Kids - to have them or not

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4968]

There is definitely value to having one parent staying at home with the kids. Having the kid or kids in daycare, and then both parents spending the evening doing chores just to keep the household running is exhausting. Plus, with the cost of childcare these days, it just isn't always financially worth it.

[Chewbacca 7730]

58 minutes ago, Homercles said:

Most parents I know seem to have one set of grandparents that have zero interest in watching the kids and another who would move in if they thought they could.  My folks just never seemed interested and her parents passed away before we got together, so it’s only every 3-4 months we can get the sitter stars to align for an overnight/weekend…in an ideal world we’d have a night or weekend every month.  Those are magic and she wears me out.  

This is us.  Unfortunately, it's my parents that have zero interest in spending time with our boys and they are the ones that are local, so when our boys were younger we never got nights out unless we paid a sitter, and forget about a weekend alone.  MIL lives in east Texas and she loves spending time with them.  My oldest is down there right now for his spring break.

[Guest]

So on this board:

Pools -- worth it.

Kids? Hey man, you do you.

😁

[Francisco 2.0 32347]

RE: grandparents watching the kids.  Pre-covid, we could count on either my folks or my wife's to watch the kids anytime we wanted.  Granted, either set lived over an hour from us, but with a few days notice, we had sitters for a day or a week...whatever.  Hell, there were times they would drive here and get the kids for 2-3 days at a time, just because.  Plus, it was great for my kids was able to spend a lot of time with both sets of grandparents.  

Since covid, my mom has become partially disabled, my father has passed away, and my father in law was diagnosed with ALS.  We have a trip planned for July, and right now, my in-laws are ok with watching the kids---assuming my father in law does not significantly degrade between now and then.  But we are prepared that we just might have to cancel that trip.

 

[Celery Man 20902]

4 hours ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

 

There is the "wives and the dumb stuff they do" thread on here. I do not read it because my wife could do dumb stuff for years and she would have enough credit to do so without ridicule for decades to come given her outstanding job in raising our child.

[Homercles 10205]

2 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

This is us.  Unfortunately, it's my parents that have zero interest in spending time with our boys and they are the ones that are local, so when our boys were younger we never got nights out unless we paid a sitter, and forget about a weekend alone.  MIL lives in east Texas and she loves spending time with them.  My oldest is down there right now for his spring break.

My wife was practically raised by her grandparents since being a teen, when her mom passed away unexpectedly…before which her dad ran off with his secretary, and then passed away just before we started dating.  So her perspective on grandparents is probably a little skewed.  
 

Our close friends are like I posted…his parents live away + don’t seem to bother, but her mom lives close and they have to sometimes claw her daughter away.  It helps that the kiddo is now 14 and has always been independent, but they’ve been able to have weekends at home or trips away with no issues anytime they wanted.  Always been jealous.  Balance between being a couple and being parents is hugely important to me. 

[mdmost 42875]

On 3/12/2022 at 10:59 AM, LTbear said:

I appreciate this. This is one of my primary concerns/ thoughts - it seems to me that when kids are young, for several years, your life IS your kids, which I'm not sure I can handle. I have an amazing and fulfilling life, doing things I could not do with young kids (for example, spending each weekend in freezing temperatures photographing and videoing wildlife in Yellowstone and Glacier). I worry about my mental ability to handle giving up so much that I've worked so long and hard for. 

Enjoy Palo Duro - absolutely amazing place. And if you have time on the trip, squeeze in a visit to Caprock Canyons, which is also gorgeous and has a bison herd.

Holy shit. Thank you for the Caprock Canyons recommendation. That was great. What a nice hidden jewel when we were going to make that normally boring drive through Wichita Falls. The kids loved seeing the roaming bison and we got some fun interactions with the prairie dogs. I just wish we had more time for hiking but it was a great to drive through and look around for a bit. A lot less busy than Palo Duro but we were smart and went early every morning to avoid the crowds. 

[ernest_t_bass 1196]

I love my children.  Adopted my oldest daughter, and my ex-wife and I had my 2nd daughter.  I wouldn't give them up for the world.  But... if I had to do it all over again, I'm not 100% sure I would have kids again.  To me it's one of those things where I'm really glad I did it, but I'd never choose to do it again.

[fattyflattie 4636]

5 hours ago, Homercles said:

I think many ebb and flow, and look back wistfully to the dating/honeymoon stages without kids when the mix of freedom and boredom lead to ‘well let’s fuck’ many nights. A lot of women are more cerebral and post-baby weight gain + exhaustion + potential PPD + nursing = shut down completely.  
 

We surprisingly had a huge uptick when Covid kicked off because my wife was WFH but the kids were still in daycare, so she was more relaxed plus had shed the baby weight. In both 2021 and 2022 she’s undergone major job changes and I purposefully back off, but work to schedule date nights and weekends away…gotta break out of that daily grind. 
 

