Ukraine War

[SaucyJack 3488]

13 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Are you aware that men under 60 aren’t allowed to leave Ukraine but are forced to stay and fight?

But what if they have bone spurs?

[F250 28766]

29 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Because communism is rooted in a classless society, public ownership of materials, eventually the state would cease to exist as would religion and even family structure and all private property.    In other words, it was more like the society of the bushman lived in "The Gods Must be Crazy" prior to the coke bottle than anything an advanced civilization (post electricity) has ever come to know.    Communism was defined by Engels and Marx, and bastardized by Mao and Lenin (and of course Stalin) to the point that is no longer resembles the Communism defined, but resembles other autocratic regimes (to which totalitarianism is a subcategory).  

In another instance I like it to the modern republican party which talks about America with some reverence, citing our institutions and roots in democracy as the source of our strength as a nation, and then proceeds to gerrymander the shit out of districts and enact very anti-democratic policies to strip the will of the people away (Desantis' choice to ignore Florida voters choice to give voting rights back to felons).  On in another case, they argue they are the party of Lincoln and point to the Democratic Party's ties to overt racist suppressive past but fail to let you know the political parties effectively swapped and in a modern sense, Lincoln is closer to a modern Democratic Party member and the old racist voter suppression tactics employed by the DP have just been rebottled by the RP.   (Not to say that the old Republicans or modern Democratic Party members are pure as the driven snow.)

Well that is just like my opinion though.  I think words matter and definitions matter.  This isn't some slang which has been embraced depending on context or inflection (M. Ali's "I'm a baaaad man" or some other Bostonian 15 years ago saying "wicked" to mean something cool) but yet is still universally recognized to have the original meaning intact.  

 

Communism is a goal and communists work towards the goal of establishing a post-capitalist communist society that's what makes them communists. You seem to be conflating the goal with the method because the same word is used for both.

 

[Tuco 5076]

4 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

I have flat feet, I’m asthmatic, I have bad knees and a bum shoulder. I haven’t shot a gun since my Daisy BB gun when I was about 10 years old. The thought that if I was Ukrainian I could be forced to stay in the country and fight scares me. I could do things to help. I could cook. I could clean. I could help render medical aid. But putting me on the front line would just make me cannon fodder and would be a waste of a gun. But if I could kill just two Russian invaders before they killed me then I would die a happy man. 

Just as a reality check, in this kind of situation, the goal is probably more like only losing 5 defenders to kill one invader.  What the Ukrainians are signing up for is a very likely possibility that they will be killed before they are ever in rifle range of a Russian soldier.  It is breathtakingly selfless.  

[Huckleberry 32851]

7 minutes ago, F250 said:

Communism is a goal and communists work towards the goal of establishing a post-capitalist communist society that's what makes them communists. You seem to be conflating the goal with the method because the same word is used for both.

 

Isn't the question whether they're actually working toward that post-capitalist communist society? Seems like they want that to happen about as much as American corporations want an actually free market (no subsidies).

Edited March 10, 2022 by Huckleberry

[Grade of D as in David 13253]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

 

This.

When "American law enforcement agencies" are one of the largest military forces in the world, with so much goddamn extra military kit that they can EXPORT it, we have a serious fucking problem.

My guess is they're going to send all of their body cams and maybe a couple of vests.

[wildcat09 29349]

1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

If our politicians were serious about neutralizing Putin’s capabilities for the long term they’d be passing sweeping anti-corruption legislation, banning dark money, seizing oligarch property, prosecuting Trump for his numerous crimes in office that also so happened to protect the Kremlin from accountability. They’re not going to do that though because reasons. So excuse me when I question these claims that we’re doing everything we can right now.

