Ukraine War

[immamac 44354]

1 minute ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

Well then I hope you shun the Ukrainian refugees that just took a quiet train out and only embrace those that had to do commando rolls to avoid gunfire.  

I'm beyond this argument. They are not comparable is the point. All kids deserve to be safe as stated earlier, but from a refugee perspective they are completely different. 

[DDD Dad 14650]

1 minute ago, immamac said:

I'm beyond this argument. They are not comparable is the point. All kids deserve to be safe as stated earlier, but from a refugee perspective they are completely different. 

Agreed.  The second kid has brown skin.

[immamac 44354]

1 minute ago, DDD Dad said:

Agreed.  The second kid has brown skin.

Sure that's why. Fucking whatever. 

[Brisketexan 106899]

I'm beyond this argument. They are not comparable is the point. All kids deserve to be safe as stated earlier, but from a refugee perspective they are completely different. 

As a father who would do anything to protect his family….they are far more similar than they are different.
It doesn’t matter to me whether my family is killed by a bomb or indiscriminate gang murder. Their broken, bloody bodies are the same.
A brutally unsafe place is a brutally unsafe place. And people flee them. That’s what humans do.
We should provide them a safe landing spot. Thats what good humans do.

[hookemATL 12274]

Trauma = trauma. 

well let’s just settle this now and give Ukrainian kid the gold medal in the PTSD Olympics and the Hispanic kid gets silver. American kid gets bronze bc parents took away iPad for a week. 

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11669]

2 minutes ago, hookemATL said:

a week

The Hague awaits. 

[Anastasis 23720]

  

35 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

While the reasons for this war resonating are complex

Are they though?  

 

[Guest Lobo]

6 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

  

Are they though?  

 

It went from border patrols to 'Ukraine is actually Russian in its heart' to de-nazification to force posture versus NATO to 'we had no choice because of high energy prices due to climate change hysteria' to 'we have to save Ukraine from U.S. chemical warfare.'  It's pretty fucking complex if you listen to the reasons given by the actual belligerent.  

I am morbidly curious what their rationale will be for the invasion next week.  to save the world from George Soros, child sex trafficking, and the ballads of a Mister Ronan Sinatra?  

[DDD Dad 14650]

21 minutes ago, immamac said:

Sure that's why. Fucking whatever. 

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11669]

4 minutes ago, Lobo said:

if you listen to the reasons given by the actual belligerent.  

Well, yeah, that’s the issue isn’t it. 

[Guest Lobo]

and i'd say another issue on top of that, for us at least, is that many in our country are aiding them in broadcasting their bullshit rationales.  

[Nivek 17415]

10 hours ago, immamac said:

Bravo is on vacation for a week

Bravo?

[Anastasis 23720]

17 minutes ago, Lobo said:

It went from border patrols to 'Ukraine is actually Russian in its heart' to de-nazification to force posture versus NATO to 'we had no choice because of high energy prices due to climate change hysteria' to 'we have to save Ukraine from U.S. chemical warfare.'  It's pretty fucking complex if you listen to the reasons given by the actual belligerent.    

 

Like a child that wanders into a movie. 

[Anastasis 23720]

13 minutes ago, Lobo said:

and i'd say another issue on top of that, for us at least, is that many in our country are aiding them in broadcasting their bullshit rationales.  

Closer, I think. 

[TexArcher 39072]

51 minutes ago, immamac said:

I'm beyond this argument. They are not comparable is the point. All kids deserve to be safe as stated earlier, but from a refugee perspective they are completely different. 

They are different types of refugees, to be sure.

But should we, or any other civilized nation, treat them differently?

Especially if we helped create the problems in Latin America that they're so often forced to run from?

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13629]

9 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

 

Like a child that wanders into a movie. 

...so are the days of our lives.

[Brisketexan 106899]

  
Are they though?  
 

They are. Among them are the shattering of the illusion that a continent with a history of near constant warfare had left that behind, and was setting the tone and mode for peace and prosperity. That’s really big.

[Anastasis 23720]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

They are. Among them are the shattering of the illusion that a continent with a history of near constant warfare had left that behind, and was setting the tone and mode for peace and prosperity. That’s really big.