As I noted in another reply here I think plenty of dudes forget to keep dating their spouse and get lost in the grind of parenthood.  
 

Most parents I know seem to have one set of grandparents that have zero interest in watching the kids and another who would move in if they thought they could.  My folks just never seemed interested and her parents passed away before we got together, so it’s only every 3-4 months we can get the sitter stars to align for an overnight/weekend…in an ideal world we’d have a night or weekend every month.  Those are magic and she wears me out.  
 

Marriages are never constant, at least in my experience, and you gotta work at them if you want the full ‘benefits’.  Kids are a huge dynamic there and you gotta respect that your wife was there first and treat her that way.  Responsive desire is a thing, and Come As You Are is a great read on the subject.  I’ve also learned to embrace quality over quantity, and the occasional dry spell isn’t taken as personally. 
 

 

That was 50% serious, 50% tongue in cheek. Apologies, I was being a bit surly. My in laws moved 3 hours away just before we had kids, after being available to every beck and call for my SIL kids for 10+ years.  My MIL still comes down ALOT, and it is completely appreciated. Really, she’s a saint.  Unfortunately, my father has been addled with Parkinsons, and has pretty much shut down anything more than day trips, even though they are less than 90 mins away.  Luckily for me, the wife is a sex rocket. 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, ernest_t_bass said:

I love my children.  Adopted my oldest daughter, and my ex-wife and I had my 2nd daughter.  I wouldn't give them up for the world.  But... if I had to do it all over again, I'm not 100% sure I would have kids again.  To me it's one of those things where I'm really glad I did it, but I'd never choose to do it again.

That's what I say about the Marine Corps.  Semper Fidelis.

I love fatherhood and I loved it from the beginning.  Maybe having a great partner helped; but I've never had similar feelings about parenthood in general...that it was some kind of chore or set of tasks.  I have to admit, I probably overcompensate like a motherfucker having grown up without a dad, who left us when I was 9.  That is pure fuel if channeled correctly, and I feel like I did. I wanted to make things right by being the dad I didn't get.  My sons and I are close, even if the are ( rightly) momma's boys as well. I love my daughter-in-law and how happy she makes our son.  Gonna be a grandfather this July...or so.   Can't fucking wait.

P.S. I was adopted at age 4 because CPS took me away from my bio parents.  Add in some more layers of "trying to correct shit and give life a reset."

 

[Guest Lobo]

Damn, this is a bold thread.  Some of y'all hit right at the core of it.  It makes me a better man, I love it, I wouldn't trade it for anything, and it's the only thing keeping me tethered to this "planet" or "life."  But if I was somehow rebooted to the start of it all 10 years ago, maybe I'd just say "no."  I don't get it, but I get it.  Maybe it's an analogy for life itself?  If somebody in the Hall of Souls asked me if I wanted to come down here, even though I've known an adventurous and contemplative life, knowing what I now know...I'd probably take a hard pass.  But then again, I wouldn't get to know my daughters who are so damn amazing.  But then again, if they had never existed---I wouldn't miss it.  

I guess I have to be here, because the simulation requires it.  So it they're checking attendance, I wanna be with my girls and my best friend (my wife).  But shit, if they're not requiring participation...fuck it I'm out.  I just wanna be with them though as long as possible, the rest is just shit.  It's just absolute shit.  But if you're cool in the shit in whatever way you define that and you wanna help me help other people around us, you're my brother and I'm all about mutual support.  This place ain't getting any better apparently.  

[Homercles 10205]

On a side note I always like Louis CK, but once I had kids his parenting-related standup and elements of the show Louis were outstanding humor to keep me going.  
 

His take on 3yo…well we’ve all been there:

 

[LTbear 4161]

7 hours ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

There is definitely value to having one parent staying at home with the kids. Having the kid or kids in daycare, and then both parents spending the evening doing chores just to keep the household running is exhausting. Plus, with the cost of childcare these days, it just isn't always financially worth it.

This wouldn't be an option for us - both very dedicated to our careers (professor, doctor).

[Celery Man 20902]

does the doctor ever let the professor dress up like a real doctor in the bedroom?

 

you know, one thing that is interesting about having kids and having regrets - until you have kids, you can regret any decisions you've made without it meaning that you wish someone (not just someone but the person you love in a way that you could never love anyone else) had never been born at all. It is kind of an interesting mind thing.

