"At the start of 2022, 64% of the U.S. population was living paycheck to paycheck"

[Captainant 27465]

14 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Good friend of mine confided in me a while back that he and his wife make $250k a year and they have no savings and about $60k in credit card debt.  And their mortgage is less than $2k/month.

Jeeze sounds like they're pretty shitty with their money lol. I'd bet they're members of the country club and keeping up with the Joneses and all that.

I've got some cousins that are in a similar situation - they pull down bookou bucks but between their Houston country club membership, their sons frat dues, their multiple annual resort trips, and extra Mercedes just laying around they're running pretty lean

[TurkeyChew 383]

6 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Yep.  Wife's best friend and her husband probably clear ~$200k per year.  We live in probably the best school district in CO and because husband went to private school, both kids are in private school.  They don't know how they are going to pay for college because they burned most of their savings for private school.  Oldest is a senior.  He wants to go to Kansas St, so clearly private school didn't really help there.

$200k across two people is middle-middle class. Especially in CO.

I think we need to adjust our definitions and thinking around what $100k, $200k, $500k, etc. household income means in 2022.

[Chewbacca 7730]

23 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

Last year I talked the wife into getting rid of both of our 10-yo cars and buying one new nice car.  

Her: "What happens if one of us has the car and the other one needs to go somewhere we can't walk?"

Me:  "Uber.  And I guaranfuckingtee that our yearly uber bill will be a small percentage of what we'd pay for insurance on that second car."

We're 11 months into this experiment, and so far that percentage = 0.0%.

 

I would do this if we could pull it off, but kids still need shuttling around and schedules diverge often enough that we can't at this time.  Well, that and the fact that I like driving fun cars.

[Chewbacca 7730]

8 minutes ago, TurkeyChew said:

$200k across two people is middle-middle class. Especially in CO.

I think we need to adjust our definitions and thinking around what $100k, $200k, $500k, etc. household income means in 2022.

They have lived in the same house for close to 20 years.  They are doing just fine on $200k in CO.  I'll bet their mortgage (including property taxes) is under $2k/month.  For someone who has to buy a house in today's market, I would agree.  But that doesn't apply here.  They just have a spending problem.  And the husband had an 'I don't want to work' problem for about 5 years that drained their retirement accounts.

[formermav43 4599]

7 minutes ago, TurkeyChew said:

$200k across two people is middle-middle class. Especially in CO.

I think we need to adjust our definitions and thinking around what $100k, $200k, $500k, etc. household income means in 2022.

Without looking up the exact numbers, $200k is going to be something like top 5% in household income. How exactly is that "middle-middle class"?

[Chewbacca 7730]

Just now, formermav43 said:

Without looking up the exact numbers, $200k is going to be something like top 5% in household income. How exactly is that "middle-middle class"?

Same issues Austin is having. - housing.

[formermav43 4599]

Just now, Chewbacca said:

Same issues Austin is having. - housing.

I get that to some extent. But I think surly's perception of "middle class" is generally skewed. If a top 5% income is "middle-middle class," that terminology is meaningless.

[Okie State 3788]

People who prefer their seats to come with zero farts in them.

Zero? If I worked on the line I'd definitely be ripping ass in any RS6 that rolled through.

[Chewbacca 7730]

Just now, formermav43 said:

I get that to some extent. But I think surly's perception of "middle class" is generally skewed. If a top 5% income is "middle-middle class," that terminology is meaningless.

Yeah, I agree there.  

[Chewbacca 7730]

1 minute ago, Okie State said:

22 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

People who prefer their seats to come with zero farts in them.

Zero? If I worked on the line I'd definitely be ripping ass in any RS6 that rolled through.

You're German?  I'm still irritated Audi quit doing Euro delivery a few years ago.  Can't think of a more fun car to drive on the Autobahn.  Driving into city centers, OTOH, maybe it's a good thing they don't do it anymore.  I'd for sure get some door dings and scratches in those tiny downtown parking lots.

[DaysOff 7853]

Good friend of mine confided in me a while back that he and his wife make $250k a year and they have no savings and about $60k in credit card debt.  And their mortgage is less than $2k/month.

That's good Katy livin.

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

45 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

Nothing, absolutely nothing in this world matters more than gas prices.  We deserve cheap gas and have the right to kill anyone who denies it to us. 

If oil companies have to make a little extra to make this happen, that's OK.  And if they have to make a lot extra, that's OK too because non-cheap gas is Biden's fault and traitorous.  Oil companies should have license to kill so they can provide cheap gas.  If one country has to destroy another so we can have cheap gas, that's OK, too.  And I don't know about you pussies but I like hot weather.  The hotter the better.  