So we're back to this really resonates with people because this one is impacting white Europeans?

Edited March 12, 2022 by Anastasis

[MC Fresh Breath 4075]

2 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Of course he will. It’s a white European baby. 

Yep.  Trevor Noah, among others, has had some pretty good stuff on how Poland treated Syrian refugees versus Ukrainian refugees.  The differences are stark and brutal.

[jimmyjazz 47203]

19 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

So we're back to this really resonates with people because this one is impacting white Europeans?

Is that surprising to you?

[pacman 7508]

20 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

So we're back to this really resonates with people because this one is impacting white Europeans?

Syria is also largely muslim.

[Anastasis 23720]

2 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Is that surprising to you?

No, just don't think that it is particularly complex. 

[WhatTheBuck 28930]

1 hour ago, DDD Dad said:

Agreed.  The second kid has brown skin.

And brown-skinned people report having a harder time fleeing Ukraine than white-skinned people. As if we couldn’t guess that of course that would be the case. I mean, HELLO! What world are you living in?

https://news.yahoo.com/africansinukraine-escaping-students-describe-rejection-103040411.html

[Nivek 17415]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Yep.
While the reasons for this war resonating are complex, and are far from just “they’re white,” there are some very uncomfortable questions being asked. Here’s a good one a pastor friend of mine shared:



If human suffering caused by actions beyond the control of the victims resonates with us, it should do so consistently. If you are moved by the plight of refugees, then you should have been helping at the border, working with RAICES, etc, for years.
Maybe my optimistic hope is that some people are seeing the parallels above and realizing “holy shit, I have to care about them both.” Better late than never. But, that’s me being an optimist, which has proven to have no place in this timeline.

Calling one kid a hero, and the other in a 'detention center' isn't the reality of either kid.   The UK kid is going to be processed through whichever nation's (Poland?) system they have set up for dealing with refugees.  The CA(SA) boy is going to be processed through the system set up for dealing with refugees.   

Our job is to elect people who make this process less cruel here.  

Human compassion has a threshold.   We are more than happy to help with a crisis that is punctuated.  But when it is ongoing, our interest wanes.  

 

[Anastasis 23720]

1 minute ago, Nivek said:

But when it is ongoing, our interest wanes.  

There is certainly a lot to this observation. 

[bangkok 89]

i do wonder the messaging from putin's side.

specifically to the west, what was he trying to convey?

as 200k troops amassed it was.. nope, no invasion, while all intel points otherwise.

then the quick recognization of luhansk/donetsk.

followed by a quick invasion and clear plans for regime change.

obviously advancing oustide of the "nazi" areas.

followed by an ass-kicking to this point, by most reports.

it's ludicrous.

 

[WhatTheBuck 28930]

10 minutes ago, bangkok said:

i do wonder the messaging from putin's side.

specifically to the west, what was he trying to convey?

as 200k troops amassed it was.. nope, no invasion, while all intel points otherwise.

then the quick recognization of luhansk/donetsk.

followed by a quick invasion and clear plans for regime change.

obviously advancing oustide of the "nazi" areas.

followed by an ass-kicking to this point, by most reports.

it's ludicrous.

 

The messaging I’m getting is that the Russian military sucks and we would totally kick their ass if we wanted to. 

[Gatorubet 30720]

Absolutely nothing

Say it again

[Hagbard Celine 11254]

3 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

Hey now.  I can't retrain my right thumb all that easily.

90 words per minute on a Selectric, bitches.

150 in 10th grade

the hot typing teacher had to stop doing her bright red nails to watch me fly....   mrs. walker, but no ring, probably 27ish at the time

if i was smart i would have exploited the situation

she had that "wet" look on her face

[Goredho 17656]

I’ll be honest.  Ukraine refugees, Honduran refugees — I wish them a better fate.  But I am not here out of empathy for any innocents.  I’m here to see the downfall of Vladimir Putin.  This fucking asshole has been waging war on this country for the last 6 years at least while we have tried our best to ignore him and hope he went away.  It’s time he got his just fucking desserts.