I should probably take it over to the dad thread, but baby's first stomach bug was tonight. I was trying to get her to eat dinner and she yakked. Cleaned it up, was trying to feed her some teething crackers at least and she yakked all over those (they snapped and crackled like rice crispies all covered in her baby vomit). We watched a little bit of frozen with her head in my lap and you can guess where that's going. I switched sweatpants and she threw up on those again. Bathed her, she threw up a bit in the tub so I had to rinse her pretty good. Fed her her bottle, which she threw up once I got her up the stairs. At this point I was wearing one of those hoodie towels strategically to shield myself, but it meant I had to steam mop the floor after putting her down. And I had washed the ruggable cover which got baby vomit on it, so I had to dry that and and start another load with all the towels and sweatpants and steam mop covers, and put the ruggable cover back on, and haul around the ipad making sure she seems OK and is sleeping/not still throwing up (so far so good), and actually I had started a full load of baby laundry earlier in the day so after cleaning the kitchen and getting her play area back together, I folded that while rewatching some rick and morty because I don't have the energy for something I haven't seen 3 times already. That was like a medium high chaotic night - I mean, I haven't dealt with that problem before, and if she seemed more miserable I'd be more worried about the stomach thing, but it was manageable and kinda funny and I liked that she was resting her head in my lap when she was feeling bad, and I wouldn't switch it up. It's good. Actually I made cookie dough in the middle of all of that too, I just forgot about it because the baby started vomiting. So I've got cookie dough, which is nice.

[troph 24590]

I taught him how to shred. And that smile includes the “dang you were right! I do love this and I’m glad I worked hard to learn it. Thank you for teaching me.” and they are such sponges the lesson goes far beyond surfing here. Serious life lessons on the tennis court, on the board, just on and on. It’s like the greatest mentor opportunity you’ll ever have. 

the camaraderie from age 7-14 is amazing.  Nothing like it in all the world. I would genuinely rather hang out with my two younger boys over any adult right now. They are that cool to me.

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by troph

[Sandman 3403]

13 hours ago, troph said:

the camaraderie from age 7-14 is amazing.  Nothing like it in all the world. I would genuinely rather hang out with my two younger boys over any adult right now. They are that cool to me.

I remember those days. Then they go from "I want to go where you go and do what you do!" to "I cannot be seen in public with you, nor do I wish to speak to you about anything." almost overnight. I had girls, though. Maybe they're just wired different.

[High Plains Drifter 10984]

 

There is a saying that goes something like "a woman becomes a mother when she gets pregnant. A man becomes a father when he holds his baby for the first time."

I disagree. I didn't become a father until the first time that thing in my hands looked up at me and smiled.

 

 

0-3 is a literal shitstorm. But rocking your young child to sleep is sublime. There is nothing better in the world.

 

 

 

 

[Elvis 3357]

1 hour ago, Sandman said:

I remember those days. Then they go from "I want to go where you go and do what you do!" to "I cannot be seen in public with you, nor do I wish to speak to you about anything." almost overnight. I had girls, though. Maybe they're just wired different.

Or once they find out you have a big ass life insurance policy and then they realize you are worth more dead than alive.  Watch your back.

[ernest_t_bass 1196]

My 16.5 year old daughter is a normal egocentric teen, who worships the ground that her whore mother walks on, and "talks" to dad when she needs something.  Tried to have a conversation with her today, to try and communicate to her how her actions affect people.  That went real well (full sarcasm).

[troph 24590]

3 hours ago, Sandman said:

I remember those days. Then they go from "I want to go where you go and do what you do!" to "I cannot be seen in public with you, nor do I wish to speak to you about anything." almost overnight. I had girls, though. Maybe they're just wired different.

I have a 17 year old. if you read the last few posts I talk about two of my boys.  they happen to be 12-14.  I'd settle for I don't want to hang out with you much but I think you're ok.  my 17 year old hates me, but then I'm the only one that draws any sort of line/boundary/consequence so I'm a total dumbfuck idiot.

[troph 24590]

1 hour ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

There is a saying that goes something like "a woman becomes a mother when she gets pregnant. A man becomes a father when he holds his baby for the first time."

I disagree. I didn't become a father until the first time that thing in my hands looked up at me and smiled.

 

 

0-3 is a literal shitstorm. But rocking your young child to sleep is sublime. There is nothing better in the world.

 

 

 

 

0-5 is more like it.  6-14 is amazing. 15+ well with only one in it I can say it's worse than 0-5 so far.  hoping my younger two even out my experience, not holding my breath.

[Incredulity 11566]

I have 3.

Sometimes, it's the best thing I ever did.

Sometimes, it's the worst thing I ever did.

Sometimes, those times can be 15 minutes apart.

