Ukraine War

[DigglerontheHoof 21,186]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Well......maybe not the LAMEST political rally you've ever seen......

 

Touche.  How about lamest political rally for a dictator who has complete control of the country. 

[RomaVicta 29,905]

33 minutes ago, Bravo said:

 

I know! I know! The one at the top is the one that's different! 

What do I win?

[WhatTheBuck 28,776]

40 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Jesus fucking Christ, are you insane?  Each Russian missile sub can put something like 70 MIRVs on target.  Russia has 11 missile subs.  Even if only half are operational, and even if their missiles are HORRIBLE, and only 20% work.....that's 70 functioning nukes (14 per boat, X 5 subs).  You're willing to let SEVENTY fucking targets get nuked?  And we're not even counting ICBMs, at least SOME of which would work.  For fuck's sake, that's total global thermonuclear war.  Pretty goddamned cavalier when you're talking about a scale of destruction that will kill literally hundreds of millions of people when all strikes are said and done.

Nukes work as a deterrent because they're fucking nukes, man.  When your opponent has that option, it HAS to be considered in gaming any scenarios.  I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to lose 20 American cities over this.  And anyone who is willing to place that bet is fucking insane.

Putin isn’t going to nuke NYC over a battle for Ukraine because it would mean he would die and we’d lay his motherland to waste.

That’s a lovely building you have there, Vlad. It would be a shame if anything happened to it.

[Caponata 151]

7 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

So maybe 6 bodies per day?  (2100 per year)  They've lost that many soldiers in less than two weeks, and perhaps as much as 6X that amount.  Like I said, inefficient. 

Ukraine said Russia has lost 12k soldiers. Do you not believe their numbers?

[WhatTheBuck 28,776]

7 minutes ago, Caponata said:

Ukraine said Russia has lost 12k soldiers. Do you not believe their numbers?

What possible reason could they have to exaggerate those numbers?

Oh, right. 

[Huckleberry 32,851]

6 minutes ago, Caponata said:

Ukraine said Russia has lost 12k soldiers. Do you not believe their numbers?

You seem really preoccupied with the fact that a country currently fighting off an invasion is engaging in propaganda to help fight it off. Are you going to be okay? 

[RomaVicta 29,905]

24 minutes ago, Bravo said:

wrong! theyre the same.

No. The one on the top was the only one that contained an ounce of wit.

[brakeman 28,359]

7 hours ago, Grade of D as in David said:

What if they sprinkled on some liquid smoke?

fresh pico de gallo?

[jimmyjazz 45,898]

35 minutes ago, Caponata said:

Ukraine said Russia has lost 12k soldiers. Do you not believe their numbers?

2,100 x 6 = 12,600

Do you have a fucking point?

[Tuco 5,076]

divide all Ukraine numbers like that by 2. multiply all russian reported losses by 5.

Ok. So what?
Does that really change the point about the cremation trucks?

[cactusflinthead 27,598]

Bolton interviewed by Mother Jones' David Corn. I did not have that on the bingo card.

Bolton noted that when he served in the White House, Trump paid “very little attention” to Ukraine “until the summer of 2019 when [Trump] realized that he could have the possibility of holding up the obligation and delivery of substantial security assistance [to Ukraine] in an effort to get access to the Hillary Clinton computer server that he felt was in Ukraine, finding out about Hunter Biden’s income in Ukraine, and all of these things in this spaghetti bowl of conspiracy theories.

 

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20,395]

All of these "Putin won't deploy nukes because he knows Moscow would be incinerated"  presume that he's a rational actor making rational decisions based on objective data and normal human morality.  What if those things aren't true?

[AnTiM 1,666]

4 minutes ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

All of these "Putin won't deploy nukes because he knows Moscow would be incinerated"  presume that he's a rational actor making rational decisions based on objective data and normal human morality.  What if those things aren't true?

Then it's "Hot damn, we're all gonna die".  What is your point?

Edited March 10, 2022 by AnTiM

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

From Molly McKew:

[pyrohornIII 4,814]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Jesus fucking Christ, are you insane?  Each Russian missile sub can put something like 70 MIRVs on target.  Russia has 11 missile subs.  Even if only half are operational, and even if their missiles are HORRIBLE, and only 20% work.....that's 70 functioning nukes (14 per boat, X 5 subs).  You're willing to let SEVENTY fucking targets get nuked?  And we're not even counting ICBMs, at least SOME of which would work.  For fuck's sake, that's total global thermonuclear war.  Pretty goddamned cavalier when you're talking about a scale of destruction that will kill literally hundreds of millions of people when all strikes are said and done.

