We could use some prison reform

[F250 28659]

I know we're not going to get prison reform out of this administration but we really need prison reform. Check this story out.

http://nashvillepublicradio.org/post/he-heads-back-prison-nashville-man-says-goodbye-new-life-he-hoped-build#stream/0

"Charles had already served 21 years before his sentence was cut short as a result of crack guideline changes passed by the Obama administration. But the U.S. Attorney’s office appealed his release on the grounds that Charles was legally considered a “career offender” due to a prior stint in state prison. They said the retroactive change in the law did not apply to him — and a Court of Appeals agreed."

[Message Board User 12389]

Actually, the prison population has been dropping for many years, both nationwide and here in Texas - that inconvenient fact is just pretty much ignored by the media.  There are some states where the population is rising, but the most states are not doing business as usual.

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2018/05/18/maryland-leads-as-prison-populations-continue-to-decline

The one age demographic where the prison population is increasing are those over 55; just as in the non-incarcerated population, people are living longer and all the Baby Boomers getting old is putting a strain on finances.  Those over 55 are the most expensive offenders to house and care for (you wouldn't believe how many offenders in Texas are in wheelchairs, on dialysis, afflicted with dementia/alzheimers, have hep C) and there's no easy answer.  Most of those over 55 are incarcerated because of a heinous offense and should a rapist/child molester/murderer get an early release just because they are old?  Tough question.

 

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by Message Board User

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

The whole criminal justice system needs an overhaul.

No surprise, the Europeans are way ahead of us on dispensing justice and reducing recidivism.

[TwiceHorn 31184]

There is a fairly minor (minor in the sense that it doesn't do much, major in that it's the first non-punitive prison bill in 25 years or more) prison reform bill just passed the House overwhelmingly in the last couple of weeks.  Trumpy said he would sign it.

[TwiceHorn 31184]

30 minutes ago, Message Board User said:

Actually, the prison population has been dropping for many years, both nationwide and here in Texas - that inconvenient fact is just pretty much ignored by the media.  There are some states where the population is rising, but the most states are not doing business as usual.

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2018/05/18/maryland-leads-as-prison-populations-continue-to-decline

The one age demographic where the prison population is increasing are those over 55; just as in the non-incarcerated population, people are living longer and all the Baby Boomers getting old is putting a strain on finances.  Those over 55 are the most expensive offenders to house and care for (you wouldn't believe how many offenders in Texas are in wheelchairs, on dialysis, afflicted with dementia/alzheimers, have hep C) and there's no easy answer.  Most of those over 55 are incarcerated because of a heinous offense and should a rapist/child molester/murderer get an early release just because they are old?  Tough question.

 

 

The press doesn't ignore that.  Certain states, including Texas have been in the vanguard of prison and sentencing reform. But the fact still remains that even with the declines, we imprison more people, gross and per capita, than any nation on earth.  Any.  Nation. On.  Earth.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

Land of the free!

[TwiceHorn 31184]

Ive mentioned it several times before, but this is a fantastic blog for those following sentencing and criminal justice issues.  http://sentencing.typepad.com/

Occasionally it gets technical on the minutiae of federal sentencing, but day-in-day-out it has great "reporting" on issues and editorial content, both original and linked.

[maninblack 7974]

Ending the drug war and self driving cars will help out immensely.

[LongestHorn 759]

Jail, prison, parole, probation is around 7 million americans.  Has that number gone down?  Sure, but compare that number to 1980. 

[Hornius Emeritus 12403]

9 minutes ago, maninblack said:

Ending the drug war and self driving cars will help out immensely.

 

Perhaps, but who is going to profit from that?

[Guest]

stop breaking the law...

 

i know that's too simplistic... but holy fuck.  Seriously, is MJ that fucking great? Meth? Crack?

 

There are simple, yet very effective ways to avoid prison.

[Gatorubet 30064]

46 minutes ago, maninblack said:

Ending the drug war and self driving cars will help out immensely.

I see self driving cars as an opportunity for gang members to aim better.

[maninblack 7974]

I see it as a swift end to revenue collecting cops

[DixonHur 11074]

2 hours ago, Message Board User said:

Actually, the prison population has been dropping for many years, both nationwide and here in Texas

Interesting how the decline seems to have a direct correlation with the passage of the Obama Administration's Fair Sentencing Act.

[David Dennison 18608]

2 hours ago, slorch said:

stop breaking the law...

 

i know that's too simplistic... but holy fuck.  Seriously, is MJ that fucking great? Meth? Crack?

 

There are simple, yet very effective ways to avoid prison.

When was the last time you broke the law?