 

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by Incredulity

[mchookem 16246]

swinging is probably more difficult with kids. heh.

female POV incoming...

no kids. i always thought i'd have several, always wanted them, i was always the 'maternal' friend...i dreamt of a giant wedding and at least 3 kids... 

then...fell in love in my mid-twenties with a significantly older man who already had two semi-grown and had a vasectomy...and just like that we'd eloped and kids were pretty much off the table. 

point one, fair warning for you/your wife if you decide to pass - if it hasn't already started...33-37/38 was HARD. like...almost thought we'd get divorced hard. in retrospect i realize that was my 'biological clock' telling me YOU.MUST.HAVE.CHILDREN.NOW!!! there are alternatives we discussed but just never pulled the trigger. the female instinctual drive is no joke. so just make sure if y'all make that choice that she in particular is prepared for it. it would have been a lot easier to manage had i known what it was back then!  

regardless...just like many of those with children have said they wouldn't change it for the world...i feel the same now. once i got past that early 30s hump...absolutely zero regrets. in fact, i'm so happy we didn't. shit, it's hard enough being my own person and dealing with my own shit, plus i'm one of those that looks around the world, everything from social media to the climate, and all i can think now is 'thank god i never had kids!' 

now...full disclosure...a huge part of having no regrets whatsoever is the role i've been able to play with my niece, whom i've talked about on here in a few spots. her 'dad' is a POS and my sister has basically been a single mom (financially, physically, emotionally) for most of her 20 years. they have lived within 3 miles of us in Austin since she was two. i have been able to be a 'second mom' in the truest sense of the word...we are exceptionally close and she has always been able to trust and confide in me, many things that she doesn't even share with my sister (or at least doesn't share at first). i was the first to hear about sex...drugs...school issues...we did all her college tours together, just the two of us...i still know things that her mother doesn't know. my rule since she was a little kid was 'i'm not going to tell your mom [whatever] unless i determine something is a danger to you, and you have to trust that i can make that decision'. and when i call her on her shit she takes it VERY seriously (not that she doesn't take her mom seriously but it's different).   

i'm not sure i can adequately convey to a group of men how vitally important and just...downright beneficial it has been for her, as a young woman but especially with her situation and the mental/emotional issues she has (OCD, anxiety, anorexia) to have an older female that she trusts completely and that she actually listens to! 

we are incredibly alike - our brains work the exact same way, everybody agrees she is my 'mini-me' 😄 my sister has said in the midst of any number of arguments 'omg stfu it's like i'm talking to my sister!!' sometimes i've given her counsel and even she will say "that's perfect...but i have to say it differently or else mom's just gonna say 'you've been talking to your aunt haven't you'" lol. 

so when she calls me distraught or to talk through something, get advice, etc...i know exactly how she's (over)thinking the issue and can fully empathize and help her.  

i mean i didn't have that...my sister, my best friends, my best friends' daughters, literally none of them had that. to be clear i'm not in any way saying it's 'better' than a mother/daughter relationship...it's not at all. and i will never have that.

but it's a relationship that i 100% believe has contributed as much to who she is as anything else. she wrote me a long letter last summer and said it herself...'who i am and who i want to be has been shaped by you more than anyone else - you are my best friend and i couldn't imagine life without you!' ❤️

so anyways...my point in all that (sorry so long!) is...if i had my own kids there's no way i could have done for her and had the kind of influence on her that i have been able to have. she needed me more than i needed kids of my own. for that alone i am so glad we never had any. 

one other point i'll make, and it just really solidified and i came to terms with it this past year...i don't know about for men, but for women i think not having children allows you to maintain a certain level of selfishness and emotional disconnectedness. and i don't mean that in a bad way at all. i enjoy being selfish - i enjoy doing what i want, when i want, i enjoy not having someone else completely dependent on me, i enjoy being able to look at any situation and say 'what do i* want to do here?' (*including my spouse in consideration of course).

i'm not sure i'm adequately explaining it...it's been an emotional journey for me looking inward at my character and realizing how much i not only value my own personal independence and autonomy, but how much i rely on it for my own mental and emotional well-being.  

i didn't realize until middle age just how...fucking liberating it is as a woman to feel that. i don't think i would feel that if i were a mother. 

on the flipside, and this is why i bring it up...i have realized that i also haven't had to mature in some ways. i think being a parent causes such a fundamental shift in your emotional psyche (or it should) that it literally changes how you relate to other people. i have been able to maintain a certain level of...i dunno, detachment i guess, closed-offedness from others. and i don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, but it's definitely a 'thing', at least for me. 

jesus i'm rambling 😜 the last thing i'll say, and this always gets me in trouble but i never mean it to diminish what is probably the closest and can be the most fulfilling relationship most people will ever have...

but objectively, i think being a parent is certainly special...but it's not exceptional in the truest sense of the word. billions and billions and billions of people do it and have done it...there's nothing unusual or extraordinary about it. that's maybe a clinical/cynical way to look at it, but i am clinical/cynical by nature lol...at the end of the day it's a biological function and drive that we share with the entirety of the animal kingdom not to mention every single person that has ever/will ever live. 

i know there are folks that attribute more spiritual/religious meaning to it all...but even in my situation with everything i described above...it's still just my contribution to try and help my niece navigate life with the least amount of harm and the most benefit as a human she can have.

good luck with your decision...and i mean it about the biological clock, it's serious business! 😊

Edited March 16, 2022 by mchookem

[Homercles 10205]

3 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

There is a saying that goes something like "a woman becomes a mother when she gets pregnant. A man becomes a father when he holds his baby for the first time."