 

[Hagbard Celine 11254]

2 hours ago, Bateshorn said:

Well, Ecuador is in South, not Central America, and while not exactly Chile, is stablish for that area of the world

OTOH, El Salvador and Honduras are  in Central America and are both borderline failed states.  And Nicuragua and Guatemala  aren’t much better. 

and not to pile on imma, but for certainty, it is impossible to walk from south america to central america without heavy equipment to cut the jungle and cross a deep swamp

[Neonmoon 38130]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

As a father who would do anything to protect his family….they are far more similar than they are different.
It doesn’t matter to me whether my family is killed by a bomb or indiscriminate gang murder. Their broken, bloody bodies are the same.
A brutally unsafe place is a brutally unsafe place. And people flee them. That’s what humans do.
We should provide them a safe landing spot. Thats what good humans do.

I’m sorry, but I respectfully disagree. There is a difference between a Ukrainian refugee and a Venezuelan refugee, and it’s not skin color. Just because you correctly identify that both situations might require a prudent parent to flee, it doesn’t mean we should provide them a safe landing spot. Not because I disagree with you generally, but because of resources. Under your criteria, pretty much the entire third world would qualify to immigrate to the US and as good humans, we should let them. That’s a great moral place to live, but it’s just realistic or practical. 
 

As far as racism, a better comparison would be to the Syrian refugees. They were also escaping bombings but were roundly rejected by Europe, and it definitely was a cultural rejection (or race if you want to say that) 

[InkaUtexas 26891]

 

[DDD Dad 14650]

26 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

150 in 10th grade

the hot typing teacher had to stop doing her bright red nails to watch me fly....   mrs. walker, but no ring, probably 27ish at the time

if i was smart i would have exploited the situation

she had that "wet" look on her face

Sounds like a trap to me.

[RomaVicta 30591]

14 hours ago, cactusflinthead said:

I'm not reading your DM. It can stay on notifications forever. I'll wear it like a goddamn medal.

 

Damn. I only saw Prine in his later career and didn't get why he was so highly regarded. This song was released, I looked it up, in 1971. It's fucking great. I need to look at his work before the stuff he did that reached my ears. 

Please forgive me, Mr. Prine. 

[jimmyjazz 47203]

1 minute ago, RomaVicta said:

Damn. I only saw Prine in his later career and didn't get why he was so highly regarded. This song was released, I looked it up, in 1971. It's fucking great. I need to look at his work before the stuff he did that reached my ears. 

Please forgive me, Mr. Prine. 

He was a brilliant songwriter.  He injected a lot of humor into his songs, but that just served as contrast to those where he didn't go for the chuckles.  All were poignant.

[Brisketexan 106899]

So we're back to this really resonates with people because this one is impacting white Europeans?

Again, yes, but it’s not that simple. Of 350 million Americans, probably 80% have recent ancestry/family from Europe. That makes it more relatable to our society. The last giant, and well-remembered war was largely fought on European soil. And, that war brought about a seismic change: a continent that found itself embroiled in almost constant war for hundreds of years was at a long-lasting peace. And, we’re seeing it undone by what was our primary geopolitical adversary for two generations.

So, yes. That war will resonate more with Americans than a war in Central America, or the Middle East, or SE Asia. It’s not just about “they’re white.” That’s shallow and lazy. It’s not NOT part of the mix. But it’s a whole lot more than that. For example, the world and the US didn’t react this way during the Bosnian war, and the bulk of the victims were “white” as well. It was lower scale, internal, not brought by our great adversary, and didn’t jeopardize the progress of greater Europe.

[hookemATL 12274]

35 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

I’m sorry, but I respectfully disagree. There is a difference between a Ukrainian refugee and a Venezuelan refugee, and it’s not skin color. Just because you correctly identify that both situations might require a prudent parent to flee, it doesn’t mean we should provide them a safe landing spot. Not because I disagree with you generally, but because of resources. Under your criteria, pretty much the entire third world would qualify to immigrate to the US and as good humans, we should let them. That’s a great moral place to live, but it’s just realistic or practical. 
 