Nukes work as a deterrent because they're fucking nukes, man.  When your opponent has that option, it HAS to be considered in gaming any scenarios.  I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to lose 20 American cities over this.  And anyone who is willing to place that bet is fucking insane.

No.  Not insane. But tired of Putin bullying the world while he hold the nuclear grenade.  I don't know what the answer is, but to live like this is insane.  And we've been doing it in this country for nearly 70 years.  I'd rather my grandkids not have to live under that same cloud.   I'm just tired of it.  We spend more than the next 10 nations on defense, but here we are, sitting with our hands tied because of that grenade while  Putin invades, rapes, murders and terrorizes innocent citizens.   Because he is crazy and might kill us if he doesn't get what he wants.   

No I am not pushing for Armageddon.  I said that stupidly.    I apologize.  

[pyrohornIII 4,814]

1 minute ago, Bravo said:

he isn't going to launch any nukes because the entire world dies.

You cannot say that with any certainty.  The man possesses more material wealth than supposedly anyone else, but that doesn't seem to be enough to satiate his appetites.  His mind and ego are different than most folks.  There is no way you can positively state he wouldn't call for a nuke strike, most likely a localized one.    I think he'd do it, but also tend to hope someone would step in and kill the order.  Much like Trump's people supposedly giving him false  codes.   Even so, it's not worth the risk.  

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

First bolded text: without actually using NATO forces in direct combat with Russia, what else would you have us do? 

I would have us cheat. Cheat like hell. Give the Ukrainians the best real time intel. Sneak in the jets or have them mysteriously “stolen.” Convince some of our billionaires to “hire” mercenaries.  Anything we can do with the thinnest veil of plausible deniability.  Assuming Ukraine would approve, which of course they would. 

[F250 28,767]

39 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

From Molly McKew:

It sounds like she is either implying that the U.S. and the West isn't helping Ukraine or dancing around a call for direct confrontation with Russia. I'm not really sure what she is trying to say but I recall her being part of the "resistance" and I've noticed those folks are pretty hawkish on this war.

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by F250

[staboner 4,969]

18 minutes ago, pyrohornIII said:

You cannot say that with any certainty.  The man possesses more material wealth than supposedly anyone else, but that doesn't seem to be enough to satiate his appetites.  His mind and ego are different than most folks.  There is no way you can positively state he wouldn't call for a nuke strike, most likely a localized one.    I think he'd do it, but also tend to hope someone would step in and kill the order.  Much like Trump's people supposedly giving him false  codes.   Even so, it's not worth the risk.  

 

putin would use a nuke IMO. if he gets trapped enough and says F it I got no way out. at least thats my guess in this mess. and the guess of many others

we made the worst fucking weapon and now have thousands pointed at each other. the fact that we have avoided this disaster this long is remarkable, either via fuckup, confusion or war. it will happen. man will use the best weapon they have. its just in our fucking regarded nature

the fools. the mad fools.

 

[staboner 4,969]

until it ain't

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

3 minutes ago, F250 said:

It sounds like she is either implying that the U.S. and the West isn't helping Ukraine or dancing around a call for direct confrontation with Russia. I'm not really sure what she is trying to say but I recall her being part of the "resistance" and I've noticed those folks are pretty hawkish on this war.

 

She’s more along the John McCain side of the “resistance”. 

[Woodrow Call 494]

3 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I’m only advocating for whatever it takes to humiliate the Russian army out of Ukraine as fast as possible without overt U.S. military intervention.  I hope we’re doing as much as possible behind the scenes to make it happen but I have my doubts based on how previous administration have approached this guy.  Putin isn’t going to nuke us for the same reason North Korea isn’t. MAD actually works.  I don’t believe he’s looking to take on NATO right now, because it would be suicidal with the military he has BUT he will keep pushing the envelope until NATO responds, he’s betting they won’t and so far he’s been right.

Letting Putin hang around in Ukraine to bomb maternity hospitals and nuclear facilities ain’t a good strategy either. 

I don't know. I think he's gone too far. We can't just sit around and let that happen. There are things worse than death. Being a coward and letting a bully kill women and children is one of them. I've had enough of this fucker. 

[Bookman 4,639]

If I die in a nuclear strike, it was nice knowing all you assholes.

