Bogie or the Duke...who ya got?

[GhostOfTomJoad 9,381]

Humphrey Bogart or John Wayne? Two of the most iconic actors in American cinema. They've both been dead for over half a century and yet they still rate near the top of polls of American male stars. There are no losers in this game.

Bogie's my guy. As much as I love Wayne's portrayal of Ethan in The Searchers, Bogie as Rick Blaine in Casablanca seals it. 

Celebrate 'em both.

[austingirl 2,192]

Bogie's the better actor, and I love me some Casablanca. However, El Dorado is one of my favorite movies from childhood. I have lots of great memories watching with my family. Dad's a huge fan of the Duke and he made us watch most of his catalog back in the day.

[MissingInAction 25,245]

Bogie is hands down the better actor. Shit I'd put him against anyone and be hard pressed to find his better. 

The Caine Mutiny is probably my favorite movie of his. His portrayal of Capt Queeg going batshit still makes me.uncomfortable.

The Duke is unquestioned as an icon of Americana, but his acting range was limited. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13,050]

Ooooo. That's almost cruel. Same as @austingirl--My late father was fond of John Wayne and he would sit in his big chair watching whatever movie was on and I would sit on the floor and lean back against his legs watching. The Cowboys (listed first because that was a fave, even though it's sad), They Were Expendable, Fort Apace, Sands of Iwo Jima, Hondo, The Alamo, the Sons of Katie Elder, and so many many more. My dad wasn't very talkative growing up, but he did so love to watch those movies.

Buuuut, my pick is Humphrey Bogart, because Casablanca is just mmmmm, so very special. Love a lot of his other movies too. The Big Sleep, African Queen, and The Caine Mutiny are some of my faves of his.

[RPM 26,381]

Bogie by a mile. Actually served in the Navy unlike Draft Dodger Wayne.

[austingirl 2,192]

Oddly enough, I've never seen the Wayne version of True Grit. Dad doesn't like it and thinks it's weird that he won the Oscar for that movie.

Another Bogey favorite of mine is The African Queen. Forgot about that one till this thread.

[Kennythetiger 9,490]

Mmmmm. Katherine Hepburn. I like the way she talked. 

[C-Man 27,293]

The Duke is unquestioned as an icon of Americana, but his acting range was limited. 

Give me Bogart. Better actor and Wayne was racist AF.

[Longhornstampede 3,191]

1 hour ago, MissingInAction said:

Bogie is hands down the better actor. Shit I'd put him against anyone and be hard pressed to find his better. 

The Caine Mutiny is probably my favorite movie of his. His portrayal of Capt Queeg going batshit still makes me.uncomfortable.

The Duke is unquestioned as an icon of Americana, but his acting range was limited. 

Oh come on now!!! No one could have pulled off Genghis Khan like the Duke!

[NeverMarryAStripper 21,999]

I had a German Shepard named Duke Wayne of Greenwood Village.  My second oldest was supposed to be named John Wayne because my first ex was convinced she was having a girl, but she ended up putting her foot down when he was born.  When he left the hospital he still didn’t have name.  Bogie was pretty good too though.

[Texzilla58 4,745]

John Wayne was great in many movies: the Quiet Man is greatness. The Searchers, True Grit, The Shootist, and a bmch of others are greatness.

Bogart was a great actor, and I love Caine Mutiny, African Queen, Casablanca, Maltese falcon etc. are excellence.

I put Jimmy Stewart, Clark Gable, and Gary Cooper up with them as well.

[WhatTheBuck 28,823]

8 hours ago, MissingInAction said:

Bogie is hands down the better actor. Shit I'd put him against anyone and be hard pressed to find his better. 

The Caine Mutiny is probably my favorite movie of his. His portrayal of Capt Queeg going batshit still makes me.uncomfortable.

The Duke is unquestioned as an icon of Americana, but his acting range was limited. 

Claude Rains is better. 

[baboso 6,057]

11 hours ago, austingirl said:

Oddly enough, I've never seen the Wayne version of True Grit. Dad doesn't like it and thinks it's weird that he won the Oscar for that movie.

Another Bogey favorite of mine is The African Queen. Forgot about that one till this thread.

The Coen brothers remake is head and shoulders above the original.  

