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Fuck cops and their enablers, reason elentybillion


crash_davis

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7 hours ago, RPM said:

So does taxpayers having to foot the bill for bad cops.

The amount of things that taxpayers foot the bill for that some people aren’t a fan of is legion. 

I’m saying in our legal system it can’t happen that way. You can’t make a retirement fund financially responsible for acts of employees. Only the employer. Posting that you want it to be that way isn’t realistic. 

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2 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

The amount of things that taxpayers foot the bill for that some people aren’t a fan of is legion. 

There's fans of taxpayers funding police civil suits? (Besides the Police of course)

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13 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

The amount of things that taxpayers foot the bill for that some people aren’t a fan of is legion. 

I’m saying in our legal system it can’t happen that way. You can’t make a retirement fund financially responsible for acts of employees. Only the employer. Posting that you want it to be that way isn’t realistic. 

Why can’t you do that? 

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7 hours ago, slorch said:

Terminate the employment of the executive/ leadership level employees who have inexcusable "whoopsies" happen under their watch.  This shit isn't just rogue officers and outliers.

Change the culture from the top down.  Stop blaming/ excusing the pawns.

It’s not actually enough in many cases. You have to work with both. Plenty of reform minded police commissioners have written about the immense challenges of changing the culture of the department they were ostensibly in charge of. 

Here’s a great interview on this subject. Michael Harrison was the chief of police in New Orleans for 4 years before he was named the chief of police in Baltimore, one of the most violent cities in the country. He has helped lead both departments through consent decrees, the federal government’s main tool for forcing through reforms on local law enforcement (something that was ended under the Trump administration) 

In 26m he covers a wide ranging number of issues, touching on the impact of COVID on rising violent crime, the impact of not being hamstrung somewhat regarding law enforcement either because of the closure of courts or the shift from going after lower level crime. He references the rise in violent crime being in part about perpetrators having less fear regarding consequence. 

He talks about moving the policing model from being a warrior to a guardian. He advocates for the need of other specialties to take on the task of dealing with the mentally ill, addicts, and the homeless (although what we also know is that’s an extremely underserved population), thereby freeing the police force to perform core competencies. He discusses releasing camera footage, especially when police have used their gun.

He talks about a multi service model for trying to address potential violent offenders before they become violent. There’s a very salient discussion regarding changing th training the officers are going through, and now different police departments are going to have different policies regarding how they deal with situations. What we don’t know from this interview is how the Baltimore police department has been handling disciplinary issues, particularly when a complaint is brought forth from the community. 

There’s also a brief discussion about the murder of two “violence interrupters” which is the inherent danger of emphasizing deescalation. 

For people looking to expand their view beyond “fuck the police” it’s a good place to start. To me there has to be some acknowledgement of the challenges of being a police officer. It doesn’t mean they get carte blanc for abusive behavior, but it’s not exactly a normal job, either. No where in this thread have I defended the person portrayed in the original post. My consistent theme is that bashing all police any time a case of abuse comes up is unhelpful and actually destructive for bringing about meaningful reform.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?514033-1/baltimore-police-commissioner-police-reform-crime-reduction

 

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9 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

It’s not actually enough in many cases. You have to work with both.

 

We are in agreement.   I just get sick of the excuses and lack of accountability when many of these instances happen, while the bosses never get touched.  I'm sick of hearing how it was a one-off, when many of these acts require multiple levels of negligence if not cooperation by the parties charged with actually driving checks and balances within the system.  No successful organization works that way... unless their goals are different from what is actually stated.

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45 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Why can’t you do that? 

Because the employee retirement system can’t be held responsible. 

I don’t know what your profession is, but let’s say you’re a teacher. A colleague is caught buttfucking a teenager non consensually. The damages are horrific and taken out of your retirement fund. How is that going to go over? 

You can’t make a special exception that it’s only used for police officers. Or if you try, it will immediately be challenged. Successfully. Either it will be expanded to include all other professions or it will be eliminated.