[Bullneck 19,078]

1 hour ago, Bravo said:

Good thing Trump approved 2 rounds of lethal aid to Ukraine. Many of those javelins knocking out russian armor are from those shipments. I don't know where they would be without that lethal aid.

Trump approved that?  I recall hearing he tried to hold back Congressionally approved aid.  

Also, wasn't Zelensky in office for two months before the perfect phone call?  Can you tell me anything about his predecessor?  Is he someone Obama would have given aid to?  

I'll hang up and listen.

[Bullneck 19,078]

1 hour ago, Bravo said:

he isn't going to launch any nukes because the entire world dies.

Everything you post is stupid.

[immamac 42,839]

3 minutes ago, Bravo said:

You proved your stupidity by not even knowing how Ukraine got those Javelins originally. 

Go to a different website for fucks sake no one here likes you because you are an antagonizing shithead not because your takes are bad or anything special. 

[Bullneck 19,078]

4 minutes ago, Bravo said:

LOL you're so brainwashed you don't even know or blocked it out. BTW Obama sent blankets after Putin took Crimea. 

The State Department declined to comment on potential arms sales, but it will formally notify Capitol Hill of the sale soon, according to all three sources. The sale is expected to receive approval from Congress, which stipulated that they also receive a briefing on arms sales to Ukraine, according to one official and the source familiar with the plan. That briefing could happen as soon as this week.

(MORE: US announces sale of anti-tank missiles to Ukraine over Russian opposition)

The sale of Javelins is not part of the nearly $400 million of military assistance that the White House had ordered the State Department and Pentagon to withhold a week before Trump's call with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy. That aid, which has since been released, included assistance for maritime security, special operations units, secure communications and light weapons like sniper rifles and rocket-propelled grenade launchers.

But Javelins were discussed on Trump and Zelenskiy's call on July 25, which has prompted an impeachment inquiry.

[Nivek 16,923]

4 hours ago, F250 said:

They still consider themselves Communist but in transition which is what Lenin's NEP policy was predicted on. An interim period of state capitalism until society is prepared for a transition, the Chinese could technically stay in this phase for centuries and still call it a transitional phase.

 

Meh, they are totalitarians that pretend they are going to transition to communism.  That will never ever happen.  Only the rubes believe that they are communist or will ever transition into becoming communists.  

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

See how excited those kids are when their iphones/samsungs start breaking down, they can't access shit on the internet, no more Starbucks of McDonalds, and none of that even matters because their family income just got devalued 90%, so getting a non-moldy head of cabbage will be their new family project.

These are kids of a the prosperous technology age.  Think about how bitchy your kids get when the wifi goes out for an hour.  These kids are going to face a lot fucking worse, with no benefit or upside.

seems a bit old manish "back in my day we didn't have iPhones and we had to walk to the arcade to play games.  

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

If you think that supporting a bona fide military response and resistance that's destroying materiel and Russian troops left and right, and sanctioning Russia to the point where Ruble notes are toilet paper, isn't "hammering his flank," you ain't paying attention.

And, yes, an off ramp is smart, and important.  Because there's only two positive outcomes here: 1) Putin dies (killed from within....which is the best outcome, of course), or 2) Putin remains alive, and finds a way to de-escalate that saves some face.  That's it.  Those are your choices.  Unless you want the third one: 3) Putin alive, total World War.  I think that one is very, very, very bad, 

 

Counterpoint: 

[The Original Greaser Bob 2,830]

Anyone with any suggested charities?  I just finished reading Doing Good Better so now I am all getting tied in knots on GiveWell and Charity Watch trying to find the best charities  (Give Well always tends to argue you should just give your money for mosquito netting.)

Anyway, seems like Docs Without Borders and Direct Relief might be good choices.

[Bullneck 19,078]

Quote

Petro Poroshenko

Corruption[edit]

Corruption in Ukraine is a widespread problem; although there are signs that during Poroshenko presidency it decreased (thanks to the Prozorro digital system).^[142] Poroshenko signed a decree to create the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine to comply with the requirements of the International Monetary Fund. Since 2015, the Bureau has sent 189 cases to court, but no one significant was convicted. The head of the Special Anti-Corruption Prosecutor's Office reportedly coached suspects on how to avoid corruption charges.^[143]

