"At the start of 2022, 64% of the U.S. population was living paycheck to paycheck"

[Bookman 4610]

22 minutes ago, Zeus said:

You can ride the city bus I'll keep living 2 mins away from my office.

Also what about people who have to drive around to job sites or wherever for work? You want them to spend most of their day waiting around at bus stops with homeless people?

It's just not realistic in most of Texas. People live in the burbs.

Then they need to pull themselves up by the bootstraps. This is how capitalism works. Americans are so entitled.

[Bookman 4610]

And let's not forget all the oil and gas bankruptcies under Trump. I have clients that simply can't afford to drill wells now that oil is over $100/BBL. Trump bankrupted their businesses like his own.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

13 hours ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Haven't these sorts of surveys been debunked yet? How many "75% of people don't have $400 for an emergency" articles have there been? And then COVID hit, which arguably could not have been a bigger shock, and people were able to get through it with better balance sheets than before the pandemic. 

Uhhh

[WBT 20422]

44 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

Be competent enough to fill out and submit an expense report?

They just write it off

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Immaculate Vibes said:

Where did you get this idea?

Source 1:
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-04/the-400-emergency-expense-story-is-wrong

Source 2:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/americans-finances-got-stronger-in-the-pandemicconfounding-early-fears-11641736069

Source 3:
Outstanding credit card debt:

Source 4:
Real income gains (https://realtimeinequality.org/)

Source 5:
Real retail sales

 

Don't get me wrong. Plenty of people do live paycheck to paycheck. But these surveys often overreport how bad things are.

 

[Bullneck 18987]

9 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

Eh. I’m on 1/4 on tank #2 this week at 4.69 #2.  Irritating, but I’d wager there’s lots of people that can’t afford ~250/week/vehicle in fuel. 

If you can't afford it, why not buy a more energy efficient car?

Seriously, who is dumb enough to think energy prices are going to stay low forever?  

[Aqua Buddha 14521]

2 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

If you can't afford it, why not buy a more energy efficient car?

Seriously, who is dumb enough to think energy prices are going to stay low forever?  

I think we all have people on our socials who drive F-250's with truck nuts and a lift kit so they can drive to the office from some far flung exurb and they're legitimate surprised about this.

[Guest]

When the dudes on I-10 in the Dodge Rams slow from 90 mph to 80 mph, then I'll know that we have a problem.

[StassneyHorn 6540]

2 hours ago, Zeus said:

It's just another hidden tax on the working class, inflation. It's not just going to be gasoline bub, everything gets to where it needs to be using the same gas. The cost of living just went up (again) while the working class wages aren't catching up fast enough.

They kept saying inflation was under control last year, it was supposed to be 2-4% or something? It was like 7%. It's going to get worse this year.

You or I being professionals may not get hurt that much, but the majority of the working class has a much tighter budget. 

I don’t have any other whimsical musings about poors being poors. Those lint lickers should pick themselves up by their new balances and light a scented candle for Joe. Inflation is easily controlled by adjusting individual behavior.

[fattyflattie 4636]

31 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

If you can't afford it, why not buy a more energy efficient car?

Seriously, who is dumb enough to think energy prices are going to stay low forever?  

I can’t speak to others buying habits. I’m sure people in that position buy what they can afford, and worry about its fuel efficiency after initial price and reliability. I’m only stating that $100/mo is likely a low estimate for tons of people.  
 

Im assuming anyone with a 70k truck can afford the fuel for it.  

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

41 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

If you can't afford it, why not buy a more energy efficient car?

Seriously, who is dumb enough to think energy prices are going to stay low forever?  

We ran the math, and it was a hell of a lot cheaper to buy a used good fuel mileage sedan or small SUV and then pay the delivery fee when we needed the odd thing hauled from Lowe's or wherever. I mean, you can haul a six foot Christmas tree in a small Honda if you put it on a tarp. If someone judges me based on what I drive, then sucks to their ass-mar. Our 'new' car is a 2013.

[Captainant 27464]

15 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Im assuming anyone with a 70k truck can afford the fuel for it.  

[horn4life 3755]

16 hours ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

From the "it's probably bullshit anecdotal file".  Have a buddy from UT who's is a CPA and also has a law degree from UT.  He has a colleague who is a tax attorney and supposedly has quite a few clients in the River Oaks area.  His TA friend swears a solid percentage of RO folks are paycheck to paycheck.  

That's all I got, but you might be more right than you know. 