I disagree. I didn't become a father until the first time that thing in my hands looked up at me and smiled.

 

 

0-3 is a literal shitstorm. But rocking your young child to sleep is sublime. There is nothing better in the world.

 

 

 

 

I felt like a dad the first time I put my boy up on my shoulders.  He was probably 2.  

[Celery Man 20902]

Agree it changes how you relate to people, and also drastically changes your gaf about a whole range of things. I haven’t adopted the uniform but I get it.

 

[Incredulity 11566]

Yeah, I find myself disciplining my kids and my brain will kind of glitch because I literally sound exactly like my dad when I get to that tone.

[Nivek 16873]

I always knew I wanted kids. Wife wanted them too, but became less sure as we hit our mid 30s. We were older parents and my youngest was born when we were in our early 40’s.

One kid is generally easy to handle. The baby stage is difficult to adjust to, but is really an easy stage all things being equal. Hobbies still exists you can go out easily and the extra 20 minutes it takes doesn’t really change much. Your tolerance for things also changes, having a kid shoot liquid shit out and blocking it with your hand to protect your wall and it not phasing you, or cleaning vomit out of a car seat. I became a little tougher and more resilient, more patient, softer, and more of a leader. I learned and applied soft skills from home to dealing with other adults.

With more kids comes a different experience. Going out is much more difficult and it changes the workload significantly. Going out with 2 kids seems easy when you have 3. And when you reflect on having one kid, it doesn’t even seem like it should be classified as parenting. If you had a loose structure to your life, you find that you need more structure to manage the zone defense. When you were in man to man coverage, you could play fast and loose.

My wife and I have different talents when it comes to the kids. I am fine with taking them anywhere, managing them for extended periods of time, and playing with them at their level. My wife is better about organizing doc visits, medical and school needs, and decorating and buying them clothes and supplies.

Hobbies changed as they aged and there were more of them. I play Minecraft with my kids. I play lords mobile with my son. We play baseball/catch. Ride bikes. I play Barbie with my daughter. Trucks with my little boy. This matters.

The other day I drove to the dealership and noticed a restaurant that I used to visit. It was a date night or friend night out spot. It seemed like a different life. But I didn’t miss it. Our lives have changed. Had we been younger when we had kids we would have had more energy and if I was 40 or 50 with a 20 yr old kid, that would be fun too. I would have found a way to make it fun. I will find a way to make it fun to have a 20 yr old when I am in my 60s.

I could have lived fine without kids, but I always knew I wanted to be married and to have them. I also enjoyed my long courtship and many years of being married without a kid. But that is me, I try to make the best of a situation even when it is liquid shit shooting all over my hands (my thought wasn’t about how gross it was, or how it smelled, it was about how it was cooler - temperature wise- than I expected).

I felt no pressure from the family or society. When people would bring it up I would shut that shit down.

You read more books about raising kids, how the brain develops, what to expect, etc. you reflect more when you have kids with learning challenges and start to recognize patterns in undiagnosed adults. And your brain actually changes. You trade some cognitive ability to focus for heightened spatial awareness and looking out for hazards. You understand your parents more. Even if you do not agree with the choices they made or didn’t make. You also understand bad parenting more, why ladies in the past with 4+ children would open the door and kick them out of the house until dinner time. You understand why some women drank in the home. You understand why some men just ran away. Even if you don’t agree with it.

You constantly clean the same shit, you also learn that repetition and routine is the key for learning with small kids. Repeating the same stuff is also an adjustment you have to make. It feels frustrating, but to them they simply sometimes don’t hear you even if you are 2 feet away.


But I guess I am projecting here. I am the guy who let his kid order a hamburger with sprinkles and Oreo cookies on it, and then I let him decide if he liked it.

The adjustments and miserable parts are easy to describe. The fun parts are very difficult to describe. Your son wanting to hold your hand, not out of fear, or habit, but just hold you. Seeing your son dance on the Jumbotron at his first Longhorn game. Feeling his joy and mixed with your own. When your little girl looks at you like Zeus, because that is who you are to her, no matter how out of shape, battered and bruised you are from life, motorcycles, or nagging injuries. Watching them help their little sibling out, to comfort him, or to spend their money to buy him an ice cream.

You get to relive these life experiences all over again, from a different perspective.

Here is the other thing. You miss them when they are gone. Not just gone to school or out of the home, but gone to their friends home, or their mom takes them out.

And lastly your affection runs deep. If a doctor told you your kid had a bad organ you might then and there perform harakiri on yourself and ask the doc which one does she need.

The mess is a near constant with multiple kids depending on the home arrangements you have. I would highly suggest that you and only you approves of presents/toys, otherwise ask for books or cash you can put into a fund for them. They get overwhelmed with toys.