Is there a point you’re trying to make?

[fattyflattie 4636]

1 hour ago, Bullneck said:

And I don't know about you pussies but I like hot weather.  The hotter the better.  

This is actually true, though. 

[Biff Tannen 45499]

1 hour ago, Chewbacca said:

And the husband had an 'I don't want to work' problem for about 5 years

Shit, I've had that problem for about the past 10 years, yet I continue on.

[TurkeyChew 383]

1 hour ago, formermav43 said:

I get that to some extent. But I think surly's perception of "middle class" is generally skewed. If a top 5% income is "middle-middle class," that terminology is meaningless.

You are right— when I think of middle class (aka Surly Middle class) it’s not the $58k median income middle class or whatever the data scientists present. I’m thinking more practically, I guess. Middle class is poor and poor is poverty and poverty is obscene poverty, etc.

[elfenix 34171]

4 hours ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

I think the number of people actually being paid minimum wage is pretty low. Even so, why the hell haven't Dems pushed through a standalone minimum wage increase? Seems like it would be the easiest thing to do and a big win on the board... and *crickets*

need 10 republicans to do it and there aren't 10 republicans to do it.  or you need to kill the filibuster to do it.  or you need to tell the senate parliamentarian that s/he's wrong in saying that this can't be part of reconciliation (which you only get a couple shots at each fiscal year which is why you typically get hugenormous bills that cover everything because the only way to get them through the senate is reconciliation).  and you can't do those last two because you don't have all 50 democrats ready to do that.

[fattyflattie 4636]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

they pull down bookou bucks

...

1 hour ago, Chewbacca said:

I would do this if we could pull it off, but kids still need shuttling around and schedules diverge often enough that we can't at this time.

Checks the toyota and new car thread, calls bullshit.

1 hour ago, Chewbacca said:

Well, that and the fact that I like driving fun cars.

See.

1 hour ago, formermav43 said:

I get that to some extent. But I think surly's perception of "middle class" is generally skewed. If a top 5% income is "middle-middle class," that terminology is meaningless.

The perception probably is.  I don't know what the statistics say, but I know I didn't feel like I had purely hit "middle class" until my salary no longer had a 2 in it.  I don't know what you call that, but by the time you get thru with retirement accounts, 529's, little extra on the mortgage, etc, it leaves you less liquid than I'd have thought.  It's purely a mental hang up, but I still cant bring myself to participate in the watch thread, for example.  I remember specifically a thread on here (maybe teachers salaries?) being just outstandingly eye opening to me. 

[Biff Tannen 45499]

1 minute ago, elfenix said:

need 10 republicans to do it and there aren't 10 republicans to do it.  or you need to kill the filibuster to do it.  or you need to tell the senate parliamentarian that s/he's wrong in saying that this can't be part of reconciliation (which you only get a couple shots at each fiscal year which is why you typically get hugenormous bills that cover everything because the only way to get them through the senate is reconciliation).  and you can't do those last two because you don't have all 50 democrats ready to do that.

but shit is totally not broken.  no sirree bob.

[elfenix 34171]

5 minutes ago, TurkeyChew said:

You are right— when I think of middle class (aka Surly Middle class) it’s not the $58k median income middle class or whatever the data scientists present. I’m thinking more practically, I guess. Middle class is poor and poor is poverty and poverty is obscene poverty, etc.

for one very rich man there must be at least 500 poor.  anything outside the top 10% of income is poors. 

[Chewbacca 7730]

6 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Shit, I've had that problem for about the past 10 years, yet I continue on.

Yeah, but I bet you actually kept working.  You didn't have a 100% commission 'job' where you didn't bring in a paycheck.

[Chewbacca 7730]

10 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

...

Checks the toyota and new car thread, calls bullshit.

See.

We won't do it while we live in Denver, but once we move full time to the mountains, I'll likely sell the fun car.  Too many dirt roads to have anything fun up there.  Might pick up an old Landcruiser or Bronco to drive around, though.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Chewbacca

[F250 28691]

Have we moved past cheap car talk and started with the salary humble brag now?

 

lulz Never change Surly.

 

[Chewbacca 7730]

1 minute ago, F250 said:

Have we moved past cheap car talk and started with the salary humble brag now?

 

lulz Never change Surly.

 

Some of us spend money on cars, some of us spend money on sugar babies.  To each his own...

[F250 28691]

3 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Some of us spend money on cars, some of us spend money on sugar babies.  To each his own...