Yeah the trust fund inheritance folks got their parents house, but in most cases not the work ethic.  Had an old guy, whose father was a very wealthy attorney and he was bragging about his wealthy upbringing.  I told him that I doubted many of the people he knew still lived there as my experience with the few River Oaks kids I knew, were only cashing their parents checks, not building their own careers.  He explained to me I did not understand the level of wealth he was talking about.  I'm 60 and he was late 80's?, and I got pissed talking to the old fart, and asked him to write down a few names of folks he knew.  I picked up his tab to still my temper.

i searched the street name in the Harris County appraisal district, and not a single name he mentioned lived on the street.  It would not surprise me at all that the kids of the rish live paycheck to paycheck.  Simply as they are certain the check will come on the first, so they spend it all.

[horn4life 3755]

52 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

When the dudes on I-10 in the Dodge Rams slow from 90 mph to 80 mph, then I'll know that we have a problem.

I wish those fuckers would drive 90, or pull the fuck out of the passing lane and let my ass by!

[Beau Vine 54003]

15 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

I'm in consumer retail and can tell that the OP is fairly accurate.  You can see signifiant spikes around the 1st and the 15th of the month.  Most consumers are out of money by the last few days of the month.

 

There was one time that I made the mistake of going to the San Marcos HEB on the 1st or 15th of some month.  Now, I just pretend it's closed on those days.

[Aqua Buddha 14521]

You talk to wealth management people that deal with the rich but not wealth crowd (if that makes sense) and you'd be surprised how many are stretched.  Yeah, they have a high income or a trust fund but they blow through it.

Remember this:  Every economic tier has people that are stretching to be there.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Aqua Buddha said:

You talk to wealth management people that deal with the rich but not wealth crowd (if that makes sense) and you'd be surprised how many are stretched.  Yeah, they have a high income or a trust fund but they blow through it.

Remember this:  Every economic tier has people that are stretching to be there.

Damn I hope so. I see the houses that people live in and the associated costs and I don't understand it. What are all these people doing for work to afford all that?

By any objective measure I am doing just fine, progressing, building wealth, etc. But we bought our first home in 2016. Now it seems like we're going to end up being here a lot longer than anticipated despite having a nice income.

Who the hell is buying these houses for $1.5 million that were $700K five years ago? The taxes alone would be $30K a year. 

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

2 hours ago, StassneyHorn said:

I don’t have any other whimsical musings about poors being poors. Those lint lickers should pick themselves up by their new balances and light a scented candle for Joe. Inflation is easily controlled by adjusting individual behavior.

Depends how you adjust your behavior. Can go the other way as well. 

[Biff Tannen 45497]

1 hour ago, Beau Vine said:

There was one time that I made the mistake of going to the San Marcos HEB on the 1st or 15th of some month.  Now, I just pretend it's closed on those days.

I mean, when is it ever open really?

[Biff Tannen 45497]

22 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Who the hell is buying these houses for $1.5 million that were $700K five years ago? The taxes alone would be $30K a year. 

And they are under 45 and have like 4 kids.  I don't get it.  They are all over Austin.

[Beau Vine 54003]

I can understand buying an expensive house, because that's an investment that could pay off down the line.  I can't fathom a family having a couple of cars that cost over $100K total.

[babysdaddy 2718]

8 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

I can understand buying an expensive house, because that's an investment that could pay off down the line.  I can't fathom a family having a couple of cars that cost over $100K total.

what about having an extra car for their nanny to drive?

 

Aqua is right, even certain rich people have trouble making ends meet.  

[Aqua Buddha 14521]

Also, another rule about wealth.  Inheritance is the great unseen hand of wealth in America.  You don't understand how that dentist or something lives in a $3M house in the park cities?  Inheritance.  

[TexasEd 8064]

There really needs to be some clarification and consistency of terms here because people use terms to sound inflammatory to make political points.  If we were trying to use precise language and focus on economics there are a few different categories under this "paycheck to paycheck" headline and there are others that should be defined.

All of these can describe people living paycheck to paycheck:

1. People at or below the poverty line that could lose access to housing with the loss of a paycheck
2. People that have credit to extend essential expenses like housing and food for a few months
3. People that have to cancel their streaming services, cable, unused gym memberships or maybe turn in their lease of their M3 BMW or F250 Platinum so they can afford their Starbucks
4. People that will have to take a less extravagant vacation this summer, maybe Rome instead of Bali

Edited March 9, 2022 by TexasEd

[fattyflattie 4636]

43 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Who the hell is buying these houses for $1.5 million that were $700K five years ago? The taxes alone would be $30K a year. 