An employer is different, because they are legally accountable for the actions of their employees, even if by doing so it affects other people who weren’t involved. But a retirement fund is not legally responsible for the people it’s designed to provide for. And you as a peer group are not legally liable for the actions of your peers. It just opens up a huge can of worms if that were to be the case. 

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1 minute ago, slorch said:

We are in agreement.   I just get sick of the excuses and lack of accountability when many of these instances happen, while the bosses never get touched.  I'm sick of hearing how it was a one-off, when many of these acts require multiple levels of negligence if not cooperation by the parties charged with actually driving checks and balances within the system.  No successful organization works that way... unless their goals are different from what is actually stated.

Yeah, a lot of people are sick of it. That is absolutely understandable. It’s true for any serial abuser, in any profession. Someone somewhere is enabling their behavior, or it would have been stopped long ago. Sometimes even encouraging it. People know this, and as far as this thread is concerned, when it comes to law enforcement, they’re extremely angry. 

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Just now, hobbes2702 said:

@SL Xpress what if they were required to pay into some sort of malpractice insurance? Could that be a workaround to achieve the same goal? We need a way to prevent tax payers being on the hook for police abuse.

Practically speaking you’d probably need some kind of umbrella policy where all government employees were required to pay in. On some level taxpayers would still be on the hook for it. 

Here’s what I’ll say from a bigger picture point of view. I’m a small government guy. My view is that when the government gets involved they’re not able to handle issues with nuance, and it’s very difficult to change directions once a program has been established. It just gets bigger and finds new ways to justify itself. And there are always unintended consequences.

However, there are some things the government has to take care of, and there are huge dangers to society the more private firms take over. Law enforcement is absolutely one of them.

If you want taxpayers to be relieved from footing the bill on abusive police, the best solution is to not make them responsible for their pay any more. Have private entities become the main law enforcement body, either regulated or unregulated. You could have them be a private utility, or facilitate the creation of competing law enforcement bodies. Figure out a payment method, just like with electricity or water. then when there are legal liabilities the private firm is responsible for the bill. Now, it still gets paid by the public in one way or another, but it’s not directly paid. 

Of course that’s a terrible idea. Introducing any kind of profit motive into the justice system will have wide ranging negative effects. It already does with private prisons, which is such a dumb fucking idea it boggles my mind we continue to use them.

At the end of the day law enforcement is a basic essential to having a functioning society. As such we have to bear the cost collectively. Unless we want to create laws which severely limit the kind of damages victims can be awarded in court (which we’ve absolutely done in all kinds of ways) then there’s not a good alternative for one of those costs we bear to be paying damages when someone on the police force does something bad that’s proven in civil court. But I do get the frustration. 

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1 hour ago, RPM said:

There's fans of taxpayers funding police civil suits? (Besides the Police of course)

Well, I am. Because there isn’t a reasonable alternative that’s better. The civil suits are part of the price of fielding a police force. I’m not happy about having to do it, but it’s better than having a private firm be the police force. 

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Yeah, a lot of people are sick of it. That is absolutely understandable. It’s true for any serial abuser, in any profession. Someone somewhere is enabling their behavior, or it would have been stopped long ago. Sometimes even encouraging it. People know this, and as far as this thread is concerned, when it comes to law enforcement, they’re extremely angry. 

Couple that with the culture that refuses to reform, and instead blames the public (abuser victim-blaming) and it’s impossible not to hate them.
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18 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


Couple that with the culture that refuses to reform, and instead blames the public (abuser victim-blaming) and it’s impossible not to hate them.

Check out the interview I posted above with Michael Harrison, the chief of police for Baltimore. I have no idea how effective he’s being, but he states things in a way I think many of the cop haters on this thread wish they heard more of when police commissioners speak. 
 