[GotThatFire 166]

All I know is that I sure do appreciate having criminals run rampant all over my city, with no fear of consequence. 

[SKJ 1305]

What we could use more than anything is post-conviction relief. By this, I am deviating from the standard use of the term by meaning, at some point, records need to go away in some manner.

As it stands now, your debt is never paid to society.

[GotThatFire 166]

Just now, SKJ said:

What we could use more than anything is post-conviction relief. By this, I am deviating from the standard use of the term by meaning, at some point, records need to go away in some manner.

As it stands now, your debt is never paid to society.

This should be an OP

[TwiceHorn 31184]

2 hours ago, DixonHur said:

Interesting how the decline seems to have a direct correlation with the passage of the Obama Administration's Fair Sentencing Act.

Meh.  There hasn't been anything federal that tended to reverse incarceration nation since we embarked on this path 30 some-odd years ago.  Obama talked a good game, but when push came to shove did little to nothing and has no better record on these issues than Bush (truth be told, Bush's is probably better).  The Holder charging memo (giving AUSA's more freedom to charge lesser offenses) had the potential to reduce a lot of incarceration, but wasn't in effect long enough.

 

The feds only account for <250k of the above.  But, there is substantial "leadership" from federal criminal policies (they dispense all that cash and MRAPs and shit).

 

The real effect is states like Texas that have seriously explored alternatives to incarceration, and California having to free a shit ton of prisoners for civil rights concerns.

Edited May 28, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[TwiceHorn 31184]

30 minutes ago, SKJ said:

What we could use more than anything is post-conviction relief. By this, I am deviating from the standard use of the term by meaning, at some point, records need to go away in some manner.

As it stands now, your debt is never paid to society.

Absolutely correct.  We have the most punitive prison sentences outside of Malaysia and yet we still saddle everyone with a shit ton of collateral consequences, even after making them pay, pay, pay.

[The People’s Elbow 707]

4 hours ago, slorch said:

stop breaking the law...

 

i know that's too simplistic... but holy fuck.  Seriously, is MJ that fucking great? Meth? Crack?

 

There are simple, yet very effective ways to avoid prison.

Slorch is Rocko? 

 

Rocko is Slorch?

[Guest]

4 hours ago, David Dennison said:

When was the last time you broke the law?

Today.

Speeding.

I can pay the fine if I get caught.

 

felony? Never.

drug possession? Never

assault?  never.

crime with a gun?  never.

 

Stop acting like it's so fucking hard or that crime is some communicable disease.  The approach is pure bullshit.

[RPM 26185]

4 hours ago, David Dennison said:

When was the last time you broke the law?

Starting now? Now.

[SKJ 1305]

9 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Meh.  There hasn't been anything federal that tended to reverse incarceration nation since we embarked on this path 30 some-odd years ago.  Obama talked a good game, but when push came to shove did little to nothing and has no better record on these issues than Bush (truth be told, Bush's is probably better).  The Holder charging memo (giving AUSA's more freedom to charge lesser offenses) had the potential to reduce a lot of incarceration, but wasn't in effect long enough.

 

The feds only account for <250k of the above.  But, there is substantial "leadership" from federal criminal policies (they dispense all that cash and MRAPs and shit).

 

The real effect is states like Texas that have seriously explored alternatives to incarceration, and California having to free a shit ton of prisoners for civil rights concerns.

Well, I personally know 2 people that had effective life sentences that got out because Obama. 

That's how crazy it was with the 9:1

[TwiceHorn 31184]

31 minutes ago, SKJ said:

Well, I personally know 2 people that had effective life sentences that got out because Obama. 

That's how crazy it was with the 9:1

That's fair. It did finally get passed under Obama, but it wasn't an Obama policy. Fucking Sessions sponsored it. 

 

That is the single thing done in the past 30 years. 

[RayDog 682]

An acquaintance of mine who is a  reverend who worked at del Valle (regulars from The Draught House may know who I am talking about) thinks that 98% if criminals should not be incarcerated.

He argues against:

Drug possession should lead to treatment rather than incarceration. 

Crimes committed to buy drugs should also be treated. 

Minorities, the under represented, and those with communication difficulties who would have received lesser penalties if they were wealthy whites  should be treated fairly.

Those who committed one off crimes of opportunity or passion, that are not likely to be repeated  should not be sentenced like career criminals.

I am sure he had more categories. He was writing a book (or two) but I do not  know if he published one yet.

I would like to think that his ideas about people in local jails are correct.