This is what fucked us. Was working our way into an area that’s ~700-3m community for last 7-10 years.  Since ‘19 it’s a 1.1-3m community.  

24 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

And they are under 45 and have like 4 kids.  I don't get it.  They are all over Austin.

I get that. I don’t get the ones who also have all 4 of them in private school.  Oof.  

[Dahobbs 17447]

22 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

I can understand buying an expensive house, because that's an investment that could pay off down the line.  I can't fathom a family having a couple of cars that cost over $100K total.

The average new car price is sitting right around 47k (https://www.kbb.com/car-news/average-new-car-price-declines/). I don't think two cars over $100k total (versus each) is that crazy for a family, especially if the family has kids and needs a larger vehicle.  

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

3 hours ago, Bullneck said:

If you can't afford it, why not buy a more energy efficient car?

Seriously, who is dumb enough to think energy prices are going to stay low forever?  

Is this sarcasm?

 

[Beau Vine 54003]

9 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

The average new car price is sitting right around 47k (https://www.kbb.com/car-news/average-new-car-price-declines/). I don't think two cars over $100k total (versus each) is that crazy for a family, especially if the family has kids and needs a larger vehicle.  

From your link:

Quote

But prices have also risen because Americans continue choosing more expensive vehicles. The final sale price of the average non-luxury car has declined for three straight months, but Americans have bought enough luxury vehicles to keep the overall average increasing.

 

[Aqua Buddha 14521]

26 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

This is what fucked us. Was working our way into an area that’s ~700-3m community for last 7-10 years.  Since ‘19 it’s a 1.1-3m community.  

I get that. I don’t get the ones who also have all 4 of them in private school.  Oof.  

Grandparents might be floating the private school tab.

When I said "inheritance is the great unseen hand of wealth in American," it's not just a pile of money when someone dies.  It's help at every single step of the way.  It's not to say that every family like that has a rich relative somewhere but a lot do.

[fattyflattie 4636]

1 minute ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Grandparents might be floating the private school tab.

When I said "inheritance is the great unseen hand of wealth in American," it's not just a pile of money when someone dies.  It's help at every single step of the way.  It's not to say that every family like that has a rich relative somewhere but a lot do.

No I get it, I have more than a few friends who were annually gifted the max amount to help with tax situations.  But there’s some I know personally (neighbors in particular) that just leaves me wondering how they do it.  I’m guessing 0.00 savings. 

13 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

From your link:

Quote

But prices have also risen because Americans continue choosing more expensive vehicles. The final sale price of the average non-luxury car has declined for three straight months, but Americans have bought enough luxury vehicles to keep the overall average increasing.

 

I read somewhere a few years ago now that something like 70% of Ford’s super duties are Lariat trim or higher.   

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

1 minute ago, fattyflattie said:

No I get it, I have more than a few friends who were annually gifted the max amount to help with tax situations.  But there’s some I know personally (neighbors in particular) that just leaves me wondering how they do it.  I’m guessing 0.00 savings. 

I read somewhere a few years ago now that something like 70% of Ford’s super duties are Lariat trim or higher.   

why have a retirement plan when you can pretty shinies!?

[Aqua Buddha 14521]

32 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

The average new car price is sitting right around 47k (https://www.kbb.com/car-news/average-new-car-price-declines/). I don't think two cars over $100k total (versus each) is that crazy for a family, especially if the family has kids and needs a larger vehicle.  

It's not crazy for a family but certainly not advisable.  Drive through any $250Kish neighborhood and you'll see F-150's, Tahoes, BMW's, etc.  If you do the math on car payments, they could easily be spending $1200-$1500 per month combined.  Might be more than their mortgage in some cases.

Also, in relation to car payments, the average term is now like 6 years.  Twenty years ago, the max was five years but they've stretched the terms out because most everyone is a payment shopper.  This alone explains the rise in the cost of a new car.

[Celery Man 20886]

I was just trying to check the lowest actual price of a Ford F150 (any model any trim) I could find and it's... in the 40s? That's gotta still be a supply chain thing, as of a few years ago you could still get the bottom of the barrel vinyl floored smallest engined no cab F150 XL for a pinch above 20 grand. I'm broadly with Beau Vine in that rising avg car costs have more to do with people buying expensive assed cars than the actual price going up. I wanted to check that price because I remember on this site a few years back some discussion lamenting how trucks used to be cheap and now you can't buy a pickup for under $60k. Upon some poking the issue turned out to be that these days you need a truck with leather seats that suck the farts out of your asshole.