It’s about 26m long:

https://www.c-span.org/video/?514033-1/baltimore-police-commissioner-police-reform-crime-reduction

 

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3 minutes ago, Capt. Squints said:

I'm sure I'll get slammed for this, but it sounds like the kid is a prick. He was agitating for a confrontation, and the asshole cop obliged him. Fuck them both.

At the very least he was naive about what would happen, but I wouldn’t rule out his desire to acquire views via social media, either.

Doesn’t actually matter, though. The cop didn’t handle himself well at all, which - “Fuck them both” - you’re acknowledging. 

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On 3/11/2022 at 12:23 PM, SL Xpress said:

Law enforcement is inherently going to attract people who are more inclined to abuse power. 

They can rationalize it by feeling like they put their lives on the line for everyone else and are entitled to a higher level of respect simply for wearing the uniform. 

I don’t know that the current strategy of society demonizing police officers is a good solution, either, however. Not every cop is a bad cop. Most of them are just trying to do their jobs. Some of them feel like de-escalation shows weakness, or puts police officers’ lives at risk. 

I do know it makes little sense to me to do anything that risks being seen as an escalation when involved with law enforcement. My strategy has always been to be as non threatening and excessively polite as possible. I’d recommend it for anyone. 

I also have a great deal of respect for people who choose law enforcement for a career. It always shocks me to a certain degree when that sentiment isn’t shared, especially when it’s violently not shared, but I’ve seen it enough to know it’s a common point of view these days. I hope somehow we figure out a way to turn that around in the future, whatever that may take. It’s not healthy for a functioning society to have an automatic hate for people responsible for maintaining order. It’s not healthy to have an automatic love regardless of what they do, either, so it goes both ways. 

That's a fair post.  But in it, you offer several instances where police culture has gone horribly wrong.

And, the bolded are a couple of thoughts that more or less require reconciliation.

I believe a fair number of people go into law enforcement "wanting to help," while others look forward to busting some heads.  And some others are probably former military that aren't real committal either way, but are looking for a job and bring a certain mindset to it.  I couldn't say which type predominates, at the outset.  But I am reasonably sure that police culture, as well as the cynicism brought on by interacting with the dregs of society, combine to make all types worse than they were at the outset.

Many aspects of police culture are the result of interacting with the dregs.  Others, though, are pretty "organic."

I really feel like disarming most police (not all), is going to go the furthest to solving the problem.  Also, narrowing their scope of responsibility.  

While I am, generally, mr. deterrence is overrated (or complete bullshit), I do believe police presence is probably the number one deterrent to crime.  And I don't think that presence requires an armed force.

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6 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Or we could hold police accountable who break the law. Problem solved. 
 

That would surely help, but it is post hoc and relies, again, on deterrence of bad behavior by "example," and I think the efficacy of that is limited.  Much in the way that tort litigation is a way of regulating safety of products and behaviors, but is not the end-all solution.

Something needs to be done at the "front end" to limit the impulse to "shoot" or "bust heads.  And, I think disarming the vast majority of police goes a long way to doing that.  Like Putin with his nukes, a bunch of cops with guns feel more impunity to do unto others.

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9 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

That's a fair post.  But in it, you offer several instances where police culture has gone horribly wrong.

And, the bolded are a couple of thoughts that more or less require reconciliation.

I believe a fair number of people go into law enforcement "wanting to help," while others look forward to busting some heads.  And some others are probably former military that aren't real committal either way, but are looking for a job and bring a certain mindset to it.  I couldn't say which type predominates, at the outset.  But I am reasonably sure that police culture, as well as the cynicism brought on by interacting with the dregs of society, combine to make all types worse than they were at the outset.

Many aspects of police culture are the result of interacting with the dregs.  Others, though, are pretty "organic."

I really feel like disarming most police (not all), is going to go the furthest to solving the problem.  Also, narrowing their scope of responsibility.  

While I am, generally, mr. deterrence is overrated (or complete bullshit), I do believe police presence is probably the number one deterrent to crime.  And I don't think that presence requires an armed force.