 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13391]

I think the entire monetary bail system should be removed or severely cut.  Too many people do not have the money to pay bond, which forces them to stay in jail.  Reports are that upwards of 70% of arrestees have a job, so the chances of them losing the job is now 100%, when they can't post bail.  Many ultimately plead guilty for a sentence of time served just to get out.    Bail forces poor people to stay in jail regardless if they're guilty or not.  Or it places financial hardship on the person's family to come up with the money (i.e. visit to the payday lender.)    All the while, this is a person that hasn't been found guilty of anything.

The bail system operates on the notion that a person will return to court to get their money back.  However very few people get any money back because they utilized a bail bondsman, who gets their down payment (10% or whatever) as the fee.   

Instead a better system would be one where most arrestees, the non-violent offenses,  are released on their own recognizance unless they have a record of not returning to court.  Obviously violent arrestees (murder, rape, terrorism, etc.) should not be released if they are deemed to be a violent threat to the community.   And perhaps allow some discretion for bail in cases where someone has a high likelihood of running.

Like most, I think the majority of people arrested are guilty of that crime or something else.  I'm not trying to make it worthwhile for them to commit a crime and not serve time.  But I would rather see the system put them in jail/prison once they're deemed guilty instead of when they're arrested.      

And one of the best benefits is this lowers the need for larger jail systems, saving the taxpayer $$$.

[DixonHur 11074]

I'll just put this here...

Black Defendants Get Longer Sentences From Republican-Appointed Judges, Study Finds

Shocked I tell you.

[Fudge Nuggets 19118]

18 hours ago, RayDog said:

An acquaintance of mine who is a  reverend who worked at del Valle (regulars from The Draught House may know who I am talking about) thinks that 98% if criminals should not be incarcerated.

He argues against:

Drug possession should lead to treatment rather than incarceration. 

Crimes committed to buy drugs should also be treated. 

Minorities, the under represented, and those with communication difficulties who would have received lesser penalties if they were wealthy whites  should be treated fairly.

Those who committed one off crimes of opportunity or passion, that are not likely to be repeated  should not be sentenced like career criminals.

I am sure he had more categories. He was writing a book (or two) but I do not  know if he published one yet.

I would like to think that his ideas about people in local jails are correct.

 

[Tom 2959]

On 5/28/2018 at 1:51 AM, slorch said:

Today.

Speeding.

I can pay the fine if I get caught.

 

felony? Never.

drug possession? Never

assault?  never.

crime with a gun?  never.

 

Stop acting like it's so fucking hard or that crime is some communicable disease.  The approach is pure bullshit.

 

It's possible to both recognize that you shouldn't break the law and you should be prepared for consequences if you choose to AND recognize that our justice system is completely broken, inhumane, ineffective, and needs reform.  Especially when our drug laws are just damn stupid and make no sense.

 

There are also plenty of innocent people in prison.  Plenty of innocent people have also been given the death penalty but exonerated later by DNA evidence.  How does your "just don't do anything wrong and you don't have to worry about it" policy work out for them?

Edited May 29, 2018 by Tom

[Tom 2959]

On 5/28/2018 at 2:08 AM, RPM said:

Starting now? Now.

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Tom said:

 

It's possible to both recognize that you shouldn't break the law and you should be prepared for consequences if you choose to AND recognize that our justice system is completely broken, inhumane, ineffective, and needs reform.  Especially when our drug laws are just damn stupid and make no sense.

 

There are also plenty of innocent people in prison.  Plenty of innocent people have also been given the death penalty but exonerated later by DNA evidence.  How does your "just don't do anything wrong and you don't have to worry about it" policy work out for them?

1. The criminal justice system is not perfect.  I did not claim it was.  Are you suggesting our world is Shawshank, and nobody ever committed a crime?

2. IDGAF about your opinion on the validity of drug laws.  I have posted repeatedly in support of legalization of marijuana.  HOWEVER, if you know it is illegal, don't be around the shit.  Period. Yes, IT IS THIS GOTDAM SIMPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3. If you think drug crimes are limited to simple possession of some MJ, you are lying your ass off to yourself.

 

Edited May 29, 2018 by slorch

[DixonHur 11074]

On 5/28/2018 at 1:51 AM, slorch said:

Today.

Speeding.

I can pay the fine if I get caught.

Part of the problem is that punishments often don't fit the objective significance of the crime.  Why does drug possession result in jail/prison, while speeding is a fine?  Are you not more likely to hurt someone while speeding than you are by having an 8 ball in your pocket?

[TwiceHorn 31184]

1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

Part of the problem is that punishments often don't fit the objective significance of the crime.  Why does drug possession result in jail/prison, while speeding is a fine?  Are you not more likely to hurt someone while speeding than you are by having an 8 ball in your pocket?