[Dahobbs 17447]

24 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

From your link:

 

Even new non-luxury cars are above $40,000.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/new-vehicle-prices-retreat-from-record-highs-but-remain-well-above-msrp-according-to-kelley-blue-book-301478514.html#:~:text=The average price paid for,the third consecutive monthly decrease.

Quote

The average price paid for a new non-luxury vehicle last month was $42,859, down $294 and marking the third consecutive monthly decrease. 

As I said, I don't think 100k combined for vehicles is that crazy for a family with kids. Pretty much any decent sized SUV or Minivan is going to have you knocking on 40k before any options. Used cars are of course an option and usually cheaper (not so much in the current market). I agree families could spend less. I just disagree that 100k is per-se an unreasonable total car budget for a family of 4. 

[Aqua Buddha 14521]

Some quick math on cars.

$25K loan over 5 years is the same payment as a $30K loan over 6 years.  People just care about the payments so they just raised the prices and adjusted the terms with their own financing wings.

[WBT 20422]

There's also the question of how quickly you churn through them.  Lots of vehicles will run forever these days.

[Macanudo 12928]

19 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

No I get it, I have more than a few friends who were annually gifted the max amount to help with tax situations.  But there’s some I know personally (neighbors in particular) that just leaves me wondering how they do it.  I’m guessing 0.00 savings. 

I read somewhere a few years ago now that something like 70% of Ford’s super duties are Lariat trim or higher.   

There are at least 3 guys in my immediate suburban neighborhood driving F-350 duallies.   I know for a fact that all three work downtown in white collar jobs and only one of them has anything that needs towing with their truck (a ski boat that a regular F-150 could tow.)   One of the others doesn't have a hitch of any kind.   WTF?

[Dahobbs 17447]

8 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

It's not crazy for a family but certainly not advisable.  Drive through any $250Kish neighborhood and you'll see F-150's, Tahoes, BMW's, etc.  If you do the math on car payments, they could easily be spending $1200-$1500 per month combined.  Might be more than their mortgage in some cases.

Also, in relation to car payments, the average term is now like 6 years.  Twenty years ago, the max was five years but they've stretched the terms out because most everyone is a payment shopper.  This alone explains the rise in the cost of a new car.

What would you advise that family buy instead?  Used car prices are heavily inflated right now. And buying a used family car is going to carry with it additional maintenance costs, increased fuel costs, and loss of newer safety features. Y'all complaining about families spending ~100k total on vehicles must not have shopped for a car anytime recently. 

1 minute ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Some quick math on cars.

$25K loan over 5 years is the same payment as a $30K loan over 6 years.  People just care about the payments so they just raised the prices and adjusted the terms with their own financing wings.

Depending on the rate, the longer term deal may actually be better financially for a family. 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

 

[StassneyHorn 6540]

What moron buys a brand new car?

[Judge Roybeanbag 11810]

16 hours ago, Immaculate Vibes said:

The biggest problem we are about to face is with energy prices so high a recession is in the cards while the fed is still at 0% interest.  What do we/they do when things turn bad? There’s not really an economics thread so I’m not sure where to discuss this, but how is that addressed? There is a dearth of posters here that think much on this level. @washparkhorn @bernorange  

 

Do we pass a bill for essentially UBI and Fed monetizes the debt? We have no wiggle room.

And whose fault is that, Mr. Pass tax cuts for the rich, and let it trickledown.  

[fattyflattie 4636]

23 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

There are at least 3 guys in my immediate suburban neighborhood driving F-350 duallies.   I know for a fact that all three work downtown in white collar jobs and only one of them has anything that needs towing with their truck (a ski boat that a regular F-150 could tow.)   One of the others doesn't have a hitch of any kind.   WTF?

Tons of people do things on the weekend that requires bigger trucks, but yeah. RV, cowboy shit, racing, etc.  That’s before you factoring in how much longer they last.  Anecdotally I was specing a truck a few weeks ago, just getting a feel for when the time comes, and a loaded 350 dual wheel was 6k cheaper than the same trim 250 (both were KR)  That may explain a bit of it. 
 

ETA: I saw 9 year loans are available now. 9. Fucking. Years.    Also, lots of 100k mile trucks being sold in the 60’s which more can “afford”, than a new 80k ride.  Many of those were 60-ish new.  Just crazy right now. Bad time to actually need a new one. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by fattyflattie

[Biff Tannen 45497]

26 minutes ago, WBT said:

There's also the question of how quickly you churn through them.  Lots of vehicles will run forever these days.