A November 2018 EU Commission report praised some of Ukraine's reforms during Poroshenko's presidency, such as in healthcare, pensions and public administration.^[144] But judicial reforms were too slow, the report said, and "there have been only few convictions in high-level corruption cases so far".^[144] It also stated that too often attacks on civil society activists went unpunished.^[144]

During Poroshenko's 2019 campaign for reelection, a major scandal arose in which business partners of Poroshenko (but not Poroshenko himself) were accused of smuggling Russian components to Ukrainian defense factories at wildly inflated prices.^[145][144]

Critics of Poroshenko stated he removed the jurisdiction of the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine over records about off-the books payments to Paul J. Manafort, who lobbied on behalf of former Ukraine president Viktor Yanukovych, and served as campaign manager for Donald Trump during his first presidential campaign.^[146] Moreover, Poroshenko stripped of Ukrainian citizenship Mikheil Saakashvili who criticized him for not fighting Ukrainian corruption.^[147]

On 11 April 2019, the High Anti-Corruption Court of Ukraine was established and Poroshenko signed the decree appointing the judges during an official ceremony.^[148]

Zelensky's predecessor.  The guy Obama wouldn't give weapons to?  Tell me, 4Doors.

[Nivek 16,923]

42 minutes ago, Woodrow Call said:

I don't know. I think he's gone too far. We can't just sit around and let that happen. There are things worse than death. Being a coward and letting a bully kill women and children is one of them. I've had enough of this fucker. 

you are free to join the Ukrainian resistance.  

[Biff Tannen 45,673]

1 minute ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

Anyone with any suggested charities?  I just finished reading Doing Good Better so now I am all getting tied in knots on GiveWell and Charity Watch trying to find the best charities  (Give Well always tends to argue you should just give your money for mosquito netting.)

Anyway, seems like Docs Without Borders and Direct Relief might be good choices.

World Central Kitchen

[immamac 42,839]

Just now, Bravo said:

None of your liberal CR buds like me. Plenty of people not in that category do. 

No they don't. They aren't my buds and I'm not a liberal.

[Bullneck 19,078]

1 minute ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

Anyone with any suggested charities?  I just finished reading Doing Good Better so now I am all getting tied in knots on GiveWell and Charity Watch trying to find the best charities  (Give Well always tends to argue you should just give your money for mosquito netting.)

Anyway, seems like Docs Without Borders and Direct Relief might be good choices.

I went to Obama's website and it has recommendations.   I picked the Ukrainian newspaper.  I figure there will be money for people (a Human Fund, if you will) but I think supporting a free press in Ukraine right now is important.  

[The Original Greaser Bob 2,830]

1 hour ago, F250 said:

It sounds like she is either implying that the U.S. and the West isn't helping Ukraine or dancing around a call for direct confrontation with Russia.

I think she's calling for us to get some balls and push on Putin a bit because the situation is not going to get better than it is now and we have lots to gain now, when we have the world (minus  China and North Korea and the GOP) behind us.

[Irwin F Fletcher 3,550]

LOL you're so brainwashed you don't even know or blocked it out. BTW Obama sent blankets after Putin took Crimea. 

Good fucking lord, you are the worst troll on this board.

[Huckleberry 32,851]

7 minutes ago, Bravo said:

None of your liberal CR buds like me. Plenty of people not in that category do. 

No, nobody actually likes you. Johnny Sack, DonkeyCigars, and Zeus pos rep your posts so you will pos rep theirs, which you do. It's the only actual CR rep circle jerk contrary to the crying in DT. But not even they actually like you. To your credit, you're not as stupid as Zeus and DonkeyCigars but that's not saying much. 

[immamac 42,839]

4 minutes ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

I think she's calling for us to get some balls and push on Putin a bit because the situation is not going to get better than it is now and we have lots to gain now, when we have the world (minus  China and North Korea and the GOP) behind us.

How else are we going to push harder? Shooting at them? That gets us into a war. We are putting BILLIONS worth of weapons in their hands fast as hell and we are providing all kinds of intelligence. What else do you want America to do? Invade Russia? 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,100]

1 minute ago, Bravo said:

False. Oddly the Ukraine thread in the DT I am having great discussions and reactions in that thread. 2 threads talking about the same things and completely different reactions. actually if you go through my posts in this thread tonight I was trying to interact with some here. I thought brisket and I were having a good discussion. You just personally don't like me. 

Stop being a whiny cunt.

[Irwin F Fletcher 3,550]

No they don't. They aren't my buds and I'm not a liberal.