Oh, indeed.  How many things in law do we do just the same way as we did 150 years ago?

 

Criminal law lends itself to simplistic and polarized thinking.  It can be expected from the electorate, but our lawdogs really need to do better.

[CooterBrown 17875]

Get rid of the "have you ever been convicted of a crime" check box on job applications.  If you've done your time, your debt is paid and your ability to move past it shouldn't be hampered.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

52 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

Get rid of the "have you ever been convicted of a crime" check box on job applications.  If you've done your time, your debt is paid and your ability to move past it shouldn't be hampered.

While I agree this should be removed from applications, employers should still be within their right to do independent criminal background checks prior to employment.

If you’re running a day care, you’d probably want to make sure you don’t hire a convicted pedophile. 

[SKJ 1305]

Fuck that.

Only shit that should show up is if it's directly linked to your crime.

Pedo/daycare

Fraud/bank

But I'm even against that. The fucking system is completely retarded that you can do more and more time, then also probation/parole, but then you still can't find a fucking good job or live in an apartment.

That shit comes up so much it even becomes a part of an insurance claim. They even use it against you to settle

[TwiceHorn 31184]

33 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

While I agree this should be removed from applications, employers should still be within their right to do independent criminal background checks prior to employment.

If you’re running a day care, you’d probably want to make sure you don’t hire a convicted pedophile. 

This kind of exemplifies the problem.  There is no such thing as a "convicted pedophile."  Sure, there are those convicted of child sexual offenses, but I'm not sure the general population is qualified to extrapolate from that that the person in question is or remains a danger to children.  Child sexual offenses are not the best example, but it applies across the board.  A theft-y conviction, even a misdemeanor, disqualifies people from all sorts of employment and professional licensing.  Some of that is as it should be, some is not.

 

I'm not sure how you manage it, but letting laypeople draw conclusions about someone's criminal record strikes me as kind of a hazardous business.  And as SKJ notes, the aggregate effect of it all is to absolutely, completely ruin people's lives, forever, with almost no hope for redemption.  That ain't right.

 

And worse, it virtually guarantees return to a life of crime.

Edited May 29, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[F250 28659]

34 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

This kind of exemplifies the problem.  There is no such thing as a "convicted pedophile."  Sure, there are those convicted of child sexual offenses, but I'm not sure the general population is qualified to extrapolate from that that the person in question is or remains a danger to children.  Child sexual offenses are not the best example, but it applies across the board.  A theft-y conviction, even a misdemeanor, disqualifies people from all sorts of employment and professional licensing.  Some of that is as it should be, some is not.

 

I'm not sure how you manage it, but letting laypeople draw conclusions about someone's criminal record strikes me as kind of a hazardous business.  And as SKJ notes, the aggregate effect of it all is to absolutely, completely ruin people's lives, forever, with almost no hope for redemption.  That ain't right.

 

And worse, it virtually guarantees return to a life of crime.

Good post, that's some Jean Valjean shit right there.

 

[elfenix 34168]

On 5/28/2018 at 9:44 AM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I think the entire monetary bail system should be removed or severely cut.  Too many people do not have the money to pay bond, which forces them to stay in jail.  Reports are that upwards of 70% of arrestees have a job, so the chances of them losing the job is now 100%, when they can't post bail.  Many ultimately plead guilty for a sentence of time served just to get out.    Bail forces poor people to stay in jail regardless if they're guilty or not.  Or it places financial hardship on the person's family to come up with the money (i.e. visit to the payday lender.)    All the while, this is a person that hasn't been found guilty of anything.

The bail system operates on the notion that a person will return to court to get their money back.  However very few people get any money back because they utilized a bail bondsman, who gets their down payment (10% or whatever) as the fee.   

Instead a better system would be one where most arrestees, the non-violent offenses,  are released on their own recognizance unless they have a record of not returning to court.  Obviously violent arrestees (murder, rape, terrorism, etc.) should not be released if they are deemed to be a violent threat to the community.   And perhaps allow some discretion for bail in cases where someone has a high likelihood of running.

Like most, I think the majority of people arrested are guilty of that crime or something else.  I'm not trying to make it worthwhile for them to commit a crime and not serve time.  But I would rather see the system put them in jail/prison once they're deemed guilty instead of when they're arrested.      

And one of the best benefits is this lowers the need for larger jail systems, saving the taxpayer $$$.