This is moving the goalposts. Goredho's post that you responded to said Putin's ability to drop an iron curtain over eastern Europe is being dismantled, and that's absolutely correct. The Russian military has been exposed as a paper tiger. They still don't have air superiority two weeks into this, their non-tracked vehicles don't have tires worth a shit, their tracked vehicles aren't maintained any better, their conscripted troops want fuckall to do with their current war and are sabotaging their own equipment, etc. They can't even keep Ukrainian farmers from riding up on tractors and stealing their shit. And now they're nearly as isolated from the global economy as North Korea, so they're not going to have the resources to fix most of their problems. It's going to be impossible for them to truly conquer Ukraine; they're sure as shit not going to be able to conquer all of eastern Europe, at least so long as the majority of their population doesn't want to mobilize to support such an effort.

[wildcat09 29349]

8 minutes ago, F250 said:

Communism is a goal and communists work towards the goal of establishing a post-capitalist communist society that's what makes them communists. You seem to be conflating the goal with the method because the same word is used for both.

 

Are you seriously arguing that modern Russia is communist?

[Mdhorn 5947]

2 hours ago, Eggo said:

All Russia had to do was have enough men to absorb the blow from the Wehrmacht long enough to let Germany lose on every other front and collapse. The Red Army was not exactly one to be admired in WWII. If the Japanese had left the US alone and attacked Russia instead, Russia would have fallen.

Straight up, Germany would've steamrolled Russia.  There were a lot of chances taken that worked out for the Allied Powers that turned the tide.  Multiple fronts was not to Germany's advantage.

[F250 28766]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

Are you seriously arguing that modern Russia is communist?

China.

 

[Mdhorn 5947]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

Are you seriously arguing that modern Russia is communist?

The top steals from everybody.  

[Eggo 3977]

2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

This is moving the goalposts. Goredho's post that you responded to said Putin's ability to drop an iron curtain over eastern Europe is being dismantled, and that's absolutely correct. The Russian military has been exposed as a paper tiger. They still don't have air superiority two weeks into this, their non-tracked vehicles don't have tires worth a shit, their tracked vehicles aren't maintained any better, their conscripted troops want fuckall to do with their current war and are sabotaging their own equipment, etc. They can't even keep Ukrainian farmers from riding up on tractors and stealing their shit. And now they're nearly as isolated from the global economy as North Korea, so they're not going to have the resources to fix most of their problems. It's going to be impossible for them to truly conquer Ukraine; they're sure as shit not going to be able to conquer all of eastern Europe, at least so long as the majority of their population doesn't want to mobilize to support such an effort.

Not to mention conquering all of eastern Europe would require an invasion of NATO member states

[Bullneck 19077]

2 hours ago, Bravo said:

I try to leave political hot takes out of DT like Homer would like me to do.

LOOK AT ME!! LOOK AT ME!!!

[F250 28766]

4 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Isn't the question whether they're actually working toward that post-capitalist communist society? Seems like they want that to happen about as much as American corporations want an actually free market (no subsidies).

Definitely a good question. I believe Xiaoping saw capitalism as means towards an end. Xi on the other hand, I am not sure. His recent "Common Prosperity" agenda seems more aimed at calming down the masses rather than an attempt to steer away from capitalism. It will be more telling what the CCP does after Xi dies.

[Captainant 27647]

21 minutes ago, F250 said:

China.

 

China is more state sponsored capitalism than it is communism at this point. The economy isn't centrally planned and micromanaged, and they use a state owned corporation model for their macroeconomic policy

[Hagbard Celine 10852]

2 hours ago, Eggo said:

All Russia had to do was have enough men to absorb the blow from the Wehrmacht long enough to let Germany lose on every other front and collapse. The Red Army was not exactly one to be admired in WWII. If the Japanese had left the US alone and attacked Russia instead, Russia would have fallen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet–Japanese_War

[Hagbard Celine 10852]

2 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

If our politicians were serious about neutralizing Putin’s capabilities for the long term they’d be passing sweeping anti-corruption legislation, banning dark money, seizing oligarch property, prosecuting Trump for his numerous crimes in office that also so happened to protect the Kremlin from accountability. They’re not going to do that though because reasons. So excuse me when I question these claims that we’re doing everything we can right now.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2022/03/02/justice-department-billionaire-russian-oligarchs/9341393002/

[Eggo 3977]

5 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet–Japanese_War

This doesn't mean anything. Japan was a whipped dog by the time the Soviets came around. Part of the reason Truman dropped the bombs was to secure a surrender before the USSR grabbed large swaths of east Asia from a Japanese military that couldn't have put up a fight. 