[Vito Andolini 9,135]

Between those two, I’d have to take Bogart due to the aforementioned The Caine Mutiny, one of the best portrayals of paranoia ever put on screen. And, I’m just not a Wayne fan. But honestly (and not to shit on the premise of the thread, because both were two of the greatest “stars” ever), but thank goodness for Brando, who came in and blew that affected style of acting out of the water, which then begat Pacino, Hoffman, Hackman, etc. 

[TonyTexas 10,537]

9 hours ago, Texzilla58 said:

I put Jimmy Stewart, Clark Gable, and Gary Cooper up with them as well.

Add Henry Fonda to that list. He had some great roles and killed them all. 

[tigol 2,417]

Between those two, I’d have to take Bogart due to the aforementioned The Caine Mutiny, one of the best portrayals of paranoia ever put on screen. And, I’m just not a Wayne fan. But honestly (and not to shit on the premise of the thread, because both were two of the greatest “stars” ever), but thank goodness for Brando, who came in and blew that affected style of acting out of the water, which then begat Pacino, Hoffman, Hackman, etc. 

Everything checks out.

[GhostOfTomJoad 9,381]

Yeah this is one where you definitely have to separate the art from the artist or it's a slam dunk for Bogie. And Bogie was just cooler IMO. Hard ass, wise ass, bad ass, tough guy with a soft spot in his heart that would be his downfall...he could play all of the essential leads especially in the noir genre.

[Beau Vine 54,489]

As actors?  Is this a serious question?

 

[GhostOfTomJoad 9,381]

34 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

As actors?  Is this a serious question?

 

I believe I specifically defined them as "American male stars." Do you see the word 'actor' anywhere in the first post? Nobody has ever claimed Wayne was anything more than a minimally capable actor. But that doesn't mean he wasn't perfectly cast in many of his most iconic roles.

[Carl Spackler 3,506]

As an actor, it's Bogart.  As an American icon, it's Wayne.  

[msbesq 387]

Wayne was a chicken shit and refused to even go overseas to entertain the troops during WWII, even after his close friend and mentor, John Ford begged him. Bogart served in the Navy during WWI. Wayne's birds of a feather--Ward Bond and Walter Brennan were racist and anti-Semitic. Marion looked good on a horse but he couldn't hold a candle to HB as an actor or as human being. HB was much more of an American icon. He and Bacall fought very publicly against HUAC, while Wayne embraced it.

[Carl Spackler 3,506]

17 minutes ago, msbesq said:

Wayne was a chicken shit and refused to even go overseas to entertain the troops during WWII, even after his close friend and mentor, John Ford begged him. Bogart served in the Navy during WWI. Wayne's birds of a feather--Ward Bond and Walter Brennan were racist and anti-Semitic. Marion looked good on a horse but he couldn't hold a candle to HB as an actor or as human being. HB was much more of an American icon. He and Bacall fought very publicly against HUAC, while Wayne embraced it.

No question that Bogart was a better person and someone whose personal life was a much better example of what might be called the American Way.

But in terms of image, i.e., being an icon and symbol of Americana, it's John Wayne by far.       

[msbesq 387]

We have different definitions of what an American icon should look like and act and represent to the world.

[Sawbonz 27,712]

16 hours ago, Kennythetiger said:

Mmmmm. Katherine Hepburn. I like the way she talked. 

[GhostOfTomJoad 9,381]

The Duke as an icon is greatly accentuated by his performances in legendary westerns. The cowboy braving the western frontier is a massive part of the American mythology. He also almost never played a straight up bad guy. He knew his image was the most important thing he brought to any part. It didn't matter if he was wearing a cowboy hat or a GI uniform, he was playing the same part (Genghis Kahn excluded )

Bogart began almost exclusively as a gangster or a heel. He also had the courage to play crooks, villains, greedy bastards and raving mad power hungry lunatics.

Rick Blaine is ultimate American icon in my book because of his complexity.

[Go Pokes 979]

Bogie.  I'm not a fan of John Wayne, his shitty acting, or a majority of his movies.  

[HornOnTheBayou 8,958]

53 minutes ago, GhostOfTomJoad said:

Rick Blaine is ultimate American icon in my book because of his complexity.