You may be right, but I wouldn’t be a cop if I was told I couldn’t carry a gun, and I personally wouldn’t feel right in asking someone else to, either. If we were a different kind of society that didn’t have such a gun culture, that would be different. 

That said, I like the way you think. 

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4 hours ago, SL Xpress said:

Well, I am. Because there isn’t a reasonable alternative that’s better.

Apologies to those born after 2001, but there is an alternative way to police the masses without treating them like Jews circa 1939 Germany.

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11 minutes ago, RPM said:

Apologies to those born after 2001, but there is an alternative way to police the masses without treating them like Jews circa 1939 Germany.

If your view is that the US police force treats American citizens like Jews in 1939 Germany then who is Himmler? Because that person deserves a lot more blame than the cops on the streets every day. It doesn't absolve anyone, but blaming every single person in the police force for what you view as systemic repression is pointing the finger in the wrong direction. 

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2 hours ago, SL Xpress said:

You may be right, but I wouldn’t be a cop if I was told I couldn’t carry a gun, and I personally wouldn’t feel right in asking someone else to, either. If we were a different kind of society that didn’t have such a gun culture, that would be different. 

That said, I like the way you think. 

That's an interesting point.  While I think I can empathize with the thought that a gun is necessary to defend oneself, I wonder, really, how necessary it is.  I don't think the evidence bears out that police actually interdict a whole lot of crime in progress and being unarmed may prevent police from inserting themselves into dangerous situations, and certainly from creating dangerous situations.  And my proposal would include highly trained armed "rapid response units" for those occasions where crime needs to be or can be interdicted or there is a threat to public safety posed by an armed perp.

According to one study, only 25% of officer ever fire their weapon on duty.  https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/08/a-closer-look-at-police-officers-who-have-fired-their-weapon-on-duty/  And there are some interesting commonalities among those who do.

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9 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

"And there are some interesting commonalities among those who do."

Here is what I'm talking about above, though (in ridiculously lengthy posts that are full of bullshit, so there is that). If you want a police force that in some ways is discouraged from discharging their gun, provide screening that leads to the hiring of police officers that are less likely to do so. 

What I'd also like to see is some kind of survey done for officers who are killed or wounded in the line of duty. Were they more aggressive and more likely to discharge their weapon? Or less likely? Obviously the survey would have to be done ahead of time, then consulted after the fact. 

As far as an unarmed police force, I guess we'd need to see a department be the guinea pig, and watch how that unfolds. I think that would be a very messy experiment on all kinds of levels. But you'd have to see what the data says. Without data it feels like we'd be trading cops' lives for civilians at some kind of unknown rate. That's rough.

In any case, thanks for the link to the survey results. That was an interesting read. And especially thank you for the discussion. I appreciate it very much.

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24 minutes ago, RPM said:

Every Republican running for office.

Again, that's a demonization that's not helpful. It's just as bad as the Republicans who blame every ill they perceive leading to the doom of the country at the Democrats' feet. Including Putin invading Ukraine. Are there any specific Republicans who are chiefly to blame? Also, you realize while we're an extremely partisan country these days, there are plenty of times when the Democrats have held power and the dynamics haven't changed much. 

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Just now, RPM said:

Tell that to people on a magenta scale with a gun pointed at them.

Why? I'm posting on a message board trying to have a conversation about it. Should I only tell people of color?

There is no doubt that the massive incarceration begun in the 1980s has disproportionately affected African Americans. It's also true the incarceration rate between 2013 and 2019 dropped by 40%, half of that period under a predominately Republican aegis. This is a more complicated issue than simply Republican versus Democrat. I'd absolutely agree that the increase in incarcerations has been driven by the Republican agenda, but I'd also argue there has been plenty of Democratic complicity.