Posters like Bravo degrade this site. It's great to have an opposing opinion, it's fine if you can't articulate a coherent argument. What gets old, and anti productive to discussion is flat out trolling. This is Bravo.

[Captainant 27,653]

1 minute ago, Bravo said:

False. Oddly the Ukraine thread in the DT I am having great discussions and reactions in that thread. 2 threads talking about the same things and completely different reactions. actually if you go through my posts in this thread tonight I was trying to interact with some here. I thought brisket and I were having a good discussion. You just personally don't like me. 

No man. You are materially misrepresenting facts and repeating the party lie. That is why people are shitting on you.

The fact that you're disliked has nothing to do with the flak you're taking on this issue.

[immamac 42,839]

1 minute ago, Bravo said:

False. Oddly the Ukraine thread in the DT I am having great discussions and reactions in that thread. 2 threads talking about the same things and completely different reactions. actually if you go through my posts in this thread tonight I was trying to interact with some here. I thought brisket and I were having a good discussion. You just personally don't like me. 

I sift through so many of your stupid shithead inflammatory posts and reported posts it's really fucking stupid for you to say this. I KNOW this to be true because of the amount of complaints I get about you. Stop being such a fuckwad, you can have opinions without being such an unbearable shithead all the damned time. 

[Dahobbs 17,533]

11 minutes ago, immamac said:

No they don't. They aren't my buds and I'm not a liberal.

I know I haven't seen you in awhile, but that's harsh!

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

Just now, immamac said:

How else are we going to push harder? Shooting at them? That gets us into a war. We are putting BILLIONS worth of weapons in their hands fast as hell and we are providing all kinds of intelligence. What else do you want America to do? Invade Russia? 

How about not take shit off the table because “Putin is scary.” The administration looks weak right now. When you publicly say you don’t want to escalate Putin reads that as a green light to keep escalating. 

[Captainant 27,653]

2 minutes ago, Bravo said:

Not true. Many heads blow up here at the mere mention of anything positive Trump may have done. That's what's going on. 

Whatever help you sleep at night, rittenhouse meme man.

[brakeman 28,359]

@bravo go fuck off, nicely.

Edited March 10, 2022 by brakeman

[Nivek 16,923]

4 hours ago, pyrohornIII said:

 

A big part of me wants to call his bluff now.  Especially after seeing the condition of his army and armaments.  I can't help but think how many Russian nukes will detonate in their silos and never get into the skies.   I get that it's a risk, but the longer this goes on and the more losses he takes, the more fragile his ego will be.   No off ramp and he'll just take out the whole world, then no one will be left behind to laugh at him.   So we wait until he kills 25,000 Ukrainians?  Like Brisket said, he knows we are much more capable of ruining him than vice versa.  Give him an out and call his bluff.

 

It seems that the first ones in were the non-professionals.  The worst they had in terms of training, attitude, commitment, and equipment.  The units behind that are the better trained, better supplied, ones that seem to have fewer qualms about shooting unarmed people.  There was a nice video someone posted earlier on this or the DT thread which talked about Soviet tactics and how this kind of follows the script.  Send in the clowns to test the defenses/resolve and then send in the regulars set up a base to operate out of and then start mass bloodshed from 20km away.  

[Anastasis 23,469]

5 minutes ago, immamac said:

I sift through so many of your stupid shithead inflammatory posts and reported posts it's really fucking stupid for you to say this. I KNOW this to be true because of the amount of complaints I get about you. Stop being such a fuckwad, you can have opinions without being such an unbearable shithead all the damned time. 

Just a suggestion, but maybe put a counter on the board discussion forum for posters with most reported posts and posters issuing the most reports.  Would be interesting, esp back during the dark days of the [serious] thread persecutions. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Anastasis

[Dahobbs 17,533]

1 minute ago, Bravo said:

You can't have any opinion in this forum painting Trump in a positive light and you know that. You're being obtuse. I'll stick to the DT thread tonight. More intelligent conversation there anyway. 

Trump appointed a damn good administrator for NASA and stayed out of the way. I appreciated that. Anything else positive is most definitely wishful thinking on your part. Or a very different definition of positive. 

[Bullneck 19,078]

7 minutes ago, Bravo said:

Not true. Many heads blow up here at the mere mention of anything positive Trump may have done. That's what's going on. 

 

Anything positive Trump would have done is what any normal person would have done.  See how low the bar is for you?

But thanks for outing yourself.  Are you Eric or Don, Jr.?