My point was a full strength Japan attacking a USSR that was already getting its ass kicked by Germany would have ended the  eastern front. 

[Nivek 16923]

38 minutes ago, F250 said:

Communism is a goal and communists work towards the goal of establishing a post-capitalist communist society that's what makes them communists. You seem to be conflating the goal with the method because the same word is used for both.

 

No I am a pragmatist who sees that sees through the veil.  The stated goal is a pipe dream that they will never actually work towards.  It was a nice excuse used to overthrow a monarchy and replace it with another authoritarian regime.   China has billionaires as does the current Russian regime.  Both countries arrest people for speaking out.  This is hardly a communal environment or the beginnings on one.    Or are we just in some undefined, untimed transitional period where the billionaires, oligarch are just waiting for the people to be ready to receive them.  Like those in the Ukraine.  I mean I guess they are sharing some of their tanks, bombs, and bullets with the Ukrainians from a certain point of view.  

[Bullneck 19077]

46 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

LOOK AT ME!! LOOK AT ME!!!

Not the neg I was expecting.  🤪

[fuggled 576]

14 hours ago, immamac said:

There is no way to get them jets without flying them in from some other country. What is hard about that to understand? You can't just say hey Ukrainians it's cool come get your jets from a NATO air base and fly them into Ukraine on a mission. You also can't just have someone from NATO fly them INTO Ukrainian airspace. Javelins and munitions can be driven in and dropped off at the border. Jets can't just magic themselves into Ukraine. I get it, I really do - we want them to get jets, all of us do. There is no real feasible way to get them fucking jets. 

This has probably been discussed at some point, but I haven't seen it.  Why couldn't the jets be positioned some place like Austria and have the Ukranian pilots fly them from there?  Austria isn't part of NATO.  Russia isn't going to directly retaliate militarily without going through NATO airspace.  I assume someone has already looked at this and decided it would still be too provocative.  

[Dahobbs 17533]

46 minutes ago, Captainant said:

China is more state sponsored capitalism than it is communism at this point. The economy isn't centrally planned and micromanaged, and they use a state owned corporation model for their macroeconomic policy

The Chinese disposition was always a poor match for communism. They are hyper capitalists at heart. That's just the culture. Hell, my grandmother would haggle with McDonald's worker at the mall to get a 10 cent discount on a hamburger. 

[F250 28766]

58 minutes ago, Captainant said:

China is more state sponsored capitalism than it is communism at this point. The economy isn't centrally planned and micromanaged, and they use a state owned corporation model for their macroeconomic policy

Based on Lenin's NEP. That's how this discussion started yesterday.

 

[F250 28766]

37 minutes ago, Nivek said:

No I am a pragmatist who sees that sees through the veil.  The stated goal is a pipe dream that they will never actually work towards.  It was a nice excuse used to overthrow a monarchy and replace it with another authoritarian regime.   China has billionaires as does the current Russian regime.  Both countries arrest people for speaking out.  This is hardly a communal environment or the beginnings on one.    Or are we just in some undefined, untimed transitional period where the billionaires, oligarch are just waiting for the people to be ready to receive them.  Like those in the Ukraine.  I mean I guess they are sharing some of their tanks, bombs, and bullets with the Ukrainians from a certain point of view.  

All of this is irrelevant. If a nation has an underlining ideology that guides their policies then it's important to understand it. It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not.

At this point we are in the Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy nor Roman territory.

 

[Mdhorn 5947]

5 minutes ago, F250 said:

All of this is irrelevant. If a nation has an underlining ideology that guides their policies then it's important to understand it. It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not.

At this point we are in the Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy nor Roman territory.

