he really means is that it’s red.

And none of these people are willing to consider what will happen if we stop supporting Ukraine.  The motherfucker told everybody in writing he was going to take the rest of Ukraine back in 2021, then tried it in 2022.  When he and his talking heads discuss bring the Baltics back into Russian control, he means it.

[Dahobbs 17515]

57 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

This is all such garbage and evidence of why it’s useless to talk to you. “First accept Putin’s version…”

We have the interview. What is garbage about his statement? It is literally what Putin has said many times. 

[Dahobbs 17515]

 

56 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

It’s been a real blast letting you guys run wild with your imagination and the strawmen and rhetorical fallacies. I do think that the rehabilitation of the neocons here is pretty hilarious though in light of past discussions over the last 20+ years in the various political forums. 

Lol, there it is again. You cant help but reveal your true motive. You don't care about anything but proving neocons/the US are bad. Everything else is just a means to do so, reality be damned. 

Edited February 10 by Dahobbs

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5 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

We have the interview. What is garbage about his statement? It is literally what Putin has said many times. 

It’s some of the same shit he put in writing in the summer of 2021.  He’s been very consistent on using his version of history for stating that Ukraine is a made-up nation and is really a part of Russia.  

[Anastasis 23447]

5 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

We have the interview. What is garbage about his statement? It is literally what Putin has said many times. 

I am starting to understand why you struggle so much in this exchange. 

[Dahobbs 17515]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

I am starting to understand why you struggle so much in this exchange. 

Any time now, what was incorrect about his statement? Do you believe Putin hasn't said those things? 

[Anastasis 23447]

5 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

 

Lol, there it is again. You cant help but reveal your true motive. You don't care about anything but proving neocons/the US are bad. Everything else is just a means to do so, reality be damned. 

More baseless and dishonest rhetoric. But you are right about one thing, the neocon foreign policy strategy is bad. This use to not be a very hard thing for most posters here to acknowledge, given the objective evidence and outcomes. I guess some of you will have to learn the lesson again. 

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1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

It’s been a real blast letting you guys run wild with your imagination and the strawmen and rhetorical fallacies. I do think that the rehabilitation of the neocons here is pretty hilarious though in light of past discussions over the last 20+ years in the various political forums. 

This is exactly why people accurately point out that you’re disingenuous and trolling (trolling with a purpose, though). 
 

Everyone here is intelligent enough to know what the very real consequences of your preferences are. You finally got pinned down and admitted them: Ukraine and Russia “negotiate” without any other involvement.  The U.S. and Allies stop arming Ukraine.  Failing that, we put in a baroque system where preventing imagined future misuse is more important than proper use on the battlefield. You have fucking said that today. 
 

And you know— you fucking know— that this means Putin gets all he wants and murders lots of Ukrainians.  He’s said so and he has already done it. That’s not a straw man, that’s the very real consequence of what you support. 
 

So just fucking own it.  The very stupidest Kremlotrolls can’t help saying the quiet part out loud. You’re not stupid and so you feign offense and ignorance whenever the quiet part gets said. 

[Anastasis 23447]

23 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Ukraine and Russia “negotiate” without any other involvement.  The U.S. and Allies stop arming Ukraine.  Failing that, we put in a baroque system where preventing imagined future misuse is more important than proper use on the battlefield. You have fucking said that today. 

None of that is an accurate representation of what I have said and expressed. That is your propaganda artistry at work, trying to spin any level of dissent or alternative path into other terms you find easier to knock down. We’ve seen this shit over and over again through recent and more distant history. The sound track that plays when someone pulls your string is not a new one.

Edited February 10 by Anastasis

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24 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Any time now, what was incorrect about his statement? Do you believe Putin hasn't said those things? 

He thinks he has caught me in a logical trap because I believe it when Putin says over and over that Ukraine isn’t a real country and he has a right to it and he’s going to take— and then does that.  However, I don’t believe it when Putin says that at Istanbul everything was going to be peaceful agreed on except perfidious Albion in the person of Boris Johnson showed up and manipulated the Ukrainians into throwing away a perfect deal. 
 

It’s a very stupid trap. 
 

I could be wrong, maybe Anastasia does believe that VVP is not a cynical and skilled manipulator who sometimes lies to get what he wants and sometimes tells you exactly what he plans to do.  Maybe he believes that  VVP is one of two goblins sitting at a crossroads.  One road leads to paradise, the other to hell. One goblin may only lie and the other may only tell the truth, so what question must we ask? 

[Dahobbs 17515]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

None of that is an accurate representation of what I have said and expressed. That is your propaganda artistry at work, trying to spin any level of dissent into other terms you find easier to knock down. We’ve seen this shit over and over again through recent and more distant history. The sound track that plays when someone pulls your string is not a new one.

It is what youve implied. And you know it. But, if you didn't intend to, maybe you just suck at expressing yourself. 

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7 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

None of that is an accurate representation of what I have said and expressed. That is your propaganda artistry at work, trying to spin any level of dissent or alternative path into other terms you find easier to knock down. We’ve seen this shit over and over again through recent and more distant history. The sound track that plays when someone pulls your string is not a new one.

How, precisely, did I misrepresent what you have said?  You said that we are close or past the point where the “taxpayer spigot should be turned off. “ You’ve whiner a lot about not tracking weapons we give Ukraine enough. And you’ve said you want negotiations “like at Istanbul” to end hostilities along with those things, and you’ve said that the US/partners sabotaged  those talks and shouldn’t do it again. 

What, EXACTLY, am I missing.