[formermav43 4599]

58 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

The perception probably is.  I don't know what the statistics say, but I know I didn't feel like I had purely hit "middle class" until my salary no longer had a 2 in it.  I don't know what you call that, but by the time you get thru with retirement accounts, 529's, little extra on the mortgage, etc, it leaves you less liquid than I'd have thought.  It's purely a mental hang up, but I still cant bring myself to participate in the watch thread, for example.  I remember specifically a thread on here (maybe teachers salaries?) being just outstandingly eye opening to me. 

The watch thread is a good subjective example, I'd say. There are legitimate problems that we all know about with stagnant wages, skyrocketing housing costs, student loan debt, etc. I don't want to diminish those or pretend to have a solution to them either.

But it's worth noting that in the postwar period that we measure everything against, the average new home was not even a thousand square feet and your family vacation was probably a road trip to a national park or the like (with maybe 6 people or more crammed in a sedan). That was the middle class lifestyle. It was not buying 5 figure watches.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

Very few people identify as wealthy or rich because when they look around them, and everyone is at the same level as them. Even if they earn 200k+.

[Bookman 4611]

No fucking way I'm buying a used car any more. Call me a moron. I don't really give a shit.

[Beantown Express 2.0 6555]

6 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Very few people identify as wealthy or rich because when they look around them, and everyone is at the same level as them. Even if they earn 200k+.

This is the truth.  I look around and no matter how much I make it seems like everybody out there has started their own company and sold it for 5 million, 10 million, 100 million or whatever and those are the folks I look at as rich.

[Bama Chick 28596]

Whew. I’m never reminded more that this board skews -

-late middle aged
-male
-white

Than when the inevitable “What is middle class?” question pops up.

Y’all are way skewed in your understanding of how most people live.

[workswithseed 2037]

7 hours ago, F250 said:

To answer your question, no the off grid stuff doesn't seem like a big market unless you live near a mountain.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

7 hours ago, Bama Chick said:

Whew. I’m never reminded more that this board skews -

-late middle aged
-male
-white

Than when the inevitable “What is middle class?” question pops up.

Y’all are way skewed in your understanding of how most people live.

Yep. Certain demographics can have weird definitions of middle class. To me it’s somewhat close to the median family income of 70k. I’m even willing to stretch it out say 50-100k. And if someone wants to argue that their city and having children at home change the definition, fine.

 

[Beantown Express 2.0 6555]

8 hours ago, Bama Chick said:

Whew. I’m never reminded more that this board skews -

-late middle aged
-male
-white

Than when the inevitable “What is middle class?” question pops up.

Y’all are way skewed in your understanding of how most people live.

Um, my butler strongly disagrees with you.

[Brew 3047]

17 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

Good friend of mine confided in me a while back that he and his wife make $250k a year and they have no savings and about $60k in credit card debt.  And their mortgage is less than $2k/month.

There are way more of these out there than you would ever imagine although that level of income with that issue is outside the norm. I hate calling someone that owes money with their tax filings, because a lot of times they don’t have it.  It amazes me the professionals every year that do payment plans with the IRS and we live in a low cost area of the country. Then I see their tuition information at the private school and parents are paying it, then I really wonder where their money goes. 3 vacations a year, LV purses, new cars, non school sports is a huge expense locally, student loans for one not working, country club dues to be able to eat with your buddies, duck hunting leases, alimony and child support for 2 prior marriages, etc and it all disappears quickly.

On the car topic, you can find decent vehicles under $30k all day every day. I bought my oldest a mid level Escape for $25k. I wouldn’t drive it every day, but it’s functional transportation. I put 25k+ a year on a vehicle and I’m going to drive what I like. They get traded every 2 years and to this point I’ve come out pretty well on trade in values. I do okay, so I’m going to drive what I want while I’m here.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Brew

[TwiceHorn 31283]

16 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

...

Checks the toyota and new car thread, calls bullshit.

See.

The perception probably is.  I don't know what the statistics say, but I know I didn't feel like I had purely hit "middle class" until my salary no longer had a 2 in it.  I don't know what you call that, but by the time you get thru with retirement accounts, 529's, little extra on the mortgage, etc, it leaves you less liquid than I'd have thought.  It's purely a mental hang up, but I still cant bring myself to participate in the watch thread, for example.  I remember specifically a thread on here (maybe teachers salaries?) being just outstandingly eye opening to me. 

Well, you are rather notorious for lacking empathy for and understanding of the lower classes.