This. I was trying to think of a good quote to use for this post, but there are too damn many. I'll just go with my favorite. "I remember every detail. The Germans wore gray, you wore blue." 

Ok, one more
"You ran guns to Ethiopia. You fought against the fascists in Spain."
"What of it?"
"Isn't it strange that you always happen to be fighting on the side of the underdog?"
"Yes. I found that a very expensive hobby, too. But then I never was much of a businessman."

[rage-a-holic 4,503]

1 hour ago, msbesq said:

Wayne was a chicken shit and refused to even go overseas to entertain the troops during WWII, even after his close friend and mentor, John Ford begged him. Bogart served in the Navy during WWI. Wayne's birds of a feather--Ward Bond and Walter Brennan were racist and anti-Semitic. Marion looked good on a horse but he couldn't hold a candle to HB as an actor or as human being. HB was much more of an American icon. He and Bacall fought very publicly against HUAC, while Wayne embraced it.

You sound unhinged and delusional.

Quote

America's entry into World War II resulted in a deluge of support for the war effort from all sectors of society, and Hollywood was no exception. Wayne was exempted from service due to his age (34 at the time of Pearl Harbor) and family status (classified as 3-A – family deferment). Wayne repeatedly wrote to John Ford saying he wanted to enlist, on one occasion inquiring whether he could get into Ford's military unit.^[39] Wayne did not attempt to prevent his reclassification as 1-A (draft eligible), but Republic Studios was emphatically resistant to losing him, since he was their only A-list actor under contract. Herbert J. Yates, president of Republic, threatened Wayne with a lawsuit if he walked away from his contract,^[40] and Republic Pictures intervened in the Selective Service process, requesting Wayne's further deferment.^[41]

U.S. National Archives records indicate that Wayne, in fact, did make an application^[42] to serve in the Office of Strategic Services (OSS), precursor to the modern CIA, and had been accepted within the U.S. Army's allotted billet to the OSS. William J. Donovan, OSS commander, wrote Wayne a letter informing him of his acceptance into the Field Photographic Unit as a special forces commando, but the letter went to his estranged wife Josephine's home. She never told him about it. Wayne toured U.S. bases and hospitals in the South Pacific for three months in 1943 and 1944,^[43] with the USO.^[44][45][46] During this trip, he carried out a request from Donovan to assess whether General Douglas MacArthur, commander of the South West Pacific Area, or his staff were hindering the work of the OSS.^[21]: 88 Donovan later issued Wayne an OSS Certificate of Service to memorialize Wayne's contribution to the OSS mission

 

[msbesq 387]

Stewart, Fonda, Niven and Gable were all older with wives or families and all served. And then there's this from military.com: https://www.military.com/history/why-john-wayne-was-labeled-draft-dodger-during-world-war-ii.html

[twosheds 374]

Claude Rains is better. 

Maybe but he’s invisible

[rage-a-holic 4,503]

19 minutes ago, msbesq said:

Stewart, Fonda, Niven and Gable were all older with wives or families and all served. And then there's this from military.com: https://www.military.com/history/why-john-wayne-was-labeled-draft-dodger-during-world-war-ii.html

Quote

Herbert J. Yates, president of Republic, threatened Wayne with a lawsuit if he walked away from his contract,^[40] and Republic Pictures intervened in the Selective Service process, requesting Wayne's further deferment.^[41]

U.S. National Archives records indicate that Wayne, in fact, did make an application^[42] to serve in the Office of Strategic Services (OSS), precursor to the modern CIA, and had been accepted within the U.S. Army's allotted billet to the OSS. William J. Donovan, OSS commander, wrote Wayne a letter informing him of his acceptance into the Field Photographic Unit as a special forces commando, but the letter went to his estranged wife Josephine's home. She never told him about it

Your definition of "draft dodger" is pretty strange.

[Carl Spackler 3,506]

2 hours ago, msbesq said:

We have different definitions of what an American icon should look like and act and represent to the world.

It's not really about my "definition" of an American icon or even my opinion about how an American icon should act.  (As I said above, I actually agree with you that, in many respects, Bogart led the more honorable life.) 