As far as racism, a better comparison would be to the Syrian refugees. They were also escaping bombings but were roundly rejected by Europe, and it definitely was a cultural rejection (or race if you want to say that) 

Let’s work out a trade where each immigrant is swapped out for any American citizen that does not return the cart to the designated area at the grocery store.

[MissingInAction 25556]

Has anyone encountered any Russian sympathizers in real-life yet? 

[henrygandorf 29225]

4 minutes ago, hookemATL said:

Let’s work out a trade where each immigrant is swapped out for any American citizen that does not return the cart to the designated area at the grocery store.

or who hangs the toilet paper roll underhanded.

[InkaUtexas 26891]

2 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

Has anyone encountered any Russian sympathizers in real-life yet? 

Yes. A few nights ago at my local watering hole. Dude was all about how Putin's power needed to be listened to, how his hold on crypto could bankrupt us all, blah blah blah. I finished by beer, called him an asshole and with two Canadian friends we got up and moved to another table. He tried to follow. Stout Canadian tells him to fuck off and go live in Russia. He ended up continuing his speal to another group, not knowing one of the people at that table was the bar manager. He was politely asked to GTFO. Have not seen him back there. 

[MissingInAction 25556]

2 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

or who hangs the toilet paper roll underhanded.

Easy...That's just another form of genocide. 

[RomaVicta 30591]

5 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

So is Vlad bringing in Syrians because he doesn’t want his own forced killed? Same with throwing the Chechens at it. Is that why he doesn’t just send more Russians?

 

He knows Russian Armies have mutinied before. From the Socialist Worker (googled, not a subscriber):

Quote

When the Cossack cavalry refused to shoot protesting women workers in Petrograd on 23 February 1917 it was a sign of doom for Tsar Nicholas II.

The women were amazed when the soldiers heeded their call and refused their officers’ demands.

It flowed from pent-up fury at the war. The First World War was in its third year—and over two million Russian troops were dead.

Starvation was rife while the rich led opulent lifestyles.

The women’s protest triggered strikes and demonstrations that brought the city to a standstill. Within days mutiny had engulfed the troops garrisoning it.

Russian autocrats have lost the Army before. I wonder what Assad gets out of this. A nuke?

[Bateshorn 9991]

19 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

or who hangs the toilet paper roll underhanded.

People with small children and cat owners would like to have a word.

[Sbbruin 22144]

17 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Another innocent yacht, which has led a blameless life, taken into custody.

 

They should take that abomination out and sink it.  It is the most grotesque “sailing yacht” in the history of forever.

 

[Anastasis 23720]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Again, yes, but it’s not that simple. Of 350 million Americans, probably 80% have recent ancestry/family from Europe. That makes it more relatable to our society. The last giant, and well-remembered war was largely fought on European soil. And, that war brought about a seismic change: a continent that found itself embroiled in almost constant war for hundreds of years was at a long-lasting peace. And, we’re seeing it undone by what was our primary geopolitical adversary for two generations.

So, yes. That war will resonate more with Americans than a war in Central America, or the Middle East, or SE Asia. It’s not just about “they’re white.” That’s shallow and lazy. It’s not NOT part of the mix. But it’s a whole lot more than that. For example, the world and the US didn’t react this way during the Bosnian war, and the bulk of the victims were “white” as well. It was lower scale, internal, not brought by our great adversary, and didn’t jeopardize the progress of greater Europe.

I think that you are avoiding the most obvious factor that shapes public awareness and perception. I am not saying that it is just “they’re white”. Just that the explanations including that one are not particularly complex. 

[Bookman 4764]

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

 Thats what good humans do.

Lol.

[InkaUtexas 26891]

4 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

They should take that abomination out and sink it.  It is the most grotesque “sailing yacht” in the history of forever.

 

Need to make it a UA pirate ship. 

[RDCanecutter 26893]

1 minute ago, Sbbruin said:

They should take that abomination out and sink it.  It is the most grotesque “sailing yacht” in the history of forever.

 

If I were a Russian Bazillionaire, my yacht would have traditional old-school rigging and I would buy actual tar-crusted humans to clamber up and down ratlines during high storms, and amuse me with their rum-fueled antics when becalmed.

[hookemATL 12274]

Ukrainian Pirates We!