[Brew 3047]

16 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

We won't do it while we live in Denver, but once we move full time to the mountains, I'll likely sell the fun car.  Too many dirt roads to have anything fun up there.  Might pick up an old Landcruiser or Bronco to drive around, though.

At the rate they are going, they’ll be more expensive than the fun car by then.

[Brew 3047]

9 hours ago, Bama Chick said:

Whew. I’m never reminded more that this board skews -

-late middle aged
-male
-white

Than when the inevitable “What is middle class?” question pops up.

Y’all are way skewed in your understanding of how most people live.

What qualifies as late middle aged? I think I might be offended, but I need to make sure what age bracket I fit in first. 

There is no wholesale definition for middle class any more. It is too location specific. $150k buys you a really nice life  where I live. There are plenty of people in that range with 1-3 kids in private school, a 2800+ sq ft house, and plenty of other toys. It probably has you sharing a place with roommates in other locations.

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

1 hour ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

Um, my butler strongly disagrees with you.

 

[Sbbruin 21737]

On 3/9/2022 at 12:30 AM, Voldemort86 said:

I disagree with Biden on this, but he’s trying to get companies to go back to the office now. I think it should be a choice left up to the workers if possible. Commuting sucks.

As someone whose business in commercial office buildings, I agree.  Get your ass back to the office.

[Dahobbs 17447]

9 hours ago, Bama Chick said:

Whew. I’m never reminded more that this board skews -

-late middle aged
-male
-white

Than when the inevitable “What is middle class?” question pops up.

Y’all are way skewed in your understanding of how most people live.

 

2 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Yep. Certain demographics can have weird definitions of middle class. To me it’s somewhat close to the median family income of 70k. I’m even willing to stretch it out say 50-100k. And if someone wants to argue that their city and having children at home change the definition, fine.

 

See below for median income broken up into various categories. Household median is going to varies based on family status quite a bit. 

https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/income-poverty/cps-hinc/hinc-04.html

• All - $67,521
• Family - $86,372
• Married Couple Family - $101,517
• Female No Spouse - $49,214
• Male No Spouse - $67,304

Point here is that being in a family with kids does in fact change the median income and should also change what we consider to be middle class. The national median is a poor metric to use for that since it includes younger, single person households. 

[Chewbacca 7730]

3 hours ago, Brew said:

There are way more of these out there than you would ever imagine although that level of income with that issue is outside the norm. I hate calling someone that owes money with their tax filings, because a lot of times they don’t have it.  It amazes me the professionals every year that do payment plans with the IRS and we live in a low cost area of the country. Then I see their tuition information at the private school and parents are paying it, then I really wonder where their money goes. 3 vacations a year, LV purses, new cars, non school sports is a huge expense locally, student loans for one not working, country club dues to be able to eat with your buddies, duck hunting leases, alimony and child support for 2 prior marriages, etc and it all disappears quickly.

On the car topic, you can find decent vehicles under $30k all day every day. I bought my oldest a mid level Escape for $25k. I wouldn’t drive it every day, but it’s functional transportation. I put 25k+ a year on a vehicle and I’m going to drive what I like. They get traded every 2 years and to this point I’ve come out pretty well on trade in values. I do okay, so I’m going to drive what I want while I’m here.

Yeah, same guy the last time I saw them mentioned that his wife wants a LV purse.  They just suck at money.

[wildcat09 29258]

20 hours ago, TurkeyChew said:

You are right— when I think of middle class (aka Surly Middle class) it’s not the $58k median income middle class or whatever the data scientists present. I’m thinking more practically, I guess. Middle class is poor and poor is poverty and poverty is obscene poverty, etc.

Lol, I love when you do shit like this. In what world is it more practical to use your gut feeling for what constitutes middle class, which appears to be based on what you think your social peers make, than some objective measure based on data from all Americans? You're doing the whole "well I'm just a good ol' country boy" act but the second half of that for this issue is apparently "but everyone I know pulls in over a half mil a year and I don't think that's THAT much." 

[TurkeyChew 383]

56 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Lol, I love when you do shit like this. In what world is it more practical to use your gut feeling for what constitutes middle class, which appears to be based on what you think your social peers make, than some objective measure based on data from all Americans? You're doing the whole "well I'm just a good ol' country boy" act but the second half of that for this issue is apparently "but everyone I know pulls in over a half mil a year and I don't think that's THAT much." 

Do you know what practical means? 

Of course basing definitions that align to your day-to-day and exist within your sphere of influence is more practical and useful than a technical data point that doesn't realistically impact you. That practicality is what I was referencing. 