Rather, it's an issue of image/perception on a broad public level.  If you asked people around the country to identify one single individual who personifies the "American Way" or is an "American icon," I'm pretty confident that, for better or worse, you'd hear John Wayne's name in response more than Bogart.  That's what I was referring to when I said that the Duke is the bigger American icon.  I wasn't saying that I personally admire the guy.  He certainly had flaws.  But he's also the guy you still see -- even decades after his death -- being imitated and referenced in modern culture on a regular basis.          

[Mrs Whiggins 13,050]

3 hours ago, GhostOfTomJoad said:

The Duke as an icon is greatly accentuated by his performances in legendary westerns. The cowboy braving the western frontier is a massive part of the American mythology. He also almost never played a straight up bad guy. He knew his image was the most important thing he brought to any part. It didn't matter if he was wearing a cowboy hat or a GI uniform, he was playing the same part (Genghis Kahn excluded )

Bogart began almost exclusively as a gangster or a heel. He also had the courage to play crooks, villains, greedy bastards and raving mad power hungry lunatics.

Rick Blaine is ultimate American icon in my book because of his complexity.

I discussed it in another thread on movies, but I pondered if Casablanca was too sacrosanct in film to ever be given a prequel of sorts because if anyone had a backstory, it was Rick Blaine. Merely hinted at by Victor Lazlo among other characters, it is one of the reasons the movie endures. Just enough of a glimpse of a character for us to think we know him, and yet vague (but not due to lazy writing) enough to show us (as the plot develops) that maybe we don't.

[Bevo&Pevo 5,281]

Bogart is the hands down winner.  Key Largo is one of my faves.  I also dig We're No Angels.  Bogie doing some comedy.

[GhostOfTomJoad 9,381]

I discussed it in another thread on movies, but I pondered if Casablanca was too sacrosanct in film to ever be given a prequel of sorts because if anyone had a backstory, it was Rick Blaine. Merely hinted at by Victor Lazlo among other characters, it is one of the reasons the movie endures. Just enough of a glimpse of a character for us to think we know him, and yet vague (but not due to lazy writing) enough to show us (as the plot develops) that maybe we don't.

Oh God, I can't imagine how bad a prequel to Casablanca would turn out 80 years down rhe road.

The mystery of Rick's past is perfectly unknown. As is Ilsa's. Great movies draw you in with details that aren't fully explained.

You can't put another brush stroke on the Mona Lisa. Casablanca is in the same vein.

[burntorangebongos 10,752]

Bogie in African Queen and Key Largo can't be overstated as the very fine acting it was by a man in his element. 

Quiet Man is my favorite Wayne flick. Him and Maureen O'Hara should have fucked in real life back then, they were absolutely beautiful together. 

[rage-a-holic 4,503]

8 minutes ago, burntorangebongos said:

Bogie in African Queen and Key Largo can't be overstated as the very fine acting it was by a man in his element. 

Quiet Man is my favorite Wayne flick. Him and Maureen O'Hara should have fucked in real life back then, they were absolutely beautiful together. 

The rumor (and confirmed by one of Wayne's friends) was that they had a quiet affair for many years over multiple marriages.

[burntorangebongos 10,752]

Yaaay! Happy to hear it. They had so much chemistry together. McClintock when they were older only worked because of it. It was a shit movie all around except for them. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13,050]

1 hour ago, GhostOfTomJoad said:

Oh God, I can't imagine how bad a prequel to Casablanca would turn out 80 years down rhe road.

The mystery of Rick's past is perfectly unknown. As is Ilsa's. Great movies draw you in with details that aren't fully explained.

You can't put another brush stroke on the Mona Lisa. Casablanca is in the same vein.

I can't disagree, really. It is more a bemusement on my part--as you infer, the reality would be disappointing.

 

 

Also--to chemistry--yes, the Wayne & O'Hara chemistry was very very good.

[austingirl 2,192]

24 minutes ago, burntorangebongos said:

Bogie in African Queen and Key Largo can't be overstated as the very fine acting it was by a man in his element. 

Quiet Man is my favorite Wayne flick. Him and Maureen O'Hara should have fucked in real life back then, they were absolutely beautiful together. 

That's a great one. The other we watched all the time back in the day was Hatari!, which also gave the world the Baby Elephant Walk tune.