No one can really help you here. In someways it is like riding a bike, you can hire a nanny/get your parents to help but those are the training wheels. You have to learn balance on your own. Books and advise from assholes on the Internet, are just a little padding for when you fall.

[Baboontyme 2808]

On 3/15/2022 at 9:59 PM, Lobo said:

Damn, this is a bold thread.  Some of y'all hit right at the core of it.  It makes me a better man, I love it, I wouldn't trade it for anything, and it's the only thing keeping me tethered to this "planet" or "life."  But if I was somehow rebooted to the start of it all 10 years ago, maybe I'd just say "no."  I don't get it, but I get it.  Maybe it's an analogy for life itself?  If somebody in the Hall of Souls asked me if I wanted to come down here, even though I've known an adventurous and contemplative life, knowing what I now know...I'd probably take a hard pass.  But then again, I wouldn't get to know my daughters who are so damn amazing.  But then again, if they had never existed---I wouldn't miss it.  

I guess I have to be here, because the simulation requires it.  So it they're checking attendance, I wanna be with my girls and my best friend (my wife).  But shit, if they're not requiring participation...fuck it I'm out.  I just wanna be with them though as long as possible, the rest is just shit.  It's just absolute shit.  But if you're cool in the shit in whatever way you define that and you wanna help me help other people around us, you're my brother and I'm all about mutual support.  This place ain't getting any better apparently.  

This is outstanding.

I have gotten to the stage as a parent where I'm starting to get existential. 

When you boil it all down, life is really about one of two things. Do you believe we're here to make the world a better place or do you believe we're here to experience as much cool shit as possible during our existence? There are plenty of healthy balances in between but I think that gets to the core of it. No absolute truth to either answer. It is totally fair to realize that procreating is not going to make the world a better place and it's equally ok to think the mystery of life revolves around experiences and you think being Mormon and having 14 kids is the ultimate experience. But it's a question worth pondering, and the reasons behind that answer are worth pondering. 

[F250 28716]

On 3/14/2022 at 1:30 PM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I've never really understood the phrase, "I can't imagine my life without my kids."  Sure, I get the sentiment and no one is suggesting that they're taken away from the parents. 

Once we make almost any major decision (where to live, who to marry, career path, kids, etc.) it's impossible to fully comprehend your life if you had made a different choice.  I can't imagine my life if I had decided to live in NYC over Houston in the 90s.

If someone has 2 kids, they can't imagine what their life would be like with 4.  But that doesn't mean stopping at 2 was the right decision. It's possible that there really isn't a right decision when it comes to having kids. It just is what it is.

 

When people say they can't imagine life without their children it's probably based on the idea of parental love. The idea of never experiencing unconditional love is pretty mind boggling once you experience it.

And no it is nothing like living in Houston.

 

[Jkwellborn 6658]

It’s crazy too. Because once you have kids, that’s how you remember your life. Before kids and after kids. You’ll remember some stuff before they walked or talked or sept through the night, but you’ll eventually just relate everything around that.

If you have friends without kids, you won’t see them much for a long time.

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

.l
If you have friends without kids, you won’t see them much for a long time.

My best friend and college roommate, with no kids, has never visited my family at our house in Houston (we have met up with him at his house in Austin or his mom’s on Lake Conroe). One of my other very close friends from high school lives in Durango and has been to my house at least 3 times and we have gone over to his mom’s (rip) in Houston a few other times.

[F250 28716]

1 hour ago, Jkwellborn said:

If you have friends without kids, you won’t see them much for a long time.

My best friend from childhood did kind of fade out after I became a dad. He pretty much lived like a frat boy until he was 40. He would visit for birthdays and holidays but when he hit 40 he settled down and became a regular visitor ever since. He is still a confirmed childless bachelor but our lifestyles became more compatible once he settled down into adult life.

I remember once when we were at the cabin after hunting he had some Scotch flowing through him amd he started talking about Taylor Swift. My son who was like 12 at the time, "isn't uncle Ryan kinda old for liking Taylor Swift?" lulz

 

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

My best friend from childhood did kind of fade out after I became a dad. He pretty much lived like a frat boy until he was 40. He would visit for birthdays and holidays but when he hit 40 he settled down and became a regular visitor ever since. He is still a confirmed childless bachelor but our lifestyles became more compatible once he settled down into adult life.
I remember once when we were at the cabin after hunting he had some Scotch flowing through him amd he started talking about Taylor Swift. My son who was like 12 at the time, "isn't uncle Ryan kinda old for liking Taylor Swift?" lulz
 

Haha. At first I was like does F250 know what confirmed bachelor means, then I got to the end of your post.

My buddy is married. They talked about kids, but I guess decided against it.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13418]

7 hours ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Haha. At first I was like does F250 know what confirmed bachelor means, then I got to the end of your post.

My buddy is married. They talked about kids, but I guess decided against it.

Confirmed bachelor has different meanings for people. Some say it implies being gay and others say it doesn’t. 