[Grade of D as in David 13253]

21 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

Yeah, but I bet you actually kept working.  You didn't have a 100% commission 'job' where you didn't bring in a paycheck.

He was selling scentsy?

[fattyflattie 4636]

5 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, you are rather notorious for lacking empathy for and understanding of the lower classes.

That’s not entirely true. I have issues with the system we choose that punishes some, while rewarding others. That covers all classes and economic situations. The fact that’s been twisted on here is partially my inability to express my thoughts in a clear manner, and bullshit posts from 2-3 regulars that like to chase my tail when I post.  

[elfenix 34171]

5 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

Point here is that being in a family with kids does in fact change the median income and should also change what we consider to be middle class. The national median is a poor metric to use for that since it includes younger, single person households. 

let's disregard the poorest and those with high per person living expenses and then decide!

Edited March 11, 2022 by elfenix

[Celery Man 20886]

On 3/10/2022 at 12:55 PM, F250 said:

I've known a couple of these people. Knew a guy that would tow a little trailer full of band equipment with his beat up El Camino. The equipment was definitely worth more than his ride.

 

every band gets their trailer stolen at some point, and every band knows that you always back the trailer door against a wall when you're parking for the night. When I was touring, before upgrading to more reliable vehicles we had a late '90s dodge ram 15 passenger van that had previously belonged to Huntsville prison. We bought it for $300, had to pour oil in every couple of days, it not only didn't have AC but you had to keep the heat running, and it took us from Austin to Florida to Niagara Falls to Chicago and back down through the corn states. You could roll down the windows by simply pulling them down with your hand, which was pretty obvious because they were covered in fingerprints and held up up with needle nosed pliers jammed into the sill. So you always had to take your backpack in even if you were just going to take a leak in a gas station. Any one of our backpacks was worth at least the cost of the entire van, what with laptops, ipads, drugs and shit. Forget about 80% of the things in the trailer.

So, if you're desperate and you see a shitty van full of scroungy dudes, just pull down the window and steal their backpacks.

 

 

People bring up the different expectations of middle class America in post war years - I think there's a fine point to be made there about the top 5% "middle class" barely making ends meet keeping up with the joneses. For a lot of people I grew up with - they would... absolutely fucking love to be able to own a small house and make a simple life and all of the 1950s middle America shit, and it's not an option without doing radical shit like my old friends who bought an airstream and are weird hippy nomads.

[Dahobbs 17447]

16 minutes ago, elfenix said:

let's disregard the poorest and those with high per person living expenses and then decide!

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying we have to compare like to like. Middle class income for a single person without kids is going to be less than middle class income for a family with kids, not only from a statistical perspective (as the stats show) but from a practical one too. The family will need more for an equivalent lifestyle. 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Dahobbs

[Blotto 23434]

14 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying we have to compare like to like. Middle class income for a single person without kids is going to be less than middle class income for a family with kids, not only from a statistical perspective (as the stats show) but from a practical one too. The family will need more for an equivalent lifestyle. 

While I know its not your point at all, it brings up a huge issue I have, which is people with not a lot of money breeding like rabbits. Living paycheck to paycheck while squirting out rugrats like its their full time job. 

[Aqua Buddha 14521]

I've said this before but in terms of "middle class," strip away the money and dollar amounts and look at the trappings and how they've changed over the years.  America is built on a "middle class ethos" to the point where 80% of us or something think we're "middle class" even though that's statistically impossible.

When I was younger, middle class meant you likely owned your house in a reasonably good school district, your spouse might have worked, two cars, had some savings, and took a vacation in the summer.  Now, what I've described is upper class.  Statistically, middle class now means you're a renter in a bad or average school district, both people work and sometimes multiple jobs, no savings and significant debt relative to the household income.

We're promised as Americans that if we work hard and do the right things, we'll achieve the "middle class dream" but millions of people did that only to realize being middle class now isn't what they thought.  When you understand that, you start to understand the angst in America right now.

[Foosters 17734]

Just now, Aqua Buddha said:

When I was younger, middle class meant you likely owned your house in a reasonably good school district, your spouse might have worked, two cars, had some savings, and took a vacation in the summer.  Now, what I've described is upper class.  Statistically, middle class now means you're a renter in a bad or average school district, both people work and sometimes multiple jobs, no savings and significant debt relative to the household income.

Exactly. This is why you see people argue that a $200k income is middle class. Middle class meant comfort from financial hardship or emergency. Now it means you might not be homeless depending on where you live.