[NeverMarryAStripper 21,999]

I had dinner with Pilar Wayne at my mom’s house back in the 80s. She was a friend of one of my mom’s best friends.   I know csb.

[RPM 26,381]

8 hours ago, rage-a-holic said:

You sound unhinged and delusional.

 

Nice try. He could have easily left to serve, but gosh darn the studio won't let me. That's why John Ford treated Wayne like shit for years. I believe it was Robert Montgomery (also USNR) that finally talked Ford into backing off Wayne.

[Mrs Whiggins 13,050]

Related (not really but *shrugs*)--so last night we sat down and watched The Music Man on TCMs Oscar month celebration. Robert Preston, the lead, won a Tony award for the Broadway original of the show, and I imagine that show must have been something to see as the freedom of the stage likely showcased his talent to its best. Anyway....one of his other roles in film was Toddy, the gay performer, from the musical hit Victor/Victoria which garnered an Academy Award nomination in the Best Supporting Actor category (he lost to Louis Gossett, Jr. in An Officer And A Gentleman). I love Victor/Victoria as well and Julie Andrews and Preston interact marvelously together but what I didn't know was that after Pearl Harbor, Preston joined the Army Air Forces and served as an intelligence officer, stationed in Belgium.

Cool.

 

[Vito Andolini 9,135]

1 hour ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Related (not really but *shrugs*)--so last night we sat down and watched The Music Man on TCMs Oscar month celebration. Robert Preston, the lead, won a Tony award for the Broadway original of the show, and I imagine that show must have been something to see as the freedom of the stage likely showcased his talent to its best. Anyway....one of his other roles in film was Toddy, the gay performer, from the musical hit Victor/Victoria which garnered an Academy Award nomination in the Best Supporting Actor category (he lost to Louis Gossett, Jr. in An Officer And A Gentleman). I love Victor/Victoria as well and Julie Andrews and Preston interact marvelously together but what I didn't know was that after Pearl Harbor, Preston joined the Army Air Forces and served as an intelligence officer, stationed in Belgium.

Cool.

 

Ok, Mrs. Whiggins, which The Music Man cast member won the most Oscars? Too late! 

Spoiler

Ron(ny) Howard. 

 

[Bateshorn 9,942]

Bogie.  All day, all night. Many of his movies still hold up.

Wayne is fine, but he’s more mythos than actual acting chops, outside of maybe the Shootist. 

[WhatTheBuck 28,823]

On 3/17/2022 at 10:20 AM, baboso said:

The Coen brothers remake is head and shoulders above the original.  

No it’s not. It’s an extremely well-crafted movie. Very enjoyable. But the ending showed why the original didn’t stick to the ending in the book. The book’s ending was pretty anticlimactic. With all the remake’s technical superiority, I’d rather rewatch the original. 

[WhatTheBuck 28,823]

On 3/16/2022 at 11:13 PM, Kennythetiger said:

Mmmmm. Katherine Hepburn. I like the way she talked. 

Spencer Tracy was better than Bogie too. 

[MissingInAction 25,245]

On 3/17/2022 at 2:29 PM, msbesq said:

Wayne was a chicken shit and refused to even go overseas to entertain the troops during WWII, even after his close friend and mentor, John Ford begged him. Bogart served in the Navy during WWI. Wayne's birds of a feather--Ward Bond and Walter Brennan were racist and anti-Semitic. Marion looked good on a horse but he couldn't hold a candle to HB as an actor or as human being. HB was much more of an American icon. He and Bacall fought very publicly against HUAC, while Wayne embraced it.

Thank you. This will be ammo for me at the next family dinner.

[WhatTheBuck 28,823]

21 hours ago, twosheds said:

Maybe but he’s invisible

I am shocked that you would say that. Shocked, I say. He came close to taking over the English monarchy. And might have become President if not for that meddling Mr. Smith.

[Bateshorn 9,942]

31 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

No it’s not. It’s an extremely well-crafted movie. Very enjoyable. But the ending showed why the original didn’t stick to the ending in the book. The book’s ending was pretty anticlimactic. With all the remake’s technical superiority, I’d rather rewatch the original. 

This might be the single worst take on the Surl, today. Congrats, I guess?