[Jkwellborn 6658]

Confirmed bachelor has different meanings for people. Some say it implies being gay and others say it doesn’t. 

I’ve never heard anything about it being gay.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13418]

20 minutes ago, Jkwellborn said:

I’ve never heard anything about it being gay.

I’m with you but I believe others have decided otherwise. I was out with a wide range of friends and someone mentioned that someone not there was a confirmed bachelor. Off hand remark.  Later one of the guys pulled me aside and told me that he didn’t know that guy was gay. He thought confirmed bachelor meant that. I had made it to my late 40s before hearing that definition.

[atomheartbevo 89471]

7 hours ago, Jkwellborn said:

I’ve never heard anything about it being gay.

6 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I’m with you but I believe others have decided otherwise. I was out with a wide range of friends and someone mentioned that someone not there was a confirmed bachelor. Off hand remark.  Later one of the guys pulled me aside and told me that he didn’t know that guy was gay. He thought confirmed bachelor meant that. I had made it to my late 40s before hearing that definition.

As a kid/teen I've heard it refer to gay men (and I'm old enough and have lived in enough places in the South to have heard the term "southern dandy" as well), but I've also heard it refer to men who were just...apparently not into pursuing anybody (or their personality wouldn't allow it).  I've got a cousin who has a personality that...he's not an asshole, but it's just not going to work out.

 Didn't really hear it used again until 10 or 15 years ago, when Lindsey Graham was running for President, and people called him that (think a reporter or two asked him about the First Lady thing).

I wonder if the different meanings are a regional thing.  When I heard it as a kid, it was used by old women who disapproved of the guys they were talking about.  Now if I heard it, it's usually just somebody who doesn't want marriage and kids.

[atomheartbevo 89471]

16 hours ago, Jkwellborn said:

It’s crazy too. Because once you have kids, that’s how you remember your life. Before kids and after kids. You’ll remember some stuff before they walked or talked or sept through the night, but you’ll eventually just relate everything around that.

If you have friends without kids, you won’t see them much for a long time.

Yep.  The Before Times.  Or BC = Before Children.

And I watched as my friends who had kids drifted away from everybody else (who didn't), and then when we had kids, we drifted away from a lot of friends, and migrated towards new friends we met in the neighorhood or at parks (or later pre-school) who had kids.  It's just easier to maintain friendships with people who are in the same boat as you.

[Guest]

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=confirmed bachelor

 

[Bernard 879]

I never had the desire for kids. Now that I’m 53, I still don’t.

There are pros and cons to everything; and everyone gets to do their own math. Parents like to say, “I can’t imagine my life without my kids”. I believe them, but it goes both ways, because I can’t imagine what my life would be like had I married one of the girls I loved in my 20’s or 30’s or 40’s and had kids. Trying to realistically imagine the nearly infinite number of alternative paths your life actually could have taken is impossible. Maybe we all just rationalize our choices since there’s no going back.

I like my life. I like being single. I like being childless. I like that I was able to retire from real work at 39. I’m not rich, but it doesn’t take much to keep a one-person household going. I’m sure I’d still be grinding if I had a wife and kids depending on me. I prefer to sleep alone. I like waking up when I please. I like my independence. I like spending my days with whoever I want, doing whatever I want. I don’t like having to coordinate my daily schedule / life with anyone else. I like making decisions without the need for consensus. I like coming home to a peaceful, quiet space. I like my low-stress, carefree life. 

Lots of my friends have kids at this point. I can see the pros, but I wouldn’t switch places with any them. Of course I never really wanted a wife either, which may or may not be related to the issue at hand.

Bernard

[Guest Lobo]

I sometimes wonder if the declining birth rates in our country, and the West in general, are due to the fact that we date/co-habitate more.  And not in the present sense like, "Oh, why have kids...we're banging and traveling and having fun?"  But rather in hindsight, as you accumulate past serious relationships, oftentimes you are left with the, "Holy shit, so glad I didn't settle down and have kids with that fucking lunatic."  You rack up a few of those, next thing you know...you're 40 and just not having kids to save the world from little versions of your nutjob ex.  It's nature doing itself a favor via heartbroken, but wiser, exes strewn about the landscape.  If you live in a culture/country where you just don't have much experience in other romantic relationships, yeah religion and tradition and the need for more labor are huge factors...but I think it's also you just don't know what a fucking psychopath looks like in the morning.  You go through a couple of those and you're not gonna be terribly interested in banging out a few kids for a full decade.  

You date a crazy person in the morning, you dated a crazy person.  You date crazy people all day, we're all fucking crazy.  And hence, declining birth dates.  Malcolm Gladwell is publishing this economics phenomenon in his next book.  

[ernest_t_bass 1196]

I love my 16.5 year old daughter, and I would die for her. But I don’t like her very much. Is that fatherhood?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Guest Lobo]

Another thread derail for another time.  But modern-day "fatherhood" particularly in the West is only 1% of our species' existence (and I'm being insanely generous with the roundup).  