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  • 2 weeks later...

holy shit. due to the benny hill comedy of the cop, i'd normally laugh at this shit but the victim died. WARNING: video is nsfl. 

for those who don't watch the video, her fat obese ass fast wobbles to the passenger side of the victim's car. victim opens the door as if to run or surrender. obese cop slips and accidently shoots the victim in the chest. what the fuck? she is charged for manslaughter.

how the fuck is this woman a cop? i imagine she would fail every physical fitness test asked of her, well every test which doesn't require eating.

she was fired from 2 different PDs for being a shitty cop, a bit redundant i know. it's like the all the PDs recycle the same shitty cops from place to place.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/south-carolina-police-officer-custody-fatal-shooting-82776686

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/carolina-officer-charged-killing-released-bond-82805513

Quote

COLUMBIA, S.C. -- A police officer in South Carolina arrested this week after killing a man in an on-duty shooting was fired from a state police unit for nine separate policy violations, including the failure to notify superiors in a timely fashion after shooting her service weapon at two dogs while she was out jogging, court records show.

Court records show Dollard was fired from the State Transport Police in 2014 and then sued the Department of Public Safety for discrimination. A federal judge threw out the suit, siding with agency lawyers who said in court documents that Dollard had a “well-documented run of extraordinarily poor decision-making."

 

The State Transportation Police fired her in 2014 after eight years, saying in the court papers her job performance started to rapidly slip.

After internal investigators confirmed she punched a woman’s broken down car when she struggled to follow instructions to get it off the interstate and violated several agency policies when pulling over a truck including not reporting to dispatchers, the agency reviewed all video from Dollard’s recent shifts.

That examination found nine ways Dollard violated the department’s rules in less than five months, according to court records.

The worst violation was waiting six hours to report to her supervisor she fired her police gun at two dogs while jogging, the agency said.

Dollard also failed to call in traffic stops numerous times to dispatchers, did not wear her body armor and improperly charged a driver with running a stop sign when they actually committed the more serious violation of passing a stopped school bus, according to documents.

 

also, why did the victim have to go off on an 8 mile high speed car chase just because he rolled through a stop sign? just fucking pull over and get the ticket. now he's dead because the cop was a shittastically shitty cop.

 

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27 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

holy shit. due to the benny hill comedy of the cop, i'd normally laugh at this shit but the victim died. WARNING: video is nsfl. 

for those who don't watch the video, her fat obese ass fast wobbles to the passenger side of the victim's car. victim opens the door as if to run or surrender. obese cop slips and accidently shoots the victim in the chest. what the fuck? she is charged for manslaughter.

how the fuck is this woman a cop? i imagine she would fail every physical fitness test asked of her, well every test which doesn't require eating.

she was fired from 2 different PDs for being a shitty cop, a bit redundant i know. it's like the all the PDs recycle the same shitty cops from place to place.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/south-carolina-police-officer-custody-fatal-shooting-82776686

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/carolina-officer-charged-killing-released-bond-82805513

 

also, why did the victim have to go off on an 8 mile high speed car chase just because he rolled through a stop sign? just fucking pull over and get the ticket. now he's dead because the cop was a shittastically shitty cop.

 

Nothing about that video looks accidental. She slips but the gun doesn’t get fired until we’ll after that.

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7 hours ago, crash_davis said:

holy shit. due to the benny hill comedy of the cop, i'd normally laugh at this shit but the victim died. WARNING: video is nsfl. 

for those who don't watch the video, her fat obese ass fast wobbles to the passenger side of the victim's car. victim opens the door as if to run or surrender. obese cop slips and accidently shoots the victim in the chest. what the fuck? she is charged for manslaughter.

how the fuck is this woman a cop? i imagine she would fail every physical fitness test asked of her, well every test which doesn't require eating.

she was fired from 2 different PDs for being a shitty cop, a bit redundant i know. it's like the all the PDs recycle the same shitty cops from place to place.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/south-carolina-police-officer-custody-fatal-shooting-82776686

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/carolina-officer-charged-killing-released-bond-82805513

 

also, why did the victim have to go off on an 8 mile high speed car chase just because he rolled through a stop sign? just fucking pull over and get the ticket. now he's dead because the cop was a shittastically shitty cop.