Yep.  My 2004 4Runner is at 213k miles and runs like a gem.  I'm going to get another one in the next couple of years that I expect to last at least as long.  I've only ever owned 2 cars in my life and I'm about to hit 40.

[fuggled 576]

18 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

What would you advise that family buy instead?  Used car prices are heavily inflated right now. And buying a used family car is going to carry with it additional maintenance costs, increased fuel costs, and loss of newer safety features. Y'all complaining about families spending ~100k total on vehicles must not have shopped for a car anytime recently. 

Depending on the rate, the longer term deal may actually be better financially for a family. 

Well, I don't want to speak for @Aqua Buddha, but if someone doesn't have money to throw away I'd advise them to get a used Toyota or Honda minivan with 50-60K miles on it for ~$30K, like these:

• https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/42256274-1178-48e5-b5fd-c8159fc80d8d/?results_page_number=1&search_instance_id=98d3748d-38bd-41ed-bb2f-3bfd1418693a&search_zipcode=75083&vertical_position=1&web_page_type_to=shopping%2Fvehicle-details
• https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/215d0057-3f5d-4e30-9e21-3509205215ab/?results_page_number=1&search_instance_id=98d3748d-38bd-41ed-bb2f-3bfd1418693a&search_zipcode=75083&vertical_position=8&web_page_type_to=shopping%2Fvehicle-details

And I'd advise their second vehicle be a smaller sedan or compact in the ~$20K range for one spouse to commute with like these:

• https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/09a34b40-a6cf-490d-9bc4-5c5c13d5bdd4/?results_page_number=1&search_instance_id=80ce3956-715f-4aa0-92bb-25ae67c2d44f&search_zipcode=75083&vertical_position=16&web_page_type_to=shopping%2Fvehicle-details
• https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/2b89e16b-7246-4cd6-b986-eaadd47e7d27/?results_page_number=1&search_instance_id=80ce3956-715f-4aa0-92bb-25ae67c2d44f&search_zipcode=75083&vertical_position=19&web_page_type_to=shopping%2Fvehicle-details

Point being, anyone who is saying a family needs $100K in vehicles because "that's what the market is now" isn't really trying.  I can easily get to half that budget for reliable transportation.  Anything beyond that is just what I want (and it's fine if someone wants more than that).  

[Judge Roybeanbag 11810]

1 minute ago, fattyflattie said:

Tons of people do things on the weekend that requires bigger trucks, but yeah. RV, cowboy shit, racing, etc.  That’s before you factoring in how much longer they last.  Anecdotally I was specing a truck a few weeks ago, just getting a feel for when the time comes, and a loaded 350 dual wheel was 6k cheaper than the same trim 250 (both were KR)  That may explain a bit of it. 

What explains more is “small business” where people can expense the $80k truck, even though they don’t need it.   Nice smooth fucking on the rest of America.  

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Yep.  My 2004 4Runner is at 213k miles and runs like a gem.  I'm going to get another one in the next couple of years that I expect to last at least as long.  I've only ever owned 2 cars in my life and I'm about to hit 40.

Knock on wood, I'm on car number two of my adult life. Had a beater when I was 17-20 years old.

Approaching the same age as you.

[gmr548 16516]

There are at least 3 guys in my immediate suburban neighborhood driving F-350 duallies.   I know for a fact that all three work downtown in white collar jobs and only one of them has anything that needs towing with their truck (a ski boat that a regular F-150 could tow.)   One of the others doesn't have a hitch of any kind.   WTF?

Cowboy Cosplay, a time honored Texas tradition.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

A monthly bus pass is only ~$40.

[Bullneck 18987]

1 hour ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

Is this sarcasm?

 

No.  Why?

To go out and buy a vehicle that gets less than 30 mpg these days is stupid.  It might not be the car your ego wants but  . . . 

Think about the kids in $80,000 a year liberal arts colleges and ask if the world needs more Comparative Literature majors.  

It's the same level of thinking, isn't it?

Edited March 9, 2022 by Bullneck

[elfenix 34171]

1 hour ago, Dahobbs said:

The average new car price is sitting right around 47k (https://www.kbb.com/car-news/average-new-car-price-declines/). I don't think two cars over $100k total (versus each) is that crazy for a family, especially if the family has kids and needs a larger vehicle.  

0% for 84!

also, leases