95% of it was see your children's faces in the morning before you headed out to hunt/gather.  See their faces as you arrived back at dusk, every day of every year.  Gave you a sense of purpose and some connectivity before bedtime. 4% of your existence was, see your children's faces as you work together in the fields or the factories.  Gave you a sense of purpose and some connectivity before bedtime.  Last 1% is us.  See them for multiple hours a day, all weekend long, all summer, and a number of federal holidays.  Stripping away all the religious bullshit attached to parenthood, that's a lot of time in person.  Nobody likes everybody for that many hours a month.  Think about how little you can stand most people.  Then make them smaller, louder, and less willing to throw money in for the meal.  I love mine, but holy shit...let's take a breather every once in awhile.

[Goofyboy 3227]

My son does online public school at home. I work from home. We are together everyday. It has taught me patience. I also wouldn’t trade it for anything.

[Celery Man 20902]

Man, I almost died several years back and that made me pretty at peace with the idea of dying. Like, I already should have died, so this is a freebie. And if you're comfortable with "worst case scenario, I die, and on a cosmic level that's not a huge deal" life can kinda get easier. But having a kid changes that dynamic - there's fear again in a way that I had a reprieve from for a while.

[Js1 85151]

On 3/17/2022 at 11:34 PM, F250 said:

My best friend from childhood did kind of fade out after I became a dad. He pretty much lived like a frat boy until he was 40. He would visit for birthdays and holidays but when he hit 40 he settled down and became a regular visitor ever since. He is still a confirmed childless bachelor but our lifestyles became more compatible once he settled down into adult life.

I remember once when we were at the cabin after hunting he had some Scotch flowing through him amd he started talking about Taylor Swift. My son who was like 12 at the time, "isn't uncle Ryan kinda old for liking Taylor Swift?" lulz

 

Oh my god, I think I'm going to be the Uncle Ryan of my friend group now that they're having kids. 

[Billy Pilgrim 1913]

I didn’t necessarily want kids when I was younger but we had them to keep my wife happy. Now I love them almost more than anything in the world….. I didn’t want a dog either but got one to keep my wife happy, and now I love that dog more than anything in the world. You just never know.

[South Austin 52170]

Late to this thread, but I always wanted to be a dad, I love being a dad, and I don't regret it for a second.  I know the early years were a rough adjustment, but I almost don't remember it.  The middle-of-the-night feedings and the restaurant tantrums almost seem like a blur, and I mainly remember the good stuff.

My kids are now in fifth grade (son) and tenth grade (daughter), and we have a solid relationship.  Oddly, it's even more so after their parents divorced over two years ago.  My high school daughter understandably doesn't want to spend as much time as me, but she still seems to enjoy my company with a limited amount of eye-rolling, and teaching her to drive has been a fun new way for us to bond.  My son and I are buds.  He likes going on long bike rides and watching movies together, and in June I'm taking him on a New York City trip, like I did with his sister when she was in elementary school.

Yes, in a lot of ways they are harder work as they get older.  More sports and other extracurricular activities that take up your time.  And if I have to go to another evening McCallum High guitar recital where they seemingly play the same fucking tunes I'm going to pull my gotdam hair out!

But here's a situation that's somewhat unique for me compared to many others on this thread -- since I'm divorced I see my kids 50% of the time.  That means, 50% of the time I don't have my kids, so I have a lot more freedom without child obligations during that time (but still attending a few kid activities here and there during my time off).  It's the silver lining of divorce that nobody wants to talk about.  By no means do I advocate divorce and it was an absolutely shitty experience.  But it has mitigated some of the time suck of parenthood that others on this thread experience.

[Baboontyme 2808]

SA - I hope I'm wrong but prepare yourself mentally for your 5th grader not being your best buddy anymore. It's good in a way as they discover themselves and are with their peers more. But it also sucks as a parent. Mine just hit 6th this year. Pre-pandemic and at the beginning (end of 4th), he hung out with me every night. Now not so much. As in never. 

[South Austin 52170]

53 minutes ago, Baboontyme said:

SA - I hope I'm wrong but prepare yourself mentally for your 5th grader not being your best buddy anymore. It's good in a way as they discover themselves and are with their peers more. But it also sucks as a parent. Mine just hit 6th this year. Pre-pandemic and at the beginning (end of 4th), he hung out with me every night. Now not so much. As in never. 

I'm fully prepared for the possibility that he'll want to spend little to no time with me as the years go on, which is why I'm soaking up our time together now.  And I was a kid who didn't want to hang out with my parents as I started middle school and through high school, so I get it. 

And my daughter still enjoys my company.  My son has a sleepover tonight, and shockingly she agreed to go out to dinner with me instead of hanging with her friends or watching TV in her room all night.