 

 

that's a murder 

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On 3/12/2022 at 5:44 PM, SL Xpress said:

Check out the interview I posted above with Michael Harrison, the chief of police for Baltimore. I have no idea how effective he’s being, but he states things in a way I think many of the cop haters on this thread wish they heard more of when police commissioners speak. 
 

It’s about 26m long:

https://www.c-span.org/video/?514033-1/baltimore-police-commissioner-police-reform-crime-reduction

 

Harrison has been good at realizing more people will recognize the challenges of being a police officer, when police officers first humbly admit they have made their jobs more challenging through their attitudes and misbehaviors.

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  • 8 months later...
  • 4 weeks later...

here's a cop who should be kicked up in a mental ward on a heavy dose of lithium. my god the combination of victim complex, low IQ, and rage issues should have prevented this guy from ever becoming a cop in the first place, but then again those attributes seem to be the exact criteria that PD's are looking for when they hire cops these days.

watch as our hero moves himself 15+ feet to get in front of a (slowly) moving car, only to spend the next 10 minutes on the verge of tears after this soccer mom, "ALMOST TOOK HIM FROM HIS KIDS A WEEK BEFORE CHRISTMAS!!" 

 

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29 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

here's a cop who should be kicked up in a mental ward on a heavy dose of lithium. my god the combination of victim complex, low IQ, and rage issues should have prevented this guy from ever becoming a cop in the first place, but then again those attributes seem to be the exact criteria that PD's are looking for when they hire cops these days.

watch as our hero moves himself 15+ feet to get in front of a (slowly) moving car, only to spend the next 10 minutes on the verge of tears after this soccer mom, "ALMOST TOOK HIM FROM HIS KIDS A WEEK BEFORE CHRISTMAS!!" 

 

what a pussy ass bitch

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here's something i'm tired of seeing- people being murdered because a cop is too disgustingly obese to handle a situation without unloading his gun into a "threat". 

 

the dead guy had been in a car accident just prior to this video and had suffered head trauma. there are also unconfirmed reports of mental illness. also, the official police report states something about the dead guy holding a rosary and rambling about jesus when Tubbo Mcgoo arrived on the scene. the dead dude was clearly not right in the head, and needed a visit to a hospital, not an entire magazine dumped into his chest.

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Putting this here because I don't know where else it might belong. Another episode in the long running series, The Police are the Mob. Mullins led the NYPD police union from 2002 to 2021 when he was finally forced to resign despite years of spewing racist bile on the record and railing against any and all attempts to reform NYPD and hold cops accountable for criminal behavior.  

 

image.thumb.png.a233aeca122b654c479de172b842f613.png

Quote

 

The disgraced ex-head of the NYPD’s Sergeants Benevolent Association is expected to cop to federal charges Thursday after allegedly stealing union dues to fund his lavish lifestyle, The Post has learned.

Ed Mullins, 61, is scheduled to appear in Manhattan federal court before Judge John Koeltl Thursday afternoon, where his lawyer told The Post he will change his plea to guilty in the case.

The specific charges he’s expected to admit to were not immediately known.

The feds and attorneys for Mullins — who was charged with wire fraud last year — have been in talks for a plea, court records show.

Mullins is accused of using union member dues to pay for hundreds of personal high-end meals as well as clothing, jewelry and home appliances, court records show.

The feds alleged he even tapped SBA money to pay for a relative’s college education.

In total, he allegedly embezzled hundreds of thousands of dollars from the union, according to the feds.

The FBI raided his home and union offices in October of 2021. Months later, he turned himself into the feds and was later released on a $250,000 bond.

 

 

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Apparently the Memphis pigs beat a black man to so badly he was hospitalized and then died in hospital, and have already fired the cops who did it. The city is bracing for the release of the bodycam footage, expecting a significant community response

https://apnews.com/article/crime-memphis-82428ca8a4ba395e57ec3eccc965c5f1

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