 

there's a charitable bail fund in NY that pays people's bail (small dollar figures, almost everything is under $1,000), has a 95% court appearance rate, and a much higher rate of non-guilty outcomes as well:

 

https://www.marketplace.org/2018/04/24/business/make-me-smart-kai-and-molly/60-great-lie-heart-criminal-justice-system

Edited May 29, 2018 by elfenix

[Brisketexan 104465]

People like that reform.  We should get us some.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

I’d like prison to be largely for violent criminals. Give an option for those who commit property crimes to avoid prison so long as they work and pay a sizeable percentage of their income in restitution.  

[Macanudo 12922]

I've long thought that some kind CCC/WPA program would be a great thing for non-violent offenders, especially the young.   Why not put them to work, team some real skills and get the ready for finding a good paying job?    The CCC was instrumental in building out a lot of the National Park infrastructure in the 30's.   It's hard work but why not?  If someone is gicen the choice between jail time and work, wouldn't some people probably choose the work?

[fattyflattie 4636]

3 hours ago, SKJ said:

Fuck that.

Only shit that should show up is if it's directly linked to your crime.

Pedo/daycare

Fraud/bank

But I'm even against that. The fucking system is completely retarded that you can do more and more time, then also probation/parole, but then you still can't find a fucking good job or live in an apartment.

That shit comes up so much it even becomes a part of an insurance claim. They even use it against you to settle

This especially fucks the people that were forced to commit crimes.  All those criminals that had no other choice. 

[staboner 4955]

i have a serious question for you guys wanting reform (on this or anything)

how do you actually think that is going to happen? 

[pacman 7309]

On 5/27/2018 at 6:28 PM, slorch said:

stop breaking the law...

 

i know that's too simplistic... but holy fuck.  Seriously, is MJ that fucking great? Meth? Crack?

 

There are simple, yet very effective ways to avoid prison.

That's not the issue. The issue with our prison system are those handing out punishments, and those investigating crimes, are given incentives to solve quickly (not accurately) and hand out harsh sentences. The issue is our justice system, from top to bottom, isn't colorblind.

[SKJ 1305]

18 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

This especially fucks the people that were forced to commit crimes.  All those criminals that had no other choice. 

I mean it's not like we have any data on what leads to crime in many if not most cases.

And it's not like we have any data on recidivism, and could guess how the lingering effects of these policies contributes to it.

Or you could just be permanently marked for your life's mistakes for all time because, you know, people never change and are generally perfect.

Or you could go fuck yourself because more often than not people without criminal records we either wealthy or lucky...

[Guest]

6 hours ago, DixonHur said:

Part of the problem is that punishments often don't fit the objective significance of the crime.  Why does drug possession result in jail/prison, while speeding is a fine?  Are you not more likely to hurt someone while speeding than you are by having an 8 ball in your pocket?

Try getting a citation for not chang8ng the address on your DL...  That sumbeech hurts.

 

Again, with regard to drug laws- know what’s at stake.  Is having an 8ball worth a trip to prison? Do you think people getting busted with pot or meth are unaware of the possible sanctions, not that ignorance justifies anything.

[fattyflattie 4636]

59 minutes ago, SKJ said:

Or you could just be permanently marked for your life's mistakes for all time because, you know, people never change and are generally perfect.

Or you could go fuck yourself because more often than not people without criminal records we either wealthy or lucky...

While we are getting video game do-overs, I don’t think employers should be able to ask where I matriculated or in what discipline, either. I mean, an engineering degree would be tremendously better for my career path; I shouldn’t be held responsible for going finance instead.  Unfortunately people make decisions, and are held to them.  

Luck - I don’t think you know what that means. This board isnt full of “lucky” people who've spent their lives robbing, raping, and murdering people.  Most people go thru life avoiding crime so they don’t have to deal with the shit that comes along with it - prison time and shit employment.  

You don’t get marked for life for being caught with a small sack of weed, being drunk at a ball game, or even a DUI. You get “marked for life” for causing pain to other members of society. It’s supposed to be deterrent to shitheels who can’t follow common societal norms. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, SKJ said:

 

Or you could go fuck yourself because more often than not people without criminal records we either wealthy or lucky...

I am neither.

But let’s qualify that criminal record.  Are you saying a felony or any jailable offense?

By saying what you said, you are contending that virtually everyone in ‘regular’ society has committed one or more of these offenses.  That’s just pure bullshit.

On our background checks on frontline, entry level employees it’s about 1 in 20 or greater that come back with any criminal arrests.  Most of the time it’s either a theft by check/ credit card or a DUI, both of which make them unhireable for us.  That labor pool for those positions is 60% minority too.

Not everyone is helpless against drugs.  I get tired of hearing that shit.

Edited May 29, 2018 by slorch