 

You both are right.  The point of Communism isn't to have billionaires, but it's still communism for the general population or avg citizen.   

[Eggo 3977]

48 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

The Chinese disposition was always a poor match for communism. They are hyper capitalists at heart. That's just the culture. Hell, my grandmother would haggle with McDonald's worker at the mall to get a 10 cent discount on a hamburger. 

[Hookah Horns 3083]

1 hour ago, fuggled said:

This has probably been discussed at some point, but I haven't seen it.  Why couldn't the jets be positioned some place like Austria and have the Ukranian pilots fly them from there?  Austria isn't part of NATO.  Russia isn't going to directly retaliate militarily without going through NATO airspace.  I assume someone has already looked at this and decided it would still be too provocative.  

I really don't believe Putin would respond militarily against NATO anyway. This guy is more worried about a hot war with the west than we are. Especially as united as NATO is now. 

[Hookah Horns 3083]

4 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

If our politicians were serious about neutralizing Putin’s capabilities for the long term they’d be passing sweeping anti-corruption legislation, banning dark money, seizing oligarch property, prosecuting Trump for his numerous crimes in office that also so happened to protect the Kremlin from accountability. They’re not going to do that though because reasons. So excuse me when I question these claims that we’re doing everything we can right now.

That's all coming down the pike after Putin starts with the chemical weapons. Except the Trump thing, because Garland has no sack. 

[Hagbard Celine 10852]

1 hour ago, Eggo said:

This doesn't mean anything. Japan was a whipped dog by the time the Soviets came around. Part of the reason Truman dropped the bombs was to secure a surrender before the USSR grabbed large swaths of east Asia from a Japanese military that couldn't have put up a fight. 

My point was a full strength Japan attacking a USSR that was already getting its ass kicked by Germany would have ended the  eastern front. 

you posted your reply in less than 5 minutes guaranteeing your dismissive opening was not a result of actually reading the infallible content subverting your positions on both topics.  but this is not the thread for a discussion of ww2 history.

[Horn Dog 9817]

If the issue is where the planes take off from, then lease Ukraine 1/10th of a airbase in Poland and temporarily declare it Ukrainian soil.  Then surround it with 15 patriot missile batteries and tell Putin he is free to try to attack that 1/10th of the airbase,  but we will blast anything within 50 miles out of the sky and if so much as a bullet lands on the other 9/10th of the base, then article 5 will be invoked.  
 

[Anastasis 23469]

3 hours ago, DDD Dad said:

Stop de-funding the police!

[Eggo 3977]

9 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

you posted your reply in less than 5 minutes guaranteeing your dismissive opening was not a result of actually reading the infallible content subverting your positions on both topics.  but this is not the thread for a discussion of ww2 history.

Oh don't be such a bitch. If you're going to post wikipedia links with no context as some sort of point, you deserve the dismissive reply you get. 

[Gil Bang 25937]

 

[wildcat09 29349]

Does Ukraine really have a bunch of trained fighter pilots waiting around without planes? They seem to be doing a pretty good job denying Russia air superiority with whatever air force they've got and the basically infinite stingers we're giving them. 

[bolverk 29659]

3 minutes ago, Bravo said:

I don't live to neg like some. Maybe have ever given out 10-15 ever like if someone brought my kids into something. Some it is their life blood though. A cathartic orgasmic release.

Quit your fucking bitching about what you perceive to be CR shit over there in the other thread. Your gotdam avatar itself is CR worthy.

[cactusflinthead 27598]

1 hour ago, Dahobbs said:

The Chinese disposition was always a poor match for communism. They are hyper capitalists at heart. That's just the culture. Hell, my grandmother would haggle with McDonald's worker at the mall to get a 10 cent discount on a hamburger. 

I just had a Jimmy Yang stand up replay in my brain.

"It wasn't love. It was a good deal."

[WhatTheBuck 28776]

21 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

 

War monger!

That’s what they’d say if Hillary said the same thing, anyway. 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19100]

30 minutes ago, Bravo said:

I don't live to neg like some. Maybe have ever given out 10-15 ever like if someone brought my kids into something. Some it is their life blood though. A cathartic orgasmic release.

Complaining about rep again.  Jesus, you suck.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

44 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

 

 

Easy for Mitt to say. He and his tribe have been preparing for this for 150 years. They'll finally get at that year's supply of cans and jars and frozen food before they expire. 

[956 Worldwide 34705]

1 hour ago, F250 said:

All of this is irrelevant. If a nation has an underlining ideology that guides their policies then it's important to understand it. It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not.

At this point we are in the Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy nor Roman territory.

 

True fact, real Communism has never been tried, all the real Communists tell me so. 
 

Debates over whether Communists are really Communists remind me of debates over “real” Islam or Christianity or Libertariansim. There is no such thing, there is only what Communists/Muslims/Christians/Libertarians actually do or believe. At some point if someone tells you they’re a Communist/Muslim/Christian/Libertarians you just gotta take their word for it. 

[Eggo 3977]

Wait, cans and jars expire? I need to make a call..

[Eggo 3977]

49 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Does Ukraine really have a bunch of trained fighter pilots waiting around without planes? They seem to be doing a pretty good job denying Russia air superiority with whatever air force they've got and the basically infinite stingers we're giving them. 

My brother retired a couple years ago from the US Army as a Blackhawk pilot. When this nonsense started a few weeks ago, he insisted there was almost no chance he'd be recalled. "They'll run out of helicopters before they run out of pilots." I would think this is a common across nations.

[WhatTheBuck 28776]

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

True fact, real Communism has never been tried, all the real Communists tell me so. 
 

Debates over whether Communists are really Communists remind me of debates over “real” Islam or Christianity or Libertariansim. There is no such thing, there is only what Communists/Muslims/Christians/Libertarians actually do or believe. At some point if someone tells you they’re a Communist/Muslim/Christian/Libertarians you just gotta take their word for it. 

There really are no true Scotsmen when you think about it. Or maybe they all are. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

6 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

True fact, real Communism has never been tried, all the real Communists tell me so.

Imperialist Russia was probably a bad place to first attempt communism. 

[956 Worldwide 34705]

Just now, Eggo said:

My brother retired a couple years ago from the US Army as a Blackhawk pilot. When this nonsense started a few weeks ago, he insisted there was almost no chance he'd be recalled. "They'll run out of helicopters before they run out of pilots." I would think this is a common across nations.

No, plenty of countries have the airframes but not the pilots, you’re seeing this even in Russia. There gets to be a spiral- maintenance is expensive, so let’s cut flight hours. Flight hours that are easiest to cut— training and keeping current. Oh shit, our pilots aren’t getting enough hours, better catch up. Shit, we’re flying the hell out of our fleet and can’t afford to maintain…..

[Eggo 3977]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Imperialist Russia was probably a bad place to first attempt communism. 

It wasn't. The Iriquois were an inspiration for Marx. 

[henrygandorf 29189]

5 hours ago, Bravo said:

LOL, one thread can involve political hot takes and the other shouldn't so I post different stuff. Probably why there are different threads and the board was created as such.

good lord.  i just caught up on the last 5 pages and all of your contributions are complaints.  party of grievance indeed.

politics are allowed on this board.  this means you can post anything you want here.  the other boards are the ones with restrictions.

you can post rah rah shit here, memes here, political shit here, whatever you want.  my guess is that you refuse to post political shit here because your politics suck.

[cactusflinthead 27598]

Rot in hell Putin

[DDD Dad 14332]

1 hour ago, Bravo said:

I don't live to neg like some. Maybe have given out 10-15 ever like if someone brought my kids into something. Some it is their life blood though. A cathartic orgasmic release.

[DDD Dad 14332]

55 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

 

Easy for Mitt to say. He and his tribe have been preparing for this for 150 years. They'll finally get at that year's supply of cans and jars and frozen food before they expire. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

1 hour ago, Gil Bang said: